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Corinath
2018-02-26, 08:02 PM
Yes, I know, Sage Advice said this isn't a thing. I'd like to make it a thing, if possible. Rule zero? :)

BG: I'm the DM for a game. A player is asking me about this. They love the class fantasy of both druids (kitty!) and rogues (Kill things fast!), and were looking for a way to combine the two. I'm obviously all about balance, even though no one really fills this role in the next campaign.

My thoughts: She'd keep Moon Druid as her class / subclass chassis, but would lose spell casting down to Arcane Trickster progression. In return, she'd pick up Sneak Attack, on the contingency that the animal shifted into attacked with Dex or had something like Pack Tactics.

Does this sound reasonable? Is there something else I should consider, like creating a new circle and stealing the Assassin chassis?

Thanks!

Morphic tide
2018-02-26, 09:41 PM
I'd either make it a Wildshape Ranger subclass that evokes the old Feral Druids of WoW (higher Con than Dex on the form and you get to tank instead of damage via some form of damage mitigation effect similar to SA, other way around and it's doing damage while relatively squishy off the same scaling values), or a Rogue sublclass for Wildshape and minor Druidic spellcasting. That's if you go for the lower magic progression.

As a Druid subclass, you work out a feature that lets you gain benefits similar to Sneak Attack (conditional bonus damage reliably triggered by stealth), then build around it, such as getting trips or another Advantage-triggering ability to more reliably get the bonus damage.

Crisis21
2018-02-27, 01:25 AM
So, if I'm understanding this correctly, you basically want to drop 2/3 of the Druid's spellcasting class feature to pick up equivalent Rogue class features? That's gonna be a pain to balance.


So, Wildshape Sneak Attack, eh? Well, for one thing it shouldn't be as good a progression as a pure Rogue. Just saying. Maybe 1d6 Sneak Attack die at level 1 and gain an additional one at every 4th level afterwards (so +1d6 Sneak Attack at 5th, 9th, 13th, and 17th level), at best. These Sneak Attack die are only available in Wildshape and the Wildshape form must be a creature that does not have disadvantage on Stealth. All other Sneak Attack conditions and restrictions apply (see Rogue class for details).

Other possibilities to pick up from the Rogue class for your player's Wildshape if this seems underpowered: Uncanny Dodge (half damage from one attack you can see each round), Evasion (no damage on a successful DEX save, half damage on a failed DEX save), Blindsense (you don't have disadvantage when you can't see, can detect invisible creatures, etc.). Again, standard conditions and restrictions apply (see Rogue class for details).


Alternatively, what you could do is take the Arcane Trickster archetype for the Rogue class and re-tool it to be more Druid-like. Wildshape Trickster maybe? Definitely a focus on Wildshape shenanigans rather than Mage Hand shenanigans. Yes, it would mean changing up the entire class your player is playing, but it might be much easier to balance than retooling the Druid. After all, you'd just be changing an Archetype rather than a core class.

...Heck, I might do that myself. It sounds kind of fun.


Edit: Of course, the absolute easiest thing to do would be to have your player just multiclass Druid/Rogue.

clash
2018-02-27, 08:47 AM
I second the idea of multiclassing druid and rogue and just allowing sneak attack to work when wildshaped and using dex to attack. Nothing breaks. Alternatively it sounds like you want a rogue subclass that can wildshape. You could homebrew something like that.

Corinath
2018-02-27, 11:57 AM
I'd either make it a Wildshape Ranger subclass that evokes the old Feral Druids of WoW (higher Con than Dex on the form and you get to tank instead of damage via some form of damage mitigation effect similar to SA, other way around and it's doing damage while relatively squishy off the same scaling values), or a Rogue sublclass for Wildshape and minor Druidic spellcasting. That's if you go for the lower magic progression.

As a Druid subclass, you work out a feature that lets you gain benefits similar to Sneak Attack (conditional bonus damage reliably triggered by stealth), then build around it, such as getting trips or another Advantage-triggering ability to more reliably get the bonus damage.

Yeah I hadn't considered just inventing a new damage type or something to that effect, that's a great thought as well. :)


So, if I'm understanding this correctly, you basically want to drop 2/3 of the Druid's spellcasting class feature to pick up equivalent Rogue class features? That's gonna be a pain to balance.


So, Wildshape Sneak Attack, eh? Well, for one thing it shouldn't be as good a progression as a pure Rogue. Just saying. Maybe 1d6 Sneak Attack die at level 1 and gain an additional one at every 4th level afterwards (so +1d6 Sneak Attack at 5th, 9th, 13th, and 17th level), at best. These Sneak Attack die are only available in Wildshape and the Wildshape form must be a creature that does not have disadvantage on Stealth. All other Sneak Attack conditions and restrictions apply (see Rogue class for details).

Other possibilities to pick up from the Rogue class for your player's Wildshape if this seems underpowered: Uncanny Dodge (half damage from one attack you can see each round), Evasion (no damage on a successful DEX save, half damage on a failed DEX save), Blindsense (you don't have disadvantage when you can't see, can detect invisible creatures, etc.). Again, standard conditions and restrictions apply (see Rogue class for details).


Alternatively, what you could do is take the Arcane Trickster archetype for the Rogue class and re-tool it to be more Druid-like. Wildshape Trickster maybe? Definitely a focus on Wildshape shenanigans rather than Mage Hand shenanigans. Yes, it would mean changing up the entire class your player is playing, but it might be much easier to balance than retooling the Druid. After all, you'd just be changing an Archetype rather than a core class.

...Heck, I might do that myself. It sounds kind of fun.


Edit: Of course, the absolute easiest thing to do would be to have your player just multiclass Druid/Rogue.

So a home-brew like this is pretty out of my depth normally, mind if I ask why it shouldn't be as good as a rogue?

In my head, I'd considered the core stat block aspects as balanced. I.E., Sneak Attack, Spell Slots, Class Resources. If the Rogue is balanced with itself, and can have sneak attack with it's limited spell casting, then couldn't the Druid/Rogue have sneak attack with it's spell casting as well?

Edit: Am I not considering wild shape as a resource adequately as a part of the balance maybe? Hrmm...

All that being said I think you're definitely onto something in this direction. Thank you. :)


I second the idea of multiclassing druid and rogue and just allowing sneak attack to work when wildshaped and using dex to attack. Nothing breaks. Alternatively it sounds like you want a rogue subclass that can wildshape. You could homebrew something like that.

Yeah maybe that is what I'm leaning toward. It literally feels like that to me, and the rogue chassis may be better to start it off of. You're all making good points here.

Crisis21
2018-02-27, 12:15 PM
So a home-brew like this is pretty out of my depth normally, mind if I ask why it shouldn't be as good as a rogue?

In my head, I'd considered the core stat block aspects as balanced. I.E., Sneak Attack, Spell Slots, Class Resources. If the Rogue is balanced with itself, and can have sneak attack with it's limited spell casting, then couldn't the Druid/Rogue have sneak attack with it's spell casting as well?

Edit: Am I not considering wild shape as a resource adequately as a part of the balance maybe? Hrmm...

All that being said I think you're definitely onto something in this direction. Thank you. :)



The issue of balance is mostly due to trying to trade Spellcasting for Sneak Attack. One may not necessarily be equal to the other, especially when other class features are taken into account. Rogues with spellcasting is balanced on a 1/3 caster progression as evidenced with Arcane Trickster, but adding Rogue Sneak Attack onto another class is something that has not been done by WotC at this point. It's an inherent and exclusive part of the Rogue class and I'm not sure how to balance just adding it to another class really. It might be done as a special Rogue-themed archetype, but I'm not sure how to balance it with a full caster (Sneak Attack Spells? Brr...). You may have the right idea, you may not. There's just more guidelines to letting a Rogue have a spellcasting archetype than there are to letting a Druid have Sneak Attack (without multiclassing anyway). Especially if your first instinct is to reduce a full caster to 1/3 spell progression.

However, this request did inspire me to whip up a Wild Trickster archetype using the Arcane Trickster archetype and the Druid's Wildshape feature as guidelines. It uses the 1/3 spellcaster progression on the Druid spell list and archetype features focus heavily on Wildshape. Take a look at it here (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?552216-Wild-Trickster-(Druid-flavored-Rogue-archetype)-(PEACH)).

clash
2018-02-27, 12:25 PM
Just something thrown together quickly that likely needs a ton of balance tweaks, but you could do something along the lines of this:

Rogue Shifter:
3 Wildshape:
You gain wildshpae progression as moon druid ie rogue level/3 and can sneak attack while wildshaped with any attack that uses dex
3 Druidic Affinity:
You have some experience with druidic circles and have either studied them or spent time as one of them. You learn Druidic as a language and you gain druidcraft as well as 2 other cantrips chosen from the druid spell list.
9 Primal Strike:
Your attacks in wildshape form are treated as magical for overcoming damage reduction.
13 Chameleon:
Your shapeshifting abilities has taught you how to blend into your surrondings. You gain advantage on stealth checks in natural terrain.
17 Feral Instincts:
The residual affects of wildshaping cause the smell of blood to drive you into a killing frenzy. Whenever you use sneak attack against a target below their full hp, you deal an additional 2d6 damage.