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purplearcanist
2007-08-31, 04:44 PM
In a high level fighter vs. mage(wizard) fight, who would win?

I think the wizard would, but my friend claims the fighter would disrupt the mage's spellcasting. When I said that the mage could cast spells beforehand, he said no.

So my question is this. How could the mage, without having any spell effects precasted on themselves, have a 100% chance to beat the fighter?

Thinker
2007-08-31, 04:45 PM
What books are you using?

SadisticFishing
2007-08-31, 04:45 PM
C'est impossible. With no spells on him already at all, if the fighter goes first and can kill him in a round (which any real fighter can do), the fight is over.

Thinker
2007-08-31, 04:47 PM
C'est impossible. With no spells on him already at all, if the fighter goes first and can kill him in a round (which any real fighter can do), the fight is over.

Its still very likely that the arcanist can go first, even without any spells cast already. Depending on stat distribution and racial selection the arcanist really only needs a 19 intelligence and then pump dexterity. Enervation will win this fight.

Drider
2007-08-31, 04:48 PM
if wizard wins initiative, fly, then wind wall, then win.

SadisticFishing
2007-08-31, 04:48 PM
The fighter has enough feats for Improved Initiative, and if the Wizard only has 19 int, he's rather gimp. Not enough spells per day, bad save DC on the spells...

SadisticFishing
2007-08-31, 04:49 PM
if wizard wins initiative, fly, then wind wall, then win.

That's not 100%, though I do agree that if the Wizard wins initiative he wins for sure.

Forcecage rawr

Otto's Irresistable Dance, against the Fighter's flat footed touch AC.

Yeah.

Thinker
2007-08-31, 04:50 PM
The fighter has enough feats for Improved Initiative, and if the Wizard only has 19 int, he's rather gimp. Not enough spells per day, bad save DC on the spells...

He doesn't need to use spells that allow a save to defeat the fighter.

SadisticFishing
2007-08-31, 04:52 PM
He doesn't need to use spells that allow a save to defeat the fighter.

True, but if you're building characters only for this, the fighter would win as he can take Improved Initiative, Quick Reconnoiter (sp), and any number of other feats that add to your initiative.

martyboy74
2007-08-31, 04:53 PM
Celerity means you always win initiative (Moment of Precisence argueably can also pull this off), unless you're surprised, which is nowhere near fair. Teleport means you can just come back later, with the right spells. Time Stop means that you get at least one extra, non-stunned round. Chain Dispel Magic and Chain Shatter mean that the fighter has no magic items. Cloudkill and (if evocation is banned, Greater Shadow Evocation) Forcecage means that they're trapped in the cloudkill for 20 minutes (200 rounds). Even if they make their save every single time, and they always roll minimum damage, that's 100 constitution damage. They're dead.

Note: See Emperor Tippy for the master of this arguement.

purplearcanist
2007-08-31, 04:53 PM
For books, you can use stuff outside of core, but the greatest challenge is core-only.:smile:

SadisticFishing
2007-08-31, 04:55 PM
Celerity means you always win initiative (Moment of Precisence argueably can also pull this off), unless you're surprised, which is nowhere near fair. Teleport means you can just come back later, with the right spells. Time Stop means that you get at least one extra, non-stunned round. Chain Dispel Magic and Chain Shatter mean that the fighter has no magic items. Cloudkill and (if evocation is banned, Greater Shadow Evocation) Forcecage means that they're trapped in the cloudkill for 20 minutes (200 rounds). Even if they make their save every single time, and they always roll minimum damage, that's 100 constitution damage. They're dead.

Note: See Emperor Tippy for the master of this arguement.

Heh, read the post - no spells beforehand, so if the fighter wins iniative, you're surprised and you lose (Shock Trooper + Leap Attack is a lot of death)

purplearcanist
2007-08-31, 04:56 PM
So basically, it comes down to who wins inititive.

Jasdoif
2007-08-31, 04:57 PM
When I said that the mage could cast spells beforehand, he said no.Does that mean the fighter isn't allowed to have any equipment beforehand, either?

SadisticFishing
2007-08-31, 04:58 PM
So basically, it comes down to who wins inititive.

Yeppers. Sad thing is, even if the fighter wins initiative, he might miss and lose anyways.

Swordguy
2007-08-31, 04:59 PM
With no spells beforehand, you're not getting a "fair" test. As much as I HATE arcane spellcasters and all that stems from them, it's intentionally biasing the test heavily in favor of the fighter. A major portion of the caster's strength come from their ability to prepare of a specific encounter, which includes casting buffs on themselves beforehand.

SadisticFishing
2007-08-31, 05:00 PM
Does that mean the fighter isn't allowed to have any equipment beforehand, either?

Lack of equipment helps the fighter more than it hurts him, as it lowers the Mage's AC and life significantly while only giving him -11 str, so -5 hit and -7 damage. Oh no.

Hannes
2007-08-31, 05:02 PM
Depends, actually. If the fighter hates all forms of magic, he just gets a ring of anti-magic field(20 ft) and runs in on the spellcaster!

Reel On, Love
2007-08-31, 05:03 PM
In a high level fighter vs. mage(wizard) fight, who would win?

I think the wizard would, but my friend claims the fighter would disrupt the mage's spellcasting. When I said that the mage could cast spells beforehand, he said no.
Point out that many spells--for example, Overland Flight, last for HOURS--20 to 22 at level 20. Point out that with (rods of) Extend Spell, these last almost TWO days.
Point out Rope Trick and Magnificent Mansion.
Now, ask just how a Fighter is going to find a high-level mage without any spells up, when high-level mages always have spells up.


So my question is this. How could the mage, without having any spell effects precasted on themselves, have a 100% chance to beat the fighter?
Craft Contingent Spell, Complete Arcane.
Or taking Divine Oracle to 10 and using an immediate-action spell or ability, like Celerity or the PHB II Conjurer Immediate Magic ability.

Weezer
2007-08-31, 05:05 PM
Heh, read the post - no spells beforehand, so if the fighter wins iniative, you're surprised and you lose (Shock Trooper + Leap Attack is a lot of death)

Heh, know what your talking about, Celerity (PHB II) is cast as an immediate action and gives you an immediate standard action in return for being dazed for a few rounds. If you don't know what that means, immediate actions are actions that can be taken on other peoples turns as long as it isn't a surprise round.

So the wizard casts Celerity, then casts Time Stop, which gives him at least one round of unstunned action which he uses to forcecage then cloudkill.

Bam, fighter gone.

Hallavast
2007-08-31, 05:05 PM
Celerity means you always win initiative (Moment of Precisence argueably can also pull this off), unless you're surprised, which is nowhere near fair. Teleport means you can just come back later, with the right spells. Time Stop means that you get at least one extra, non-stunned round. Chain Dispel Magic and Chain Shatter mean that the fighter has no magic items. Cloudkill and (if evocation is banned, Greater Shadow Evocation) Forcecage means that they're trapped in the cloudkill for 20 minutes (200 rounds). Even if they make their save every single time, and they always roll minimum damage, that's 100 constitution damage. They're dead.

Note: See Emperor Tippy for the master of this arguement.

Can you cast immediate action spells when flat footed? And if the fight happens before 13th level, what can the wizard really do with his celerity? And if the wizard "can" do this, does he have all the right spells memorized?

I expect there will be a reference to the "master list of spells" that "all smart wizards should have" (which i don't think really exists).

But with all that being said, I still think the odds are stacked in the wizard's favor. Maybe not 100% of the time (unless you're a "smart",aka paranoid, wizard and you never set foot anywhere ulnless you've spent half your life scrying the place, and you don't have any attatchments to the outside world and don't take any chances ever, as Tippy will no doubt tell you all "smart" wizards should be).

martyboy74
2007-08-31, 05:06 PM
Heh, read the post - no spells beforehand, so if the fighter wins iniative, you're surprised and you lose (Shock Trooper + Leap Attack is a lot of death)

Presumably you're aware of the fighter, and that means that you're not surprised. If you're rolling initiative, then you're not surprised. If you aren't aware, that means that the fighter just ambushed to wizard. Don't even go there.


Can you cast immediate action spells when flat footed? And if the fight happens before 13th level, what can the wizard really do with his celerity? And if the wizard "can" do this, does he have all the right spells memorized?

I expect there will be a reference to the "master list of spells" that "all smart wizards should have" (which i don't think really exists).

But with all that being said, I still think the odds are stacked in the wizard's favor. Maybe not 100% of the time (unless you're a "smart",aka paranoid, wizard and you never set foot anywhere ulnless you've spent half your life scrying the place, and you don't have any attatchments to the outside world and don't take any chances ever, as Tippy will no doubt tell you all "smart" wizards should be).

If the fight happens brfore 13th level, that's not high level in my book. 12th is still medium level.
Teleport lets you teleport away and prepare all your spells. Scrying lets you find the fighter, then you Teleport in and begin the ownage.
There is a quite comprehensive guide to 'being batman' (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19085)on these very boards.
You don't need to Scry everything (although that helps). Foresight lets you know when something bad's about to happen, and Celerity let's you get out before it happens to you.

EDIT: \/\/ I forgot about that part. My bad.

SadisticFishing
2007-08-31, 05:06 PM
I do in fact know what I am talking about, you can't take Immediate Actions when flat footed.

Divine Oracle also doesn't prevent Flat-footedness, just losing your dex bonus when flatfooted.

Only Foresight actually negates the flat-footed condition, and he's not allowed to have it up already.

SadisticFishing
2007-08-31, 05:08 PM
Presumably you're aware of the fighter, and that means that you're not surprised. If you're rolling initiative, then you're not surprised. Even if the fighter starts out right next to you, you 5' step out of his reach, and lay down the ownage.

Doesn't matter. You haven't acted in combat yet. Flat footed, yay.

Zincorium
2007-08-31, 05:09 PM
Disrupting the wizard's spells can only be done if the player of the wizard doesn't know what they're doing.

Defensive casting is incredibly easy for spellcasters at high levels. A 9th level spell is only DC 24, a 20th level caster literally cannot fail unless they have a negative constitution (which is a stupid idea for a caster anyway). They don't provoke an attack of opportunity when casting.

Well, guess what. That means, even if the fighter wins, he needs to do enough damage on that one charge to kill the mage outright. Because the mage will spellcast him into uselessness with one round.

With an 18 con (12 base, +4 item, 2 inherent) which is low for a high level wizard will have on average 127 hit points. You either need to do all of that or hope the wizard rolls horribly on the fortitude save versus massive damage.

bingo_bob
2007-08-31, 05:10 PM
Really, it just depends on where the characters start in relation to each other. If there's space between them, wizard wins. Right up next to each other, it's fighter, though that's really, really unfair.

Reel On, Love
2007-08-31, 05:12 PM
Doing 120+ damage on a charge is almost trivial with the Shock Trooper feat. A core fighter won't be able to manage it, though, unless he's a mounted type with Spirited Charge and the like.

Good point about Divine Oracle. Craft Contingent Spell still works, and you can point out that Contingency has a duration of days, not even hours.

Jacob Orlove
2007-08-31, 05:13 PM
No spell effects precasted on himself? Familiars can hold a Contingency, which should be enough to win this fight.

lapsang
2007-08-31, 05:16 PM
Now I havent played sinced 2nd edition so I don't know the current rules but saying the mage cant have any spells cast on him beforehand is like saying the fighter cang be wearing any armor or have any weapons drawn. I say while the fighter is busy taking whoever long it takes to put a set of plate on the mage calmy casts fireball and its game over.

EDIT: Ok i just realised the fighter obviously wouldn't need any armor anyways against the Mage so my whole point is kinda moot. But hey, I haven't played in over 15 years so cut me some slack.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-08-31, 05:16 PM
Celerity means you always win initiative (Moment of Precisence argueably can also pull this off), unless you're surprised, which is nowhere near fair.
You cannot take immediate actions, like casting celerity while flat-footed. This includes being flat-footed in a normal round, not just the surprise round. "Celerity always wins initiative" requires the spell to be combined with a previously cast foresight, which prevents you from being flat-footed or surprised.


Heh, read the post - no spells beforehand, so if the fighter wins iniative, you're surprised and you lose (Shock Trooper + Leap Attack is a lot of death)
None of the spells martyboy listed are pre-combat buffs. Unless you count the implicit foresight to pull off the "Celerity always wins initiative" maneuver.

And others have pointed out how "no precast spells" creates conditions that just won't exist in actual game play at high levels. So, yeah, that's an arbitrary restriction anyway.

Fishies
2007-08-31, 05:17 PM
Maybe a Monk that grapples? Mayyyybbeeeee...

excrtd
2007-08-31, 05:21 PM
Two levels of scout keep you from being caught flat-footed.

martyboy74
2007-08-31, 05:22 PM
Maybe a Monk that grapples? Mayyyybbeeeee...

Any wizard worth his salt should have a item of Freedom of Movement. Not only does it free you from those pesky grapples, it also lets you operate perfectly in water, and gives you immunity to web, slow, solid fog, and paralysis.

Reel On, Love
2007-08-31, 05:22 PM
Maybe a Monk that grapples? Mayyyybbeeeee...

Ring of Freedom of Movement.
40k. Immunity to grappling.

Starbuck_II
2007-08-31, 05:24 PM
Ring of Freedom of Movement.
40k. Immunity to grappling.

Heart of Water: gives you one time spell of freedom of movement: the spell itself is 1 hr/level (so always ready for freedom when needed).

Reel On, Love
2007-08-31, 05:26 PM
Heart of Water: gives you one time spell of freedom of movement: the spell itself is 1 hr/level (so always ready for freedom when needed).

There's a stupid "no having any spells up beforehand" restriction here.

Thinker
2007-08-31, 05:26 PM
Here's a rough build I made:
25-pt buy: Grey Elf Wizard 20

Str 10
Dex 34
Con 10
Int 22
Wis 11
Cha 10

5x stat boosts --> Dexterity
Initiative: +11 (+7 Dex +4 Imp Initiative), may reroll 1/day
Ranged Attack Bonus: +17 (+7 Dex + 10 BAB)

Feats:
1) Improved Initiative
1) Scribe Scroll
3) Sudden Extend
5) Sudden Maximize
6) Sudden Empower
9) Sudden Silent
10) Split Ray
12) Sudden Still
15) Quicken Spell
15) Twin Spell
18) Danger Sense (reroll initiative 1/day)
20) Sudden Quicken Spell

Gloves of Dexterity +6 --> 36000
Headband of Intellect +6 --> 36000
Manual of Quickness of Action --> 137500

Spells of import:

1) Nerveskitter (immediate action, +5 initiative)
6) Sudden Quicken, Sudden Maximize, Sudden Empower, Twin Spell, Split Ray Ray of Stupidity (minimum 12 intelligence damage)
7) Maximize, Empower Ray of Stupidity (minimum 6 intelligence damage)

Strategy:
Use of Nerveskitter is debatable. Its intent is to obviously grant the caster +5 to his initiative check, but as an immediate action is not RAW usable if he is flatfooted he may not gain the benefit of the spell. Even without the spell the wizard has a good chance of winning initiative.
Win initiative. May reroll if lose initiative.
Round 1) Use Sudden Quicken/Maximize/Empower, Twin Spell, Split Ray - Ray of Stupidity. Does a minimum of 24 intelligence damage. Follow up with a Maximize, Empower, Ray of Stupidity. Does a minimum of 6 intelligence damage.
Round 2) Coup de grace opponent.

Twin Spell duplicates the spell's effect exactly, including the attack roll. Split Ray duplicates the ray, but not the attack roll, but gains all effects of other metamagic (including the Twin Spell). 30 Intelligence damage in round 1 will drop most opponents. Fill in whatever other spells you want.

This build has at most a 5% chance of failing: If the wizard rolls a 1 on his first or second attack roll he has only done 18 intelligence damage and it is possible that the opponent has more.

Jasdoif
2007-08-31, 05:27 PM
Lack of equipment helps the fighter more than it hurts him, as it lowers the Mage's AC and life significantly while only giving him -11 str, so -5 hit and -7 damage. Oh no.So...if the fighter wins initiative, is he/she making that Leap Attack/Shock Trooper combo with an unarmed strike, or looking for an improvised weapon for that first round?

Come to think of it, are they starting in charge range of each other?

martyboy74
2007-08-31, 05:27 PM
Heart of Water: gives you one time spell of freedom of movement: the spell itself is 1 hr/level (so always ready for freedom when needed).

Unfortunately, this contest does not allow spells to be prepared beforehand, and you must be prepared for the off- (non-) chance that you are caught and lost initiative, by which time that monk could already have run 150' and grappled the wizard.

Reel On, Love
2007-08-31, 05:30 PM
Strategy:
Use of Nerveskitter is debatable. Its intent is to obviously grant the caster +5 to his initiative check, but as an immediate action is not RAW usable if he is flatfooted he may not gain the benefit of the spell. Even without the spell the wizard has a good chance of winning initiative.
In the SpC, Nerveskitter specifically states it can be cast even though you're flatfooted.


Win initiative. May reroll if lose initiative.
Round 1) Use Sudden Quicken/Maximize/Empower, Twin Spell, Split Ray - Ray of Stupidity. Does a minimum of 24 intelligence damage. Follow up with a Maximize, Empower, Ray of Stupidity. Does a minimum of 6 intelligence damage.
Round 2) Coup de grace opponent.

Ray of Stupidity is negated by, say, mind blank (availible in item form as a Third Eye: Conceal). Really, I'd recommend using the first round to get buffs up and become untouchable (Shapechange, Greater Blink, Greater Invisibility, Flight of the Dragon, etc) and moving to safety.

SilverClawShift
2007-08-31, 05:33 PM
So basically, it comes down to who wins inititive.

That essentially sums up all high level battles.

Hallavast
2007-08-31, 05:36 PM
That essentially sums up all high level battles.

Hardly.


"That essentially sums up all high level battles that are under the effects of unrealistic and arbitrary restrictions to one side (arcane casters)." would be more accurate.

mostlyharmful
2007-08-31, 05:37 PM
provided the spellcaster doesn't know you have a grudge against him (never happen), doesn't know you're coming (never happen), doesn't see you walking up to them (never happen), is standing outside his home without his most basic proctections on(never happen), doesn't know craft contingent spell (never happen) and hass no big strong alllies wombling along next to them (never happen) then yes, the fighter has an about equal chance of rolling better on the initiative check and splatting the mage.

If however the supergenius level intellect reality warper pays even scant attention then a really strong guy with a sharp piece of metal isn't going to cut it without a deathwish being involved

Reel On, Love
2007-08-31, 05:39 PM
For the record, a wizard who doesn't guarantee that he'll go first/avoid the first round's attacks with Contingency, Craft Contingent Spell, or Foresight plus immediate-action spells or abilities? He's still got a damn good chance of coming out on top. He's going to have a higher initiative (Nerveskitter, plus, generally, a slightly higher Dex than a fighter), and he can have a Cloak of Displacement, which'll give him a 50% miss chance. So even if the fighter does win initiative, and does have Shock Trooper, he's still not guaranteed to splatter the wizard in one round.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-08-31, 05:39 PM
In the SpC, Nerveskitter specifically states it can be cast even though you're flatfooted.
The trigger you'd use to determine when to cast the spell is way to meta for my tastes... Can't say I'm fond of the concept.

Just a slightly off-topic observation I had to get off my chest. :smallsigh:

OOTS_Rules.
2007-08-31, 05:43 PM
OK, let me see what would happen in each scenario:

Wizard has Buff Spells, Fighter has Equipment: Wizard Wins
Wizard has Buff Spells, Fighter is Equipmentless: Wizard Wins
Wizard has no Buff Spells, Fighter has Equipment: Depends on Initiative (Grappling FTW)
Wizard has no Buff Spells, Fighter is Equipmentless: Depends on Initiative. (Grappling FTW)

Wizard wins.

lord_khaine
2007-08-31, 05:43 PM
heh, well if its core only then the fighter is done for, he cant use the shock trooper combo to take the wizard down in a singel charge, and as soon as the wizards gets a action its over.

if sources outside core is allowed then not only can the wizard boost his initative higher though magic, but he can also craft a contingency to take care of those instances where he lose initiative.

purplearcanist
2007-08-31, 05:45 PM
Pretty interesting, the person who posted that the mage has a 5% chance to lose.
My friend does not think that high level mages are powerful compared to high level fighters, though. He says that a mage could not get his spell cast before the fighter whacks him, and if a mage casts a spell in battle, the fighter would just whack the mage while they're casting the spell, and they would lose the spell.

Solo
2007-08-31, 05:47 PM
Does your friend know of something called "casting defensively"?

Jasdoif
2007-08-31, 05:48 PM
....and if a mage casts a spell in battle, the fighter would just whack the mage while they're casting the spell, and they would lose the spell.Quickened spells don't provoke attacks of opportunity. Neither does casting outside a threatened square, like if you can five-foot step out of the fighter's range before you cast the spell. And with a nice Concentration check, the wizard might be able to retain the spell even if they do get him.

martyboy74
2007-08-31, 05:48 PM
OK, let me see what would happen in each scenario:

Wizard has Buff Spells, Fighter has Equipment: Wizard Wins
Wizard has Buff Spells, Fighter is Equipmentless: Wizard Wins
Wizard has no Buff Spells, Fighter has Equipment: Depends on Initiative
Wizard has no Buff Spells, Fighter is Equipmentless: Depends on Initiative.

Wizard wins.

Unless the fighter is built to be played with very little/no equipment, he can't win. His attacks will suck, and there's no way that he'll be able to take out the wizard in a single hit. Being equipmentless kills non-spellcasters.

Logic
2007-08-31, 05:49 PM
True, but if you're building characters only for this, the fighter would win as he can take Improved Initiative, Quick Reconnoiter (sp), and any number of other feats that add to your initiative.

If you are building characters just for this, the mage can also take improved initiative, and can craft a magic item (and Permancy if it is permissable) to add to his initiative. No equipment for either makes this a fighter's fight, but barely.


Pretty interesting, the person who posted that the mage has a 5% chance to lose.
My friend does not think that high level mages are powerful compared to high level fighters, though. He says that a mage could not get his spell cast before the fighter whacks him, and if a mage casts a spell in battle, the fighter would just whack the mage while they're casting the spell, and they would lose the spell.

This isn't second edition. He has a chance to lose the spell, and he still has the ability to cast defensively.

Besides, he can still take a 5 foot step back, and cast a spell outside of the range of the fighter.

Crazy_Uncle_Doug
2007-08-31, 05:51 PM
It's too tough to call, for me. There's too many variables involved, let alone dice rolls. A high strength fighter with Power attack and a two-handed weapon can get off attacks that can do around 15+ hit points per hit. If you make his weapon a Bane or some sort of extra-damage dealer, he could easily do 30-50 hit points a round. Most likely he'll have Improved Critical and Power Critical for the weapon he's wielding, which means he could very well end it all for the caster, all going in his favor.

On the other hand, a caster will have spells that can take out a fighter. If he focuses on using spells with Will or Reflex Saves, or spells without saves at all, he can do a lot of damage before the Fighter gets a blow, or even just kill the Fighter outright.

I would expect one could run that fight three times and get three different results.

Wooter
2007-08-31, 05:51 PM
Pretty interesting, the person who posted that the mage has a 5% chance to lose.
My friend does not think that high level mages are powerful compared to high level fighters, though. He says that a mage could not get his spell cast before the fighter whacks him, and if a mage casts a spell in battle, the fighter would just whack the mage while they're casting the spell, and they would lose the spell.

Does he know what defensive casting is?

Reel On, Love
2007-08-31, 05:59 PM
Pretty interesting, the person who posted that the mage has a 5% chance to lose.
My friend does not think that high level mages are powerful compared to high level fighters, though. He says that a mage could not get his spell cast before the fighter whacks him, and if a mage casts a spell in battle, the fighter would just whack the mage while they're casting the spell, and they would lose the spell.

Why yo' friend gotta be so ig'nant?

Seriously, that's mindboggling. It's like he's never seen a mage who casts anything but Fireball.

Even core-only, that high-level mage is flying, invisible, and easily capable of casting defensively. Even if he wasn't, he could 5' step out of the fighter's reach, and Dimension Door himself 500 feet into the air (where his flight will keep him). Even if he couldn't 5' step (the fighter has reach, say), a level 20 wizard cross-classing tumble will always make the check to tumble out of the Fighter's reach.
And then there's quickened spells, which don't provoke attacks of opportunity. A regular Rod of Quicken Spell lets the mage quicken that Dimension Door/Teleport/other spell without having prepared it in a high-level slot.

OOTS_Rules.
2007-08-31, 06:08 PM
Unless the fighter is built to be played with very little/no equipment, he can't win. His attacks will suck, and there's no way that he'll be able to take out the wizard in a single hit. Being equipmentless kills non-spellcasters.

I meant with grappling. If the wizard didn't have Freedom of Movement, grappling would let him win.

Jasdoif
2007-08-31, 06:11 PM
I meant with grappling. If the wizard didn't have Freedom of Movement, grappling would let him win.The wizard could just dimension door out of the grapple.

Murderous Hobo
2007-08-31, 06:38 PM
The fighter invites the Wizard to get a drink in the Inn and intimidates the wizard into getting really drunk

The Wizards has a lower con then the Fighter so the fighter stays sober.

Fighter wins. :smalltongue:

Karsh
2007-08-31, 06:38 PM
If we're talking non-core, then just give the Wizard a Retributive Amulet and Starmantle Cloak. Suddenly, the amount of damage Mr. Shock Trooper is dealing is cut by 75%, and he takes half of what was supposed to happen to the Wizard himself. Most charging builds like that can't survive a hit from themselves, so... with those two items, even if the wizard loses initiative, it's nearly impossible for them to lose.

tannish2
2007-08-31, 06:48 PM
wizards (and psionicists) ALWAYS have extended hour per level spells up ALWAYS even if its only mage armor and overland flight (i know i do it) time stop (possibly preceded by greater celerity if needed) invis fly fighter now has some problems.... wizard casts overland flight on himself, so that even if the fighter has a dispelling weapon he cant bring him down, and then theres the other defensive spells, that with 20 minutes of invisibility you easily have time to cast.... then improved invisibility and offensive spells.

Kurald Galain
2007-08-31, 07:07 PM
Wizard wins initiative because of Foresight.

Fighter can't see wizard because of Invisibility.

Fighter can't reach wizard because of Contingent Dimension Door.

Wizard can kill the fighter all the way to sunday three times without blinking an eye.

Mad Wizard
2007-08-31, 07:07 PM
I think that if the wizard doesn't get to be prepared at all, neither should the fighter. He shouldn't have his weapon out. I think that's roughly equivalent to a wizard having no buffs. Assuming that they start out of range of a full attack, but in range of a charge, the fighter will have to draw his weapon (move), and won't be able to charge.

Even if we don't do this, the wizard should have a contingent time stop/celerity/teleport (made with craft contingent spell) ready for if he is ever surprised.

Jacob Orlove
2007-08-31, 07:08 PM
The wizard could just dimension door out of the grapple.
Or Silent dimension door out of a pin.

OOTS_Rules.
2007-08-31, 07:09 PM
The wizard could just dimension door out of the grapple.

Not when grappled. AOO = Fighter slugs him in the face, interrupting him. It all depends on initiative.

Douglas
2007-08-31, 07:15 PM
Except the wizard casts it defensively so the fighter doesn't get an AoO.

martyboy74
2007-08-31, 07:20 PM
Not when grappled. AOO = Fighter slugs him in the face, interrupting him. It all depends on initiative.

The wizard makes the incredibly easy check, and DDs out anyways.

daggaz
2007-08-31, 07:31 PM
I totally agree with Lapsang here. If the wizard cant have any spells active before the fight starts, then the fighter cant have his weapon drawn. Its the exact same thing, being prepared for battle with your main source of offense. And in that case, unless the fighter has quickdraw, he is a dead duck regardless of who wins initiative. I know a lot of people who neglect quickdraw in their fighter builds.

Anyhow, this whole thread has been done to death a thousand times. Really the whole topic should be banned from the boards, and a locked sticky should be put up in its place.

XBobbis
2007-08-31, 07:33 PM
What's to stop the fighter from using ranged weapons and just saying "I wait til it looks like he's concentrating and whack him good." DC 10+a Ranged Specialist's damage isn't something to scoff out. Casting defensively doesn't help against readied actions.

Tokiko Mima
2007-08-31, 07:34 PM
Here's the best case I could see for the fighter in the unrealistic situation that he catchs a 20th level wizard unaware, unbuffed, and literally defeneless. Assuming that he can kill the wizard in a single round, the wizard will instantly revive via the Clone (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/clone.htm) spell, buffs up from a secret location, teleports in on the fighter a few rounds later, and destroy the fighter without any chance of reprisal.

Thinker
2007-08-31, 07:49 PM
What's to stop the fighter from using ranged weapons and just saying "I wait til it looks like he's concentrating and whack him good." DC 10+a Ranged Specialist's damage isn't something to scoff out. Casting defensively doesn't help against readied actions.

In which case he still has to win initiative and is still vulnerable to the build I posted earlier in this thread. 24 Int damage is nothing to scoff at.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-08-31, 08:01 PM
Not when grappled. AOO = Fighter slugs him in the face, interrupting him.
You don't threaten any squares—not even your own—when grappling, therefore, you cannot take Attacks of Opportunity. (SRD:Combat:Special Attacks:Grapple:Grappling Concequences (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/specialAttacks.html#grappling-consequences))

However, you do have to make a Concentration purely by virtue of being grappled if you try to cast a spell. But then, the DC for dimension door is only 24. A wizard that 20th-level wisely maxes out ranks in Concentration will automatically make those checks unless he or she is facing major penalties to the roll. (SRD:Combat:Special Attacks:Grapple:If You're Grappling:Cast a Spell (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/specialAttacks.html#grapple-cast-a-spell))


What's to stop the fighter from using ranged weapons and just saying "I wait til it looks like he's concentrating and whack him good."
Usually, wind wall (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/spellsTtoZ.html#wind-wall). If you can't do that, make sure when you dimension door, you make it a full 1200 ft. away, so even if the fighter has Far Shot, he's still taking a -14 penalty to hit (over 7 range increments). I'm sure he can also through on a few other useful magic items to further reduce/negate the archer's chance of hitting.


DC 10+a Ranged Specialist's damage isn't something to scoff out.
Ranged damage tends to suck. Even for a specialist.


Casting defensively doesn't help against readied actions.
Nope. But then readying an action every round does tend to deprive the archer of full attacks and full round actions—which are pretty much required for archers to do much damage.

Jacob Orlove
2007-08-31, 08:04 PM
What's to stop the fighter from using ranged weapons and just saying "I wait til it looks like he's concentrating and whack him good." DC 10+a Ranged Specialist's damage isn't something to scoff out. Casting defensively doesn't help against readied actions.
If the Wizard sees an archer just standing there, it's not hard to figure out what's going on. The wizard can either move behind cover, or cast some random swift/immediate level 1 spell (how's your fighter's spellcraft?) to trigger the ready action, and then get on with casting his real spell for the turn (Wind Wall, perhaps?).

Rex Blunder
2007-08-31, 09:05 PM
man, I'm going to miss these threads come fourth edition... I'm already getting pre-nostalgia.

Chronos
2007-08-31, 09:11 PM
Assuming that he can kill the wizard in a single round, the wizard will instantly revive via the Clone spell,That, at least, is one thing the wizard can't do. If he grows the clone before he dies, it's just a lump of dead flesh, and doesn't do anything. And he can't very well grow it after he dies.

What if, instead of a fighter, we're talking monk? If the monk wins initiative and starts the battle within 180 feet of the wizard, I don't see any good counter (in core, at least) to a stunning fist charge.

Oh, and don't put too much confidence in Forcecage. If you cast the windowless cell version, your opponent can just wait it out, since you can't do anything to him through the cell, either (though you can cast any buffs you didn't already have up). And if you cast the barred cage version, well, a potion of Gaseous Form costs half as much as Forcecage's material component.

Solo
2007-08-31, 09:16 PM
Oh, and don't put too much confidence in Forcecage. If you cast the windowless cell version, your opponent can just wait it out, since you can't do anything to him through the cell, either (though you can cast any buffs you didn't already have up).

Suffocation.

Reel On, Love
2007-08-31, 09:25 PM
That, at least, is one thing the wizard can't do. If he grows the clone before he dies, it's just a lump of dead flesh, and doesn't do anything. And he can't very well grow it after he dies.
...uh, what? He grows the clone as soon as he gets the spell. Then, when he dies, he poofs into the clone right away.


What if, instead of a fighter, we're talking monk? If the monk wins initiative and starts the battle within 180 feet of the wizard, I don't see any good counter (in core, at least) to a stunning fist charge.

The monk's only got about a 50% chance of winning Init. The potentially higher Dex (although if he raises Dex above all, he's not going to be hitting that hard and his stunning fist DC won't be that high) is cancelled out by Nerveskitter.
If the wizard has that Cloak of Displacement, the monk has a 50% miss chance right off the bat. After that, he's not guaranteed to hit the wizard's AC--even if it's as high as a 75% chance, that's already 75% of 50% of 50%, or less than one out of five times.
Then there's the Fortitude save. The wizard's going to be making that, let's say, half the time (good CON, rat familiar). That's one out of *ten* times.

But, of course, none of that matters, because the wizard, like most equipment-savvy high-level characters, has a +1 mithral buckler of Heavy Fortification (36k GP, for the record). And you can't Stunning Fist something that's crit-immune, says so in the description.


Oh, and don't put too much confidence in Forcecage. If you cast the windowless cell version, your opponent can just wait it out, since you can't do anything to him through the cell, either (though you can cast any buffs you didn't already have up). And if you cast the barred cage version, well, a potion of Gaseous Form costs half as much as Forcecage's material component.
You can slap a (rod-)quickened Cloudkill (for example) down before you throw the Forcecage up.
Or, you know, an (XP-free, not using the Calling function) Gate. To a volcano. Welcome to Burning While Drowning In Molten Lava Oh God Oh God This Is The Worst Pain Ever, our new game show.

NullAshton
2007-08-31, 09:30 PM
Okay... how are you going to protect yourself with no knowledge that the fighter is going to attack, thus no buffs up? Or at low levels? If the fighter wins initiative.... pain.

Reel On, Love
2007-08-31, 09:35 PM
Okay... how are you going to protect yourself with no knowledge that the fighter is going to attack, thus no buffs up? Or at low levels? If the fighter wins initiative.... pain.

First of all, the fighter's significantly less likely to win initiative.
Then there's the unlikelihood of the fighter killing you in one hit, unless he's using Heedless Charge (from Shock Trooper). Even if he is, he gets a 50% miss chance from a Cloak of Displacement.
And finally, if Contingency is arbitrarily disallowed despite its days/level duration (since we're already abritrarily disallowing hours-duration spells, which the mage *will* have up no matter when the Fighter attacks him), there's Craft Contingent Spell. It's a feat, the results are basically slotless nonphysical items, not a prebuff.

At lower levels, nobody's suggesting a high-damage fighter couldn't one-shot an unbuffed wizard he wins initiative against. He still needs to win initiative (and hitting, at that level, isn't exactly guaranteed).

Hallavast
2007-08-31, 09:37 PM
wait... can you apply a fortification buff to a shield? if you can that sounds kinda dumb.

AlterForm
2007-08-31, 09:39 PM
Here, I drug this up from the CharOp boards...THIS is what happened when some guys got together and decided "Let's put a monk vs a wizard and see what happens." Mind you, the GM did accidentally skew in favor of the monk, and the guy playing the wizard screwed up royally (no silent dim door), but you can probably make out what the wizard should have done.

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=890789&highlight=why+I+hate+rule+zero

Please don't turn this into that. :smallfrown:

Reel On, Love
2007-08-31, 09:39 PM
wait... can you apply a fortification buff to a shield? if you can that sounds kinda dumb.

Yes, Fortification can be applied to armor and shields.
This is no more dumb than applying it to any other kind of armor, because it's magic, not literal physical fortification of your organs. In fact, IIRC, it basically surrounds your organs with freakin' force fields. So... yeah. I mean surrounding organs with force fields is kinda dumb--really dumb, even. But it's no more dumb if it's a buckler doing it than your plate mail.

Sornjss Lichdom
2007-08-31, 09:41 PM
Thread completely rediculess, in my eyes, but hey I just love my caster's. any self respecting wizard would have enough magical items to stop at least one attack Or a quickend dimisional door, to get away long enough to cast time stop, protective spell, protective spell, delayed fireball, and well.. what ever else tickles your fancy. Boom, flensed, dehydrated, burnt to a crisp, fighter to go. Also at a high level, take Archmage, spell like abilaty Diminsional Door, saves you a thousand times over.

And another thing at lvl 20 wouldn't your concentration be at like +40, somthing like that.

Now there is a sure fire way the fighter wins every time, In FR: Underdark Guide, there is a magical amulet that let's the wear create an antimagic field around his person, perventing escape, attack and what ever elses a wizard has up his sleeve.

Though al of this was probably all ready pointed out by fellow playgrounders, I didn't read all the way through it because the thought of a wizard getting slapped around by a boy and his stick made my blood chill :smallbiggrin: .

Reel On, Love
2007-08-31, 09:49 PM
Now there is a sure fire way the fighter wins every time, In FR: Underdark Guide, there is a magical amulet that let's the wear create an antimagic field around his person, perventing escape, attack and what ever elses a wizard has up his sleeve..

Activating the Antimagic Torc: standard action.
That means that even if you reach the wizard with your move action, you can't grab him or anything. He tumbles away (floor[23/2] is 11, plus at least 3 from Dexterity (more like 5 or 6), means even a 1 succeeds), and Dimension Doors himself the hell away. The next round, he starts flying (Time Stop for more buffs if needed). Now he's flying, you can't fly, you can shoot at him with a nonmagical bow against his magical defenses... and he can rain down instantaneous Conjurations, or Called creatures, on you. Or teleport away, wait a day, and use Scry-and-Die tactics.
Which are hilarious, because if the wizard casts a (Maximized) Time Stop, teleports over to you in the time stop, lays down a few lethal spells, and then throws a Dimension Lock down and a Prismatic Sphere around you--refreshing the Time Stop with another if necessary--and then teleport away, still in the time stop. In a single eyeblink, you will suddenly be surrounded by horrible magical death, and not have a clue why.

RaistlinandPals
2007-08-31, 09:51 PM
Out of curiosity, what the hell does the feat "shock trooper" do and what book is it in? Also, I agree that its up to distance, initiative, and equipment.

Sornjss Lichdom
2007-08-31, 09:52 PM
Well you only activate it after you start grappiling the poor mage, unless keeping a grapple goin is a full round action (sry don't grapple that much)

PirateMonk
2007-08-31, 09:58 PM
Well you only activate it after you start grappiling the poor mage, unless keeping a grapple goin is a full round action (sry don't grapple that much)

Yes, but given the low chance of you actually successfully grappling the mage, it is hardly "a sure fire way the fighter wins every time," as you claimed.

Hallavast
2007-08-31, 09:58 PM
Yes, Fortification can be applied to armor and shields.
This is no more dumb than applying it to any other kind of armor, because it's magic, not literal physical fortification of your organs. In fact, IIRC, it basically surrounds your organs with freakin' force fields. So... yeah. I mean surrounding organs with force fields is kinda dumb--really dumb, even. But it's no more dumb if it's a buckler doing it than your plate mail.

So why can't i do it with a sword?

Dhavaer
2007-08-31, 10:00 PM
So why can't i do it with a sword?

Because swords aren't armour.

Reel On, Love
2007-08-31, 10:02 PM
Out of curiosity, what the hell does the feat "shock trooper" do and what book is it in? Also, I agree that its up to distance, initiative, and equipment.
But we know what kind of initiative and equipment these characters have. And with, say, Craft Contingent Spell, not even starting point blank and winning init will save the Fighter.


Well you only activate it after you start grappiling the poor mage, unless keeping a grapple goin is a full round action (sry don't grapple that much)
You can't grapple the mage without it, Ring of Freedom of Movement says so.


So why can't i do it with a sword?
Becuase the rules say it's an armor/shield property. *shrug*

Hallavast
2007-08-31, 10:03 PM
Because swords aren't armour.

But it doesn't matter because it's magic. And bucklers aren't armor either.

Neon Knight
2007-08-31, 10:04 PM
Out of curiosity, what the hell does the feat "shock trooper" do and what book is it in? Also, I agree that its up to distance, initiative, and equipment.

Shock Trooper is found in Complete Warrior. A tactical feat, it allows the user to use three maneuvers, the most famous of which allows you to take a penalty to AC for a damage bonus when charging. The other two tactical maneuvers involve bullrushing.

SITB
2007-08-31, 10:28 PM
But it doesn't matter because it's magic. And bucklers aren't armor either.

"You can't ask questions, it's magic. It doesn't explain anything, it's magic. You don't know where it comes from, it's magic! That's what I don't like about magic, it does everything by magic!" -Commander Vimes, Thud!

Or, alternatively:

Bucklers are for defending yourself, weapons are for harming people. It seems to me that a protective enchantment would only work on protective gear.

Hallavast
2007-08-31, 10:29 PM
"You can't ask questions, it's magic. It doesn't explain anything, it's magic. You don't know where it comes from, it's magic! That's what I don't like about magic, it does everything by magic!" -Commander Vimes, Thud!

Or, alternatively:

Bucklers are for defending yourself, weapons are for harming people. It seems to me that a protective enchantment would only work on protective gear.

So... what the hell is a +4 short sword of defending?

SITB
2007-08-31, 10:35 PM
Simple, you substitute your fighting prowess to better defend yourself. The enchantment while protective in nature still requires in it's foundation an aggressive trait.

Hallavast
2007-08-31, 10:43 PM
Simple, you substitute your fighting prowess to better defend yourself. The enchantment while protective in nature still requires in it's foundation an aggressive trait.

But the sword is still used for defending yourself. Conversely, one can use a shield for offensive purposes. So there is little distiction between the two pieces of equipment in this regard. Thus, the argument does little to explain why you can put an enchantment that makes much sense on armor onto a shield. And by saying "it works because it's magic" could work for pretty much any argument. So why, if we extend the rules to include a shield, must we make the distiction to exclude a weapon? The whole thing sounds pretty arbitrary to me.

So, the enchantment should be restricted to suits of armor because the armor is already in the proper place for the enchantment to take effect. It is already embracing the body (specifically the vital organs). A shield however must be moved into place to give effective protection to these places. So, to model this in the game, the enchantment that protects vital organs should only be applicable to the piece of equipment that is always in the right place for the magic to take effect.

Jasdoif
2007-08-31, 10:51 PM
But the sword is still used for defending yourself. Conversely, one can use a shield for offensive purposes. So there is little distiction between the two pieces of equipment in this regard. Thus, the argument does little to explain why you can put an enchantment that makes much sense on armor onto a shield. And by saying "it works because it's magic" could work for pretty much any argument. So why, if we extend the rules to include a shield, must we make the distiction to exclude a weapon? The whole thing sounds pretty arbitrary to me.Well, it is pretty arbitrary...but weapon enhancements go on weapons, and armor/shield enhancements go on armor/shields. The fun part is that you can get spikes put on your shield, and then you can put weapon enhancements on the spikes and armor/shield enhancements on the shield.


Anyway, since this subject has come up, I feel it fitting to quote the FAQ.
Can you enhance a pair of gloves as a weapon (such as +1 frost gloves, for example)? What would they cost?

Objects that arenít weapons canít be enhanced as if they were weapons. You canít create +1 frost gloves any more than you could create a +1 frost corncob pipe or a +5 holy orcbane algebra textbook. You could create a +1 frost gauntlet (since the gauntlet is a weapon described on Table 7Ė5: Weapons in the Playerís Handbook).

SITB
2007-08-31, 11:00 PM
Since the defending ability degrades your fighting capabilities if one would be inclined to make the equivalent for a shield your increased "hitting things and harming them" prowess would make you "more likely to be hit by things".

The main difference is the probably their intended use, a shield for defending and a sword for harming. Sometimes some abilties may overlap but that does not change the fact that there is a difference between the intendeed purpose.

And about the Magic Is Magic argument; that's because it's the correct argument. WOTC wrote in the DMG that particular fact and although we can exchange fluff views for infinity, in the end, that's just how WOTC chose to write it.

Hallavast
2007-08-31, 11:01 PM
Well, it is pretty arbitrary...but weapon enhancements go on weapons, and armor/shield enhancements go on armor/shields. The fun part is that you can get spikes put on your shield, and then you can put weapon enhancements on the spikes and armor/shield enhancements on the shield.


Anyway, since this subject has come up, I feel it fitting to quote the FAQ.

So why, then, are armor enchantments separate from shield enchantments? By the logic put down here, there is no reason for them to be so.

Reel On, Love
2007-08-31, 11:07 PM
So why, then, are armor enchantments separate from shield enchantments? By the logic put down here, there is no reason for them to be so.

They aren't. Some enhancements are shield only--like Arrow-Catching--because they wouldn't work on armor--your armor is on you, it can't leap in the way of an arrow. Animated similarily wouldn't work on armor. Some enhancements, likewise, don't work on shields. That's just how the magic works.

Look, these things are the result of the people writing the game making certain decisions. We can keep coming up with post facto justifications for you, but you're a bright guy--I'm sure you could do it yourself. Or houserule that swords can be Of Fortification, if you'd like, when you run a game. Whatever. The point is, them's the rules--why the heck are we examining them for making sense? And if we are, then why are we starting with "why can't armor enhancements be applied to weapons" rather than "OH GOD WHAT HAPPENED TO THERMODYNAMICS"?

Hallavast
2007-08-31, 11:14 PM
They aren't. Some enhancements are shield only--like Arrow-Catching--because they wouldn't work on armor--your armor is on you, it can't leap in the way of an arrow. Animated similarily wouldn't work on armor.

Look, these things are the result of the people writing the game making certain decisions. We can keep coming up with post facto justifications for you, but you're a bright guy--I'm sure you could do it yourself. Or houserule that swords can be Of Fortification, if you'd like, when you run a game. Whatever. The point is, them's the rules--why the heck are we examining them for making sense? And if we are, then why are we starting with "why can't armor enhancements be applied to weapons" rather than "OH GOD WHAT HAPPENED TO THERMODYNAMICS"?

Just because people write these things down doesnt mean the decision shouldnt be criticized. In any event, fourth edition is coming out, so why shouldn't these things be looked at?

Also, just because some rules can't make sense from a realistic point of view doesnt mean we shouldn't try to suggest alterations to make sense of the ones that can easily be adjusted to do so...

And finally, i'm not asking for justifications for the current rule. I've already house-ruled it so that it's an armor only effect at my table. I'm simply wondering if anyone out there agrees with me. It sort of vindicates my misgivings.

Ozymandias
2007-08-31, 11:14 PM
By the logic put down here, there is no reason for them to be so.

There's your problem : it's not logic, it's magic. Don't try to use real-life standards, because it is a fictional force that was (well, once was) designed to be mysterious and alien.

Hallavast
2007-08-31, 11:26 PM
There's your problem : it's not logic, it's magic. Don't try to use real-life standards, because it is a fictional force that was (well, once was) designed to be mysterious and alien.

That's the cheapest and most often used excuse I've ever heard. If the designers of the game are that lazy, why even have rules in the first place? The rules are supposed to model real life in some fasion (and a lot of them do a decent job of this while keeping the game easy to play). So why give up and say "its magic" when you can give a more comprehensive explaination and make people like me happy? And if it's so alien, how is it that wizards can make these items in the first place?

Jasdoif
2007-08-31, 11:41 PM
That's the cheapest and most often used excuse I've ever heard. If the designers of the game are that lazy, why even have rules in the first place? The rules are supposed to model real life in some fasion (and a lot of them do a decent job of this while keeping the game easy to play). So why give up and say "its magic" when you can give a more comprehensive explaination and make people like me happy?...what kind of response are you looking for, here? It's arbitrary, yes. Just like the numbers used to determine hit die sizes, AC, BAB, save bonuses...pretty much every instance of the core mechanic is rooted in some arbitrary figure. And being the core mechanic, the rest of the game is similarly rooted in those arbitrary figures. Why would you expect the rules on magic enhancements to be any different?

Anyway, were I to guess, I'd say the designers of the game were intending to lay down the basic mechanical rules and let individual DMs decide how, or if, to explain how all the nuances work within their campaign world's particular flavor of magic.

Dervag
2007-08-31, 11:48 PM
Look, these things are the result of the people writing the game making certain decisions. We can keep coming up with post facto justifications for you, but you're a bright guy--I'm sure you could do it yourself. Or houserule that swords can be Of Fortification, if you'd like, when you run a game. Whatever. The point is, them's the rules--why the heck are we examining them for making sense? And if we are, then why are we starting with "why can't armor enhancements be applied to weapons" rather than "OH GOD WHAT HAPPENED TO THERMODYNAMICS"?I love how so much of this argument is between two people with identical pictures.

The reason people keep "examining" the rules for "making sense" is that intelligent beings like to use internally consistent systems. Systems that contain logical contradictions or that violate our expectations of how they ought to behave give us a headache.

We can accept the thermodynamics violations because they are part of an internally consistent system with defined rules, even if the rules don't match the ones we know govern the real universe. But internal inconsistencies within the constructed rules, or ways in which the rules deviate from our picture of what it 'ought' to be should bother us.

Why criticize?


...what kind of response are you looking for, here? It's arbitrary, yes. Just like the numbers used to determine hit die sizes, AC, BAB, save bonuses...pretty much every instance of the core mechanic is rooted in some arbitrary figure. And being the core mechanic, the rest of the game is similarly rooted in those arbitrary figures. Why would you expect the rules on magic enhancements to be any different?There's a difference between an arbitrary number and an arbitrary explanation.

BardicDuelist
2007-08-31, 11:50 PM
Really, it's simple. A (core race) wizard can win a fight with any fighter by being more than 80 (ish) feet away. If they are too far away for the fighter to hit on the first round (which is reasonable, since most people would notice a person, who happens to be the only person around, well before they are within distance to charge you). There are then limitless combinations which could be used to destroy a fighter.

Just to note, I always start these types of "whatever vs. whatever" things well enough away so that the person who wins iniative isn't basically declared winner.

Even with a bow, I don't see how a fighter (even an archer fighter) can one shot a wizard from more than 80 feet away.

I would also allow any spells which have a duration greater than 5 min be active, otherwise the WBL guidelines tend to favor the fighter more.

John Campbell
2007-09-01, 12:29 AM
Fire Resistance is a defensive effect restricted to armor (and not shields), but frost brands provide it.

(I talked my DM into allowing me to make my axe provide cold resistance when wielded on the strength of this fact.)

Kurald Galain
2007-09-01, 03:32 AM
What if, instead of a fighter, we're talking monk?

Oh noes! It's a wizard-vs-monk thread! How original!

And btw, an algebra textbook is totally a weapon! It paralyzes/fatigues its victim on a succesful hit, too.

lord_khaine
2007-09-01, 04:30 AM
And btw, an algebra textbook is totally a weapon! It paralyzes/fatigues its victim on a succesful hit, too.

no its a cursed item, its effect doesnt come into play unless some poor sucker is stupid enough to open it and start reading.

Threeshades
2007-09-01, 04:43 AM
About all the Fighter vs wizard thing. Lets say we start without precasted spells but the fighter is like 130' (hundredandthirty) away so he would have to run closer and charge in his 2nd turn. Then the wizard has enough time to cast fly and he's mostly out of danger already (except if its a ranged fighter. Then the wiz will probably have to take a few arrows before he can cast wid wall or protection from arrows)

sorry if this has been stated before. im too lazy to read the thread

CASTLEMIKE
2007-09-01, 04:46 AM
It helps if the fighter is built with ToB.

Sebastian
2007-09-01, 10:20 AM
In a high level fighter vs. mage(wizard) fight, who would win?

I think the wizard would, but my friend claims the fighter would disrupt the mage's spellcasting. When I said that the mage could cast spells beforehand, he said no.

So my question is this. How could the mage, without having any spell effects precasted on themselves, have a 100% chance to beat the fighter?

1- defensively cast dimension door (check DC 17 Concentration IIRC, automatic for any high level wizard , quite simple for all the other) (unless he have one quickened ready, of course) reappear at maximum distance from the fighter,
2- cast fly/overland flight
3- turn the fighter in a pile of ashes in the way of his choice.

(if he really want to be paranoid he could add invisibilty, shield and/or some form of protection from ranged attacks.)

earlblue
2007-09-01, 11:02 AM
Man, I thought these 'which class would win' kinda 'discussion' have been discuss to death already. It usually stems from the 'balancing the classes' discussions that attempt to make all classes somehow equal in fights.

Truth is, while fighting is a big part in RPG (roll playing game, an old term), it is not the entire thing. Each class can have different functions in any game and can be used differently.

So constant harping about fighting... is kinda sad.:smallredface:

But to get back to fighting, fighter vs mage really, really depends on a lot of things other then classes. For example, it matters greatly WHO is using the fighter and WHO is using the mage. Like reality, it is the hand that fires the gun that determines its 'deadliness'.

The experience USER of a fighter might just be able to wait for the clueless USER of a mage to be in a situation that is of such advantage to the fighter that the fighter wins hands down.

If we are talking about looking it from another reality point - we assume that it is really a wizard (the intelligent caster vs the charismatic caster) and a fighter, then I have to say: Whoever is the most prepared wins.

If I am a fighter going after a wizard, my first question would be: are there any weapon that nullified magic? There has to be. An anti-magic arrow that projects an anti-magic shell? Armor that is resistant to magic? Then there is my victim. When is s/he most venerable? Not all wizards are that paraniod to be in the company of guards all the time.

If I am a wizard who is afraid of fighters and/or assasins coming after me, my first question who be: what equipment I should keep that will ward off a surprise attack if I happen to lose all my magic? A golem guard? A talisman to teleport me? I know that my spellcasting would be more difficult if I am hit on the first round, before I can get my spells off. I should have scrolls, wands or other device that will allow me to get something off in the event that I am hit first.

STRATEGY AND TACTICS is what determine the outcome of any fights.

Sun Zi (an ancient strategist and author of 'The Art of War') says this: Warfare is like water, there is no fix shape nor ways. It flows with the land, from high to low. Likewise, there is no 100% win combo. Whatever you can throw out, given time, someone will come out with something that will defeat it.

I also say this to my players: If you accept that magic is possible, then it too must have its rules and laws. Being ignorant of the rules doesn't mean that they do not exist.

O'BeQuiet UWannaBe

SITB
2007-09-01, 12:09 PM
<snip>

Great, but really, how does it have any correlation to D&D? Maybe in a more freeform game you may be right. But in D&D 3.X the rules seem to make the mage, as many people keep pointing out, more powerful then the fighter.

Tactics and startegy don't matter to the fighter as much if the mage can overpower him casually unless he has the most dedicated build; and if even then, it's not certain.

Setra
2007-09-01, 12:27 PM
What if the fighter wins initiative and hits the Wizard with a poisoned arrow?

Like something that does str damage?

earlblue
2007-09-01, 12:45 PM
Great, but really, how does it have any correlation to D&D? Maybe in a more freeform game you may be right. But in D&D 3.X the rules seem to make the mage, as many people keep pointing out, more powerful then the fighter.

Tactics and startegy don't matter to the fighter as much if the mage can overpower him casually unless he has the most dedicated build; and if even then, it's not certain.

EEp... I suppose this is the point where we can go into the many situations that can arise out of a game where the mage can overpower the fighter casually... or not... to show some correlation to D&D.

Or, we can just drum up as many variant of fighters and mages to fight each other.

Strategy and tactics doesn't matter? If you were to say that, then you are not playing enough. That or you don't know the meaning of the words 'Strategy' and 'Tactics'.

Just ask yourself this one question: If you are the mage, or the fighter, what would you do to win the other? Consideration should be given to where and when you will strike, how and with what will you attack with. Once you start to think about this, be it the mage or the fighter, you are planning an attack, a strategy and the tactics you can use.

The many combos and whatnots? They are part of the 'tactics' and 'strategy' that you dismissed so lightly. Just as we see how you can built mages... I'm sure there are threads devoted to fighters.

AS to who would win, I say both has a chance. It boils down to who think more. If it is really is a given fact - tested through the many years from 1ed to 3ed - then this discussion will never turn up now, would it?

I porpose a test: you randomly generate (according to rules, no less) a 20 level wizard and a 20 level fighter - no PR-Class, totally random stats, random spells, random weapons. random feats. Take the two and place them on a flat ground. Shout 'round 1, fight!' (and play some riduculous music). Of course this is of almost no real coorelation to D&D, other then the two characters are created according to rule. Now, simple attack actions should be written on cards, and given to the fighter, while spells are randomly cast from the wizard. This will ensure that it is boild down to chance rather then any strategy or tactics being used.

Then tabulate the fights and will how many times who wins. If the rules leans towards the mage, then the mage should win everytime...

OBeQuiet UWannaBe.

SITB
2007-09-01, 01:02 PM
EEp... I suppose this is the point where we can go into the many situations that can arise out of a game where the mage can overpower the fighter casually... or not... to show some correlation to D&D.

Or, we can just drum up as many variant of fighters and mages to fight each other.

Strategy and tactics doesn't matter? If you were to say that, then you are not playing enough. That or you don't know the meaning of the words 'Strategy' and 'Tactics'.

Just ask yourself this one question: If you are the mage, or the fighter, what would you do to win the other? Consideration should be given to where and when you will strike, how and with what will you attack with. Once you start to think about this, be it the mage or the fighter, you are planning an attack, a strategy and the tactics you can use.

The many combos and whatnots? They are part of the 'tactics' and 'strategy' that you dismissed so lightly. Just as we see how you can built mages... I'm sure there are threads devoted to fighters.

AS to who would win, I say both has a chance. It boils down to who think more. If it is really is a given fact - tested through the many years from 1ed to 3ed - then this discussion will never turn up now, would it?

I porpose a test: you randomly generate (according to rules, no less) a 20 level wizard and a 20 level fighter - no PR-Class, totally random stats, random spells, random weapons. random feats. Take the two and place them on a flat ground. Shout 'round 1, fight!' (and play some riduculous music). Of course this is of almost no real coorelation to D&D, other then the two characters are created according to rule. Now, simple attack actions should be written on cards, and given to the fighter, while spells are randomly cast from the wizard. This will ensure that it is boild down to chance rather then any strategy or tactics being used.

Then tabulate the fights and will how many times who wins. If the rules leans towards the mage, then the mage should win everytime...

OBeQuiet UWannaBe.

See, when I dismissed those vaunted 'tactics' and 'startegy' I meant that with a remarkably low effort the wizard can suppress any attempt of the fighter at 'out-maneuvering' him (unless played incompetently or railroaded into a situation where he can't win).

PirateMonk
2007-09-01, 01:02 PM
AS to who would win, I say both has a chance. It boils down to who think more. If it is really is a given fact - tested through the many years from 1ed to 3ed - then this discussion will never turn up now, would it?

No, it really doesn't. The Fighter can have a brilliant strategy, but if the Wizard survives long enough just to cast Fly or Gate in or Shapechange into something big and scary, he's screwed.

Kaelik
2007-09-01, 01:44 PM
What if the fighter wins initiative and hits the Wizard with a poisoned arrow?

Like something that does str damage?

The Wizard makes his Fort save and laughs. Or he fails it and laughs.

In both cases he casts Overland Flight, quickened Wind Wall, and then flies forty feet straight up. Round two, Black Blade of Disaster.

The Glyphstone
2007-09-01, 02:12 PM
The Wizard makes his Fort save and laughs. Or he fails it and laughs.

In both cases he casts Overland Flight, quickened Wind Wall, and then flies forty feet straight up. Round two, Black Blade of Disaster.


The wizard laughs after (potentially) taking 18 CON damage from a single dose of Black Lotus Extract? Granted, that is possible (though unlikely) to kill him out right, because of his Amulet of Health +6. Dragon Bile would actually be more dangerous...3d6 Str damage could very easily paralyze the wizard, as it's an extremely rare wizard who pumps his Str score or wears a Belt of Giant Strength.

Or the wizard just wears a Periapt of Proof Versus Poison. Then he laughs cause he never needs to save.

Green Bean
2007-09-01, 02:28 PM
Truth is, while fighting is a big part in RPG (roll playing game, an old term), it is not the entire thing. Each class can have different functions in any game and can be used differently.

So constant harping about fighting... is kinda sad.:smallredface:


You realize that the irony here is that even if the fighter was somehow built to be better than the wizard in combat, the wizard still beats the fighter in terms of out of combat utility. Things like Spiderclimb, Knock, Charm Person, Invisibility mean that wizards have something going for them no matter what kind of game it is. Ever try being a fighter in a political intrigue-based campaign?



Strategy and tactics doesn't matter? If you were to say that, then you are not playing enough. That or you don't know the meaning of the words 'Strategy' and 'Tactics'.

Strategy and tactics always matter in play. If you're simply comparing power, then strategy can be ignored. Let's use the example of two armies. They have similar composition and both are striving to wipe the other out. The difference is that one army outnumbers the other 10 to 1. Yes, an excellent tactician could somehow turn the tables on the larger army. But how about two equal tacticians? What if the smarter guy is in charge of the bigger army? And what if the guy in charge of the smaller army is only slightly smarter? In order to objectively compare two forces, you have to use equal levels of skill. And the thing is, most of the time, big army crushes little. And most of the time, wizard crushes fighter.

IonizedChicken
2007-09-01, 02:33 PM
EEp... I suppose this is the point where we can go into the many situations that can arise out of a game where the mage can overpower the fighter casually... or not... to show some correlation to D&D.

Or, we can just drum up as many variant of fighters and mages to fight each other.

Strategy and tactics doesn't matter? If you were to say that, then you are not playing enough. That or you don't know the meaning of the words 'Strategy' and 'Tactics'.

Just ask yourself this one question: If you are the mage, or the fighter, what would you do to win the other? Consideration should be given to where and when you will strike, how and with what will you attack with. Once you start to think about this, be it the mage or the fighter, you are planning an attack, a strategy and the tactics you can use.

The many combos and whatnots? They are part of the 'tactics' and 'strategy' that you dismissed so lightly. Just as we see how you can built mages... I'm sure there are threads devoted to fighters.

AS to who would win, I say both has a chance. It boils down to who think more. If it is really is a given fact - tested through the many years from 1ed to 3ed - then this discussion will never turn up now, would it?

I porpose a test: you randomly generate (according to rules, no less) a 20 level wizard and a 20 level fighter - no PR-Class, totally random stats, random spells, random weapons. random feats. Take the two and place them on a flat ground. Shout 'round 1, fight!' (and play some riduculous music). Of course this is of almost no real coorelation to D&D, other then the two characters are created according to rule. Now, simple attack actions should be written on cards, and given to the fighter, while spells are randomly cast from the wizard. This will ensure that it is boild down to chance rather then any strategy or tactics being used.

Then tabulate the fights and will how many times who wins. If the rules leans towards the mage, then the mage should win everytime...

OBeQuiet UWannaBe.

The problem is that Wizards have access to special tools (i.e. Foresight, Contigency, and so forth) that are unavailable to the Fighter; these tools allow for special strategies that all but the most specialized fighters simply cannot counter -- it's like trying to stop a bullet with a tennis racket. So, essentially, these tools are (at least to the Fighter) an automatic 'win' button when properly combined. What's worse, sometimes the Wizard doesn't even have to be aware of the Fighter to press it.

I do agree that every battle is a matter of strategy, though.

At any rate, I'd like to note that "who would win in a fight" is a rather bad way to examine the balance between two classes. A proper balance test should involve something that actually happens in-game -- such as fighting monsters and the like with a party. The "who would win in a fight", I should note, becomes ridiculous at very high levels since it's often a matter of who wins initiative/who has the most (not any) spells pre-cast.

martyboy74
2007-09-01, 02:37 PM
At any rate, I'd like to note that "who would win in a fight" is a rather bad way to examine the balance between two classes. A proper balance test should involve something that actually happens in-game -- such as fighting monsters and the like with a party. The "who would win in a fight", I should note, becomes ridiculous at very high levels since it's often a matter of who wins initiative/who has the most (not any) spells pre-cast.

Unfortunately, the Wizard wins this too. The non-spellcasters get to the point where teir job is to coup de grace the opponents that the wizard has rendered helpless. The only problem with the spellcasters is that they're all narcoleptic.

IonizedChicken
2007-09-01, 02:38 PM
Did I ever say he wouldn't? I simply said that "who would win in a fight" isn't a proper balancing method.

Setra
2007-09-01, 04:20 PM
Just a thought but..

Everyone seems to give the wizard all the items.

Give the fighter some items too, he needs some love.

I know the Wizard would still win but there has to be some items the fighter could use.. maybe something granting flight?

Or what if he is Half-Dragon? Then he can fly anyways.

Kaelik
2007-09-01, 05:17 PM
Just a thought but..

Everyone seems to give the wizard all the items.

Give the fighter some items too, he needs some love.

I know the Wizard would still win but there has to be some items the fighter could use.. maybe something granting flight?

Or what if he is Half-Dragon? Then he can fly anyways.

People only mentioned Wizard items because they started from the ridiculous notion that a Wizard would not have any buffs up (not even ones that last days.)

Also, try rereading Half Dragon, you might notice that he would need some other LA to get wings since only large or larger creatures gain wings.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-09-01, 05:20 PM
Everyone seems to give the wizard all the items.

Give the fighter some items too, he needs some love.
Someone's gonna bring up Mordenkainen's/Mage's Disjunction (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/spellsMtoO.html#mages-disjunction) at this point, so it might as well be me.

...Hey! I brought it up!

Yeah, in any case, the fighter will lose access to a good number of items if the wizard uses that.

Reel On, Love
2007-09-01, 05:30 PM
Just a thought but..

Everyone seems to give the wizard all the items.

Give the fighter some items too, he needs some love.

I know the Wizard would still win but there has to be some items the fighter could use.. maybe something granting flight?

Or what if he is Half-Dragon? Then he can fly anyways.

Sure, he can get flight--Wings of Flying. He'll have plenty of other items. They get expensive pretty fast (Third Eye Conceal: 150k), and you can't really cover all your bases until very late. 20th level characters have something like twice the wealth of 17th-level characters. And even at level 20, gear can only do so much (and the gear might as well be on a Warrior or Commoner).

Yeril
2007-09-01, 05:34 PM
It depends on alot.

What spells the wizard has ready, what kind of buffs he has.

I mean a level 20 wizard standing toe to toe with no buffs and a random jubmle of spells with a level 20 fighter is gonner get gutted and sliced before you can say "Attack of oppertunity."

Kaelik
2007-09-01, 05:48 PM
It depends on alot.

What spells the wizard has ready, what kind of buffs he has.

I mean a level 20 wizard standing toe to toe with no buffs and a random jubmle of spells with a level 20 fighter is gonner get gutted and sliced before you can say "Attack of oppertunity."

Actually, If he wins initiative he still probably wins, almost certainly if he takes the right feats and spells known.

Reel On, Love
2007-09-01, 05:51 PM
It depends on alot.

What spells the wizard has ready, what kind of buffs he has.

I mean a level 20 wizard standing toe to toe with no buffs and a random jubmle of spells with a level 20 fighter is gonner get gutted and sliced before you can say "Attack of oppertunity."

I don't know about you, but my wizards generally prepare spells with the understanding that they're going to be defending themselves (or attacking people), not in a random jumble.

Kurald Galain
2007-09-01, 06:21 PM
Strategy is not actually a skill in D&D, but if it were, it would be based on int.

Of the two, fighter and wizard, which has the better int? Oh yeah. And by a long shot, too. While the fighter goes e2-e4, the wizard has planned ten moves ahead and alreeady checkmated him by default.

Dausuul
2007-09-01, 06:27 PM
It depends on alot.

What spells the wizard has ready, what kind of buffs he has.

I mean a level 20 wizard standing toe to toe with no buffs and a random jubmle of spells with a level 20 fighter is gonner get gutted and sliced before you can say "Attack of oppertunity."

Unless the random jumble of spells happens to include a single teleport or greater teleport, in which case the wizard casts defensively, disappears in a puff of smoke, and comes back the next day buffed to the gills and loaded for bear.

kpenguin
2007-09-01, 06:50 PM
Unless the random jumble of spells happens to include a single teleport or greater teleport, in which case the wizard casts defensively, disappears in a puff of smoke, and comes back the next day buffed to the gills and loaded for bear.

But then the fighter wins that battle. The wizard retreated.

martyboy74
2007-09-01, 06:58 PM
That's not much consolation to him if he's dead.

kpenguin
2007-09-01, 07:05 PM
That's not much consolation to him if he's dead.

This is a simulation. As other people have pointed out, in an in-game situation you can bet the wizard has buffs on him. I'd say that if the wizard retreats, that counts as a win for the fighter.

Theodoriph
2007-09-01, 07:10 PM
The wizard hasn't retreated at all. The fighter only thinks he has. Unfortunately, he'll only realize his mistake when his spirit hears the wizard's shoes dancing on his corpse.

kpenguin
2007-09-01, 07:12 PM
For the purposes of a simulation, the fighter has won. In an in-game situation, the wizard retreats and the fighter goes on to whatever his objective is.

martyboy74
2007-09-01, 07:14 PM
This is a simulation. As other people have pointed out, in an in-game situation you can bet the wizard has buffs on him. I'd say that if the wizard retreats, that counts as a win for the fighter.

So, does that mean that evacuating your troops from an area before you nuke it is a loss?

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-09-01, 07:17 PM
For the purposes of a simulation, the fighter has won. In an in-game situation, the wizard retreats and the fighter goes on to whatever his objective is.
If the first thing the wizard does is run, the fighter cannot really be said to have overcome any sort of challenge.

Theodoriph
2007-09-01, 07:17 PM
"For the purposes of a simulation, the fighter has won. In an in-game situation, the wizard retreats and the fighter goes on to whatever his objective is."


Nope, for the purposes of a simulation, the fighter has not won since the wizard is dancing on his corpse. I'm pretty sure being dead precludes winning in this simulation. :P

You can't even really argue it. It's the same idea as a Paladin taking a 5-foot step back and using his lay-on-hands ability before resuming his attack. I'm sorry, but that doesn't mean the Paladin lost to the kobold he was fighting. :smalltongue:

(In an in-game situation, the wizard is buffed and the fighter doesn't even get to put up a fight. :) This is clearly not an in-game situation. And in fact, the only way to win appears to be to kill the other person since it's not really over until they're dead...or you are.)

Solo
2007-09-01, 07:20 PM
A tactical retreat is by no means a loss.

Kaelik
2007-09-01, 07:28 PM
This is a simulation. As other people have pointed out, in an in-game situation you can bet the wizard has buffs on him. I'd say that if the wizard retreats, that counts as a win for the fighter.

Did you not notice the lack of simulation in that he can have no buffs at all including contingency? Or for that matter the specific fight we are talking about involves A wizard who is not even allowed to choose what spells he prepares for the day but instead gets them assigned randomly. Not very good of a simulation there. And still, a well built Wizard has a good probability of getting one of several spells that automatically lead to his victory. (Or for that matter choosing Alacritous Cognition and guaranteeing possession of at least one.)

Fly/Overland Flight/Expeditious retreat/Teleport/Greater Teleport/Greater Invisibility/Almost any Will save or suck/Almost any Ninth Level Spell=Wizard wins. And this is if he doesn't even get to choose what to prepare.

Advantage goes to Wizard.

Theodoriph
2007-09-01, 07:32 PM
On a side note:

We could be really cheap. Since nothing about the wizard's spellbook was mentioned, we could create our 20th level wizard with only a few select spells from each level, thus ensuring his random spell selection will be useful.


I'm afraid the fighter will always die in that case. :smallfrown: