INITIATIVE: my overly long and convoluted multi-choices proposal/ramble

[Blondie Jo]

Little introduction: I am a new dm (only play a couple of games until now with my friend, the game is 3.5 based), still in the process of reading all of the basic books. :smallredface:

Second little introduction: I started pondering on it because of the fighter class: initiative works using the DEX modifier and that in my opinion gives some classes a higher chance of starting than other and not really depending the way the players built their characters… Barbarians, bards, druids, rogues, mages, wizards and in some cases monks and rangers are characterized with a high DEX, while fighter, paladins and clerics are not. That makes so that the latter will probably have their turn later than the former and something bugged me: the FIGHTER starts later. I know that D&D is not a simple drunk-fist-fight-brawl-at-the-pub game, or more properly a drunk-sword&sorcery-fight-brawl-at-the-tavern game but bounding initiative to DEX doesn’t kinda takes away the urgency from the player/characters? Aren't Fighters and paladines classes train to fight? And clerics too should be if they are train for the battle field or even just to manage themselves during adventures.
I read online that some use the WIS modifier explaining that starting a fight is about "reading the room" and understanding that a fight is about to starts: Perception and Insight in fact work on WIS. That would helps paladins and clerics but the fighter is still left out (NO, I dont' have a fixation for this class, YUO have! Shut up! :biggrin:).

Third introduction: sorry for the lenght of the post. :smalltongue:

I read online that is one of the most discussed topic in regard of D&D and that there are different way of viewing and playing it so even if I’m still a newbie I try to came up with my own, my proposal is this:
Initiative = 1d20 + character lv /2 + stats modifier of the favorite action

“What’s favorite action?” you might say and I am glad you asked. :smallsmile:
Favorite action is something that the player decide at the creation of the character that their character is good at doing in a fight.
The choice can fall on Melee attack, Range attack, Spell casting or Movement.

My ideas is that at the beginning of the fight the players spell out their first action and if it is their favorite action their initiative gain a bonus equal to the modifier the action is base on: Melee attacks would so use the STR, Range attack would use DEX, Spells would use the modifier of the stats their class uses for spells (INT, WIS or CHA) and if your character’s favorite action is Double movement you would use the CON modifier.
If for example Conan the Barbarian’s favorite action is Melee attack and has a STR modifier of +2, that number is added to his initiative d20 roll if his first action in a fight is a melee attack; if Conan instead decides to run the hell away moving twice in his round (that damn filthy coward) he doesn’t get the +2, but instead uses the CON modifier, lest say +1.

Another possibility is that a player pick as a favorite action Attack they must choose a type of damage: slashing, piercing or bludgeoning. Again: if Conan’s player picked Attack-Slashing he will add his +2 if he is attacking with a sword but won't if he is using a spear.
For magic users I though to make them chose a school of magic to get their mod on top of their d20 roll: so if a player for their mage Merlin picked as favorite action SpellCasting-Illusion he will get his Int modifier of +2 if he casts Silence image but not in case wants to use a Fireball.
Another possibility is to decide on a component of the spell: somatic, material or verbal: again Merlin picked SpellCasting-Somatic he will have his +2 Int modifier in case decides to use Ania shape but not for Hold person or for Block doors.

I don't think I will inflict this to my player but I was curius of your opinions. Any thoughts? Any question? And most of all: suggestion?

[johnbragg]

You're adding complexity where it doesn't do much.

The initiative modifiers (DEX, Improved Initiative mostly) get you maybe +8 on a d20 roll. That d20 roll is a huge spread from 1-20 with no modifiers, or say 9-28 with Improved Initiative and +4 DEX.

So initiative is actually pretty random. High Dexterity pushes the RNG (random number generator) a little bit, Improved Initiative pushes it a little bit. It takes both to really make much difference. I actually don't even roll for the monsters anymore when I have more than 2 or 3, I just sprinkle them evenly over the 1-20 spread. After the surprise round, it doesn't really matter--everyone goes every round, everyone has to wait for everyone else. A 7 and a 27 are only actually different on the first round.

Ah, you're talking 5E. So Improved Initiative isn't a thing, as far as I know. Advantage/Disadvantage is a bigger factor than DEX vs other stats.

[Goaty14]

Before I start:
Grod's Law: You cannot and should not balance bad mechanics by making them annoying to use

Now would be a nice place to stop instead of adding a whole new initiative subsystem... but I like arguing :smallredface:


I started pondering on it because of the fighter class: initiative works using the DEX modifier and that in my opinion gives some classes a higher chance of starting than other and not really depending the way the players built their characters… Barbarians, bards, druids, rogues, mages, wizards and in some cases monks and rangers are characterized with a high DEX, while fighter, paladins and clerics are not.

1) There is no "mage" in 3.5 2) What makes you think a barbarian is going to have a higher dex than a fighter? Sure, they could, but dex is equally advantageous for both classes. Improved Initiative is a fighter bonus feat, while barbarians don't get bonus feats. 3) Druids and some bards also don't have an emphasis on dex (druids can start ignoring their dex by lvl 5, and have 1 dex without penalty at lvl 8). 4) Is this even a problem? I mean, I'd personally consider it a benefit that the wizard throws down a fireball before the fighter gets up in melee. Clerics can do just fine not going first anyways.


but bounding initiative to DEX doesn’t kinda takes away the urgency from the player/characters?

Taking away urgency? Believe me, if a black dragon drops down into a tavern full of level 1 PCs, there will be PLENTY of player urgency.


Aren't Fighters and paladines classes train to fight? And clerics too should be if they are train for the battle field or even just to manage themselves during adventures.
Indeed they are. They aren't quite trained to react, and if they are, they probably have Improved Initiative.

I read online that some use the WIS modifier explaining that starting a fight is about "reading the room" and understanding that a fight is about to starts: Perception and Insight in fact work on WIS. That would helps paladins and clerics but the fighter is still left out

1) "Some people I read about online" is not written in the rules. 2) Perception and Insight are not 3.5 skills. Even if they were, players could still have ranks in them (regardless of class).


I read online that is one of the most discussed topic in regard of D&D and that there are different way of viewing and playing it so even if I’m still a newbie I try to came up with my own, my proposal is this:
Initiative = 1d20 + character lv /2 + stats modifier of the favorite action

Favorite action is pretty misleading because it implied (to me anyways) that players got extra actions. Also, didn't you mention at the beginning that the problem was fighter/paladin/cleric didn't have a high enough initiative? Then, if that's the case, why does this apply to all classes? This looks like a straight buff, without fixing any problems


My ideas is that at the beginning of the fight the players spell out their first action and if it is their favorite action their initiative gain a bonus equal to the modifier the action is base on: Melee attacks would so use the STR, Range attack would use DEX, Spells would use the modifier of the stats their class uses for spells (INT, WIS or CHA) and if your character’s favorite action is Double movement you would use the CON modifier.
If for example Conan the Barbarian’s favorite action is Melee attack and has a STR modifier of +2, that number is added to his initiative d20 roll if his first action in a fight is a melee attack; if Conan instead decides to run the hell away moving twice in his round (that damn filthy coward) he doesn’t get the +2, but instead uses the CON modifier, lest say +1.

Another possibility is that a player pick as a favorite action Attack they must choose a type of damage: slashing, piercing or bludgeoning. Again: if Conan’s player picked Attack-Slashing he will add his +2 if he is attacking with a sword but won't if he is using a spear.
For magic users I though to make them chose a school of magic to get their mod on top of their d20 roll: so if a player for their mage Merlin picked as favorite action SpellCasting-Illusion he will get his Int modifier of +2 if he casts Silence image but not in case wants to use a Fireball.
Another possibility is to decide on a component of the spell: somatic, material or verbal: again Merlin picked SpellCasting-Somatic he will have his +2 Int modifier in case decides to use Ania shape but not for Hold person or for Block doors.

No. Don't even. So what you're saying here is that is conan the barbarian will have a different initiative bonus from round 1 than on round 2? What happens if him switching around initiative like musical chairs changes his order in combat? That's just too confusing, and it isn't worth the pencil lead to change every round.

The second idea is even weirder. I mean, why should the barbarian pumping STR get penalized for attacking with his bow instead of his greatsword, not to mention the disadvantage he already is in (a barbarian pumping STR will naturally have less DEX, and be less likely to land the shot).

Personally, I think that this is a bad idea for the following reasons:
-It changes initiative like playing musical chairs: Any player switching actions in a round would switch their initiative, and keeping track is hard enough as it is.
-Nerfs mundane characters and buffs wizards: The stereotypical wizard at mid-high levels can reasonably go whole encounters by doing nothing but casting spells. (Heck, a wizard could go a whole encounter by doing nothing but casting conjuration spells!) Mundane classes on the other hand probably would end up doing more diverse actions.
-You identified a problem (heavy armor classes go later than light armor classes) and then gave everybody a straight-up bonus to initiative. The difference in initiative still remains, and thus the problem.

Here's what should be done to fix it:

Initiative

Add one-half your BAB to your initiative.


That's it.
-The fighter and other mundane classes that don't have a focus on DEX (Fighter, Barbarian, Paladin) now have a higher initiative boost that still exists, but not as well, for classes that already have a DEX focus (Rogue and...?). Casting classes won't die or anything if they go last. A 1st level wizard could have a +11 to initiative if he wanted, albeit using a 1st level slot.

[Blondie Jo]

First of all thank for the answer, I now get that I was overthinking it more that a bit.

Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant
Grod's Law: You cannot and should not balance bad mechanics by making them annoying to use That is going to be usefull info. As I said i'm not going to inflict it to my player.
In anycase i feel the need to explain some point that were expressed poorly on my behalf (just explanation, not a defence i swear).

There is no "mage" in 3.5
urgency
Perception and Insight are not 3.5 skills I can respond to all of this very simply: sorry, my bad. i was back-translating from italian to english: i meant Wizard not "mage", meant Spot and Sense motive and not "Perception" and "Insight" respectively, on that note:
Ah, you're talking 5E. the mistake comes from the fact that i watch a 5e game on youtube i got those confuced. And for "urgency" i meant building... as in "The process of building a character". Honestly don't know why i thought of "urgency" at that moment.

2) What makes you think a barbarian is going to have a higher dex than a fighter?
3) Druids and some bards also don't have an emphasis on dex I was presuming (hoping to use this word correctly) those stuff for the basic lv 1 classes feats (fighters, clerics and paladines get proficiency in any armor while barbarians, druids exc. do not, and in the book for all classes is suggested to consider Dex as one of the higher stats, the only exception being paladines and clerics and for fighter it is said "Dexterity is important for fighters who want to be good archers or who want access to certain Dexterity oriented feats, but the heavy armor that fighters usually wear reduces the benefit of a very high Dexterity score.".

"Some people I read about online" is not written in the rules Again, my bad. Should have label the topic homebrew and not 3.5.

Favorite action is pretty misleading because it implied (to me anyways) that players got extra actions The idea is that the player picks a favorite action the same way picks a feat or a skill at character creation, It will influence the fights but not grant extra action.

Also, didn't you mention at the beginning that the problem was fighter/paladin/cleric didn't have a high enough initiative? Then, if that's the case, why does this apply to all classes? This looks like a straight buff, without fixing any problems
You identified a problem (heavy armor classes go later than light armor classes) and then gave everybody a straight-up bonus to initiative. The difference in initiative still remains, and thus the problem.I would not consider it a buff becouse is not specific for cleric or fighter only, but is something that the players are presented with and can pick how they like so i don't think i was stacking bonuses on everybody therefor keeping the initial differences (or maybe i don't understand what buff in general stands for).

So what you're saying here is that is conan the barbarian will have a different initiative bonus from round 1 than on round 2? Oh no! That would be a nightmare, that i get! Initiative works in a circle right? Conan goes, merling goes, than the 2 goblins, that Robin the ranger, than the golem, Round 1 is complited and in round 2 we follow the same order, order that is decides at the beginnig of the fight with d20 +dex. What i was trying to describe is another method to start the fight that keep the original circularity (so far so good i hope) but that places the character in an order not define by dex: the order in the initial round will be kept regardless of switching from "Favorite action" to "not favorite action".

The second idea is even weirder. I mean, why should the barbarian pumping STR get penalized for attacking with his bow instead of his greatsword, not to mention the disadvantage he already is in (a barbarian pumping STR will naturally have less DEX, and be less likely to land the shot). I don't think i get this... sorry.

Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant
Initiative
Add one-half your BAB to your initiative. I thought about that but bugged my mind the fact that sound like a patch for the problem... but again i'm overthinking it and so ...

You're adding complexity where it doesn't do much yeah i'm gulty of that.

[Goaty14]

Oh ok.

So what you're getting at is that each character gets a bonus to initiative based on their highest ability score, instead of dex? (Unless it is already dex, lol). To which I'm not really seeing too much impact excluding the fact that SAD* classes have 1 less stat to worry about. I mean, I guess it's not really fixing the problem because it would allow classes that don't get heavy armor proficiency to get a higher initiative bonus than they would without the buff. I.e a first level druid probably has a 18 (+4) in Wis, and a 8 (-1) in Dex. Without the buff, the druid would have a -1 dex penalty to initiative, but with it, he'd have a +4 bonus to initiative.\\

I would change this to a feat that allows STR-to-initiative and leave it like that, given that any class in heavy armor is a melee class, and thus has a high STR already. Something along the lines of...

Mighty Offense [Fighter]
Your combat training has allowed you to get into fights not by your swiftness, but by sheer, brute force.

Prerequisites: STR 13, Improved Initiative

Benefit: You add your STR modifier in place of your DEX modifier for initiative checks.

*Single Attribute Dependency. Usually a term reserved for full-casting classes (Cleric, Druid, Wizard, etc) that only really need to care about increasing their casting stat above all else. The favored action thing would give them a higher initiative than they would normally need.

[Climowitz]

An easy fix would be: Initiative = 1d20 + Reflex + 1/2 Attack Bonus. That should get the fighting classes a better chance at starting the round earlier.

[Blondie Jo]

I mean, I guess it's not really fixing the problem because it would allow classes that don't get heavy armor proficiency to get a higher initiative bonus than they would without the buff. I.e a first level druid probably has a 18 (+4) in Wis, and a 8 (-1) in Dex. Without the buff, the druid would have a -1 dex penalty to initiative, but with it, he'd have a +4 bonus to initiative. yeah I get it now... plus my idea would allowed classes that don't have proficiency in heavy armor to use it without a penalty in fight...


An easy fix would be: Initiative = 1d20 + Reflex + 1/2 Attack Bonus. That should get the fighting classes a better chance at starting the round earlier. I thouth about that but i don't know... why would a wizard's position in initiative depend on attack bonus, which to me sound kind of physical? A fighter BAB at lv 3 is +3, a wizard would get that only at lv 6... so an equally leveled (read used to battle) wizard would have less chance to start a fight than a fighter, that's why i included lv/2 in the addiction of the original formula... That's why i thouth about "favorite action": if the wizard is casting a spell use int, if he doesn't his/her order action is different... but i now get is problematic/confusing/too-complicated...

I'm starting to think i looked at this "problem" the wrong way... the feat idea is more in line with what i'm looking for becouse is connected to both character's experience (read level) AND player choice (what i want my character to be/be-good-at)... but a feat isn't IT, because it's added-in to the characters rather than something "built-in" them like stats are (or at least to me that's how kind of sound to me)...

[Goaty14]

An easy fix would be: Initiative = 1d20 + Reflex + 1/2 Attack Bonus. That should get the fighting classes a better chance at starting the round earlier.

Reflex looks really weird in the sense that a Cloak of Resistance would also boost your initiative. Reflex also only really goes to help rogueish classes, which don't need the buff.

[Climowitz]

I feel like the speed of reaction is a key element into the ability of starting a fight and also the fighting proficiency or prowess should influence the capability of starting a fight and reading it. While wizards have spells like nerveskitter shouldn't have a problem keeping up. Rogueish may feel buffed but fighters also.