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View Full Version : D&D 5e/Next Improved Combat: Momentum System(PEACH, WIP)



demonslayerelf
2018-02-24, 07:29 PM
It's been a while since I updated this idea, so here it is. The basic concept hasn't changed; All characters have 1 momentum, and all "Extra Attack" class features are replaced with "+1 Momentum" features, which follow the same rule as the "Extra Attack" stuff; Only the fighter gets more than one.

Certain other class features also get changed;
Monk: Martial Arts and FoB change to give the monk momentum which they may only use for "Athletics" and "Acrobatics" techniques.
Barbarian: Berserkers can use their bonus action for 1 momentum they can only use for "Athletics" techniques.
Rogues get to spend 1 momentum on a large number of techniques, but they are counted as spending a larger amount(1/2 the proficiency modifier associated with their rogue level).

I'm not including all of them, since I don't have all of them typed out.

A few other semi-important things:
Technique Progression:
Basic Techniques are available to all
Simple Techniques are available to 5th level and higher
Advanced Techniques are available to 11th level and higher
Expert Techniques are available to 17th level and higher

4 New Conditions;
Choked(Can't breathe/speak), Crippled(Broken Limbs or Spine, they have predictable effects), Dazed(1 Fewer Momentum, No Reactions, Disadvantage on Dex Saves), and Wounded(Half healing until you recover enough health to heal the wound, or actively bleeding out(1d4 bleed damage each turn, for each bleeding wound).

New Damage Types:
Bleed(Self Explanatory), Stress(Being pulled apart)

New Breathing Rule:
You have to maintain concentration on holding your breath.

Anyway, no more jaw wagging, here they are:

List of Techniques (https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/HyxsWKkOf)

They aren't all completed, they aren't set in stone, and the list is nowhere near done. This is an early preview.

All feedback is appreciated.

Argothair
2018-02-26, 03:48 AM
It looks cool. I like the core mechanic of using "momentum" points to either make attacks or perform various aggressive techniques. Keeping track of momentum points (or action points) sounds like more fun than trying to track extra attacks, bonus actions, and dual-wielding.

I also like the idea of saying that certain classes can only use their bonus momentum on certain types of techniques, e.g. Barbarians are forced into Athletic techniques. Raging to get a bonus Athletic technique is way more thematic than raging to get a bonus attack. Conan the Barbarian totally *would* hit you with his axe and then pick you up and throw you to the ground. Totally his style.

I'd like to see a cleaner distinction in your techniques between the Athletics skill and the Acrobatics skill. E.g. if I can block almost any attack with my choice of Athletics or Acrobatics, does it really matter which is which? Even your Acrobatics section instructs the attacker to make an "athletics" check to disarm his opponent. Maybe that's just a typo.

I'm also confused about the rules for Simple vs. Advanced vs. Expert Techniques. Is that just flavor? Or is there some limitation on who can use an advanced or expert technique? Likewise, who gets access to tactical and cunning techniques? Fighters and Rogues? It's not clear. I feel like maybe I'm missing part of your ruleset.

Finally, I'd urge you to stick with techniques that have a more-or-less mundane physical explanation, like slam and throw and dodge and disarm. "Meteor smash" sounds cool and I guess it works fine in the right type of video game, but in D&D that sort of thing should really be a magic spell, not a martial technique. Necrotic damage from straining your muscles? Throwing an angry troll 40 feet in the air? Martial classes need more interesting and more varied tactical options, so I'm really glad you're providing them, but if you go too far then it starts to sound like magic.

Lalliman
2018-02-26, 11:35 AM
I like the ideas presented here, but the execution is far too complex for my liking. That's personal preference though, so I won't focus on that.

As Argo said, the distinction between the different types of techniques is weird and unintuitive. Sweep, for example, is listed as athletic but doesn't use an Athletics check; you could resolve it with Dexterity by using a finesse weapon. Disarm is acrobatic, but doesnít use Acrobatics. Perhaps the problem is purely semantical and you could fix it by renaming the categories? Strong and agile? Hard and soft?

Defer is weird to me. It seems that saving your momentum for a subsequent round and expending your momentum to get extra reactions should be two different actions entirely. It seems annoying to have them inseparably tied, and I don't really see any mechanical or thematic reason for why it would be this way.

Likewise, I think ignoring the effects of terrain should be separate from disengaging. You've already buffed disengaging by making it cost one attack instead of your whole action. It doesn't need to be even better. Thematically speaking, it bugs me that this allows literally anyone to weave through hordes of opponents who are standing on difficult terrain at full speed without reprisal.

I like the idea of Blade Press, but the fact that the damage is not dependent on your weapon means that it's vastly better with small weapons than large ones. If you're using a dagger, you'll always use Blade Press instead of making another attack, because it deals the same damage except guaranteed. If you're using a greatsword, using Blade Press is a trade-off: you get guaranteed damage, but it's about five points less than you would get with a new attack. This is, thematically speaking, the opposite of what you would expect. Perhaps a way to fix this is to have Blade Press deal damage equal to your weapon damage die, without ability score modifier?

Why is Throw based on the targetís hit dice? Hit dice donít mean anything in this edition; a creature has as many hit dice as the developers needed to give them to hit the intended amount of HP. Thereís certainly no connection to how heavy they are. Should be an opposed roll as usual.

The fact that Crippling Strike will blind someone for basically the whole fight (5 rounds at 1st level, 9 rounds by 10th) is insane. Itís admittedly hard to pull off because of the save DC will be pretty modest*, but even so this is far too swingy. It's the kind of save-or-die ability that even casters rarely get.

(* As an aside, how do these ďDC = damage dealtĒ abilities combine with Divine Smite or Sneak Attack?)

For Kayo Strike, how will you determine whether you are behind the target or not? And is there a reason for the convoluted damage roll?

Thatís all for now.

demonslayerelf
2018-02-26, 09:08 PM
I'd like to see a cleaner distinction in your techniques between the Athletics skill and the Acrobatics skill. E.g. if I can block almost any attack with my choice of Athletics or Acrobatics, does it really matter which is which? Even your Acrobatics section instructs the attacker to make an "athletics" check to disarm his opponent. Maybe that's just a typo.

As Argo said, the distinction between the different types of techniques is weird and unintuitive. Sweep, for example, is listed as athletic but doesn't use an Athletics check; you could resolve it with Dexterity by using a finesse weapon. Disarm is acrobatic, but doesnít use Acrobatics. Perhaps the problem is purely semantical and you could fix it by renaming the categories? Strong and agile? Hard and soft?

I'm still hammering that all out. I guess my original thought was "Strong, Quick, Mental, Emotional," but I wanted better wording for it. It's a bit of an oversimplification, but I figured it would help distinguish who would be using the techniques.

So it's not so much that they hinge on the "Athletics" or "Acrobatics" skills(There aren't the "Tactical" or "Cunning" skills, after all), but on the concept of using strength or speed, respectively.


I'm also confused about the rules for Simple vs. Advanced vs. Expert Techniques. Is that just flavor? Or is there some limitation on who can use an advanced or expert technique? Likewise, who gets access to tactical and cunning techniques? Fighters and Rogues? It's not clear. I feel like maybe I'm missing part of your ruleset.
Well, you are missing some of the ruleset, as I don't have it all typed out yet. I'm basically going to say that they progress like Cantrips. Basic techniques until level 5, Simple until 11, Advanced until 17, then Expert. Of course, not all classes get access to all of them. Might have a feat for that.

Everyone can use the Basic ones, and Fighters have access to all of them. Barbs will get Athletic and perhaps Acrobatic or Cunning. Rangers and Rogues get Acrobatic, and maybe Tactical or Cunning. Pally's are in the same situation as Barbs. Monks will get Athletic and Acrobatic. Wizards get Tactical, Bards, Sorcerers, and Warlocks get Cunning, Clerics and Druids get something based on subclass.
Speaking of subclasses, those will effect things. A bladesinger, for instance, will get Acrobatic as well as Tactical.

Multiclassing is weird with this, though, so I'll use an example. A Fighter 8, Barbarian 3. Barbarians have access to Athletic, but not the others, so they add 3 to their level for determining what "tier" of athletic techniques they get. Fighters get all of them, so they add 8 to their level for all 4 of them. They're above 5 for all techniques, so they can use Simple techniques, but they're only 11 for Athletic techniques, so they can also use Advanced Athletic Techniques.


Finally, I'd urge you to stick with techniques that have a more-or-less mundane physical explanation, like slam and throw and dodge and disarm. "Meteor smash" sounds cool and I guess it works fine in the right type of video game, but in D&D that sort of thing should really be a magic spell, not a martial technique. Necrotic damage from straining your muscles? Throwing an angry troll 40 feet in the air? Martial classes need more interesting and more varied tactical options, so I'm really glad you're providing them, but if you go too far then it starts to sound like magic.
I'll keep that in mind, but that stuff's in the Expert region for a reason. When you get that powerful, you're going to be doing crazy stuff anyway. You've just trained that much, and you're just that strong, by the time you reach these things.

Think of it this way. You've probably never seen a real person who you would consider above 7th or so level, and even they already do crazy stuff. Jackie Chan, Mayweather, historical figures, etc. have done crazy stuff, fully IRL. Doing that as a (I assume) 1st or 2nd level character(Just roll with it), you see those things and say that's impossible and there has to be a trick or magic. But, a 1st level wizard seeing a 10th level wizard cast Blight seems totally beyond reason, even assuming magic exists.

It's kinda like that; There's no trick, you've just gotten fit enough, worked out so much, and trained enough that you can throw something 30 feet up, jump after it, and throw it back down. That's how I think of it, anyway. If more people say something I'll change it, but it's a kinda "Eh" thing right now.


Defer is weird to me. It seems that saving your momentum for a subsequent round and expending your momentum to get extra reactions should be two different actions entirely. It seems annoying to have them inseparably tied, and I don't really see any mechanical or thematic reason for why it would be this way.
I was just thinking of it as the "Prepare yourself" action. You'll do a bit better next round, but you're also just a little more prepared to handle things before that next round. I could change it to two things, but (As above), it's just kinda "Eh" to do it.


Likewise, I think ignoring the effects of terrain should be separate from disengaging. You've already buffed disengaging by making it cost one attack instead of your whole action. It doesn't need to be even better. Thematically speaking, it bugs me that this allows literally anyone to weave through hordes of opponents who are standing on difficult terrain at full speed without reprisal.
In my mind, it's just that you're going to move carefully. It used to be a bit more finicky with expending 1 momentum to ignore 5 feet of damaging terrain(That's a typo btw, it shouldn't be "Negative", it should be "Damaging". I'll fix it.) and 2 attacks of opportunity, and you can spend more momentum to scale it, but I figured it wouldn't matter so much. You think that it would mess with things to have it like that?


I like the idea of Blade Press, but the fact that the damage is not dependent on your weapon means that it's vastly better with small weapons than large ones. If you're using a dagger, you'll always use Blade Press instead of making another attack, because it deals the same damage except guaranteed. If you're using a greatsword, using Blade Press is a trade-off: you get guaranteed damage, but it's about five points less than you would get with a new attack. This is, thematically speaking, the opposite of what you would expect. Perhaps a way to fix this is to have Blade Press deal damage equal to your weapon damage die, without ability score modifier?
I think that's a wonderful comment, point, and solution. Though, only a fool uses a dagger with strength, but that's not the point. If you don't mind, I will be stealing- I mean "using" this. :)


Why is Throw based on the targetís hit dice? Hit dice donít mean anything in this edition; a creature has as many hit dice as the developers needed to give them to hit the intended amount of HP. Thereís certainly no connection to how heavy they are. Should be an opposed roll as usual.
I think I meant to change that to something about their constitution and forgot to actually do it X(

It shouldn't be an opposed roll, though. They've already grappled the person, what's the person going to do about it? They'll struggle, but if they've already got grabbed, there's nothing effective to do about getting thrown.


The fact that Crippling Strike will blind someone for basically the whole fight (5 rounds at 1st level, 9 rounds by 10th) is insane. Itís admittedly hard to pull off because of the save DC will be pretty modest*, but even so this is far too swingy. It's the kind of save-or-die ability that even casters rarely get.
That ability should have a "Repeat the saving throw" effect to it, my mistake for not including it.

That said, it occurs to me that I never posted what the "Cripple" or "Daze" effects are, since that's on a different document. Crippled legs, unless you have 5 or more which aren't crippled, halve your move speed for each one crippled. Crippled arms give disadvantage for using the arm, and reduce carrying capacity. Daze removes 1 point of momentum each turn, and gives disadvantage on dexterity saving throws.


(* As an aside, how do these ďDC = damage dealtĒ abilities combine with Divine Smite or Sneak Attack?)
It's weapon damage, so Sneak Attack does apply, but something like Smite or Tenser's wouldn't do anything special for the DC. GWM and SS also don't apply, because f*ck that. That means Sneak Attack can get it pretty high, but rogues also have 1 momentum, so they wouldn't be able to do much with that. A bit of multiclassing might be interesting, but you'd then be giving up momentum(Or just reducing a number of other things, like the level you get access to techniques.)


For Kayo Strike, how will you determine whether you are behind the target or not? And is there a reason for the convoluted damage roll?
Looking back, it occurs to me that 5e doesn't have a rule for directions. I will remove that bit.

The damage is a little screwy because I wanted to represent the fact that instantly knocking someone out takes both skill and strength, but is also relatively hard to do. Also when I made the ability, I was concerned with Rogue-Bob knocking out Tiamat turn after turn and everyone kicking her to death. (Honestly, they should have just hired a bunch of wizards to cast Magic Missile. //Joke) I guess those things don't matter anymore, though, so I should probably just switch it back to DC=Damage Dealt.

demonslayerelf
2018-03-10, 11:06 PM
Partial Bump, Partial Update

Meteor Smash and a couple other techniques have been removed, while others, like Nott's Horrific Screech, have been others. If that sounds like a spell, it's not, but it's a real treat to Critters.

Several techniques have been changed based on suggestions(Mostly IRL).

The OP was updated to include a handful of rules I didn't include in the page.

Anyway, Feedback is always appreciated, hope y'all like this stuff :P

thegreatone5224
2018-03-11, 11:08 PM
This looks like a lot of fun and if I can convince other players in my group to give it a whirl I'll let you know what we find through playing.