THREE dread ambusher attacks?

[Dualswinger]

So in the course of my powergaming activities, I cam across the following set of tweets for Sage Advice:

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2018/02/16/can-you-enlighten-us-on-the-gloom-stalkers-dread-ambush-feature/

Now, if my understanding of that wording is correct, that means that there's the potential for three attacks based on your interpretation of the rulings:

1 attack from Gloom Stalker, + 1 Action Surge to Gloom Stalker bonus again, + 1 Haste Action to Gloom Stalker a third time.

Now I doubt this is RAI by any stretch, but it's interesting to note.

On a related note, did Sage Advice say you can extra attack with Haste?

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2017/02/10/does-the-extra-attack-class-feature-stack-with-haste-additional-attack-action/

[Lombra]

It works, yes. It's not that "overpowered omg plz nerf" since you spend a spell and a limited resource to achieve it, and can't do it before level 5.

Edit: the haste spell specifies one weapon attack only.

[Dualswinger]

So how many attacks would a hasted, level 5 dread ambushed get, by your reckoning?

[Easy_Lee]

It works, yes. It's not that "overpowered omg plz nerf" since you spend a spell and a limited resource to achieve it, and can't do it before level 5.

Edit: the haste spell specifies one weapon attack only.

It probably doesn't work with Haste since Haste doesn't allow extra attack and DA is presumably meant to work like extra attack. It does work with action surge. One could theoretically make a ranger (GS) 5 / Fighter 2 / Rogue 3 (Assassin) to take maximum advantage of all this: first round is up to 7 critical hits if you have a bonus source.


So how many attacks would a hasted, level 5 dread ambushed get, by your reckoning?

Attack action = 2+1, Haste is +1, potential bonus action is +1. So five if he's a crossbow expert or dual wielder.

[Lombra]

So how many attacks would a hasted, level 5 dread ambushed get, by your reckoning?

2 without action surge, since the character takes two Attack Actions. If the character attacks both with the action and the hasted action that is.

Edit: I misread, 5 total. Without bonus action things.

[Easy_Lee]

2 without action surge, since the character takes two Attack Actions. If the character attacks both with the action and the hasted action that is.

Edit: I misread, 5 total. Without bonus action things.

Only if DA applies to the Haste attack action. I'm not convinced that it does since extra attack does not.

[Davrix]

Haste clearly states you can tack one extra action that turn but it has () after the attack action stating one weapon attack only which trumps the DA feature as the haste wording trumps Multi attack.

So if you do have action surge it works out as the following

Assume your at lv 5 ranger for the extra attack and your either duel wielding or have crossbow expert
Action Surge + Haste + Bonus action offhand

1st attack action
- 2 attack from class
- 1 attack for DA
Action Surge
2nd Attack action
- 2 attack from class
- 1 attack from DA
Haste attack action
- 1 attack
Bonus Action attack from offhand if you have CE
- 1 attack

So the total is 8 if ALL hit and yea by lv 10 it will be a pretty silly hardcore build on the opening round but after that it drops off. I mean its nice but its very reliant on the idea that you get a good position for the opener and it only truly becomes annoying if you dump 3 levels into the assassin rogue which relies on you getting that perfect set up which you may not always have.

[Easy_Lee]

So the total is 8 if ALL hit and yea by lv 10 it will be a pretty silly hardcore build on the opening round but after that it drops off. I mean its nice but its very reliant on the idea that you get a good position for the opener and it only truly becomes annoying if you dump 3 levels into the assassin rogue which relies on you getting that perfect set up which you may not always have.

It's a bit easier if you happen to be using revised ranger and a bow. It's much easier to get a surprise attack from range and RR has advantage on initiative.

Assuming assassin 3 / Fighter 2 / revised ranger, longbow, and sharpshooter, you're looking at six attacks. Apply Hunter's Mark, Sharpshooter, sneak attack, and assassinate, and that's 2*(2d6+6d6+6d8)+60+6*3(Dex), 188 damage average. That level of absurdity competes with GWM Elven Hexblades.

[Davrix]

It's a bit easier if you happen to be using revised ranger and a bow. It's much easier to get a surprise attack from range and RR has advantage on initiative.

Assuming assassin 3 / Fighter 2 / revised ranger, longbow, and sharpshooter, you're looking at six attacks. Apply Hunter's Mark, Sharpshooter, sneak attack, and assassinate, and that's 2*(2d6+6d6+6d8)+60+6*3(Dex), 188 damage average. That level of absurdity competes with GWM Elven Hexblades.

Your forgetting that this was designed without the revised ranger in mind. It was designed for the PH ranger and thus that's what you should be playing with it. People seem to confuse UA as official balanced content when its not. Your also assuming that every single attack hits.

[Dualswinger]

It's a bit easier if you happen to be using revised ranger and a bow. It's much easier to get a surprise attack from range and RR has advantage on initiative.

Assuming assassin 3 / Fighter 2 / revised ranger, longbow, and sharpshooter, you're looking at six attacks. Apply Hunter's Mark, Sharpshooter, sneak attack, and assassinate, and that's 2*(2d6+6d6+6d8)+60+6*3(Dex), 188 damage average. That level of absurdity competes with GWM Elven Hexblades.

Currently I have an AL legal build that's rolling an average of 1518.5. Yeah, it's burning ALL the possible resources in order to do that, but that's not the point XD.

With Rogue Expertise, and a Ranger with Pass Without Trace, it's not actually that hard to set up, drop hunter's mark and prepare for that opening salvo if you've got even the slightest cover.

[Lombra]

Only if DA applies to the Haste attack action. I'm not convinced that it does since extra attack does not.

Haste allows you to take one extra Attack Action, Extra Attack allows you to Attack twice with a single Attack Action.

DA's wording does feel ambiguous:
"... if you take the Attack Action on that turn, you can make one additional attack as part of that action..."

If it's true that we should read it like code, then the DA extra attack can only ever happen once per turn, since when the condition gets satisfied it doesn't check for further triggers beyond the first.
However, the absence of further exclusivity which is typical among the rules ("once during your turn" is a common formula used in the book to further specify some abilities) lead me to understand the ability as a cycle that checks for Attack Actions and returns extra Attacks whenever an Attack Action happens.

If the ability were written as ".. whenever you take attack action on that turn..." then it would be unambiguous, but at the same time, it woud be a new formula never used before that could confuse at first, since the cases in which you can get extra Attack Actions are restricted to few specific mechanics, which imo is why the designers went for what they wrote.

That's how I read it, I can see the implicit "once during your turn" reading too, but no in-betweens. If you allow it to work with Action Surge, it works with Haste.

[Easy_Lee]

Your forgetting that this was designed without the revised ranger in mind. It was designed for the PH ranger and thus that's what you should be playing with it. People seem to confuse UA as official balanced content when its not. Your also assuming that every single attack hits.

Your first point can be addressed by the feat Alert which will fit into the build if we're using variant human. For our purposes, advantage on initiative is the only thing RR gets that the base ranger does not. I didn't add Favored Enemy damage or anything else from revised ranger into the damage calculation.

Regarding your second point, we're attacking with advantage. - 5/+10 decreases hit chance but not by much in this case considering we have the Archery fighting style and advantage. At level 10 under these circumstances, a roll of 14 will hit AC 18, meaning we have about 58% accuracy even if attacking an adult white dragon. And a longbow ranger with Sharpshooter can attack from outside the dragon's blindsight radius, one more advantage to ranged characters.

Finally, revised ranger is so widely used that even some AL DMs secretly allow it.

And one more thing: play a wood elf, take Elven Accuracy instead of Alert, and add one more level of rogue to pick up the additional feat. Now we're level 11 and have over a 75% accuracy on a surprise round against AC 18 while using Sharpshooter.

[Dualswinger]

Alternatively, if you're playing the Assassin, choose Half-Orc. The ludicrous amounts of times you get your Savage Attacks to fire will skyrocket your output

[Easy_Lee]

Alternatively, if you're playing the Assassin, choose Half-Orc. The ludicrous amounts of times you get your Savage Attacks to fire will skyrocket your output

Somehow I completely forgot about Half-orc. Okay, let's go for best-case scenario with great weapon master, a great axe, and Hex cast on a target before combat. Each hit is a crit and adds an additional d12, and we'll get a bonus action attack.

14d6+21d12+70+7*3(STR)=276.5 average damage, a bit more actually due to great weapon fighting so let's just say 300. Though you'll probably get this much less often since you have to be right in their face and need to pre-set Hunter's Mark. On the upside, you can do this much more often per day than the standard Assassin Paladin / Hexblade.

[Dualswinger]

Fighter 3 + Pal 3 + Ranger 5 + Rogue 3 + Sorc 5 + Warlock 1

Use your Devotion Channel Divinity, making your weapon magic and adding CHA to hit. Then apply the Purple Worm Poison that you extracted earlier.

Cast "Pass Without Trace" and get within 30ft of your target. (Most DMs I ask at least give the chance for a stealth against anything with PWT).
While hidden, silently reassign Hex, Hunter's Mark and Hexblade Curse.

Subtle cast Haste, jump out and surprise them, winning advantage due to you having the Alert feat and them having disadvantage because you targeted Dex checks with Hex.

Hit them 8 times, smiting each time, and using some BM super dice to add some more tasty d8s on.

I'll spare the entire maths debacle, but that's over 1500 damage ;)


Edit: This works precisely once in a campaign before your DM has you permanently banned from any gaming group in the city.

[EdenIndustries]

Fighter 3 + Pal 3 + Ranger 5 + Rogue 3 + Sorc 5 + Warlock 1

Use your Devotion Channel Divinity, making your weapon magic and adding CHA to hit. Then apply the Purple Worm Poison that you extracted earlier.

Cast "Pass Without Trace" and get within 30ft of your target. (Most DMs I ask at least give the chance for a stealth against anything with PWT).
While hidden, silently reassign Hex, Hunter's Mark and Hexblade Curse.

Subtle cast Haste, jump out and surprise them, winning advantage due to you having the Alert feat and them having disadvantage because you targeted Dex checks with Hex.

Hit them 8 times, smiting each time, and using some BM super dice to add some more tasty d8s on.

I'll spare the entire maths debacle, but that's over 1500 damage ;)


Edit: This works precisely once in a campaign before your DM has you permanently banned from any gaming group in the city.

While I'm all for some huge nova, how are you casting Hex, Hunter's Mark, and Haste? All three of which are concentration spells.

[Dualswinger]

While I'm all for some huge nova, how are you casting Hex, Hunter's Mark, and Haste? All three of which are concentration spells.

The Day before, Cast Glyphs of Warding with them as 5th level spells. 24 hour duration. Sorry, forgot to add that in.

[Contrast]

The Day before, Cast Glyphs of Warding with them as 5th level spells. 24 hour duration. Sorry, forgot to add that in.

It feels optimistic to assume you will be able to predict the location of a fight to within 10ft one day in advance and still get a surprise round but it could certainly happen in some circumstances I guess :smalltongue: Plus you need to remain hidden for three turns worth of bonus actions and assumes the DM rules triggering three glyphs is a silent/invisible phenomena.

Edit - oh wait sorry I get what you mean now. Doesn't work with haste though surely?

[Dualswinger]

It feels optimistic to assume you will be able to predict the location of a fight to within 10ft one day in advance and still get a surprise round but it could certainly happen in some circumstances I guess :smalltongue: Plus you need to remain hidden for three turns worth of bonus actions and assumes the DM rules triggering three glyphs is a silent/invisible phenomena.

Because you trigger the glyphs in the morning, you don't need to "guess" the location of the fight, since you target... an ant or something, and since you cast at level 5 and last for 24 hours, you can step on the ant, have your 2 spells ready to go on a new target when you see one.

The three turns spent in stealth is down to DM stuff since stealth rules are "Eeeeeeeeehhhh" at best in 5e

[Contrast]

Because you trigger the glyphs in the morning, you don't need to "guess" the location of the fight, since you target... an ant or something, and since you cast at level 5 and last for 24 hours, you can step on the ant, have your 2 spells ready to go on a new target when you see one.

The three turns spent in stealth is down to DM stuff since stealth rules are "Eeeeeeeeehhhh" at best in 5e

Yeah sorry I got it. I'd be a bit concerned about dropping Pass without Trace for Haste just as you do the thing most likely to require stealth checks :smalltongue:

[Dualswinger]

Personally, I rule that the order of events would go:

Stealthed
Cast Haste - Subtly, therefore not breaking stealth
Move to attack, opponent is surprised, roll for initiative.

Casting Haste is the last thing done before combat begins

[Erys]

Fighter 3 + Pal 3 + Ranger 5 + Rogue 3 + Sorc 5 + Warlock 1


Because you trigger the glyphs in the morning, you don't need to "guess" the location of the fight, since you target... an ant or something, and since you cast at level 5 and last for 24 hours, you can step on the ant, have your 2 spells ready to go on a new target when you see one.

The three turns spent in stealth is down to DM stuff since stealth rules are "Eeeeeeeeehhhh" at best in 5e

Technically, since


You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class,

this build is only an 8th level caster.
1 from Paladin
2 from Ranger
5 from Sorcerer

Though I am sure 8 hours is still plenty time to take advantage of such shenanigans. :smallbiggrin:

[Dualswinger]

Technically, since



this build is only an 8th level caster.
1 from Paladin
2 from Ranger
5 from Sorcerer

Though I am sure 8 hours is still plenty time to take advantage of such shenanigans. :smallbiggrin:

I was under the impression that you sum the half casters and then halve them.

So 3 pal plus 5 rgr = 8, halve for 4

[Erys]

I was under the impression that you sum the half casters and then halve them.

So 3 pal plus 5 rgr = 8, halve for 4

Nope. I quoted the book above. You take them at individual classes not sums of similarly divided classes.

Not like you could have had all three spells lasting 24 hours to begin with; at 9th you only get one 5th lvl slot per day.

[Malifice]

So how many attacks would a hasted, level 5 dread ambushed get, by your reckoning?

2 attacks from the attack action (thanks to the extra attack class feature), +1 attack for the first round of combat (gloomstalker), +1 attack as a bonus action if dual wielding, +1 attack if he used the extra action from Haste to take the attack action again.

So up to 5 attacks.

[Jerrykhor]

Sounds cool to make a character that is an absolute beast in the first round of combat. As a DM, one way to mitigate this is to have dynamic encounters, introducing new enemies mid-way through combat rounds. In most scenarios, its quite logical for enemies to have reinforcements/backup troops.

On topic, Haste is one of the 'specific beats general' things, so Dread Ambusher attack would not work. A Hasted Gloomstalker 5/Fighter 2 can make up to 7 attacks in the first round (8 if you have some way to attack with Bonus action, but i would prefer to Hunter's Mark).

[EdenIndustries]

The Day before, Cast Glyphs of Warding with them as 5th level spells. 24 hour duration. Sorry, forgot to add that in.

I'm not sure that really works, you become the target of whatever is triggered via Glyph of Warding, not the caster. So that seems like the Glyph of Warding would get bonus damage on you if it attacked you after hexing/hunter's marking you :smallsmile:

But anyway I guess that's up to each DM! Also I know you said you wouldn't bother with the math, but if you feel like putting it all down, I'd sure love to see the breakdown of all the damage! :smallsmile:

[Malifice]

The Day before, Cast Glyphs of Warding with them as 5th level spells. 24 hour duration. Sorry, forgot to add that in.

Aaaaand we're done here.

[Dualswinger]

I'm not sure that really works, you become the target of whatever is triggered via Glyph of Warding, not the caster. So that seems like the Glyph of Warding would get bonus damage on you if it attacked you after hexing/hunter's marking you :smallsmile:

But anyway I guess that's up to each DM! Also I know you said you wouldn't bother with the math, but if you feel like putting it all down, I'd sure love to see the breakdown of all the damage! :smallsmile:

Well apparently since Paladin 3/Ranger 5 isn't counted as Caster Level 4, I needed to do some retooling. I've since dropped a level of Paladin for Sorc, just to keep my CL up

Okay, so same set up as before. Hex and Hunter's marks popped the day before thanks to Glyphs. Poison applied. Pass Without Trace. Sneak up close, pop your hex and hunter's mark onto your target, plus curse them your Hexblade Curse.

Cast Haste, perhaps they notice you, perhaps not, either way, request initiative from your DM. You SHOULD win given that you have a +9 ini mod (Wis bonus and Alert Feat) and your target is at disadvantage due to Hex giving them disadvantage on all dex checks.

Also important to note: This fight takes place in Magical Christmas Land where all your attacks hit. (I'm only at +4 to hit, not stellar.)

We have 8 attacks: 1 base + 1 Extra Attack + Gloom Stalker, + 3 from Action Surge + 1 Bonus action attack + 1 Haste attack.

2 attacks, (Which we'll say are the Gloom Stalker attacks) deal the following:

1d12 (Greataxe) + 1d12 (Crit) + 1d12 (Orc Racial) + 10d8 (Smite+Crit) + 2d6 (Hex+Crit) + 2d6 (Hunter's Mark+Crit) + 12d6 (Poison) +2d8 (Stalker Bonus+Crit) + 2d8 (BM Superiority) + 10 (GWM) + 6 (Hex Curse) + 3 (STR) + 4 (GWS reroll 1s and 2s that apply to the Stalker bonus as well), = 203.5

2 Attacks are made without the Gloom stalker 2d8, those attacks = 193 each.

Then the final 4 attacks are made without the use of superiority dice, which drop another 2d8 from each roll = 184 each.

So, 203.5+203.5+193+193+184+184+184+184 = 1529 damage.

I might have made an error there, but when you're dealing with over 200d6 you can be a little vague.


There's room for improvement, e.g. dropping a level of Sorc and Warlock to take 2 levels of grave cleric, giving my first attack vulnerability.

[Malifice]

Well apparently since Paladin 3/Ranger 5 isn't counted as Caster Level 4, I needed to do some retooling. I've since dropped a level of Paladin for Sorc, just to keep my CL up

Okay, so same set up as before. Hex and Hunter's marks popped the day before thanks to Glyphs. Poison applied. Pass Without Trace. Sneak up close, pop your hex and hunter's mark onto your target, plus curse them your Hexblade Curse.

Cast Haste, perhaps they notice you, perhaps not, either way, request initiative from your DM. You SHOULD win given that you have a +9 ini mod (Wis bonus and Alert Feat) and your target is at disadvantage due to Hex giving them disadvantage on all dex checks.

Also important to note: This fight takes place in Magical Christmas Land where all your attacks hit. (I'm only at +4 to hit, not stellar.)

We have 8 attacks: 1 base + 1 Extra Attack + Gloom Stalker, + 3 from Action Surge + 1 Bonus action attack + 1 Haste attack.

2 attacks, (Which we'll say are the Gloom Stalker attacks) deal the following:

1d12 (Greataxe) + 1d12 (Crit) + 1d12 (Orc Racial) + 10d8 (Smite+Crit) + 2d6 (Hex+Crit) + 2d6 (Hunter's Mark+Crit) + 24d6 (Poison+Crit) +2d8 (Stalker Bonus+Crit) + 2d8 (BM Superiority) + 10 (GWM) + 6 (Hex Curse) + 3 (STR) + 4 (GWS reroll 1s and 2s that apply to the Stalker bonus as well), = 203.5

2 Attacks are made without the Gloom stalker 2d8, those attacks = 193 each.

Then the final 4 attacks are made without the use of superiority dice, which drop another 2d8 from each roll = 184 each.

So, 203.5+203.5+193+193+184+184+184+184 = 1529 damage.

I might have made an error there, but when you're dealing with over 200d6 you can be a little vague.


There's room for improvement, e.g. dropping a level of Sorc and Warlock to take 2 levels of grave cleric, giving my first attack vulnerability.

Gloom stalker bonus d8 damage only applies to one attack.

Poison damage isn't double on a critical.

And much much more.

[Dualswinger]

Gloom stalker bonus d8 damage only applies to one attack.

Poison damage isn't double on a critical.

And much much more.

Okay, I wasn't aware of the poison thing, but how doesn't the d8 apply to all attacks made with the Gloom Stalker bonus? The point of this thread originally was to establish that you CAN use Gloomstalker twice with Action Surge, so why wouldn't the bonus d8 apply both times?

And what else more? Half the reason I submitted this build is for people to find the holes so please analyse away :)

[Malifice]

Okay, I wasn't aware of the poison thing, but how doesn't the d8 apply to all attacks made with the Gloom Stalker bonus ?

Go away and read the ability. Let me know if it is still unclear after you do so.

[Dualswinger]

“If you take the attack action, you may make one additional weapon attack as part of that action. If that attack hits, the target takes an extra 1d8 of the weapons damage type”

Since the devs confirmed you can get a second gloom stalker additional attack when you action surge, why wouldn’t you get the bonus d8 both times?

[Lombra]

You can't setup glyphs to get the benefits of hex and hunter's mark.

And the total amount of attacks is:(2 extra attack + 1 DA) × 2 for action surge + 1 from haste + 1 from DA triggered by haste + 1 bonus action attack = 9 attacks total. Youu can have either that or 7 + hex or 7 + hunter's mark.

You could however get buffed with haste by a party member and then cast yourself hex/hunter's mark.

[Dualswinger]

You can't setup glyphs to get the benefits of hex and hunter's mark.

And the total amount of attacks is:(2 extra attack + 1 DA) × 2 for action surge + 1 from haste + 1 from DA triggered by haste + 1 bonus action attack = 9 attacks total. Youu can have either that or 7 + hex or 7 + hunter's mark.

You could however get buffed with haste by a party member and then cast yourself hex/hunter's mark.

Is that true? I was under the impression that casting buffs with glyphs was legit because the “harm” in the spells description was merely some flair they added.

Besides, as stated, you don’t target “yourself” but a nearby easily swatted creature so you can redirect the targets later on, then assign your hex and mark to the target before combat starts, since the spell has a range of 90ft (and that’s if you don’t distance MM them)

[Lombra]

Is that true? I was under the impression that casting buffs with glyphs was legit because the “harm” in the spells description was merely some flair they added.

Besides, as stated, you don’t target “yourself” but a nearby easily swatted creature so you can redirect the targets later on, then assign your hex and mark to the target before combat starts, since the spell has a range of 90ft (and that’s if you don’t distance MM them)

The glyph would target you. Spells that buff the target would work, like cure wounds for instance, but hunter's mark and hex target the victim.

[Dualswinger]

The glyph would target you. Spells that buff the target would work, like cure wounds for instance, but hunter's mark and hex target the victim.

Could I not set the target to “the first arachnid that enters the area” and then politely ask to borrow the wizards familiar? (Or even my own)

[Lombra]

Could I not set the target to “the first arachnid that enters the area” and then politely ask to borrow the wizards familiar? (Or even my own)

If you believe that the spell should work like that, then you should also believe that you have to concentrate on the spell anyways. Either that, or nothing happens.

[Dualswinger]

If you believe that the spell should work like that, then you should also believe that you have to concentrate on the spell anyways. Either that, or nothing happens.

I suppose that’s a dm call. The closest I’ve found online is a quote from JC saying, “I guess that TECHNICALLY works but that’s not the intention.”

[Lombra]

I suppose that’s a dm call. The closest I’ve found online is a quote from JC saying, “I guess that TECHNICALLY works but that’s not the intention.”

Listen, if the spell cast requires concentration, it requires concentration. Period. You are the one casting it in the first place. And it's not the glyph who is concentrating on the spell. If it were, then it would be the glyph who gains the benefits of it. Same goes for invisibility, you still have to concentrate on it, and it does break your current concentration. The target des not become the caster, you are the caster, and you have to follow all the casting rules.

Not to mention the fact that both hex and hunter's mark are capable of targeting different creatures, invalidating the glyph prerequisites altogether.

[Dualswinger]

Listen, if the spell cast requires concentration, it requires concentration. Period. You are the one casting it in the first place. And it's not the glyph who is concentrating on the spell. If it were, then it would be the glyph who gains the benefits of it. Same goes for invisibility, you still have to concentrate on it, and it does break your current concentration. The target des not become the caster, you are the caster, and you have to follow all the casting rules.

A major selling point of glyph was that you don’t need conc to maintain whatever spell you store inside it. I may be wrong about that and invite someone else to weigh in on that.

[Zalabim]

A major selling point of glyph was that you don’t need conc to maintain whatever spell you store inside it. I may be wrong about that and invite someone else to weigh in on that.

The other side of that is that you don't control the spell stored in the glyph. It follows specific rules instead.

[Dualswinger]

That's also a legit interpretation, since the "glyph" casts the spell rather than the user.

[EdenIndustries]

Well apparently since Paladin 3/Ranger 5 isn't counted as Caster Level 4, I needed to do some retooling. I've since dropped a level of Paladin for Sorc, just to keep my CL up

Okay, so same set up as before. Hex and Hunter's marks popped the day before thanks to Glyphs. Poison applied. Pass Without Trace. Sneak up close, pop your hex and hunter's mark onto your target, plus curse them your Hexblade Curse.

Cast Haste, perhaps they notice you, perhaps not, either way, request initiative from your DM. You SHOULD win given that you have a +9 ini mod (Wis bonus and Alert Feat) and your target is at disadvantage due to Hex giving them disadvantage on all dex checks.

Also important to note: This fight takes place in Magical Christmas Land where all your attacks hit. (I'm only at +4 to hit, not stellar.)

We have 8 attacks: 1 base + 1 Extra Attack + Gloom Stalker, + 3 from Action Surge + 1 Bonus action attack + 1 Haste attack.

2 attacks, (Which we'll say are the Gloom Stalker attacks) deal the following:

1d12 (Greataxe) + 1d12 (Crit) + 1d12 (Orc Racial) + 10d8 (Smite+Crit) + 2d6 (Hex+Crit) + 2d6 (Hunter's Mark+Crit) + 12d6 (Poison) +2d8 (Stalker Bonus+Crit) + 2d8 (BM Superiority) + 10 (GWM) + 6 (Hex Curse) + 3 (STR) + 4 (GWS reroll 1s and 2s that apply to the Stalker bonus as well), = 203.5

2 Attacks are made without the Gloom stalker 2d8, those attacks = 193 each.

Then the final 4 attacks are made without the use of superiority dice, which drop another 2d8 from each roll = 184 each.

So, 203.5+203.5+193+193+184+184+184+184 = 1529 damage.

I might have made an error there, but when you're dealing with over 200d6 you can be a little vague.


There's room for improvement, e.g. dropping a level of Sorc and Warlock to take 2 levels of grave cleric, giving my first attack vulnerability.

Thanks for putting all that down! Though I notice you seem to be included the 10d8 from the Smite crit in all 8 attacks, but I don't think you have enough slots for that. I believe you're a 9th level caster? Which if so would be 1 5th slot, 3 4th slots, 3 3rd slots, 3 2nd slots, and 4 1st slots. Meaning with all being crits you'd have 4*10d8, 3*8d8, 1*6d8, no?

[Dualswinger]

Thanks for putting all that down! Though I notice you seem to be included the 10d8 from the Smite crit in all 8 attacks, but I don't think you have enough slots for that. I believe you're a 9th level caster? Which if so would be 1 5th slot, 3 4th slots, 3 3rd slots, 3 2nd slots, and 4 1st slots. Meaning with all being crits you'd have 4*10d8, 3*8d8, 1*6d8, no?

I’m away from my notes, but there’s a lot of shenanigans with flexible casting and coffee-locing

[Erys]

Thanks for putting all that down! Though I notice you seem to be included the 10d8 from the Smite crit in all 8 attacks, but I don't think you have enough slots for that. I believe you're a 9th level caster? Which if so would be 1 5th slot, 3 4th slots, 3 3rd slots, 3 2nd slots, and 4 1st slots. Meaning with all being crits you'd have 4*10d8, 3*8d8, 1*6d8, no?

Technically, its an 8th lvl caster. Not a 9th. He is also burning several slots trying to munchkin Glyph of Warding.

When multiclassing you take each class as an individual and half (round down). You do NOT add similarly divided classes first then half them.

There are a lot of little nuances that cause this build to do a LOT less damage then reported. Still a good first round burst though, regardless.

[Dualswinger]

Hopefully to dissuade accusations of me being the worst, this is merely an exercise to maximise a single turn of damage.

This is never a build I’d ever actually play, and I thank for the feedback so I can adjust my knowledge of the rules. E.g. multiclass slots

[MeeposFire]

Okay, I wasn't aware of the poison thing, but how doesn't the d8 apply to all attacks made with the Gloom Stalker bonus? The point of this thread originally was to establish that you CAN use Gloomstalker twice with Action Surge, so why wouldn't the bonus d8 apply both times?

And what else more? Half the reason I submitted this build is for people to find the holes so please analyse away :)

ACtually it depends on the poison as anything that works with a save has been given as RAI not to be doubled on a crit however poisons that are just flat extra damage dice with no save involved (rare for PC use but you see on enemies like Drow and baskilisks have this) would be.

So if your poison has a save for damage involved then you probably should not double it on a crit.

[Rukelnikov]

Well apparently since Paladin 3/Ranger 5 isn't counted as Caster Level 4, I needed to do some retooling. I've since dropped a level of Paladin for Sorc, just to keep my CL up

Okay, so same set up as before. Hex and Hunter's marks popped the day before thanks to Glyphs. Poison applied. Pass Without Trace. Sneak up close, pop your hex and hunter's mark onto your target, plus curse them your Hexblade Curse.

Cast Haste, perhaps they notice you, perhaps not, either way, request initiative from your DM. You SHOULD win given that you have a +9 ini mod (Wis bonus and Alert Feat) and your target is at disadvantage due to Hex giving them disadvantage on all dex checks.

Also important to note: This fight takes place in Magical Christmas Land where all your attacks hit. (I'm only at +4 to hit, not stellar.)

We have 8 attacks: 1 base + 1 Extra Attack + Gloom Stalker, + 3 from Action Surge + 1 Bonus action attack + 1 Haste attack.

2 attacks, (Which we'll say are the Gloom Stalker attacks) deal the following:

1d12 (Greataxe) + 1d12 (Crit) + 1d12 (Orc Racial) + 10d8 (Smite+Crit) + 2d6 (Hex+Crit) + 2d6 (Hunter's Mark+Crit) + 12d6 (Poison) +2d8 (Stalker Bonus+Crit) + 2d8 (BM Superiority) + 10 (GWM) + 6 (Hex Curse) + 3 (STR) + 4 (GWS reroll 1s and 2s that apply to the Stalker bonus as well), = 203.5

2 Attacks are made without the Gloom stalker 2d8, those attacks = 193 each.

Then the final 4 attacks are made without the use of superiority dice, which drop another 2d8 from each roll = 184 each.

So, 203.5+203.5+193+193+184+184+184+184 = 1529 damage.

I might have made an error there, but when you're dealing with over 200d6 you can be a little vague.


There's room for improvement, e.g. dropping a level of Sorc and Warlock to take 2 levels of grave cleric, giving my first attack vulnerability.

Ok, let's fix this:

1st - Injury Poison only adds to the first attack, not every attack.

2nd - The extra d8 from DA only applies to that specific attack, not to every attack of the Attack action that triggered it.

3rd - As a 3rd level Battle Master you only have 4 superiority dice, not 8.

4th - Not nearly enough slots to get that smite damage.

5th - Idw where you got those last +4 from, TWS adds an average of 0.833 (5/6) to each d12 damage

6th - I don't think the Glyph + Hex/Hunter's Mark shenannigan works, because if you are not concentrating on the spell then you shouldn't be the one who has the ability to redirect it. However, lets allow it for the excercise, removing it afterwards won't be hard.

7th - Glyph of Warding is not on the sorcerer's list (I assume its Divine sorcerer to take it from Cleric).

8th - You forgot to add sneak attack dice ;)

Let's Start:

Thus Build would be: Ftr3(BM)/Pal3(DV)/Rng5(GS)/Rog3(AS)/Src5(DS)/War1(HX)

This gives us the following spells per day: 4/3/3/2

Day 1: Glyph + Hex(3rd)/Glyph + HM(3rd)
Day 2: Conveniently trigger both glyphs (this gives us 8 hours of both spells)

Slots spent: PWT (2nd)/ Haste(3rd), remaining slots : 4/2/2/2

We are assuming magic land every attack is a hit: that's 3 Action + 3 Surge + 2 Haste = 8 hits

Lets calc "base" crit damage:

2d12(Greataxe) + 1d12(Half-orc) + 2d6(Hex) + 2d6(HM) + 3 (Str) + 10 (GWM) + 6 (Curse) = 3d12 + 4d6 + 19

This damage will be dealt 8 times ==> 24d12 + 32d6 + 152

Our extra sources of damage are (including crit multiplier):

+2d8 Superiority dice (x4) = +8d8

+4d6 Sneak attack = +4d6

+2d8 Dread Ambush (x3) = +6d8

Smite for: 2x10d8 + 2x8d8 + 2x6d8 + 2x4d8 = +56d8

Total: 24d12 + 70d8 + 36d6 + 152 ==AVG==> 24*7.33 + 42*4.5 + 36*3.5 + 152 = 176 + 315 + 126 + 152 = 769 +24d6 poison 84/42 (853/811)

Without Glyph H/HM it would be: -32d6 = -112 = 657(741/699) Still very nice damage.

This can be greatly improved upon, I'm at work now, but i'll try to post another build without deviating from the original concept (Dread Ambush/Action Surge/Smite) in the next few days.

EDIT: Wow, It seems I forgot to multiply the Smites! That's a damnton of damage! Fix'd

[bobofwestgate]

Haste clearly states you can tack one extra action that turn but it has () after the attack action stating one weapon attack only which trumps the DA feature as the haste wording trumps Multi attack.

So if you do have action surge it works out as the following

Assume your at lv 5 ranger for the extra attack and your either duel wielding or have crossbow expert
Action Surge + Haste + Bonus action offhand

1st attack action
- 2 attack from class
- 1 attack for DA
Action Surge
2nd Attack action
- 2 attack from class
- 1 attack from DA
Haste attack action
- 1 attack
Bonus Action attack from offhand if you have CE
- 1 attack

So the total is 8 if ALL hit and yea by lv 10 it will be a pretty silly hardcore build on the opening round but after that it drops off. I mean its nice but its very reliant on the idea that you get a good position for the opener and it only truly becomes annoying if you dump 3 levels into the assassin rogue which relies on you getting that perfect set up which you may not always have.


I don't think this works. You can only take one bonus action in a turn. So you can't both use your action surge, and fire/use an off-hand weapon.

[EdenIndustries]

I don't think this works. You can only take one bonus action in a turn. So you can't both use your action surge, and fire/use an off-hand weapon.

Action Surge doesn't require the use of a bonus action. Are you thinking of Second Wind maybe?

[bobofwestgate]

Action Surge doesn't require the use of a bonus action. Are you thinking of Second Wind maybe?


I was under the impression they both did. Well that Makes Shield Master that much better

[Dualswinger]

Ok, let's fix this:

1st - Injury Poison only adds to the first attack, not every attack.

2nd - The extra d8 from DA only applies to that specific attack, not to every attack of the Attack action that triggered it.

3rd - As a 3rd level Battle Master you only have 4 superiority dice, not 8.

4th - Not nearly enough slots to get that smite damage.

5th - Idw where you got those last +4 from, TWS adds an average of 0.833 (5/6) to each d12 damage

6th - I don't think the Glyph + Hex/Hunter's Mark shenannigan works, because if you are not concentrating on the spell then you shouldn't be the one who has the ability to redirect it. However, lets allow it for the excercise, removing it afterwards won't be hard.

7th - Glyph of Warding is not on the sorcerer's list (I assume its Divine sorcerer to take it from Cleric).

8th - You forgot to add sneak attack dice ;)

Let's Start:

Thus Build would be: Ftr3(BM)/Pal3(DV)/Rng5(GS)/Rog3(AS)/Src5(DS)/War1(HX)

This gives us the following spells per day: 4/3/3/2

Day 1: Glyph + Hex(3rd)/Glyph + HM(3rd)
Day 2: Conveniently trigger both glyphs (this gives us 8 hours of both spells)

Slots spent: PWT (2nd)/ Haste(3rd), remaining slots : 4/2/2/2

We are assuming magic land every attack is a hit: that's 3 Action + 3 Surge + 2 Haste = 8 hits

Lets calc "base" crit damage:

2d12(Greataxe) + 1d12(Half-orc) + 2d6(Hex) + 2d6(HM) + 3 (Str) + 10 (GWM) + 6 (Curse) = 3d12 + 4d6 + 19

This damage will be dealt 8 times ==> 24d12 + 32d6 + 152

Our extra sources of damage are (including crit multiplier):

+2d8 Superiority dice (x4) = +8d8

+4d6 Sneak attack = +4d6

+2d8 Dread Ambush (x3) = +6d8

Smite for: 2x10d8 + 2x8d8 + 2x6d8 + 2x4d8 = +56d8

Total: 24d12 + 70d8 + 36d6 + 152 ==AVG==> 24*7.33 + 42*4.5 + 36*3.5 + 152 = 176 + 315 + 126 + 152 = 769 +24d6 poison 84/42 (853/811)

Without Glyph H/HM it would be: -32d6 = -112 = 657(741/699) Still very nice damage.

This can be greatly improved upon, I'm at work now, but i'll try to post another build without deviating from the original concept (Dread Ambush/Action Surge/Smite) in the next few days.

EDIT: Wow, It seems I forgot to multiply the Smites! That's a damnton of damage! Fix'd

Didn’t forget sneak attack, just can’t use it with great axe :(

[Seafarer]

Technically, its an 8th lvl caster. Not a 9th. He is also burning several slots trying to munchkin Glyph of Warding.

When multiclassing you take each class as an individual and half (round down). You do NOT add similarly divided classes first then half them.

There are a lot of little nuances that cause this build to do a LOT less damage then reported. Still a good first round burst though, regardless.

Citation, please.

My book says "half your levels (rounded down) in the paladin and ranger classes", which is ambiguous. Personally, I always preferred the interpretation that it was half (ranger + paladin), because then the order of your ranger and paladin levels doesn't matter, giving a nice smooth progression rather than a wonky one.

Worked example of what I mean:
Say you have a paladin 2/ranger 2.

You have 3 1st-level slots.

Now, if you take your next level in ranger, there's no change. Another level in ranger (paladin 2/ranger 4) gives you 4/2 spell slots. Then two levels in paladin gives you 4/3.

Alternatively, you take a level in ranger and a level in paladin (ranger 3/paladin 3). By your interpretation, that still has only 3 spell slots. Then my next two levels both increase the spell slots I have. On the other hand, my interpretation gives you 4/2 at paladin 3/ranger 3 and then 4/3 at paladin 4/ranger 4. I think the latter is nicer, because it gives you a smooth increase no matter what order you take your levels in.