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Guyviroth
2018-04-02, 07:06 AM
Hey all. I'm planning on doing a total conversion of the old WoW tabletop that used the 3.5 ruleset, and this is what I have at the moment. I was hoping if you guys could give some critique around balancing or any other changes that you think would be better.

drive(dot)google(dot)com/open?id=1HdYSnwUWhokaRL3gQnPrMt5LYzgBNyJ-

NOTE: The linked PDF is out of date, and mostly contains flavour text, the Shaman class table, and the shaman spell list.


Class Features

Hit Points
Hit Dice: 1d6 per shaman level
Hit Points at 1at Level: 6 + your Constitution modifier
Hit Points at Higher Levels: 1d6 (or 4) + your Constitution modifier per shaman level after 1st

Proficiencies
Armor: Light armor
Weapons: Simple weapons
Tools: None

Saving Throws: Wisdom, Intelligence
Skills: Choose two skills from Arcana, History, Medicine, Nature, and Religion

Equipment
You start with the following equipment, in addition to the equipment granted by your background:

• (a) a sling and 20 bullets; or (b) a quarterstaff; or (c) a mace
• (a) a component pouch; or (b) a dungeoneer’s pack
• (a) a scholar’s pack; or (b) a dungeroneer’s pack
• Leather armor, and any simple weapon


Primordial
Your know Primordial, the language of the elements and the elemental plane. You can speak, read and write the language, as well as use your magic to leave hidden messages. You and others who know this language automatically spot such a message. Others can spot the message’s presence with a successful DC 15 Wisdom (Perception) check, but can’t decipher it without magic.

Primordial Patron
Choose an element type: Fire, Water, Air, Earth, or Spirit. Each element is detailed at the end of the class description. Your choice grants you elemental spells and other features when you choose it at 1st level.

Elemental Spells
Each elemental has a list of spells---its elemental spells---that you gain at the shaman levels noted in the elemental description. Once you gain an elemental spell, you always have it prepared, and it doesn’t count against the number of spells you can prepare each day.

Spellcasting
With the power of the elements, you can cast spells to deliver destruction to your enemies or to aid your allies. See chapter 10 of the Player’s Handbook for the general rules of spellcasting and Appendix I for the shaman spell list.

Cantrips
At 1st level, you know two cantrips of your choice from the shaman spell list. You learn additional shaman cantrips of your choice at higher levels, as shown in the Cantrips Known column of the Shaman table.

Preparing and Casting Spells
The Shaman table shows how many spells slots you have to cast your spells of 1st level and higher. To cast one of these shaman spells, you must expend a slot of the spell’s level or higher. You regain all expended spell slots when you finish a long rest.
You prepare the list of shaman spells that are available for you to cast, choosing from the shaman spell list. When you do so, choose a number of shaman spells equal to your Wisdom modifier + your shaman level (minimum of one spell). The spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots.
For example, if you are a 3rd-level shaman, you have four 1st-level and two 2nd-level spell slots. With a Wisdom of 16, your list of prepared spells can include six spells of 1st or 2nd level, in any combination. If you prepare the 1st-level spell burning hands, you can cast it using a 1st-level or 2nd-level slot. Casting the spell doesn’t remove it from your list of prepared spells.
You can also change your list of prepared spells when you finish a long rest. Preparing a new list of shaman spells requires time spent in meditation and communion with your patron: at least 1 minute per spell level with each spell on your list.

Spellcasting Ability
Wisdom if your spellcasting ability for your shaman spells, since your magic draws upon your attunement to your elemental patron. You use your Wisdom whenever a spell refers to your spellcasting ability. In addition, you use your Wisdom modifier when setting the saving throw DC for a shaman spell you cast and when making an attack roll with one.

Spell save DC = 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Wisdom modifier
Spell attack modifier = your proficiency bonus + your Wisdom modifier

Primordial Path
At 3rd level, you choose to follow a primordial path: Elemental Path, Earthwarden Path, or Spiritual Path, all three detailed at the end of the class description. Your choice grants you a feature at 3rd level, and again at 6th, 10th and 14th level.

Ability Score Improvement
When you reach 4th level, and again at 8th, 12, 16th, and 19th level, you can increase one ability score of your choice by 2, or you can increase two ability scores of your choice by 1. As normal, you can’t increase an ability score above 20 using this feature.

Primordial Aid
At 15th level, you can cast Conjure Minor Elementals and Conjure Elemental without somantic or material components. The cast time of these spells is now 1 Action.
In addition, elementals summoned by these spells are always friendly to you and party members, but disappear when the shaman loses concentration.

World Shaman
At 20th level, you ignore the somantic and material components of all shaman spells that deal fire, cold, lightning and thunder damage, and all shaman spells that heal.
In addition, you can an additional feature based on your Primordial Path.

Elemental Path: Twice per long rest, you can cast Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Tidal Wave, and Wall of Sand as cantrips at their lowest level.

Earthwarden Path: You can cast Elemental Weapon and Haste as a Bonus Action. In addition, the damage die ofElemental Weapon increases to d8.

Spiritual Path: Twice per long rest, you can cast Mass Healing Word as a cantrip at its lowest level. In addition, the healing die of Mass Healing Word increases to d6.


Primordial Paths

Primordial Empowerment
When you choose this path at 3rd level, once per short rest, you can use a 5th-level spell as though they were one spell level lower.
For example, a 5th-level shaman with the 3rd-level shaman spell fireball prepared can use it with a 2nd-level spell slot. The spell will still do 8d6 fire damage despite being used in a 2nd-level spell slot.

Elemental Gathering
At 6th level, all shaman spells that deal fire, cold, lightning, or thunder damage gain an additional damage die.
For example, a fireball spell used in a 4th-level spell slot will deal 10d6 fire damage, 11d6 in a 5th-level spell slot, 12d6 at 6th, etc.

Echo of the Elements
At 10th level, once per short rest, you can cast a second spell that deals damage as a bonus action.

Elemental Overcharge
At 14th level, once per short rest, when you cast a spell that deals fire, cold, lightning or thunder damage, you can have that spell deal its maximum damage.

Bonus Proficiency
When you choose this path at 3rd level, you gain proficiency with medium armor and all martial weapons.

Stormlash
When you make an attack action with a melee weapon, you also deal lightning damage equal to your Wisdom modifier.
You can also score a critical hit on a natural 19. At 14th level, you score a critical hit on a natural 18.

Ghostwalk
At 6th level, you gain an extra 10 feet of movement speed.

Windfury
At 10th level, when you make an attack action with a melee weapon, you can make up to two additional attacks as a bonus action.

Earthbreaker
At 14th level, you have advantage on attack rolls while wielding a weapon that is empowered by the Flame Blade, Magic Weapon, Spiritual Weapon, or Elemental Weapon spell.

Healing Rain
Starting at 3rd level, once per long rest, you can create restorative rain that heals allies under it.
As an action, you can raise your hands to the sky to call upon the elements of water to cause a light drizzle, healing all allies under it for 1d6 plus your shaman level. The area is a 20 foot circle, increased by 5ft for each level above 3rd level.
The healing of this feature increases to 1d8 at 7th level, to 1d10 at 11th level, and to 2d6 at 15th level.

Swift Aid
At 6th level, once per short rest, when you cast a single-target, non-damaging spell on an ally, you can cast the same spell of the same level on a second ally without expending a spell slot.

Chain Healing
At 10th level, once per short rest, when you cast a single-target healing spell, you can cast the same spell of that level on two additional targets within 30 feet or the first without expending a spell slot to do so.

Ancestral Awakening
At 14th level, twice per short rest, whenever you heal with a spell or feature, you can have it heal the maximum amount.

Elemental Patron

Patron Spells
1st - Firebolt
3rd - Flame Blade, Scorching Ray
5th - Elemental Weapon, Fireball
7th - Elemental Bane, Wall of Fire
9th - Flame Strike, Immolation

Fire Resistance
When you choose this patron, you gain resistance to fire damage.

Patron Spells
1st - Ray of Frost
3rd - Lesser Restoration, Snilloc's Snowball Storm
5th - Tidal Wave, Water Walk
7th - Control Weather, Watery Sphere
9th - Cone of Cold, Maelstrom

Cold Resistance
When you choose this patron, you gain resistance to cold damage.

Patron Spells
1st - Thunderclap
3rd - Gust of Wind, Misty Step
5th - Lightning Bolt, Wind Wall
7th - Storm Sphere, Conjure Minor Elementals
9th - Cloudkill, Control Winds

Storm Resistance
When you choose this patron, you gain resistances to lightning and thunder damage.

Patron Spells
1st - Mold Earth
3rd - Earth Bind, Shatter
5th - Erupting Earth, Meld Into Stone
7th - Stone Shape, Stoneskin
9th - Transmute Rock, Wall of Stone

Force Resistance
When you choose this patron, you gain resistance to force damage.

Patron Spells
1st - Thaumaturgy
3rd - Prayer of Healing, Spiritual Weapon
5th - Glyph of Healing, Mass Healing Word
7th - Banishment, Divination
9th - Greater Restoration, Mass Cure Wounds

Death Resistance
When you choose this patron, you gain resistance to necrotic damage.


Thanks for taking the time to read this.

clash
2018-04-02, 09:33 AM
so a few things at a first read:

Saving throws: Should only have one of Wisdom, Con, and Dex, and one of Int, Cha or Str

Primordial Path:
Primordial Empowerment: This is OP. If it is included it should be very limited, maybe 1/short rest and should never give you early access to spells.

Elemental Gathering: This seems strong as well. I would have it add wisdom mod to damage, or add one damage dice to the spell, not one per spell level.

Echo of the Elements: This is also strong. It is an improvement on sorcerer quicken spell, at will. Again limit it or change the ability all together.

Elemental Overcharge: This is probably fine. Tempest clerics get the same ability at a much lower level but more restricted in damage types.

Earthwarden Path:
Stormlash: There is no offhand in 5e. I would leave that ability out and just give extra attack at 6th like most martial subclasses do.

Ghostwalk: I would move this to level 10.

Windfury: This should be removed. This class as written gets 3 attacks sooner than the fighter.

Earthbreaker: This seems like a good, 2nd buff to weapon attacks.

Spiritual Path:
Healing Rain: This should be once per long rest

Swift Aid: This one is at will twinning of friendly buffs which is OP. This should have some sort of limitation or limit it to just instantaneous spells would restrict a lot of it's power.

Chain Healing: This seems odd given the level 6 ability. I would combine these into one ability that is less powerful and come up with a separate ability.

Ancestral Awakening: This is fine given what life cleric gets as a capstone.

Patron of Earth:
Weapon Resistance: This is very OP at level 1 and becomes nearly useless at high levels of play.

This class seems mostly fine if not strong in it's subclasses. It is really missing an identity though. Take away the subclasses and you are left with almost nothing to define the class.

Guyviroth
2018-04-02, 11:23 AM
Hey, Clash. Thanks for taking the time to giving a first pass at the class. I made several changes that have not been updated on my drive yet, as I want to make as many changes as I need to before uploading the final version.

Primordial Path
Primordial Empowerment: Is now limited to once per short rest, and no longer gives early access to spells.

Elemental Gathering: Now only deals 1 additional hit dice; Fireball deals 10d6 at 4th slot, 11d6 at 5th instead of 12d6, 12d6 at 6th instead of 14d6, etc.

Echo of the Elements: Is now limited to once per short rest, and only affects spells that deal damage.


Earthwarden Path
Stormlash: No longer attacks with offhand, and instead deals Lightning Damage equal to your Wis Modifier on a hit.

Ghostwalk: This was pretty much taken from the Barbarian, who gets this at 6th level. Movement speed has been reduced from 15ft to 10ft.

Windfury: This was intended to essentially be a Monk's Flurry of Blows, since the shaman never gets an Extra Attack feature. Now reads: "At 10th level, when you make an the attack action with a melee weapon, you can make up to two additional attacks as a bonus action."

Earthbreaker: Spiritual Weapon has been added to the list. Because I'm a donut and forgot it the first time round.


Spiritual Path
Healing Rain: Is now once per long rest

Swift Aid: Can now only be used once per short rest

Chain Healing: Has been rewritten. Now reads: "At 10th level, once per short rest, when you cast healing spell, you can cast the same spell of that level a second time without expending a spell slot to do so." This can now only effect healing spells, leaving Swift Aid to be used for either single-target healing or buffing.


Patron of Earth
Weapon Resistance: has been renamed to "Force Resistance" and graints resistance to bludgeoning and force damage (may leave it at force damage. Gonna have to playtest some combat scenarios).


Thanks for taking the time to give me some feedback on this, really appreciate it.

JNAProductions
2018-04-03, 08:12 PM
Gets two strong saves. Why?

Primordial Aid is INSANE. One action casting time might be okay, but non-concentration? You're a better minionmancer than a Necromancer!

World Shaman is also insane. Note that ONLY the Barbarian gets to break stat caps, and neither Strength nor Constitution affect their save DCs. Wisdom? That's your CASTING STAT.

And getting 3rd level spells as cantrips is also quite broken.

Primordial Empowerment is also way too good.

Elemental Gathering is way too good.

Echo Of The Elements is way too good.

Elemental Overcharge is probably okay, though.

Stormlash is too good-you get extra attack at level 3, only slightly weakened. Not to mention you get Improved Crits.

Ghostwalk isn't nearly as bad as some of the other stuff, but feels excessive anyway.

Windfury gives you either 3 Greatsword attacks or 5 light weapon attacks (1 base, +2 for Windfury, +1 for Stormlash, +1 (not adding ability mod) as a bonus action for dual wielding) which is insane.

Earthbreaker is insane-it's free advantage, basically.

Healing Rain is unlimited out of combat healing. That's okay... At level 18, when you've invested 18 levels into Theurgy Wizard. Not at level 3.

Swift Aid is insane.

Chain Healing feels less broken, but is still too good.

Ancestral Awakening feels too good, but not as much as the other stuff.

The first three elements are fine.

Earth is FAR too good. You should not hand out resistance to non-magical weapon damage at level 3. War Clerics get that too... At level 17.



Overall, this is a horribly broken class, in the overpowered sense. So, instead of trying to tone it down from where it is now, I'd like to ask you this:

What is the concept of this class? What should its core features be? Strengths? Weaknesses?

Once you get that down, I can help make a more balanced class. But right now, it's just a ridiculously OP caster.

Guyviroth
2018-04-04, 06:28 AM
Hey, JNA. Thanks for taking the time to reply to this.

So, skipping over the majority of the post to get down to the golden question: In terms of their combat role, the shaman is supposed to be sort of like the Paladin in which it can build around a certain role depending on what Oath (or in the shaman's case, their "Path") is chosen: they can be either backline offense with Elemental, frontline offense with Earthwarden, or support/healer with Spiritual. In terms of their overarching theme, shamans are essentially like Warlocks, except they make their pact with a being from the elemental plane as opposed to the outer planes.

In terms of strengths and weaknesses... I'm not entirely sure how to respond to this, as I've never really thought about this kind of stuff when looking at existing classes, though that is entirely of my own ignorance, I'll admit.

On a side note: World Shaman shouldn't have had the stat increase; I took that out a while ago but I guess I ended up attaching the older page to the PDF document by accident.


Anyway, I really appreciate your critique on this, and would like to take you up on your offer of developing a better shaman class if the offer is still there.

thegreatone5224
2018-04-04, 10:44 AM
Before I get started I just want to say that this guide (https://www.reddit.com/r/UnearthedArcana/comments/73sfp1/class_design_101_a_fundamental_guide_to_5th/) is a huge help when it comes to creating a class in order to keep it balanced with the rest of the classes. The first two levels should define the tone for the class and its entirety.

Overall Score: 7.1

Layout/Formatting: 8/10
I think the formatting for the pdf is amazing and the artwork is pretty great. There are, however, a few things I would change. The class table text is fully bold and for some reason the text looks blurry compared to the document. The font size for the spell list is significantly larger than the rest of the document and larger than the spell lists in the official books. Lastly, the layout of the PrimordialPatron section just feels off to me. Where I would expect a table to appear actually ends up on the next page or on the other side of the page.

Wording: 8.5/10
The wording of the class is quite good and I don't really feel that I have any questions as to the intent of each feature compared to how it seems to work. When you are explaining spell casting it references Druid levels, this should probably be corrected to Shaman levels.
Additionally, Primordial Aid doesn't mention if you need to know the spell to cast it as this feature would amount to nothing if you didn't learn the spell during your journey.
Finally, World Shaman doesn't seem to have its wording updated as it references using a swift action. I'm guessing your expecting this to become a reaction.

Balance/Mechanics 5/10
The layout and theme are fantastic for the class. Each archetype has a clear purpose when related to the class. The problem is that each archetype feels like it overshadows others of a similar nature. The class as a whole is very powerful but at least the encroachment on other classes is minimal.

Base Class
This class' hit die should probably be a d6. I say this because each class that has full magic with a d8 hit die has a specific single theme for their spell list. The shaman, however, has a spell list equivalent to a sorcerer or wizard. They have damaging spells for every possible situation along with fantastic supporting capability. I believe this easily warrants using a d6 for the hit die instead the d8.

You literally get nothing of note at the 2nd and 18th level. There shouldn't be any dead levels and you should be rewarded with something of significance every time you level up.

Given that the first two levels define your class and gives it its identity, the identity is rather lacking. Right now, until 3rd level, you only have the ability to speak primordial and cast spell. This is quite boring.

Primordial Patron: These are generally okay with the exception of earth. You should look at features other classes have when granting features to your class. For example, the earliest I can remember being granted resistance from a feature is at level 6 with a storm sorcerer.

Primordial Aid: As far as I know, every spell or feature relating to spells will require to have one of the three components in order to cast the spell. I highly recommend not removing concentration from spells unless you plan on nerfing it to make up for it.

World Shaman: Again, you shouldn't remove all components from spells. Trivializing existing cantrips by making level spells cantrips shouldn't be something you can do as much as you want. I could see allowing you to cast at will a few times before requiring a short rest. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe any class is able to generate unlimited healing whenever they want to. Healing spells should also have a limit to how often they can be used. Where is the challenge when you go into every encounter with full health? The game loses its sense of danger. Even if this is a level 20 ability it is a bit absurd.
Additionally, breaking the stat cap shouldn't be a thing when the stat when you're breaking is your bread and butter.

Elemental Path
Elemental Gathering: This feature is crazy good. You should limit this to spells of the 5th-level or lower and limit the number of spells that can be cast in this manner. Being able to cast a 9th-level spell more than once is crazy strong when no other class in the game can do so.

Elemental Gathering: This feature is fine if you limited how often it can be used.

Echo of the Elements: Again, features like this shouldn't have unlimited uses. Keeping the unlimited uses would make this capstone good.

Earthwarden Path
While the features are generally not soo bad, the archetype as a whole puts the fighter's champion archetype to shame. While not all bad, you should consider not completely overshadowing an archetype when its only purpose in life is to deal tons of damage.

Earthbreak: This is absurdly powerful. You should be granted advantage for an entire combat just because you cast a spell that further buffs your damage. The spells may be concentration based but you can pretty much ensure that you don't lose concentration with the warcaster feat.

Spiritual Path
Healing Rain: Let us take a second to think about this. You can use his an unlimited number of times in and out of combat which means you will always go into encounters at full health. This means it is just as strong as your base classes 20th level healing feature.

Swift Aid: If you made this expend a spell slot this would be fine. It would also be fine if it was like once per short rest. This is a very strong 6th level feature.

Chain Healing: Take a look at Chain Lightning, it does the same thing and its a 6th level spell meaning you will only be able to cast it a handful of times. Use the same idea for Chain Healing and rework it a little.

Ancestral Awakening: Double the amount of dice? Why just save time and max the potential of the dice? Doubling the amount just makes the new average roll the max roll of the normal ability. Keep in mind that as it stand right now this ability is pretty much the same thing but slightly strong than the 17th level feature of a life domain cleric. If your going to get the feature earlier than other features that do the same thing you should bring it down a bit to compensate.


Overall
I feel like this class has a lot of potential but is plague with balance issues. This is the definition of a hybrid class that is as good if not better at each job then those that are dedicated towards the same aspect. With sufficient revisions I could see this being a class that people enjoy playing.

Guyviroth
2018-04-04, 03:42 PM
Hail, Great One! I had a looky look at that guide that you sent me, and I am quite humbled by it. I never really thought that class building was so intricate, and I have learned a lot from it.

I was sure that I had covered every level and surprised that I missed out 2nd and 18th level. Thanks for bringing that to my attention.

I have made some changes based and your, and everyone else's, feedback, and I have compiled them into the first post. I left the link to the PDF file for people to reference the Shaman Table and Shaman Spell list.

I have had a few ideas on what could be the "rocks" and "ribbons" of the base shaman. One of them being able to speak with their Primordial Patron as though using the Clairvoyance spell once per day, but then that's sort of stepping on to the Totem Barbarian's toes. Kinda hard to think of certain things that haven't already been covered by existing classes, actually...

In any case, thanks for taking the time to post here, you've really helped me out.


EDIT: I've also had an idea of tying each Primordial Path feature to a resource that acts like Monk Ki Point or Sorcerer Sorcery Points, called Overload Points (Yes, the abbreviation is "OP", the joke is not lost on me.)

So for example, the current Elemental Gathering is: "At 6th level, all shaman spells that deal fire, cold, lightning, or thunder damage gain an additional damage die."

It would then be: "At 6th level, when the shaman casts a spell that deal fire, cold, lightning, or thunder damage, they may spend Overload Points equal to the spell's level to gain an additional damage die."

Let me know what you think of it.

thegreatone5224
2018-04-04, 07:46 PM
Glad to be of some help!

I think using the feature from totem barbarian is fine. I think using overload points to fuel features is fine to. This would allow each features to be used multiple times at the cost of others allowing a more personalized play style. You just need to consider how many will be considered balanced? It might also be reasonable to just use overload dice similar to bardic inspiration or superiority die. Then when you add dice to a spell it could start low and end high.

Morphic tide
2018-04-05, 10:08 PM
Overall, this is a horribly broken class, in the overpowered sense. So, instead of trying to tone it down from where it is now, I'd like to ask you this:

What is the concept of this class? What should its core features be? Strengths? Weaknesses?

Once you get that down, I can help make a more balanced class. But right now, it's just a ridiculously OP caster.

The core feature of the Shaman that separates it from other classes, in World of Warcraft (I know not what the RPG has, and only noticed the Google Drive "link" (we have hyperlinks, damnit!) after pretty much entirely finishing this post. Thought it was questioning how to make one), is Totems. Which solves several problems with ongoing effects that are present with the Shaman by offering targets for enemies to go after to shut down the buffs without extra dice rolls and neatly streamlines multiconcentration and powerhouse effect balancing by offloading it to squishy targets to defend. This causes Shamans to be woefully behind in PvP... basically forever. Might still be. Totems are way too fragile in-game.

Some effects cannot exist, at least as normal spells, owing to D&D-isims, like the Mana Tide Totem and Water Shield spell capacity restoration, as well as Windfury due to granting extra attacks based on previous attacks made. Think Lightning Kukri from 3.5. Yes, the exploit, it triggered off itself and whacked twice per trigger, you literally had people one-shotting with autoattacks. Dubiously viable is the self heal on attack, which has problems owing to excessive resource efficiency.

Specialization-to-subclass wise, there's a small problem: Enhancement Shaman has had three very different versions (tank, melee weapon DPS and melee caster DPS), Restoration Shaman has historically had two separate party/raid roles (healer and buffer) and Elemental Shaman has always had two things in one spec (Elementals and direct damage). This is a good thing from a lengthy homebrew period perspective, as it gives seven different possible subclasses based directly on existing gameplay. The problem arises from the overlap in needed effects, the Enhancement Shaman's three versions use something like half the same core abilities.

Offloading it to spells is a problem because, in combination with abnormal Concentration capabilities being needed to get it to work properly, you recreate the very situation responsible for the old CoDzilla and, by extension, the entire point of introducing the current Concentration mechanic in the first place. The tank-version Enhancement Shaman had a minimum of six ongoing effects at all times in combat, and of them at least three were mechanically necessary to make it function properly, owing to surrounding mechanics. In 5e, you still more or less require two ongoing effects and can't have them use the regular Concentration, because 5e's Concentration was specifically made to exclude buff-based melee characters to kill CoDzilla as a possibility, saving WotC from their own potential incompetence.

To answer your bolded questions, piece by piece, with the transition based on as-in-WoW Shaman instead of... whatever guyviroth was going for:

What is the concept of this class? A primal caster focused entirely on the Elemental/Spiritual end of the idea, abdicating the role of nature-as-biosphere-related magic to the Druid in its source material. The particulars are that the power is derived from making deals with spirits to gain elemental powers, channeling them through inscribed and infused objects known as Totems. Totems are, usually, multi-purpose, but dedicated to particular forces, such as the basic elements or certain types of spirits, and can only produce effects in line with what the force they channel represents. For example, Water totems provide healing and reinvigorating, while Fire totems are sources of destruction (and Frost/Cold Resistance).

What should its core features be? Pact Magic spellcasting and Long Rest Totems, with the Totems holding Concentration effects and casting high-level spells (replacing the Warlock 6th-9th method with the class mechanic, with the use of a totem on a high level spell being a single-use affair) on a relatively fragile secondary target, able to either usually survive one level-appropriate attack or requiring at least two, to both allow multiple Concentration effects and bypass the Concentration mechanic as it normally is, unless Concentration effects beyond Totem coverage are active. Medium Armor proficiency, as they usually bottom out at Leather and cap out at Chainmail. No baseline Martial weapon proficiencies, as nothing outside Simple Weapons is needed for the core idea.

Strengths: Buffs. One or more bonus Concentration slots (with spell restrictions) that don't require Concentration rolls when hit. Additionally, Short Rest spell slots make it have a strength in endurance campaigns by offering more healing after single hour Short Rests instead of overnight Long Rests, resulting in having much more capacity to solve the ultimate problem of taking damage when proper Long Rests are outside their recommended one per day or per four/five encounter rate. Particularly when the DM keeps inturupting them with mid-night combat after the short rest time has elapsed.

Weaknesses: The reliance on Totems for the duration-spell capabilities that the class ultimately requires to function properly (lacking Warlock Invocations or Pact Boons and using them as upper level casting), alongside the Totems being a Long Rest resource, ultimately means that retaining usage of the Totems requires positioning and party coordination to protect the Totems from enemies that can, usually, break it with a round, sometimes two, of attacks. When facing more intelligent enemies, the Totems could be subject to ranged attacks and areas of effect, in which case... Well, that's a weakness. Unless a Spirit Barbarian feels like defending them, which is quite fitting all things considered. This could be stopped by treating them as non-creatures, though.

---

In terms of subclasses for this closer-to-WoW version, the general pattern would be Totem functionality changing, such as making the Totem another type of item like a shield to make the tank not need to waste time and resources on their own class features, a Totem "burning" effect, such as otherwise-problematic effects for both Sort Rest and generalist access reasons, like Manatide Totem's slot restore being locked to a healing subclass, and an ability that is neither of these to facilitate the effectiveness of the subclass and tie the theme together.

The subclass spells would be formatted differently than normal, with a set for each baseline Totem. Larger versatility, but much narrower use of them. Of course, something would have to be done for immediate and singular effect without duration spells, but that's Totem specifications, not something the subclasses define.

Vogie
2018-04-09, 12:44 PM
What should its core features be? Pact Magic spellcasting and Long Rest Totems, with the Totems holding Concentration effects and casting high-level spells (replacing the Warlock 6th-9th method with the class mechanic, with the use of a totem on a high level spell being a single-use affair) on a relatively fragile secondary target, able to either usually survive one level-appropriate attack or requiring at least two, to both allow multiple Concentration effects and bypass the Concentration mechanic as it normally is, unless Concentration effects beyond Totem coverage are active. Medium Armor proficiency, as they usually bottom out at Leather and cap out at Chainmail. No baseline Martial weapon proficiencies, as nothing outside Simple Weapons is needed for the core idea.


I really like this idea - use the base idea behind Pact Magic, but instead of a slowly-growing number of limited spell slots, a shaman would start with, and keep, 4 "totem" slots and build the class around the placement of said totems.

Normal totems would refresh on short rest, while higher-level would be long rest based. I love the idea of Totems holding concentration spells - binding even something as little as Witch Bolt would be a really cool ability that other classes can't do.

Morphic tide
2018-04-09, 04:50 PM
I really like this idea - use the base idea behind Pact Magic, but instead of a slowly-growing number of limited spell slots, a shaman would start with, and keep, 4 "totem" slots and build the class around the placement of said totems.

Normal totems would refresh on short rest, while higher-level would be long rest based. I love the idea of Totems holding concentration spells - binding even something as little as Witch Bolt would be a really cool ability that other classes can't do.

No, the point of the Totems is that they're a powerful but vulnerable tool, tying all the casting to them means that the fundamental function of the class is attached to destructible items, which utterly destroys viability against AoE or intelligent ranged enemies. It also more closely follows the actual World of Warcraft Shaman, which actually has relatively few abilities accessible only through Totems and can function perfectly fine without them. In this case, the lack of Totems should significantly weaken the Shaman, but not utterly remove their magic. The Totems are a type of focus, the magic is drawn separately through deals.

Vogie
2018-04-09, 11:51 PM
No, the point of the Totems is that they're a powerful but vulnerable tool, tying all the casting to them means that the fundamental function of the class is attached to destructible items, which utterly destroys viability against AoE or intelligent ranged enemies. It also more closely follows the actual World of Warcraft Shaman, which actually has relatively few abilities accessible only through Totems and can function perfectly fine without them. In this case, the lack of Totems should significantly weaken the Shaman, but not utterly remove their magic. The Totems are a type of focus, the magic is drawn separately through deals.

I never said tie ALL casting to them - even warlocks can cast a myriad of spells without touching their spell slots, through augmented cantrips, Mythic Arcanum, and Invocations

Maybe you want to tie down totems to certain specific abilities, or possibly you want to make them open to hold a certain thing at a certain time. In the game, it gives your enemies a meaningful choice - attack you, or attack these inanimate objects that are holding these abilities. That way, instead of locking your spell choices into a specific element of a patron, the Shaman has an large swath of spells that can then be augmented by their totem choice and placement. While flavorfully it's a lot like the Patron/Boon of Warlocks, mechanically it's more like the metamagic of sorcerers, if that makes sense.

For example, an Elementalist Shaman may imbue their Wind Totem to cast Witch bolt, as mentioned above. Instead of the Shaman keeping concentration, and hitting the same target with that spell, forgoing all others, the Totem holds concentration, and continues firing away as long as the target is in range, while the Shaman's next turn is free to use any of their other spells... but no longer have their wind totem available to them until the next short rest. (I haven't played WoW since Cataclysm, but this would essentially be the Searing Totem of that era). That gives a playstyle completely unlike any other 5e class, which I think is exciting.

Alternatively, you could use an Earth Totem to cast and maintain concentration on an Earth Elemental, as the spell Conjure Elemental, but it could only move within the boundaries of that totem's aura. That also gives the target meaningful choices - Do I attack the shaman that cast it? Do I hamper the Elemental that's attacking me? Do I try to take out the totem that's holding the elemental, giving the shaman & elemental more time to wail on me?

Morphic tide
2018-04-10, 07:20 PM
I never said tie ALL casting to them - even warlocks can cast a myriad of spells without touching their spell slots, through augmented cantrips, Mythic Arcanum, and Invocations
Let me clear up my intent with the description: The Totems are a replacement to Invocations (which are the cantrip augmenting mechanism) and Mystic Arcanum. They are the mechanism for doing magic without slots, beyond basic cantrips, serving the roll of 6th-9th level spell casting (which burns out the Totem in question) and augmenting spells (which includes the Concentration offset and doesn't cost you the Totem for the day). As for you not saying you wanted to tie all casting to the Totems, you stated that it'd use the base idea behind Pact magic, but instead of the spell slots that are literally what Pact Magic is it'd all be Totem slots.


Maybe you want to tie down totems to certain specific abilities, or possibly you want to make them open to hold a certain thing at a certain time. In the game, it gives your enemies a meaningful choice - attack you, or attack these inanimate objects that are holding these abilities. That way, instead of locking your spell choices into a specific element of a patron, the Shaman has an large swath of spells that can then be augmented by their totem choice and placement. While flavorfully it's a lot like the Patron/Boon of Warlocks, mechanically it's more like the metamagic of sorcerers, if that makes sense.

For example, an Elementalist Shaman may imbue their Wind Totem to cast Witch bolt, as mentioned above. Instead of the Shaman keeping concentration, and hitting the same target with that spell, forgoing all others, the Totem holds concentration, and continues firing away as long as the target is in range, while the Shaman's next turn is free to use any of their other spells... but no longer have their wind totem available to them until the next short rest. (I haven't played WoW since Cataclysm, but this would essentially be the Searing Totem of that era). That gives a playstyle completely unlike any other 5e class, which I think is exciting.

Alternatively, you could use an Earth Totem to cast and maintain concentration on an Earth Elemental, as the spell Conjure Elemental, but it could only move within the boundaries of that totem's aura. That also gives the target meaningful choices - Do I attack the shaman that cast it? Do I hamper the Elemental that's attacking me? Do I try to take out the totem that's holding the elemental, giving the shaman & elemental more time to wail on me?

This would be an accurate description of the intended tactical outcome, though any Shaman with a Wind Totem would be able to use Witch Bolt, unless Witch Bolt is on a subclass list instead of the general Shaman list. The subclasses are adding the minimal additions to define a subset of the class, they're much less than Specializations from WoW due to not having nearly as many things they could add. One, sometimes two, spells per spell level and at most seven features.

The second paragraph, there, is missing the point. The Totems aren't expended when used on extra Concentrations or other spell modifiers, outside of assisted upcasting and generating effects above a certain equivalent slot level, you cast the spell as you normally would and the Totem handles Concentration for you instead of managing it yourself. Similarly, Totems set for particular effects could improve spells and cantrips in various other ways, like increasing and/or staggering the duration in addition to the Concentration handling.