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rferries
2018-03-08, 09:11 PM
Xena, Sindbad, Conan... A class that I tried to make as powerful/useful as possible, without relying too much on magic or breaking suspension of disbelief. Thanks to Morphic tide, Jormengand, and Fri for their input in the other thread. There's a lot of fat to be trimmed here - many abilities that really are just giving numerical bonuses.



https://i.imgur.com/CJ2AFcE.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/oBzEaEc.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/djOlB8d.jpg


Adventurer

Alignment: Any.

Hit Die: d10.

Class Skills
All skills are class skills for an Adventurer. An adventurer may craft items with Craft (alchemy) even he is not a spellcaster.

Skill Points per Level: 6 + Int modifier.

Avatar


Level
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Special


1st

+1



+2



+2



+2


Bonus feat, Combat Medic


2nd

+2



+3



+3



+3


Athleticism, Guile, Intuition


3rd

+3



+3



+3



+3


Adventurer's Luck, Improved Combat Medic


4th

+4



+4



+4



+4


Competence (+1), Heroic


5th

+5



+4



+4



+4


Bonus feat, Second Wind


6th

+6/+6



+5



+5



+5


Experienced (+2), Veteran


7th

+7/+7



+5



+5



+5


Contacts, Powerfully Slight


8th

+8/+8



+6



+6



+6


Competence (+2), Hardened


9th

+9/+9



+6



+6



+6


Improved Athleticism, Quest


10th

+10/+10



+7



+7



+7


Bonus feat, Destiny, Elusive


11th

+11/+11/+11



+7



+7



+7


Improved Contacts, Improved Intuition


12th

+12/+12/+12



+8



+8



+8


Competence (+3), Experienced (+4)


13th

+13/+13/+13



+8



+8



+8


Adamant, Greater Combat Medic


14th

+14/+14/+14



+9



+9



+9


Fortune's Favourite


15th

+15/+15/+15



+9



+9



+9


Bonus feat, Greater Contacts


16th

+16/+16/+16/+16



+10



+10



+10


Competence (+4),


17th

+17/+17/+17/+17



+10



+10



+10


Miraculous


18th

+18/+18/+18/+18



+11



+11



+11


Experienced (+6)


19th

+19/+19/+19/+19



+11



+11



+11


True Hero


20th

+20/+20/+20/+20



+12



+12



+12


Bonus feat, Competence (+5)



Class Features
All of the following are class features of the adventurer.

Weapon and Armour Proficiencies
An adventurer is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (including tower shields).

Bonus Feats (Ex)
At 1st level, an adventurer gets a bonus feat of their choice. The adventurer gains an additional bonus feat at 5th level and every five class levels thereafter. An adventurer must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat.

Combat Medic (Ex)
Adventurers are masters of battlefield chirurgery, herbal lore, and other healing arts. Beginning at 1st level, an adventurer gains a bonus on Heal checks equal to his class level. Furthermore, patients under his care recover from ability drain as though it were ability damage, and may substitute his Heal check result for their Fortitude saving throw when making saving throws to remove negative levels.

An adventurer may make Heal checks to provide long-term care to himself.

An adventurer may make Heal checks in combat as immediate actions without provoking attacks of opportunity. He may also drink or administer a potion as an immediate action without provoking an attack of opportunity.

At the end of an encounter an adventurer may make a Heal check for up to 8 wounded characters present. An amount of lethal damage suffered by each character (up to the Heal check result) is converted into an equal amount of nonlethal damage.

Improved Combat Medic
At 3rd level, as a standard action an adventurer may treat any condition that could be removed by heal by making a Heal check. The check DC is equal to the save DC of the original effect (or DC 20 for effects with no save DC).

Additionally, as a standard action an adventurer may make a Heal check to restore hit points (equal to the check result) to a friendly creature. A creature may benefit from this effect no more than once per hour.

Greater Combat Medic
At 13th level, this ability may be used to treat any condition that could be removed with greater restoration.

Athleticism (Ex)
Beginning at 2nd level, an adventurer adds one-half his class level as a bonus on Balance, Climb, Escape Artist, Jump, Ride, Swim, and Tumble checks. He may always take 10 on those checks, even if rushed or threatened.

Improved Athleticism
Beginning at 9th level, an adventurer gains a climb and swim speed each equal to his land speed and may make Swim checks instead of Constitution checks to hold his breath. Additionally, he becomes immune to damage from falling (and may share that immunity with up to a heavy loads' worth of creatures he is carrying). Finally, subtract the vertical reach (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/jump.htm) for a creature of his effective size (see Powerfully Slight, above) from the height he wishes to jump before calculating a Jump DC.

Guile (Ex)
At 2nd level, an adventurer ignores all penalties for making rushed Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate checks. He may always take 20 on those checks, even if rushed or threatened.

Intuition (Ex)
Beginning at 2nd level, an adventurer adds one-half his class level as a bonus on Listen, Search, Sense Motive, and Spot checks. Additionally, an adventurer who merely passes within 5 feet of a secret or concealed door or a trap is entitled to a Search check to notice it as if he were actively looking for it.

Improved Intuition
An adventurer of at least 11th level has developed "hunches" and leaps of logic that verge on the prescient. He gains blindsense out to 5 feet per two class levels. If he possesses the Blind-Fight feat, this blindsense improves to blindsight.

Furthermore, he gains the ability to duplicate the effects of contact other plane, discern location, divination, and legend lore each once per day by making a Gather Information check (DC 20 + spell level), save that the effects are nonmagical (he gleans information through conversation with local sages rather than by contacting a deity etc.) and he never risks any danger to himself. His effective caster level for these effects is equal to his class level.

Adventurer's Luck (Ex)
At 3rd level, an adventurer gains a luck bonus equal to his Charisma bonus (if any, and to a maximum of his class level) on his Armour Class and all his saving throws.

Competence (Ex)
Beginning at 4th level, an adventurer gains a +1 competence bonus on all skill checks and ability checks and may use all skills untrained. The bonus increases to +2 at 8th level and by an additional +1 every four class levels thereafter.

Additionally, adventurers may detect and disable traps as though they were rogues.

Heroic (Ex)
At 4th level an adventurer gains a constant, nonmagical heroism effect. All allies within 30 feet that can see, hear, or otherwise perceive him share this benefit.

True Hero
At 19th level this improves to a constant, nonmagical greater heroism effect (caster level = class level) that benefits all allies within 300 feet (provided they can still perceive the adventurer). The temporary hit points from this effect apply only to the adventurer and are refreshed at the start and end of each encounter.

Second Wind (Ex)
At 5th level an adventurer heals hit points and ability damage every hour rather than every day.

Experienced (Ex)
Beginning at 6th level, an adventurer gains a +2 enhancement bonus to each of his ability scores. This bonus increases to +4 at 12th level, and to +6 at 18th level.

Veteran (Ex)
Beginning at 6th level, an adventurer makes all iterative attacks at his full base attack bonus. Additionally, he may make a full attack as a standard action.

Contacts (Ex)
Adventurers have friends in high (and low) places. At 7th level an adventurer may duplicate the effects of lesser planar ally once per day (caster level = class level), save that the effect is nonmagical, has no XP cost, and may be used to hire any creature of CR 6 or less (even creatures with class levels and/or from the adventurer's home plane). It is assumed that an adventurer can get word to these contacts via letters, couriers, sending spells from intermediates, etc. without needing to use magic himself. It may also be retrospectively assumed that the adventurer hired the creature at some past date to benefit himself in the present.

Improved Contacts
At 11th level this ability may be used to call a single creature of CR 12 or less, or two creatures of the same kind whose CR total no more than 12. The creatures agree to help you and request your return payment together.

Greater Contacts
At 15th level this ability may be used to call a single creature of CR 18 or less, or up to three creatures of the same kind whose CR total no more than 18. The creatures agree to help you and request your return payment together.

Powerfully Slight (Ex)
Adventurers strike with great force, but are hard to pin down. At 7th level an adventurer gains both the Powerful Build and Slight Build special qualities (i.e. for any given purpose he is treated as a creature of his own size, one size smaller, or one size larger, whichever would be more beneficial to him at the time). The benefits of this ability include reach, weapon damage (including for natural attacks and unarmed strikes), size bonuses (on attacks and Armour Class), and effective size for the purpose of Swallow Whole and similar abilities.

Hardened (Ex)
Seasoned adventurers are as tough as old boots. Beginning at 8th level, an adventurer gains hardness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/exploration.htm#hardness) equal to one-half his class level. An adventurer is still a creature rather than an object (do not halve or quarter energy damage or damage from ranged weapons before applying this hardness).

Adamant
Beginning at 13th level, an adventurer's hardness improves to three-quarters of his class level.

Additionally, whenever he would be subjected to an attack or harmful effect that doesn't permit a save he may make a saving throw (DC 15 + one-half the CR of the source of the effect; minimum DC 20) to ignore that effect.

Quest (Ex)
Adventurers know their way around. At 9th level, an adventurer is adept at rapidly travelling to other locations and even to other planes of existence, usually by mundane means (carts, ships, caravans, etc.) but occasionally with magical assistance (friendly wizard contacts, ancient portals only the fighter knows about, etc.). Once per day he may duplicate the effects of shadow walk (caster level = class level), save that the effect is nonmagical and may only be used outside of combat.

Destiny (Ex)
At 10th level an adventurer treats a natural roll of 1 on a d20 as a natural roll of 20.

Elusive (Ex)
At 10th level, if an adventurer successfully saves against an effect with a partial effect on a successful save, he instead suffers no effects from the attack. If he fails the save, he instead suffers the partial effect.

Fortune's Favourite (Ex)
Adventurers often benefit from the most astonishing strokes of luck, precisely when they need them. At 14th level, an adventurer may produce a minor miracle (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?533711-Minor-Miracle-(limited-wish-equivalent)-amp-True-Atonement-(Good-aligned-mind-control)&p=22302454#post22302454) (caster level = class level) three times per day, save that the effect is nonmagical.

Miraculous (Ex)
A veteran adventurer has luck that verges on the miraculous. At 17th level he may produce a miracle (caster level = class level) three times per day, save that the effect is nonmagical.

nonsi
2018-03-08, 11:50 PM
.
Maybe I'm missing something here, but it seems like this class is a bucket of enhanced stats and non-magical magical abilities that are designed to bypass a lot of the game's challenges and overrule several game mechanics, to the point of rendering some of them moot due to virtually auto-success.
I'm not sure the end result would improve the group's gaming experience.

Morphic tide
2018-03-09, 12:37 AM
I do apologize for not getting around to finishing my post on how to make an actual Hyper"mundane" work out (I have that open in another tab right now) until after you posted this, but I'll critique this unsuccessful attempt at getting to t2/t1 (because those two tiers are literally defined by just flat out breaking the game with trivial problem solving abilities).

General Overview:
The class is almost entirely +numbers, but it at least offers the actually needed numbers that tend to cripple Martials trying to reach t3. Being able to "dump" most niche or mandetory skills due to a 1/2 level bonus to them opens room to focus on more useful things like Craft and the Stealth skills. The central problem with being mostly +numbers is that there's not much higher-end utility, though skills cover enough to edge in on t3 on their own (technically, Diplomacy inflation is a t2 grade trick as literally everything becomes your fanatical worshipper in two rounds nearly trivially). I won't be covering the +numbers abilities individually, but suffice to say that it covers some of the problems with a higher-tier Martial. Unrestricted bonus feats would be a huge help, if the class were getting one every three levels to double their feats, but even one per four levels helps a lot thanks to the many valuable feats for (Ex) and (Su) abilities out there. Even the limited feat access to MoI and ToB mechanics is going to give a rather sizable boost, and Binding offers some extremely good tricks.

Combat Medic:
This ability is actually close to worthless, as the normal Heal skill is extremely bad. The best it does is replace saves vs. Poison, without any HP recovery to be seen outside of doubling the natural rest recovery rate. Healing Ability Drain is nice, but ultimately the weakness of the skill ruins the feature. The immediate/swift action Potion use/administering would be really useful, if the class was actually able to make potions. Unfortunately, Potions are a magic item crafting thing, so the feat is ultimately reduced to a frill.

Rally the Troops:
The lack of potential retry on either ability to boost the effect during combat (seriously, is it too much to ask for a Swift Action spender?) is a bit annoying, but 120 ft. Fear without the annoying stacking prevention clause is pretty useful. Admittedly, Combat Inspiration is going to be much better, as THP based on a skill check that you get a guaranteed take 20 on and protection from Fatigue penalties are going to be an auto-yes.

Second Wind:
If Combat Medic allowed this class to self-apply Long Term Care, then this would be a good ability. As-is, it mostly removes Ability Damage as a long term threat and largely cuts off magical healing as a need, particularly if you selected Combat Inspiration as the 3rd level bonus feat. You get 1 HP per HD per hour, so it's going to help quite a bit. Not a huge degree, sadly, but enough to save quite a few Cleric spell slots.

Leadership:
First off, rename to Inspiring Presence, your dislike of minion spam is noted and disregarded for casters doing it better than the feat (including their own special Necromancy version!). Second, the bonus is too small, CL doesn't improve the effect itself at all (it's also locked to a weirdly-centerless 30 ft. area, as no two targets can be more than 30 ft. apart). I suggest applying Charisma as the bonus in a specifically defined area instead of a spell effect that's hard to understand the result of.

Veteran:
Ah, iterative penalties. This is simultaneously too narrow and overpowered, as it means you're dealing vastly more damage than any other Martial (you have the feats and bonuses to successfully Ubercharge and now get a vastly improved success rate), but only improves raw damage ability. If you had utility effects to do in place of attacks, then you'd get some kind of excuse for this effect's existence.

Contacts:
This is the sort of arbitrary nonsense I'm against categorizing as (Ex), because it doesn't have in-universe justification. It's the core problem of Leadership, but made worse by the interplanar nature. Power-wise, it's not nearly strong enough to keep up with the stuff that casters do with ease and mostly just gives you utility effects from Outsiders (and now I actually want to make that t1-ish Summoner class...) at a much more limited pace than casters get. It assures that this class lands on the low end of t3, at a minimum, though. When you exclude Diplomacy, because that's basically (Ex) Dominate Person.

Powerfully Slight:
I prefer "Lithe Force", as it gives an excuse to roll in some Strength/Dexterity bonuses and isn't a rehash of the relevant features. Being able to count as any of a three-size range as it would advantage you is good, and I'd like to divorce it from Powerful/Slight Build to make the edge case exceptions properly count. For example, actually having the AC and Attack bonuses of the lower size, then the Natural Armor, Unarmed/Natural Attacks and Reach of the larger size. Pretty sure that's not included in Powerful/Slight Build. Mostly, this'll be a +numbers, but sometimes, you just might do something awesome. Like that Dragon realizing that you actually can hold their mouth open and escape the Swallow Whole attempt, or crawling right on through a space only a hair bigger than your head without a single skill point in Escape Artist.

Hardened:
This might halve all energy damage other than Sonic, which would be a huge durability buff. It's DR that isn't bypassed as DR (including applying to energy damage), though Stone Dragon Hammer will still bypass it as it has a Hardness clause. A note is that 1/2 level is too low, as damage inflates pretty high at the upper end. A flat multiple of Constitution bonus, or 1/2 level + (1/4 level * Con bonus), would let it potentially get high enough to actually seriously impact survivability against CL 10+ spells and CR 12+ bruisers.

...Okay, I'm stopping here because the next non-+numbers is (Ex) Divinations. That's... Kinda ridiculous.


.
Maybe I'm missing something here, but it seems like this class is a bucket of enhanced stats and non-magical magical abilities that are designed to bypass a lot of the game's challenges and overrule several game mechanics, to the point of rendering some of them moot due to virtually auto-success.
I'm not sure the end result would improve the group's gaming experience.
It's exactly that, he made a thread for what's needed for a non-spellcaster t1 character to "research" for this. It's t3 at best due to lack of full game breakers and limited use of the limited game breakers it does have.

nonsi
2018-03-09, 01:15 AM
It's exactly that, he made a thread for what's needed for a non-spellcaster t1 character to "research" for this. It's t3 at best due to lack of full game breakers and limited use of the limited game breakers it does have.

Contacts and Miraculous are T1 by any measuring rule I know of, and I can't think of any way whatsoever of associating those with the term "mundane".
Also, I'm not taking just about tiers, but the fact that a lot of challenges are simply handwaved aside, and that for an adventurer the rules of the game simply work differently.

Jormengand
2018-03-09, 11:25 AM
Ah, an adventurer class that can call in contacts (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?471934-The-Adventurer-3-5-class-PEACH) and has a bunch of ex abilities which should be su or sp (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tome_of_Battle:_The_Book_of_Nine_Swords). How new and inspired!

Morphic tide
2018-03-09, 11:54 AM
Ah, an adventurer class that can call in contacts (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?471934-The-Adventurer-3-5-class-PEACH) and has a bunch of ex abilities which should be su or sp (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tome_of_Battle:_The_Book_of_Nine_Swords). How new and inspired!

...Wait, you're actually one of those "ToB should be Su" people? How hard is it to get it through your head that (Ex) is explicitly allowed to break physics over it's knee. (Ex) is for stuff that is not Spell Like or Supernatural, that's it. Here's the SRD's definition of an Extraordinary ability:


Extraordinary Abilities (Ex)

Extraordinary abilities are nonmagical, though they may break the laws of physics. They are not something that just anyone can do or even learn to do without extensive training.

These abilities cannot be disrupted in combat, as spells can, and they generally do not provoke attacks of opportunity. Effects or areas that negate or disrupt magic have no effect on extraordinary abilities. They are not subject to dispelling, and they function normally in an antimagic field.

Using an extraordinary ability is usually not an action because most extraordinary abilities automatically happen in a reactive fashion. Those extraordinary abilities that are actions are standard actions unless otherwise noted.
They may break the laws of physics, but aren't something just anyone can learn to do without extensive training. Sound's awfully like Sword Magic, doesn't it?

Here's a bit from the description of Supernatural:


Supernatural abilities are magical and go away in an antimagic field

So I repeat, (Ex) is explicitly allowed to break physics. And Supernatural abilities are explicitly (somewhat) magical, going away under AMF.

Jormengand
2018-03-09, 11:59 AM
...Wait, you're actually one of those "ToB should be Su" people? How hard is it to get it through your head that (Ex) is explicitly allowed to break physics over it's knee.

And it shouldn't be, otherwise there is no meaningful reason why (ex) is (ex) and (su) is (su). If you try to tell me that ToB is mundane because someone decided to put an (ex) tag on it, I'm not going to believe you.

Goaty14
2018-03-10, 06:43 PM
My biggest gripe is that it has the best possible chassis... Even the all-mighty wizard has d4 hp and one good save, not to mention 2 skill points/level. Tone it down a lil, yeah?

rferries
2018-03-10, 08:07 PM
.
Maybe I'm missing something here, but it seems like this class is a bucket of enhanced stats and non-magical magical abilities that are designed to bypass a lot of the game's challenges and overrule several game mechanics, to the point of rendering some of them moot due to virtually auto-success.
I'm not sure the end result would improve the group's gaming experience.


Contacts and Miraculous are T1 by any measuring rule I know of, and I can't think of any way whatsoever of associating those with the term "mundane".
Also, I'm not taking just about tiers, but the fact that a lot of challenges are simply handwaved aside, and that for an adventurer the rules of the game simply work differently.

Guilty as charged! However, that was kind of the point of the class - something that can solve the problems that tier 1&2 classes can, in a "non-magical" way. Note that wizards, clerics etc. enjoy the same kind of automatic success against those problems - see knock, find traps, charm person, etc.


I do apologize for not getting around to finishing my post on how to make an actual Hyper"mundane" work out (I have that open in another tab right now) until after you posted this, but I'll critique this unsuccessful attempt at getting to t2/t1 (because those two tiers are literally defined by just flat out breaking the game with trivial problem solving abilities).

Not to worry, and thank you for the detailed comments. This class is really just a thought experiment/work in progress, so hopefully it can be refined more and more over time.


General Overview:
The class is almost entirely +numbers, but it at least offers the actually needed numbers that tend to cripple Martials trying to reach t3. Being able to "dump" most niche or mandetory skills due to a 1/2 level bonus to them opens room to focus on more useful things like Craft and the Stealth skills. The central problem with being mostly +numbers is that there's not much higher-end utility, though skills cover enough to edge in on t3 on their own (technically, Diplomacy inflation is a t2 grade trick as literally everything becomes your fanatical worshipper in two rounds nearly trivially). I won't be covering the +numbers abilities individually, but suffice to say that it covers some of the problems with a higher-tier Martial. Unrestricted bonus feats would be a huge help, if the class were getting one every three levels to double their feats, but even one per four levels helps a lot thanks to the many valuable feats for (Ex) and (Su) abilities out there. Even the limited feat access to MoI and ToB mechanics is going to give a rather sizable boost, and Binding offers some extremely good tricks.

Ha yes, I figured skills were a way to get a lot of problem-solving out of the way without magic. I dithered about letting them take 20 on the social skills, but reminded myself that charm spells were more powerful (although Diplomacy does have the advantage of working even on creatures immune to mind-affecting effects).

For simplicity, should I combine Competence, Athleticism, Guile etc into one class feature? For example:


Competence: From 2nd level, an adventurer gains a bonus on all skill checks = 1/2 his class level, may attempt any skill check untrained and may always take 10, even when rushed or threatened.

Greater competence: From 10th level, the bonus increases to his class level and he may always take 20.

Re: bonus feats - are you saying they're ok as-is, but should be granted more frequently? Or even that prerequisites should be ignored? In the latter case I admit I'm intimidated about potential abuse, even given my stated goal for this project haha.


Combat Medic:
This ability is actually close to worthless, as the normal Heal skill is extremely bad. The best it does is replace saves vs. Poison, without any HP recovery to be seen outside of doubling the natural rest recovery rate. Healing Ability Drain is nice, but ultimately the weakness of the skill ruins the feature. The immediate/swift action Potion use/administering would be really useful, if the class was actually able to make potions. Unfortunately, Potions are a magic item crafting thing, so the feat is ultimately reduced to a frill.

This was aimed at facilitating low-level play - turn lethal damage into nonlethal to heal it faster, recover from an Allip or wight without needing expensive magic, etc. It becomes superfluous soon on but I could add an improved version (mimicking lay on hands), plus an ability to make nonmagical potions with Craft (alchemy), so that it's useful at higher levels.


Rally the Troops:
The lack of potential retry on either ability to boost the effect during combat (seriously, is it too much to ask for a Swift Action spender?) is a bit annoying, but 120 ft. Fear without the annoying stacking prevention clause is pretty useful. Admittedly, Combat Inspiration is going to be much better, as THP based on a skill check that you get a guaranteed take 20 on and protection from Fatigue penalties are going to be an auto-yes.

I may just take this out (or the Leadership ability, or Warcraft), they all cover the same ground and rely too much on extraneous homebrew.


Second Wind:
If Combat Medic allowed this class to self-apply Long Term Care, then this would be a good ability. As-is, it mostly removes Ability Damage as a long term threat and largely cuts off magical healing as a need, particularly if you selected Combat Inspiration as the 3rd level bonus feat. You get 1 HP per HD per hour, so it's going to help quite a bit. Not a huge degree, sadly, but enough to save quite a few Cleric spell slots.

Righto, I'll add in self-care (not a huge leap, there's that doctor who did surgery on himself after all :D).


Leadership:
First off, rename to Inspiring Presence, your dislike of minion spam is noted and disregarded for casters doing it better than the feat (including their own special Necromancy version!). Second, the bonus is too small, CL doesn't improve the effect itself at all (it's also locked to a weirdly-centerless 30 ft. area, as no two targets can be more than 30 ft. apart). I suggest applying Charisma as the bonus in a specifically defined area instead of a spell effect that's hard to understand the result of.

Yeah this was a lazy addition on my part, I'll subsume it.


Veteran:
Ah, iterative penalties. This is simultaneously too narrow and overpowered, as it means you're dealing vastly more damage than any other Martial (you have the feats and bonuses to successfully Ubercharge and now get a vastly improved success rate), but only improves raw damage ability. If you had utility effects to do in place of attacks, then you'd get some kind of excuse for this effect's existence.

I already saw this class as making martial characters obsolete, so I'm not too worried about eclipsing them (edited to allow full attacks as a standard action too :D). Good point about utility effects but I don't think I have the energy to brainstorm a set of them haha.


Contacts:
This is the sort of arbitrary nonsense I'm against categorizing as (Ex), because it doesn't have in-universe justification. It's the core problem of Leadership, but made worse by the interplanar nature. Power-wise, it's not nearly strong enough to keep up with the stuff that casters do with ease and mostly just gives you utility effects from Outsiders (and now I actually want to make that t1-ish Summoner class...) at a much more limited pace than casters get. It assures that this class lands on the low end of t3, at a minimum, though. When you exclude Diplomacy, because that's basically (Ex) Dominate Person.

I'll add more fluff to make this palatable - you aren't conjuring them so much as sending word that you need help via intermediaries (e.g. mailing letters, couriers, which may include sending spells or spellcasters at some point in the process without you casting a spell yourself), or even hand-waving it that you had arranged help in the past that is only arriving now. Note also that you can use the ability to call humanoids with class levels, should you choose.

I've also improved the effect to be based on CR rather than Hit Dice, favouring contacts with class levels rather than monsters now (and providing a big power boost).


Powerfully Slight:
I prefer "Lithe Force", as it gives an excuse to roll in some Strength/Dexterity bonuses and isn't a rehash of the relevant features. Being able to count as any of a three-size range as it would advantage you is good, and I'd like to divorce it from Powerful/Slight Build to make the edge case exceptions properly count. For example, actually having the AC and Attack bonuses of the lower size, then the Natural Armor, Unarmed/Natural Attacks and Reach of the larger size. Pretty sure that's not included in Powerful/Slight Build. Mostly, this'll be a +numbers, but sometimes, you just might do something awesome. Like that Dragon realizing that you actually can hold their mouth open and escape the Swallow Whole attempt, or crawling right on through a space only a hair bigger than your head without a single skill point in Escape Artist.

Hm, in my prior homebrew I've always included the bonuses you mention butI'll make them explicit here. I think there are multiple printed Powerful Builds haha.


Hardened:
This might halve all energy damage other than Sonic, which would be a huge durability buff. It's DR that isn't bypassed as DR (including applying to energy damage), though Stone Dragon Hammer will still bypass it as it has a Hardness clause. A note is that 1/2 level is too low, as damage inflates pretty high at the upper end. A flat multiple of Constitution bonus, or 1/2 level + (1/4 level * Con bonus), would let it potentially get high enough to actually seriously impact survivability against CL 10+ spells and CR 12+ bruisers.

It's not intended to halve/quarter damage (I believe that's a function of being an object, not of hardness itself). It does improve to 3/4ths level though. At 20th level you'll take only scratches from a pit fiend :D


...Okay, I'm stopping here because the next non-+numbers is (Ex) Divinations. That's... Kinda ridiculous.

Looks like a job for more fluff! And thanks for all your help :)


Ah, an adventurer class that can call in contacts (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?471934-The-Adventurer-3-5-class-PEACH) and has a bunch of ex abilities which should be su or sp (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tome_of_Battle:_The_Book_of_Nine_Swords). How new and inspired!

Confession time, I've never actuallyread Tome of Blades, only gleaned bits of it through osmosis. However my general understanding was 1) the classes in it are just better versions of fighter, not necessarily useful outside of combat and 2) it's criticised for having an "Anime" feel, which I hoped to avoid for this class.


And it shouldn't be, otherwise there is no meaningful reason why (ex) is (ex) and (su) is (su). If you try to tell me that ToB is mundane because someone decided to put an (ex) tag on it, I'm not going to believe you.

I think (apart from specific game mechanics like antimagic and the like), the distinction is purely one of fluff. Consider:

Fireball (Sp): You may use fireball once per day as a spell-like ability.

Flameheart (Su): Once per day as a standard action you may call upon the Elemental Plane of Fire to produce a fireball (caster level = your class level, save DC 13 + your Charisma modifier) as a supernatural ability.

Inferno Grenade (Ex): As a standard action you may launch a self-propelled grenade that explodes just as a fireball (caster level = your class level, save DC 13 + your Intelligence modifier). Once you use this ability you must wait 24 hours before using it again (it is assumed that you scrounge for the components to manufacture another in that time).

Three different abilities, but the same effect each time.



Did a few edits! Also considering a crafting ability to make nonmagical versions of magic items (or at least potions with Craft (alchemy)), but that's perhaps going too far. Maybe I'll add in the masterwork stuff I've done elsewhere though.

rferries
2018-03-10, 08:15 PM
My biggest gripe is that it has the best possible chassis... Even the all-mighty wizard has d4 hp and one good save, not to mention 2 skill points/level. Tone it down a lil, yeah?

Fair point, I've reduced the HD and skill points slightly.

nonsi
2018-03-11, 03:06 AM
...Wait, you're actually one of those "ToB should be Su" people? How hard is it to get it through your head that (Ex) is explicitly allowed to break physics over it's knee. (Ex) is for stuff that is not Spell Like or Supernatural, that's it. Here's the SRD's definition of an Extraordinary ability:


They may break the laws of physics, but aren't something just anyone can learn to do without extensive training. Sound's awfully like Sword Magic, doesn't it?

Here's a bit from the description of Supernatural:



So I repeat, (Ex) is explicitly allowed to break physics. And Supernatural abilities are explicitly (somewhat) magical, going away under AMF.

I don't recall ATM any (Ex) abilities that completely throw the laws of physics out the window.
In spirit, I think that (Ex) abilities should only stretch reality at low-mid levels, leaving physics shattering (Ex) abilities in the territory of high levels (15+).

rferries
2018-03-11, 12:10 PM
I don't recall ATM any (Ex) abilities that completely throw the laws of physics out the window.
In spirit, I think that (Ex) abilities should only stretch reality at low-mid levels, leaving physics shattering (Ex) abilities in the territory of high levels (15+).

Regeneration, damage reduction, energy resistance & immunity are all Ex, flight can be Ex even for absurdly large creatures (like the aforementioned Roc), and in one remarkable example the antimagic fields of colossi (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/colossus.htm) are Ex. Plus lots of divine abilities like divine aura (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm#divineAura), alter form (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#salientDivineAbilities), etc.

Morphic tide
2018-03-11, 02:36 PM
Regeneration, damage reduction, energy resistance & immunity are all Ex, flight can be Ex even for absurdly large creatures (like the aforementioned Roc), and in one remarkable example the antimagic fields of colossi (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/colossus.htm) are Ex. Plus lots of divine abilities like divine aura (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm#divineAura), alter form (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#salientDivineAbilities), etc.

Also, 80%+ of Tome of Battle's Martial Initiation subsystem. Which is a major criticism, even though core explicitly states (Ex) can violate physics and aren't necessarily stuff just anyone can do without extensive training (which weirdly implies that every Extraordinary ability can be acquired via training, with none of them flatly requiring inborn talent or alteration of oneself)

Cosi
2018-03-11, 03:20 PM
I don't understand why the class is so emphatically not magic. It really undercuts the feeling of "badass" when your most significant abilities have clauses about how other people have to help you out. It's still not a caster even if it can get to the Elemental Plane of Earth on its own. When you are literally pulling miracle out of your ass, you are magic. And that is okay.

Also, the class is a great example of why the Tiers make terrible design targets. It has a bunch of abilities that are just checking off someone's idea of "what you need to compete with a Wizard" rather than taking an interesting concept and making it Wizard-level.

rferries
2018-03-11, 04:36 PM
I don't understand why the class is so emphatically not magic. It really undercuts the feeling of "badass" when your most significant abilities have clauses about how other people have to help you out. It's still not a caster even if it can get to the Elemental Plane of Earth on its own. When you are literally pulling miracle out of your ass, you are magic. And that is okay.

Also, the class is a great example of why the Tiers make terrible design targets. It has a bunch of abilities that are just checking off someone's idea of "what you need to compete with a Wizard" rather than taking an interesting concept and making it Wizard-level.

Meh, this class is primarily a thought experiment. It'd be nice if people actually used it but it'll probably need a lot more revision first. Nothing wrong with being explicitly magic, but I think it's possible to be cool while still being a mundane - compare Conan the Barbarian getting spellcasting help from Akiro the Wizard, various Marvel heroes consulting Dr.Strange, and so on. The irony here is that I VASTLY prefer wizards myself, just taking a stab at helping noncasters out :D

Agreed that there's no central concept here, other than "heroic protagonist". I kind of like keeping it nebulous for this purpose though - you'll do ok in combat, overcome most social & stealth problems, and outsource everything else via contacts or good fortune.

Cosi
2018-03-11, 07:59 PM
compare Conan the Barbarian getting spellcasting help from Akiro the Wizard, various Marvel heroes consulting Dr.Strange, and so on.

The thing is, if Conan goes to Akiro for help, but the reverse doesn't happen, Conan is clearly inferior to Akiro. And while I suppose you could re-write the game with the assumption that everyone's ability suite has holes in it and they all rely on contacts to fill those holes, that's not how things are now, so having the mundane work that way makes him feel less impressive than the Wizard even if he's mechanically equal.

nonsi
2018-03-13, 02:09 AM
Regeneration


Radically fast-metabolism-biology.
Certain lizards can even regrow parts of their brain. Not as fast as in D&D, but surprisingly fast (and who knows the full potential of regeneration?)





damage reduction


Tough hide / tough flesh / massive bones / elastic organs . . .





energy resistance & immunity


I see nothing abnormal about energy resistance. Low combustibility, isolating hide etc.

Energy immunity at low levels is usually well rationalized.
Stone creatures are immune to acid - also true IRL. Elemental creatures in general are immune to the very element that they're made of. I'd be surprised if it were anything else.
Very few things are immune or even resistant to Sonic damage.
Nothing's resistant/immune to Force damage, except for Force Dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/dragonEpic.htm).





flight can be Ex even for absurdly large creatures (like the aforementioned Roc)


Heavier things actually fly IRL (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_large_aircraft) (the wonders of aerodynamics).





and in one remarkable example the antimagic fields of colossi (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/colossus.htm) are Ex.


1. . . . which is well passed 15th level.
2. There's a good reason why so many renounce the infamous Epic Level Handbook. It was just so poorly thought out on so many levels.





Plus lots of divine abilities like divine aura (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm#divineAura), alter form (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#salientDivineAbilities), etc.


. . . which are well passed 15th level.

rferries
2018-03-13, 10:44 AM
The thing is, if Conan goes to Akiro for help, but the reverse doesn't happen, Conan is clearly inferior to Akiro. And while I suppose you could re-write the game with the assumption that everyone's ability suite has holes in it and they all rely on contacts to fill those holes, that's not how things are now, so having the mundane work that way makes him feel less impressive than the Wizard even if he's mechanically equal.

Akiro (to continue the example) needed Conan's leadership however - an undefinable and nonmagical yet powerful quality. Yes it's not as great as Conan being able to cast spells himself for I think it falls within the stated aim of this project, and it's all ultimately a matter of opinion anyways.


well past 15th level

Sorry I overlooked that in your post. Here are some lower-level examples:

1. Regeneration - a tendriculous (CR 6) could be hurled into the sun (minimum 20d6 fire damage/round, if we compare it to magma) and recover easily even after hours/days of exposure. Dump that same tendriculous in acid though, and it'll die in a couple rounds. There's no sane biological explanation for that. Similarly, you can chop it into tiny pieces with chainsaws and it'll be ok, but if you use hammers it'll die. In real life the body doesn't care THAT much about blunt vs abrasive trauma.

2. Damage reduction - a lantern archon (CR 2) has damage reduction 10/evil and magic. There is no weapon in our universe that is evil or magic, let alone both.

3. Energy resistance/immunity: see Small fire elementals (CR 1) and the sun vs acid, as for a tendriculous. After a certain point the sheer amount of energy they can withstand breaks physics, especially when they can't withstand energy of another type (e.g. electrical).

4. Flight (Ex) - planes are artificial though and rely on high-energy fuel and metal-strong structures. There's no roc (CR 9, and a creature of the animal type, which is supposedly nonmagical) or similar creature in real life.

5. Bonus: in real life 2 objects cannot exist in the same place at the same time. However, the Earth Glide (Ex) of a Small earth elemental (CR 1) allows it to do so, breaking the laws of our universe with an Ex ability.

Ranged Ranger
2018-03-19, 02:38 AM
Ok, Some of the individual components are cool, and the way you chose to arrange the class components is interesting. You do realize that this has been done before (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?307285-The-Myth-Tier-1-quot-Mundane-quot-Challenge-Accepted)? As with the previous attempts, the problem is that if you succeed in reaching a goal of making a single high tier non-caster, you've negated the usefulness of all other non-casters by stepping all over their concepts... I'd be far more interested in a system of tier-raising additives that classes could use to level the playing field...



Contacts and Miraculous are T1 by any measuring rule I know of, and I can't think of any way whatsoever of associating those with the term "mundane".
Also, I'm not taking just about tiers, but the fact that a lot of challenges are simply handwaved aside, and that for an adventurer the rules of the game simply work differently.

...Wait, you're actually one of those "ToB should be Su" people? How hard is it to get it through your head that (Ex) is explicitly allowed to break physics over it's knee. (Ex) is for stuff that is not Spell Like or Supernatural, that's it. Here's the SRD's definition of an Extraordinary ability:
Extraordinary Abilities (Ex)

Extraordinary abilities are nonmagical, though they may break the laws of physics. They are not something that just anyone can do or even learn to do without extensive training.

These abilities cannot be disrupted in combat, as spells can, and they generally do not provoke attacks of opportunity. Effects or areas that negate or disrupt magic have no effect on extraordinary abilities. They are not subject to dispelling, and they function normally in an antimagic field.

Using an extraordinary ability is usually not an action because most extraordinary abilities automatically happen in a reactive fashion. Those extraordinary abilities that are actions are standard actions unless otherwise noted.

They may break the laws of physics, but aren't something just anyone can learn to do without extensive training. Sound's awfully like Sword Magic, doesn't it?

Here's a bit from the description of Supernatural:

Supernatural abilities are magical and go away in an antimagic field

So I repeat, (Ex) is explicitly allowed to break physics. And Supernatural abilities are explicitly (somewhat) magical, going away under AMF.

And it shouldn't be, otherwise there is no meaningful reason why (ex) is (ex) and (su) is (su). If you try to tell me that ToB is mundane because someone decided to put an (ex) tag on it, I'm not going to believe you.

Ok, I didn't comment on the previous thread, b/c by the time I found it, it had already devolved into three people talking around each other without accomplishing anything... since there are fewer and shorter posts, I think I'll try adding my two cents...

On "Mundane": Mundane can be defined as "characterized by the practical, transitory, and ordinary : commonplace" synonym: day-to-day. What qualifies as mundane will vary from setting to setting, based on what is normally seen in the setting. This does admittedly pose a problem for the use of mundane in this thread, since in many dnd settings as seen at the table,* spellcasters of low-to-mid rank are mundane...
*Faerūn of gameplay is a often higher magic setting than Faerūn of the novels or even of the rulebooks... and other settings experience a similar shift.

On the Ex vs Su issue, it isn't just a matter of what tags - it is more importantly on how the ability is described. It is about the effect on the feel of the character and the setting that the writer (and presumably the player who chooses the class) is trying to achieve. And yes, the argument could be made that many times more time should be spent on describing the abilities to create that feel (in side bars in the book and/or at table).

rferries
2018-03-19, 02:58 AM
Ok, Some of the individual components are cool, and the way you chose to arrange the class components is interesting. You do realize that this has been done before (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?307285-The-Myth-Tier-1-quot-Mundane-quot-Challenge-Accepted)? As with the previous attempts, the problem is that if you succeed in reaching a goal of making a single high tier non-caster, you've negated the usefulness of all other non-casters by stepping all over their concepts... I'd be far more interested in a system of tier-raising additives that classes could use to level the playing field...

Yes I'm aware there have been many such attempts (though thanks for the link, I wasn't aware of that particular one - it was a pleasure to read it). However if we limited homebrew only to 100% original concepts this board wouldn't have had any posts for the past 10+ years haha. Good point about tiers; I see this class as being played only in a party of other high-tier classes (yes it makes traditional rogues obsolete, but you can build an adventurer in such as way as to fit any such archetype, minus specifics like sneak-attack). Your tier-raising approach is equally valid too of course, this is just an alternative.