UA comes out Today! Official Discussion Page Here. [Archive]

jaappleton

2018-04-09, 07:21 AM

I’m fully prepared to be immensely disappointed.

Last time they used GaryCon as an excuse for not having any actual UA content, as if the convention snuck up on them. That made it seem like they hastily throw together UA haphazardly about 2 hours before deadline (which is how some of it actually comes across), but it’s such a BS excuse that I frankly am having a very hard time giving a flying **** about UA anymore.

You can say I’m bitter or entitled. I’d say I’m jaded.

Of course, this pretty much guarantees that today’s UA will either be amazing or absolute trash. I’m leaning heavily toward trash.

sophontteks

2018-04-09, 07:30 AM

I'm excited to see the coffee stains from their caffeine-fueled last-minute cram accidently scanned onto the official PDF. And maybe a few stick figures hastily drawn in for flavor to the text.

. Shadowblade .

2018-04-09, 07:44 AM

I would like to see new playable races especially Kitsune, Lamia and tauric races: Centaur, Pegataur, Drider, Wemic & Scorpion-taur.

jaappleton

2018-04-09, 07:45 AM

I'm excited to see the coffee stains from their caffeine-fueled last-minute cram accidently scanned onto the official PDF. And maybe a few stick figures hastily drawn in for flavor to the text.

You're my spirit animal.

sophontteks

2018-04-09, 07:51 AM

You're my spirit animal.
No sir, you are my spirit animal.

Either that or we both read the lore master. I needed to go to a doctor and have my jaw clamped shut after I read that. I just sat there slack-jawed for a week before I finally decided I needed medical attention.

EDIT: Meant lore master.

Dudewithknives

2018-04-09, 09:15 AM

What I would love: A combat-focused subclass for rogues/fighter that specializes in one single-handed weapon like a duelist, or a rework of artificer.

What I would like: Really any new subclasses.

What I expect: Massive disappointment from the last min thrown together stuff from an intern or just another useless scan of a random page from the new book.

Rogerdodger557

2018-04-09, 09:20 AM

jaappleton

2018-04-09, 09:25 AM

On one hand, I'd be disappointed if they released more previews from MToF.

On the other, as an AL player, any and all official material released is available for use, as it is official content.*Rubs hands together with an evil grin on my face*

The same thing happened with the forge cleric before Xanathar's got released.

Yes, I recall getting Nathan Stewart to release it by bending him to my will via cat gifs.

I mean.... I cast 'Command' and he failed his save.

Tanarii

2018-04-09, 09:27 AM

Rogerdodger557

2018-04-09, 09:27 AM

Yes, I recall getting Nathan Stewart to release it by bending him to my will via cat gifs.

I mean.... I cast 'Command' and he failed his save.

Is that not the same thing?

Malaketh

2018-04-09, 09:28 AM

What I expect....."As last Monday was a holiday, there will be no UA today. We fully expect to have something ready for you next Monday."

jaappleton

2018-04-09, 09:30 AM

What I expect....."As last Monday was a holiday, there will be no UA today. We fully expect to have something ready for you next Monday."

Nah, they'd just cancel it for the whole month.

jaappleton

2018-04-09, 09:34 AM

A major reason I rarely participate in discussing UAs is these threads are page after page of speculation before the UA even comes out. Completely burning burying discussion of the UA once it does.

We as a community should start insisting these threads be labeled "official speculation thread"s so we can have an actual "official discussion thread" once the UA is released.

This is fair. All we can do at this point is speculate.

Though in todays world, there's a massive priority on being 'first' to get information out. I'm not calling out the OP on this, its just ingrained in society with the digital age at this point.

Tanarii

2018-04-09, 09:37 AM

This is fair. All we can do at this point is speculate.

Though in todays world, there's a massive priority on being 'first' to get information out. I'm not calling out the OP on this, its just ingrained in society with the digital age at this point.
To be clear, I'm not trying to crimp anyone's style and/or enjoyment of speculating on what the UA will be. Lots of y'all clearly enjoy that, and it's not my place to say boo.

the_brazenburn

2018-04-09, 09:40 AM

This is fair. All we can do at this point is speculate.

Though in todays world, there's a massive priority on being 'first' to get information out. I'm not calling out the OP on this, its just ingrained in society with the digital age at this point.

Go ahead and call me out. It's completely true.

I've just wanted to start one of these UA discussion threads for a while.

To be clear, I'm not trying to crimp anyone's style and/or enjoyment of speculating on what the UA will be. Lots of y'all clearly enjoy that, and it's not my place to say boo.

Speculation is half the fun!

Unoriginal

2018-04-09, 09:41 AM

jaappleton

2018-04-09, 09:47 AM

Go ahead and call me out. It's completely true.

I've just wanted to start one of these UA discussion threads for a while.

Speculation is half the fun!

Back when they were releasing playtest material pretty much weekly in prep for XGtE, DracoKnight and myself would race eachother to see who could get the topic made first. So yeah, I get it. :smallbiggrin:

jaappleton

2018-04-09, 09:56 AM

What I expect... people **** on game designers for not pandering to their personal opinions and tastes, or for not giving them free stuff they have no obligation to give.

Who am I kidding, you guys have already started that.

Aren't UA bashing threads fun?

You're right. They have no obligation to give us 'free stuff'.

Although they themselves also insist on how integral playtesting is for the sake of balance and the integrity of 5E. That's precisely what UA (as far as 5E is concerned) was started for; So when they skip it, or do some lore preview of something already solidified as being in print...

Its two things:

Its a wasted opportunity to generate hype for an upcoming product, and the design direction of that upcoming product.
Its a wasted opportunity to garner playtest results for said product.

As far as people being upset because of something that is released for playtest, but not specifically what they want... That comment is a bit fair, yeah. I'm certainly guilty of it. I have little use for mass combat rules or anything like that, and I've certainly griped about it. I simply believe there's a lot of demand for certain things that aren't yet in 5E, and mass combat rules is pretty low on the list.

JakOfAllTirades

2018-04-09, 09:58 AM

I still want my !@#$ing Master Thrower!!!

Or a workable Binder.

Maybe an updated Alchemist, because the last one had some issues.

But hey, whatever.

rbstr

2018-04-09, 10:07 AM

It's very odd that so many of you treat UA as if it were something owed to you.

Aett_Thorn

2018-04-09, 10:08 AM

It's very odd that so many of you treat UA as if it were something owed to you.

Who here is making that claim?

Unoriginal

2018-04-09, 10:09 AM

You're right. They have no obligation to give us 'free stuff'.

Although they themselves also insist on how integral playtesting is for the sake of balance and the integrity of 5E. That's precisely what UA (as far as 5E is concerned) was started for;

[...]

Its a wasted opportunity to garner playtest results for said product.

Playtesting make be integral, but it doesn't mean they'll have always something to playtest each month. And instead of being happy they make the effort at all, people just want to tear the game designers a new one for not posting a few times.

So when they skip it, or do some lore preview of something already solidified as being in print...

[...]

Its a wasted opportunity to generate hype for an upcoming product, and the design direction of that upcoming product.

Speak for yourself, they had me hyped at any release of new info on said upcoming product. Even the questionable Mordenkainen's Mayhem battles still always showed us amazing monsters.

Speaking of which, next one is tonight.

As far as people being upset because of something that is released for playtest, but not specifically what they want... That comment is a bit fair, yeah. I'm certainly guilty of it. I have little use for mass combat rules or anything like that, and I've certainly griped about it. I simply believe there's a lot of demand for certain things that aren't yet in 5E, and mass combat rules is pretty low on the list.

*Shrug* it's stuff they want playtested, it doesn't have to answer to a demand.

Same for people who expect the UA rules to be pristine proper when the purpose of publishing is to polish them.

Willie the Duck

2018-04-09, 10:17 AM

It's very odd that so many of you treat UA as if it were something owed to you.

Meh. If my friend says he's going to write a new blog entry every day, and then starts falling behind, I will say something even if I'm not owed an update.

Playtesting make be integral, but it doesn't mean they'll have always something to playtest each month. And instead of being happy they make the effort at all, people just want to tear the game designers a new one for not posting a few times.

OTOH, you're not wrong. A lot of people seem to have a vested interest in finding ways that Mearls, Crawford and Co. let them down. There is a real 'I love what you made, this edition is a phenomenal success, but I'm still mad at you for... reasons' vibe towards WotC these days that I just don't get.

Naanomi

2018-04-09, 10:18 AM

Scorpion-taur.
In mythology, called aqrabuamelu or girtablilu (the latter pathfinder also uses)... Scorrow in Eberron... Tlincalli in forgotten realms (and 5e VGtE)... originally appeared in DnD’s Mystara setting as ‘man-scorpions’

jaappleton

2018-04-09, 10:19 AM

Playtesting make be integral, but it doesn't mean they'll have always something to playtest each month. And instead of being happy they make the effort at all, people just want to tear the game designers a new one for not posting a few times.

Speak for yourself, they had me hyped at any release of new info on said upcoming product. Even the questionable Mordenkainen's Mayhem battles still always showed us amazing monsters.

Speaking of which, next one is tonight.

*Shrug* it's stuff they want playtested, it doesn't have to answer to a demand.

Same for people who expect the UA rules to be pristine proper when the purpose of publishing is to polish them.

I disagree on a bit, but also agree on some other points. I haven't been watching the Mord's Mayhem battles (Not enough time in a day, and I'm a big 'text over video' guy).

Regarding UA rules to be pristine and polished; I expect UA to be at a polish level of like a 7 on a scale of 1-10. Some stuff have been around 9, I think Forge Cleric only needed one spell replaced, and it got changed to needing Heavy Armor to be the +1.

Other stuff has been at like a 4/10. Tranquility Monk and Redemption Paladin's first draft was... A bit much as a whole, though we're both aware of the fact that often UA playtests concepts which may not be intended to be the sum of all parts presented. There are others which don't know that, or forget it.

sophontteks

2018-04-09, 10:23 AM

It's very odd that so many of you treat UA as if it were something owed to you.
Owed? No. I wish they didn't bother with them at all.

jaappleton

2018-04-09, 10:24 AM

Meh. If my friend says he's going to write a new blog entry every day, and then starts falling behind, I will say something even if I'm not owed an update.

OTOH, you're not wrong. A lot of people seem to have a vested interest in finding ways that Mearls, Crawford and Co. let them down. There is a real 'I love what you made, this edition is a phenomenal success, but I'm still mad at you for... reasons' vibe towards WotC these days that I just don't get.

Its also different when its a once a month thing that people look forward to, as opposed to weekly or daily.

jaappleton

2018-04-09, 10:28 AM

Owed? No. I wish they didn't bother with them at all.

Wait a moment. This implies you don't want content playtested.

That's a terrible, terrible idea.

Anonymouswizard

2018-04-09, 10:41 AM

What I expect... people **** on game designers for not pandering to their personal opinions and tastes, or for not giving them free stuff they have no obligation to give.

Who am I kidding, you guys have already started that.

Aren't UA bashing threads fun?

I think at least some of us are actually in the position where we mind the bad stuff more than the missed months, I know I am.

I mean hey, you'll not have something to show every month, and even when you should have sometimes other things take time away. I significantly prefer them saying 'hey we're not doing UA this month' to 'Greyhawk Initiative part 2: now with more dice'.

I mean yes, I'll join in the bashing when the actual stuff is subpar or not to my tastes, but considering I at one time followed a D&D facebook page where every top comment on every UA article was 'this is awesome and there's no way it's unbalanced as is' I'm a bit jaded when it comes to UA. Most of the time I spend criticising it, when I can actually be bothered (which is admittedly rare) is also out of the hope that one of the designers lurks on this forum and takes notes on an op-heavy community's views as well as the general 'doesn't care too much about balance' community (you know, the ones who in 3.5 knew spellcasters were powerful but saw Sorcerers and Wizards as equals).

Unoriginal

2018-04-09, 10:45 AM

Who here is making that claim?

You can have the attitude without making the claim out loud.

sophontteks

2018-04-09, 10:47 AM

Wait a moment. This implies you don't want content playtested.

That's a terrible, terrible idea.
No, they can playtest their own stuff. Besides, do we really need to playtest releases like the lore master to know its bad?

If the stuff released was realistic and actually close to playable I'd probably feel differently. As it is, it just feels like they are scribbling stuff down to build hype.

Aett_Thorn

2018-04-09, 10:48 AM

You can have the attitude without making the claim out loud.

You can also claim that others have this attitude, even when it's not present.

strangebloke

2018-04-09, 10:48 AM

What I would like to see - Feats for classes, new sub-races (Derro, some of the cooler rare elf sub-races fleshed out, etc.)

While I like this idea, the simple truth is that feats are becoming a very crowded design space. There's a ton of good feats to take, but the opportunity cost is just so high as is.

I guess if I implemented this, I would just give a free feat depending on the class you took your first level in. Might encourage more 1-level dips, but only at first level, where I'm more ok with this.

JakOfAllTirades

2018-04-09, 10:49 AM

It's very odd that so many of you treat UA as if it were something owed to you.

Who said that? We're just junkies waiting for our next fix.

But I'm not an addict. I can quit anytime, really....

Daphne

2018-04-09, 10:56 AM

No, they can playtest their own stuff. Besides, do we really need to playtest releases like the lore master to know its bad?

Yes, we do. I don't want broken spells like Healing Spirit being released again without community feedback first.

Unoriginal

2018-04-09, 10:57 AM

You can also claim that others have this attitude, even when it's not present.

Good thing no one is doing this here, then.

I think at least some of us are actually in the position where we mind the bad stuff more than the missed months, I know I am.

I mean hey, you'll not have something to show every month, and even when you should have sometimes other things take time away. I significantly prefer them saying 'hey we're not doing UA this month' to 'Greyhawk Initiative part 2: now with more dice'.

So what?

They did something people don't like, it doesn't deserve a bashing.

I mean yes, I'll join in the bashing when the actual stuff is subpar or not to my tastes, but considering I at one time followed a D&D facebook page where every top comment on every UA article was 'this is awesome and there's no way it's unbalanced as is' I'm a bit jaded when it comes to UA. Most of the time I spend criticising it, when I can actually be bothered (which is admittedly rare) is also out of the hope that one of the designers lurks on this forum and takes notes on an op-heavy community's views as well as the general 'doesn't care too much about balance' community (you know, the ones who in 3.5 knew spellcasters were powerful but saw Sorcerers and Wizards as equals).

...so what you're saying is "yes, of course I bash them if I think the UA is **** or don't like it. I want the designers to listen to me, after all" ?

Bashing something is not the most efficient way to get its creator to listen to you.

Also, I'd argue that anything "op-heavy" is not fit for 5e, but that's my opinion.

I'll also argue that "op-heavy communities" don't care about balance either. I've never seen an optimizer says something like "3.5 Wizards are too strong, Wizards and Sorcerers should be on the same power level". Since, you know, the goal of optimization is to go to the maximum capacity level possible in X domain.

DizzyWood

2018-04-09, 11:13 AM

What I expect... people **** on game designers for not pandering to their personal opinions and tastes, or for not giving them free stuff they have no obligation to give.

Who am I kidding, you guys have already started that.

Aren't UA bashing threads fun?

Hehehehe I like you. Be my friend?

But seriously its free content why all the negative energy? ** rabble rabble ** this totally free thing creators are under no obligation to give me isn't perfect ** grabs pitchfork and torch ** Burn the sinners!!!!

I love UA even when it is in my opinion crap its still free content.

Anonymouswizard

2018-04-09, 11:19 AM

. Shadowblade .

2018-04-09, 11:27 AM

In mythology, called aqrabuamelu or girtablilu (the latter pathfinder also uses)... Scorrow in Eberron... Tlincalli in forgotten realms (and 5e VGtE)... originally appeared in DnD’s Mystara setting as ‘man-scorpions’

yes, also known as Nimmurian or scorpionfolk
thnx, I will add Scorrow to my notes about this race

Tetrasodium

2018-04-09, 11:32 AM

What I would love to see - Re-balances of the Artificer and Mystic Classes

What I would like to see - Feats for classes, new sub-races (Derro, some of the cooler rare elf sub-races fleshed out, etc.)

What I expect to see - another sneak preview of a few pages of MToF

I think Mearls has gone on record saying artificer is more likely to be mid year. I for one am kinda glad about that given the history of UA artificers. The school of invention is the most aetrificer-like one of the lot so far & it was not even an artificer archtype

A major reason I rarely participate in discussing UAs is these threads are page after page of speculation before the UA even comes out. Completely burning burying discussion of the UA once it does.

We as a community should start insisting these threads be labeled "official speculation thread"s so we can have an actual "official discussion thread" once the UA is released.
I kind of agree, but I think they probably look at them as part of getting a pulse on things in general. Usually there is a massive spinoff thread once it's out though.
Personally I'd like to see the oversized weapons table mearls mentioned in happyfunhour at one point & a good sized selection of what creatures are expected to be in mtof to make laying groundwork for them easier for those of us running our own campaigns.

strangebloke

2018-04-09, 11:34 AM

You heard it here guys, the only correct thing to do is to praise every UA that comes out because otherwise you're an ungrateful ****.

Seriously, any attempt to criticise is labelled bashing anyway. We criticise because we think that if they can't keep up once a month they should change to a slower schedule, and we get told off because we're hurt they aren't releasing free stuff. We think the stuff is unbalanced and needs refinement, or works better somewhere else, and we're told off because it's free and so we shouldn't complain.

Saying 'the brute is OP' or 'I hate the fluff of the spoor druid' is fine. The playtest material is there to be tested and thought through.

Griping that they aren't releasing enough content or that the Mearls is a bad person because the free playtest material is unbalanced is just childish. Sometimes they release new content, sometimes they don't. It's always been this way. They show some of the things they're working on and sometimes they don't. That's fine. UA is primarily done for their benefit (IE, to get feedback on whatever they're working on) not for ours. Complaining about how they aren't giving you a sixth of XGtE for free every month is just obnoxious.

Unoriginal

2018-04-09, 11:35 AM

You heard it here guys, the only correct thing to do is to praise every UA that comes out because otherwise you're an ungrateful ****.

Seriously, any attempt to criticise is labelled bashing anyway. We criticise because we think that if they can't keep up once a month they should change to a slower schedule, and we get told off because we're hurt they aren't releasing free stuff. We think the stuff is unbalanced and needs refinement, or works better somewhere else, and we're told off because it's free and so we shouldn't complain.

Labeling the UA to likely to be trash before it's even released is not criticism. Not constructive one, anyway. Nor is saying it's trash (or variations on the same theme) just because the designers are doing what people want personally.

Beside, you saying "any attempt to criticise is labelled bashing anyway" is kind of pretty hollow when you freely admitted you bash the UAs when you don't like them (both if it's due to their mechanical flaws or if they just don't fit your tastes) a second ago.

rbstr

2018-04-09, 11:35 AM

You heard it here guys, the only correct thing to do is to praise every UA that comes out because otherwise you're an ungrateful ****.

Come off it. Actual criticism and discussion is worthwhile and exactly what UA playtest releases are for.

But this kind of stuff?

...but it’s such a BS excuse that I frankly am having a very hard time giving a flying **** about UA anymore.

I needed to go to a doctor and have my jaw clamped shut after I read that. I just sat there slack-jawed for a week before I finally decided I needed medical attention.
Entitled and useless. WE get big ol' threads full of this kind of whiny unproductive crap and "stop doing X and release an Ebberon supplement" for every single UA.

Unoriginal

2018-04-09, 11:39 AM

Personally I'd like to see the oversized weapons table mearls mentioned in happyfunhour at one point

Oversized weapons table? Not sure I see how it'd be useful, the rules for weapons bigger than Medium are in the DMG.

jaappleton

2018-04-09, 11:44 AM

Come off it. Actual criticism and discussion is worthwhile and exactly what UA playtest releases are for.

But this kind of stuff?

Entitled and useless. Big ol' threads full of whiny unproductive crap and "stop doing X and release an Ebberon supplement" for every single UA.

Pardon the hell out of me for having gotten my hopes up about an article that only comes out once a month only to have the rug pulled out from under me one at the last damn second once too many times. Here's the UA since December:

December - No article
January - 3 subclasses: Spore Druid, Brute Fighter, School of Invention
February - Into the Wild
March - No article

So of the last 4 months, half the time there's been no article.

EDIT: Let me break down my thoughts on the articles, too.

December - Figures, they typically do this around the holidays. Really don't like it, because everyone knows when the holidays are, so its not really a valid excuse. But its typical.

January - Spore is actually really unique and I'm thrilled about using Wild Shape for something different besides animal forms, I'm actually incredibly excited about what that can bring for future Druid Circles. Brute? Seems like an over-enhanced Champion, and doesn't really need to exist because its simply too much of an enhancement of an existing subclass, while not differentiating it enough from the Champion itself. Just doesn't seem necessary. Invention? Seems like a Wizard with a condensed Wild Magic table, and while I'm not entirely against the concept of it, I think it could use some refinement. Also don't like the armor being tied to it. but there's potential for something solid.

February - Not my thing, as I'm typically a player. But I can see the usefulness.

March - ****ing bull.

Unoriginal

2018-04-09, 11:48 AM

So of the last 4 months, half the time there's been no article.

It's not an enjoyable feeling, but so what?

It's not like people are nicer when stuff do get published.

Also, interesting way to pick up the months. You could also have said "in the last 3 months, there has been 2 articles" or how many there has been in the last 12 months (10, if I'm not mistaken).

rbstr

2018-04-09, 11:50 AM

the_brazenburn

2018-04-09, 11:54 AM

It's almost like the released a whole book of new stuff in November and took a bit of a break on player options?

And the last ~two month's Mearls has been doing that build-a-subclass stream and put out a UA or two worth of stuff.

Yeah, but they don't have to focus UA on player options. I'd really prefer it if they gave us more things like Into the Wilds from February. That was some really neat material.

jaappleton

2018-04-09, 11:58 AM

It's almost like the released a whole book of new stuff in November and took a bit of a break on player options?

And the last ~two month's Mearls has been doing that build-a-subclass stream and put out a UA or two worth of stuff.

But the material on those isn't actually available anywhere. Its only thanks to diligence of a Reddit user that the actual mechanics of each are listed and written down for use.

Unoriginal

2018-04-09, 12:01 PM

But the material on those isn't actually available anywhere. Its only thanks to diligence of a Reddit user that the actual mechanics of each are listed and written down for use.

Actually they're not for use. Mearl's pretty clear they're not even fit for release yet.

alchahest

2018-04-09, 12:01 PM

Wait a moment. This implies you don't want content playtested.

That's a terrible, terrible idea.

I'm not sure that the claim UA is used for playtesting is as valid as people say. Remember that 5E is when they actually did a playtest for the core rules. People spoke up and said "hey we like this" when the fighter had superiority dice as a part of it's normal kit, and those people were removed from the playtest. So not getting UA doesn't mean we're going to have more or less playtesting. It just means we don't get the little sneak previews of the things they've already decided on.

jaappleton

2018-04-09, 12:02 PM

I'm not sure that the claim UA is used for playtesting is as valid as people say. Remember that 5E is when they actually did a playtest for the core rules. People spoke up and said "hey we like this" when the fighter had superiority dice as a part of it's normal kit, and those people were removed from the playtest. So not getting UA doesn't mean we're going to have more or less playtesting. It just means we don't get the little sneak previews of the things they've already decided on.

The designers themselves has said how integral playtesting is.

Tanarii

2018-04-09, 12:05 PM

Every UA starts off with the following:

This Is Unofficial Material
The material here is presented for playtesting and to
spark your imagination. These game mechanics are in
draft form, usable in your campaign but not refined by
final game design and editing. They aren’t officially part
of the game and aren’t permitted in D&D Adventurers
League events.
If we decide to make this material official, it will be
refined based on your feedback, and then it will appear
in a D&D book

I'd say it's pretty clear it's intended for our playtesting, and they are looking for our feedback.

jaappleton

2018-04-09, 12:11 PM

There’s going to be a Rick & Morty / 5E crossover.

No, seriously.

MaxWilson

2018-04-09, 12:12 PM

Yes, we do. I don't want broken spells like Healing Spirit being released again without community feedback first.

I didn't need to playtest Healing Spirit to know that it's broken. WotC shouldn't have needed it either. Two minutes of thought would have told them that you can't just invert the DMG table on damage-per-spell-level, use that as healing numbers, and publish that in a book for a spell with a bonus action cast, no less.

It's enough that I've used Aura of Vitality in play and seen it used. Having seen that, Healing Spirit's probable usage was obvious.

ProsecutorGodot

2018-04-09, 12:13 PM

What I'd like - Playtest ready versions of the Mike Mearls Happy Fun Hour subclasses

What I expect - Brute redesign and a random extra subclass out of nowhere, or more downtime activities that are far too specific for a player to use in most cases

I'd be pretty hyped for the Warlord MM came up with to end up as a playtest class, it hits a lot of what I want out of a supporting character.

Unoriginal

2018-04-09, 12:16 PM

The Happy Fun Hour stuff won't be ready for months

jaappleton

2018-04-09, 12:22 PM

The Happy Fun Hour stuff won't be ready for months

I’m actually going to agree.

They’re very careful about presenting something they think is close to finished. Considering how Crawford is the balance guy, it needs to be reviewed by him a few times before it’s even considered.

And since they’re putting the finishing touches on Mord’s Tome, he won’t look at it for awhile.

strangebloke

2018-04-09, 12:28 PM

Social encounter rules would be totally boss to see here, actually. (if it was done halfway decently)

DizzyWood

2018-04-09, 12:30 PM

You heard it here guys, the only correct thing to do is to praise every UA that comes out because otherwise you're an ungrateful ****.

Seriously, any attempt to criticise is labelled bashing anyway. We criticise because we think that if they can't keep up once a month they should change to a slower schedule, and we get told off because we're hurt they aren't releasing free stuff. We think the stuff is unbalanced and needs refinement, or works better somewhere else, and we're told off because it's free and so we shouldn't complain.

You can be critical I mean that is sort of the point of play testing this stuff. I (and some others it seems) are just wondering why there is all of this anger and entitlement?

It seems the same as people saying "wow this free t-**** the radio station sent me is not great quality. We should boycott the station and flood the internet with troll bs to make it hard for them to do their jobs." Then I am just over here like... "wow this free t-shirt is crap, meh I can mow the lawn in it so I guess its cool."

Anonymouswizard

2018-04-09, 12:47 PM

You can be critical I mean that is sort of the point of play testing this stuff. I (and some others it seems) are just wondering why there is all of this anger and entitlement?

It seems the same as people saying "wow this free t-**** the radio station sent me is not great quality. We should boycott the station and flood the internet with troll bs to make it hard for them to do their jobs." Then I am just over here like... "wow this free t-shirt is crap, meh I can mow the lawn in it so I guess its cool."

I've not really seen that.

I've seen 'I was promised a free t-shirt every month but it seems like half the time they're busy and every few months they give me boxers and tell me it's like a t-shirt'. I repeat again, I think the main problem that's causing rage is that UA gets continuously cancelled and we still often get bad content (not as much as we used to *cough* random character generation), I think there'd be much less rage if they instead promised a schedule they can keep to.

I remember when UA was every two months, and it seemed to have the most consistent release schedule and content quality it's ever had. I think that's partially because they never had to throw together a UA at the last minute, and could spend two months polishing something they were excited about.

I am looking forward to seeing the Kraken Warlock appear sometime around June-August, I think the Happy Fun Hour Subclasses Club could be a great occasional UA series, in a 'every 4-6 months we present updated versions of the rough draft subclasses' way. Almost like a better version of when they tried to do the 'DMsGuild Showcase' UA article(s).

Another cool idea I hope they use UA for: setting primers. Would work really well for a 'every 2-3 months' version of UA, where you get brief setting information (with a note that box sets are available on DMsGuild), and basic rules for things like Spelljamming, Defiling/Preserving, or domain management.

Tetrasodium

2018-04-09, 12:54 PM

Oversized weapons table? Not sure I see how it'd be useful, the rules for weapons bigger than Medium are in the DMG.

Thanks, I did not realize that. At the time he mentioned it, I seemed to get got the impression that the stuff he was talking about was player focused & different from the dmg278 blurb. That is disappointing

MaxWilson

2018-04-09, 12:58 PM

I remember when UA was every two months, and it seemed to have the most consistent release schedule and content quality it's ever had. I think that's partially because they never had to throw together a UA at the last minute, and could spend two months polishing something they were excited about.

Or maybe because DM's Guild didn't exist yet, so Mike & co. felt more social pressure to create new content themselves instead of just pointing to what's out there from other people.

Personally, given how sloppy I know WotC to be with published rules, I cannot comprehend how anyone's expectations for UA are not being met. Yes, some of it is interesting and some of it is garbage, but why does the garbage surprise you?

DivisibleByZero

2018-04-09, 01:33 PM

Social encounter rules would be totally boss to see here, actually. (if it was done halfway decently)

Social encounters are role play.
We do not need rules for role playing.
I don't need the book to tell me how to play my character, in character, in a social encounter.

Would you happen to have an example of what you had in mind? Because if not, this is quite possibly the worst idea I have ever heard.

Regitnui

2018-04-09, 01:36 PM

strangebloke

2018-04-09, 01:55 PM

Social encounters are role play.
We do not need rules for role playing.
I don't need the book to tell me how to play my character, in character, in a social encounter.

Would you happen to have an example of what you had in mind? Because if not, this is quite possibly the worst idea I have ever heard.

There already is a 'social combat' ability. It's wrapped up in Insight/deception/intimidation/persuasion, but it's just not that interactive, and like all skills, the exact effects and DCs that are going to be in play are uncertain.

This is what I worked on a little bit with Grod:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?553556-Enhanced-5e-Project-Social-Conflict-Rules

What I would want is: Rules (even if optional) for multi-check 'arguments.' Many social encounters should still just be one check, but I'd like to see codified rules for how to set up a protracted, dramatic social battle. Like two pretenders to the throne trying to convince an audience that they are the more legitimate claimant. Or a thief trying to talk a tribe of orcs into fighting alongside the party against the goblins.

To that end, I would like:
1. Natural tit-for-tat 'flow' of social combat that closely mimics how real-life arguments work. Grod did this with integrity and 'social combat action options' but I could also see a 'proposition-rebuttal-summary' flow, with three checks allowing the speakers to toss victory back and forth.
2. Mechanical benefits. Like, you can have a whole conversation with the enemy warlord, and maybe you're trying to persuade him, but maybe you're just trying to piss him off and make him reckless. Would add a lot of fun to that pre-combat interaction.
3. Clear rules for when, as far as the guy you are talking to is concerned, "This conversation is over." Social encounters have a habit of becoming interminable.
3. Risk. You try to intimidate someone, there's a risk of them overturning that interaction and intimidating you in return. (represented through a fear status condition or similar.) There's also a risk of angering someone.

Tanarii

2018-04-09, 01:55 PM

Social encounters are role play.
Everything is roleplay.

DMG already has tables for DMs that feel that there is a chance of failure or success in a social encounter, just like any other question of resolution.

Clearly the designers already don't agree that your approach to social encounters must be universal.

WOTC_GM

2018-04-09, 01:58 PM

Maybe something similar to FATE's social encounters, where a tense argument runs off "combat", using social attacks and social defences?

That's hardly sounds like something they would include as UA content though.. that would be a total overhaul of the entire D&D RP system.

jaappleton

2018-04-09, 01:59 PM

That's hardly sounds like something they would include as UA content though.. that would be a total overhaul of the entire D&D RP system.

-sees username-
-sees 'they'-
-is confused-

:smalltongue:

strangebloke

2018-04-09, 02:04 PM

That's hardly sounds like something they would include as UA content though.. that would be a total overhaul of the entire D&D RP system.

Not really. They already have an 'aspects' mechanic in the form of traits/ideal/bonds/flaws. All they really need to add is some suggested skill DC's for discovering/using those aspects.

jaappleton

2018-04-09, 02:13 PM

It’s the Order Domain Cleric From Fun Hour

Beechgnome

2018-04-09, 02:13 PM

Cleric Order Domain: http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/unearthed-arcana/order-domain

jaappleton

2018-04-09, 02:18 PM

Cleric Order Domain: http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/unearthed-arcana/order-domain

And the lv6 feature is..... Interesting. Very abuseable, I think.

I like how Divine Strike deals Force. I think Voice of Authority is going to be nerfed in the number of uses allowed, as Rogues will love it for Sneak Attack and Paladins will love it for Smite.

strangebloke

2018-04-09, 02:22 PM

Holy spell slots Batman! That's a sweet level six feature!

Regitnui

2018-04-09, 02:22 PM

Looks warlordy. What with the commanding people to attack feature.

strangebloke

2018-04-09, 02:31 PM

Looks warlordy. What with the commanding people to attack feature.

Yeah, half warlord, half enchantment cleric.

To dig into why the sixth level ability is so good: it reduces the cost of any enchantment school spell to that of a first level spell, so long as you have a spell slot that needs to be refreshed.

DivisibleByZero

2018-04-09, 02:34 PM

And the lv6 feature is..... Interesting. Very abuseable, I think.

Holy spell slots Batman! That's a sweet level six feature!

Meh.
There are very few enchantment spells of level 2 or higher on the Cleric list that you'll actually be preparing. (Lvl2 needed because you can only regain a slot one level lower, so it doesn't work with 1st lvl spells). Suggestion. Hold person and monster. Dominate beast and person. Maybe confusion.
And it only gives back expended slots, it doesn't give you extra.

It's powerful, but it's also niche.

ProsecutorGodot

2018-04-09, 02:37 PM

Well, I got something I actually wanted.

It's like a unicorn.

strangebloke

2018-04-09, 02:37 PM

Meh.
There are very few enchantment spells of level 2 or higher on the Cleric list that you'll actually be preparing. (Lvl2 needed because you can only regain a slot one level lower, so it doesn't work with 1st lvl spells). Suggestion. Hold person and monster. Dominate beast and person. Maybe confusion.
And it only gives back expended slots, it doesn't give you extra.

It's powerful, but it's also niche.

I think a lot of higher level enchantment effects get really good if all you're doing is trading a high level slot for a slot that's one lower.

Daphne

2018-04-09, 02:38 PM

I got the feeling that maybe Voice of Authority is too strong. I would reduce it to WIS mod/long rest.

Tanarii

2018-04-09, 02:41 PM

Cleric Order Domain: http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/unearthed-arcana/order-domain
Man, what a waste of space. Couldn't they present us DMs with something useful, instead of constant player options?

:smallamused:

(Edit) Actual thoughts:

- It seems to be a LN and LE appropriate only domain

- On the level 6 ability, I feel like they looked at Diviners level 6, and then totally didn't realize that Diviners Wizards don't actual cast that many Divination spells from slots. Whereas enchantment spells from Slots are powerful and commonly used. And they get plenty from their domain spells.

Consensus

2018-04-09, 02:45 PM

I don't think I'm a fan of it, it seems pretty flavor-less.

DivisibleByZero

2018-04-09, 02:47 PM

I think a lot of higher level enchantment effects get really good if all you're doing is trading a high level slot for a slot that's one lower.

.... If you have a slot one level lower that has already been spent....
And all of them complete for concentration, so forget about any concentration spells at all if you want to use this feature.

Like I said, it's powerful, but it's also very niche.

alchahest

2018-04-09, 02:47 PM

I got the feeling that maybe Voice of Authority is too strong. I would reduce it to WIS mod/long rest.

it requires a: spending a slot and b: the attacker spending their reaction. it runs up against everything else someone might use a reaction for (opportunity attacks / sentinel attacks / mage slayer attacks / shield spells / misty escape etc)

strangebloke

2018-04-09, 02:49 PM

I don't think I'm a fan of it, it seems pretty flavor-less.
???

Three "teamwork"abilities and two enchantment abilities? This class practically screams "coercion."

Ventruenox

2018-04-09, 02:50 PM

I do see and odd possibility with a College of Glamour multiclass. Instead of performing for 1 minute for a mass Charm effect, You can get it for a round with Channeling Divinity. Combine that with Mantle of Majesty and you can get a free Command spell as a bonus action to one of your prone targets.

Too bad it's MAD.

Tetrasodium

2018-04-09, 02:50 PM

Holy spell slots Batman! That's a sweet level six feature!

It's nice yes, but the number of cleric spells that are enchantment is pretty limited. Antipathy/sympathy, bane, bless, calm emotions, command, gaes, hold person, zone of truth. It does however mean that bane & bless can be cast a lot & those are great cleric spells. This screams for a multiclass with bard, wizard, or similar but it's an interesting cleric archtype

strangebloke

2018-04-09, 02:51 PM

OvisCaedo

2018-04-09, 02:51 PM

Hmmm. Kind of amusing. Seems like you'd have some very gamey interactions between spellslot/upcast juggling and giving a rogue or paladin reaction attacks. Their enchantment spell list in general is sort of limited, but some of the spells are fairly useful. Though you might find yourself upcasting first levels for effect.

The channel divinity isn't really bad, since you can drop "agro" from yourself and potentially knock prone, but does seem kind of weird to me, and almost any time I see the "charmed" effect I wonder if they're remembering what it actually does.

alchahest

2018-04-09, 02:52 PM

I just love the idea of one of these as a conquest paladin's second in command. popping off his channel divinity to prone a bunch of people, so the paladin can fear them. it's not like a super combo tech but it is fun.

Nidgit

2018-04-09, 02:54 PM

it requires a: spending a slot and b: the attacker spending their reaction. it runs up against everything else someone might use a reaction for (opportunity attacks / sentinel attacks / mage slayer attacks / shield spells / misty escape etc)
There's some synergy to be had between the 1st and 17th level abilities. Hit someone with Divine Strike and then Healing Word your Rogue for an immediate SA+2d8.

A lot of the abilities seem very circumstantially useful but powerful in those instances.

Nidgit

2018-04-09, 02:55 PM

Question:

Bless targets three people. Do they each get a reaction attack?
It mentions that you only pick one ally to react if your spell targets multiple.

KorvinStarmast

2018-04-09, 02:55 PM

I got the feeling that maybe Voice of Authority is too strong. I would reduce it to WIS mod/long rest. NVM, read the wrong skill when I referred to the UA.

alchahest

2018-04-09, 02:55 PM

which is part of why so many want a real warlord I think. This, as a full caster with some warlordy abilities, is an excellent start.

Unoriginal

2018-04-09, 02:56 PM

I think they're going to limit the number of use of Order's Dominion

Now I'm wondering if they're going to do Chaos Domain.

Consensus

2018-04-09, 02:56 PM

???

Three "teamwork"abilities and two enchantment abilities? This class practically screams "coercion."

Order just doesn't seem 'coersion' to me. I guess my preference for playing lawful characters is showing, because I just don't feel that that's a particularly 'orderly' thing to do. It's just my instinctive and subjective opinion though. The teamwork stuff, yes I suppose, and I do particularly like the first level ability being a fan of the warlord niche. (A paladin with good wis who likes casting bless would find plenty of use in a 1 level order cleric dip)

alchahest

2018-04-09, 02:56 PM

Daphne

2018-04-09, 03:00 PM

how is that different from how it works now?
Channel Divinity If you have loads of encounters and lots of rests, it seems fine as it, and if you have the five minute adventure day, your model is the OP one.

Not worth calling this "too strong" ... and consider also that at higher levels, many of the foes will have decent wisdom saves and decent wisdom scores.

The duration is one round. Either the party takes advantage of it, or they don't.

I like the idea. I'd need to ponder this and see how it works at the table, but the low level abilities are softly suggesting "power creep" to me. (Love Voice of Authority in terms of the buff it offers, if the ally chooses to spend a reaction on it).

Read the UA, Voice of Authority is not a Channel Divinity ability.

GlenSmash!

2018-04-09, 03:01 PM

I'm sure I'm in the minority, but I always prefer off the what see what sticks optional DM stuff over more player options.

I prefer stuff that might improve my whole game, over something my players will never even know exists.

Still I'll give it a look over to see if there is anything I like.

the_brazenburn

2018-04-09, 03:02 PM

I think they're going to limit the number of use of Order's Dominion

Now I'm wondering if they're going to do Chaos Domain.

They absolutely better.

Taking the alignment out of alignment concepts like "order" is just asking for trouble. Personall, I'd never allow an Order cleric if there wasn't an Anarchy one as well.

KorvinStarmast

2018-04-09, 03:03 PM

Read the UA, Voice of Authority is not a Channel Divinity ability. See my edit, I read the UA (thank you), but had the two mixed up as I was thinking about the answer. (Your suggestion puts it into the same realm as channel divinity).

Disagree that it's too strong, but that might be dependent on which ally in the party has or uses reactions a lot as part of their kit. In some cases, it becomes an opportunity cost.

If all that the cleric does is casts buffs, however, you might argue that it's strong but that is also an opportunity cost in re the other spells not being cast, or other action not taken.

As to "too strong" what tiers of play are you referring to? How do you see it scaling as the party levels go up? For example, at level 1 you'd expect to see this be used with Bless with some frequency. As levels go up, and other spells requiring concentration become choices, not all of them are buffs/ally affecting spells.
Another use I can see is with healing word/reaction attack to a downed party member.
Do you see that as being too strong?

Tanarii

2018-04-09, 03:04 PM

I'm sure I'm in the minority, but I always prefer off the what see what sticks optional DM stuff over more player options.

I prefer stuff that might improve my whole game, over something my players will never even know exists.It's not just you. But my bias is clear ... I always DM.

If I played a lot I'd want player content and be disappointed by DM content.

DivisibleByZero

2018-04-09, 03:08 PM

I think they're going to limit the number of use of Order's Dominion

It's inherently limited.

You need to first be casting spells to open slots which will theoretically be regained.
All the spells that can regain a slot require concentration, so one or possibly two in a fight. And that's if you aren't concentrating on something else.

So first you need to start off casting something. Let's say it's Bless (a), or maybe Spirit Guardians (b). Whatever. You're probably going to concentrate on that for the entire encounter.
In the next encounter you can cast Hold Person (if you're fighting humanoids) or Suggestion or something (a). Or (b) you cast Confusion (if you had it prepared) or Dominate Beast (if you're fighting beasts). Now you get that slot back. But that was your concentration for that fight.
Then on the third fight it will depend on what other spells you've cast to see what other slots you have open now.

It's limited because all the spells which make it happen are concentration based. You're either concentrating already, or you're dropping concentration to spend a second slot to get a lower level slot back, which is not an ideal scenario.

It's good, yes.
But it isn't anywhere near as good as some of you are making it sound.

ProsecutorGodot

2018-04-09, 03:10 PM

Order just doesn't seem 'coersion' to me. I guess my preference for playing lawful characters is showing, because I just don't feel that that's a particularly 'orderly' thing to do. It's just my instinctive and subjective opinion though. The teamwork stuff, yes I suppose, and I do particularly like the first level ability being a fan of the warlord niche. (A paladin with good wis who likes casting bless would find plenty of use in a 1 level order cleric dip)

Commanding and Dominating someone doesn't have to be a negative, that's where the good aligned character shows their restraint in only using this divine power on those working against law and order. The class does rely on coercion a bit though, the Channel Divinity is a forceful move against their will. It actually reminds me a bit of Conquest Paladin but significantly less tyrannical.

I also play lawful characters most often and this seemed like a pretty good choice for a character I'm playing right now.

KorvinStarmast

2018-04-09, 03:13 PM

It actually reminds me a bit of Conquest Paladin but significantly less tyrannical. I'd like to be able to play test this with real people fro about level 1-8. Problem is, our regular games are having some real problem happening already, due to RL conflicts in schedules, so I am going to have to be disappointed I think.

Ventruenox

2018-04-09, 03:17 PM

All the spells that can regain a slot require concentration, so one or possibly two in a fight. And that's if you aren't concentrating on something else.

What about an upcast Command, Zone of Truth, or Geas?

Spamotron

2018-04-09, 03:19 PM

They absolutely better.

Taking the alignment out of alignment concepts like "order" is just asking for trouble. Personall, I'd never allow an Order cleric if there wasn't an Anarchy one as well.

On the Happy Fun Hour Mearls addressed this. He felt that a "chaos," domain already existed in the Trickery domain and thought there was too much redundancy between the concepts.

strangebloke

2018-04-09, 03:20 PM

It's good, yes.
But it isn't anywhere near as good as some of you are making it sound.

First of all, there's a good chance you'll cast 2-3 concentration spells in a longer/harder combat, either because you lose one or because it becomes irrelevant. If you cast hold monster and the target dies, well... cast it again!

Secondly, Command doesn't require concentration, and can be upcast for reasonably good payoff.

Cast it at fifth level, make five targets grovel for one round, get a fourth level spell back. Effective cost? 1 1st level spell.

Cynthaer

2018-04-09, 03:21 PM

They absolutely better.

Taking the alignment out of alignment concepts like "order" is just asking for trouble. Personall, I'd never allow an Order cleric if there wasn't an Anarchy one as well.

In the stream, Mearls said he picked Order as the one to do because the other alignments didn't really have as much thematic and design space that wasn't covered already—Good runs up against Life and Light, Evil runs up against Death, and Chaos runs up against Trickery.

Not saying it's impossible to do, but that's the stated reason he at least started with Order.

Out of curiosity, what angle would you take for a Chaos-aligned domain that isn't Trickery?

Unoriginal

2018-04-09, 03:26 PM

It's inherently limited.

You need to first be casting spells to open slots which will theoretically be regained.
All the spells that can regain a slot require concentration, so one or possibly two in a fight. And that's if you aren't concentrating on something else.

So first you need to start off casting something. Let's say it's Bless (a), or maybe Spirit Guardians (b). Whatever. You're probably going to concentrate on that for the entire encounter.
In the next encounter you can cast Hold Person (if you're fighting humanoids) or Suggestion or something (a). Or (b) you cast Confusion (if you had it prepared) or Dominate Beast (if you're fighting beasts). Now you get that slot back. But that was your concentration for that fight.
Then on the third fight it will depend on what other spells you've cast to see what other slots you have open now.

It's limited because all the spells which make it happen are concentration based. You're either concentrating already, or you're dropping concentration to spend a second slot to get a lower level slot back, which is not an ideal scenario.

It's good, yes.
But it isn't anywhere near as good as some of you are making it sound.

I might be mistaken, but can't you just regain the spell slot you just spent casting the triggering spell?

Matrix_Walker

2018-04-09, 03:27 PM

Order's Dominion has got to be a Channel Divinity option. Usually, it's in the title, not the text, which is probably the source of the mistake.

strangebloke

2018-04-09, 03:29 PM

I might be mistaken, but can't you just regain the spell slot you just spent casting the triggering spell?

"must be of a lower level than the spell you cast..."

So to get maximum efficiency you need to cast:

1st level
2nd level (regain 1st level spell)
3rd level (regain 2nd level spell)
1st level
...
etc. you can get an absurd number of spells out of this, but it's not really practical.

At sixth level it would be:
3 3rd level spells
6 2nd level spells
10 1st level spells

For a total of 19 spells, nearly double the spells you can normally cast, and a total of 31 spell points, about 50% more than you normally get at that level. Even getting a third of that benefit makes this a crazy good class feature, and it gets even better at higher levels.

ProsecutorGodot

2018-04-09, 03:34 PM

Order's Dominion has got to be a Channel Divinity option. Usually, it's in the title, not the text, which is probably the source of the mistake.

Not all of the subclasses have an extra channel divinity option at level 6. Life, Grave, Forge and Arcana don't, just to name a few.

In fact, on closer inspection it's easier to name the subclasses that do gain a second channel divinity option, so I don't see why you would think it was meant to be one.

Ventruenox

2018-04-09, 03:34 PM

You can get an absurd number of spells out of this, but it's not really efficient.

What about a Conquest Paladin multiclass who Fear-locks prone enemies, then uses the recovered slot for smiting?

Nevermind. Fear is from the Illusion school.

Knaight

2018-04-09, 03:38 PM

Cast it at fifth level, make five targets grovel for one round, get a fourth level spell back. Effective cost? 1 1st level spell.

This is pretty questionable - you can't just subtract spell levels from each other in a meaningful way, they're all distinct variables. More than that, some of the implications of doing this are ridiculous enough to suggest that it just doesn't work. For instance, a 20th level wizard with 89 first level spell slots and no higher level spells is, by this model, equivalent to a 20th level wizard with their default spells.

strangebloke

2018-04-09, 03:38 PM

What about a Conquest Paladin multiclass who Fear-locks prone enemies, then uses the recovered slot for smiting?

Well, I mean, to get maximum benefit, you need to be doing nothing with your slots other than casting enchantment spells, at least with your 2nd level spells and higher...

I guess this does work though. At least as a way of burning through all those 1st level slots. And you get a really good concentration ability in the form of fear.

JakOfAllTirades

2018-04-09, 03:41 PM

This is going to be quite useful for my homebrew campaign. I'm creating a pantheon of deities based on Jungian Archetypes, and Mearls is right that "chaos" is already covered by the Trickery domain. It's perfect for The Rebel and The Jester. But I didn't really have a good domain for the Ruler, and the Order domain is a perfect fit.

For those just tuning in, this is what I'm prattling on about:

https://www.cheatography.com/davidpol/cheat-sheets/jung-theory-12-common-archetypes/

Arkhios

2018-04-09, 03:43 PM

So... when is "today", exactly?

KorvinStarmast

2018-04-09, 03:45 PM

This is going to be quite useful for my homebrew campaign. I'm creating a pantheon of deities based on Jungian Archetypes, and Mearls is right that "chaos" is already covered by the Trickery domain. It's perfect for The Rebel and The Jester. But I didn't really have a good domain for the Ruler, and the Order domain is a perfect fit. It's great to see a post where someone is positive about play testing this UA. I'd love to hear how it turns out for your table.

alchahest

2018-04-09, 03:50 PM

First of all, there's a good chance you'll cast 2-3 concentration spells in a longer/harder combat, either because you lose one or because it becomes irrelevant. If you cast hold monster and the target dies, well... cast it again!

Secondly, Command doesn't require concentration, and can be upcast for reasonably good payoff.

Cast it at fifth level, make five targets grovel for one round, get a fourth level spell back. Effective cost? 1 1st level spell.

no, the effective cost is your fifth level spell slot. that's not equal to a first level slot just because it's higher than what you got back by a single level.

DivisibleByZero

2018-04-09, 03:51 PM

What about an upcast Command, Zone of Truth, or Geas?

Because you're casting Zone of Truth and Geas all over the place, right?

Command is the ONLY spell that you'll actually have prepared, and actually cast repeatedly, which isn't concentration. Now it just actually might get some mileage after you reach 3rd level. Every single other spell that you'll use this with is concentration.
And if you're concentrating on ANY other spell, such as the PLETHORA of good Cleric concentration spells, then you AREN'T using this feature.
Concentration and the very few enchantment spells on the Cleric's list are the limiting factors.

JakOfAllTirades

2018-04-09, 04:06 PM

It's great to see a post where someone is positive about play testing this UA. I'd love to hear how it turns out for your table.

It's a work in progress, so it'll be a while before I can actually run the game. Meanwhile, my home brewed Darkness domain basically sucks. I need something to oppose the Light domain, though.

Also, Mearl's Pact of the Kraken for Warlocks (from his Happy Fun Hour) will be featured in my game as well; Krakens are one of the BBEG's and they've got cultist followers. This is a much better fit than the GOO pact.

Beechgnome

2018-04-09, 04:08 PM

I think the 6th level feature is unquestionably better than the equivalent diviner ability.

Yes the cleric enchantment list is small, but the ability to upcast all those first level spells (bless bane command) and hold person too will really make that ability go far. Really every combat you'll be casting either hold person when fighting humanoids, bane when fighting multiple non humanoids or bless when fighting one really tough guy. Then command spamming as needed. And using very few slots to do it.

I've played a diviner and the challenge with that 6th level ability was that a) you had fewer spells than clerics to prepare; b) divination spells rarely if ever scale at higher levels, so upcasting is just wasting a higher slot; c) divination spells are niche and, with the exception of see Invisibility, also concentration.

Even then, I worked it hard and my DM was often shaking his head in frustration at my seemingly inexhaustible spells. So to my eye this is better and probably too good.

ShareDVI

2018-04-09, 04:11 PM

Bard 1 dip on this is OP as heck.

You get back spell slots on upcasting not only your Commands, Heroisms, Hold Persons, Banes and Blesses, but also Charm Persons, Sleeps and (!) Dissonant Whispers (one of the best single-target low-level damage spells).

This makes it better than the Mind Spike build because it avoids the whole concentration issue.

Warlock gives you Hex, which could work in melee but there's not much point in upcast-extending it unless you want to curse the whole city for some reason. Specifically GOO Warlock works as well as a Bard replacement, while ArchFey gives you only Sleep. You get EB too. But you lag on spell slot progression that way.

Alternatively use Druid and never go without a horde of befriended animals.

Ventruenox

2018-04-09, 04:11 PM

Command is the ONLY spell that you'll actually have prepared, and actually cast repeatedly, which isn't concentration.

Yeah, you are right about that one.

I do want to find some way to multiclass this Cleric with Glamour Bard, though. That combo gives a definite Televangelist or Cult Leader vibe that could be fun to play.

ProsecutorGodot

2018-04-09, 04:18 PM

Because you're casting Zone of Truth and Geas all over the place, right?

Command is the ONLY spell that you'll actually have prepared, and actually cast repeatedly, which isn't concentration. Now it just actually might get some mileage after you reach 3rd level. Every single other spell that you'll use this with is concentration.
And if you're concentrating on ANY other spell, such as the PLETHORA of good Cleric concentration spells, then you AREN'T using this feature.
Concentration and the very few enchantment spells on the Cleric's list are the limiting factors.

Well you don't actually have to have Command prepared at all, so there's that. Upcasting seems like a great way to make use of the feature since the list of enchantment spells is admittedly small.

The strength of the feature might be overblown a bit, but it's incredibly comparable to the College of Glamour 6th level feature Mantle of Majesty that lets you spam Command out for a minute. This is better in some ways because it enables you to sort of spam out a command spell, potentially on multiple targets, and keep concentration on those better spells you mention. It's also not a limited duration so you can mete it out over the day instead of saving it only for a crucial moment.

Mantle of Majesty is a pretty okay class feature, having a side grade to it wouldn't be a bad thing at all.

Matrix_Walker

2018-04-09, 04:27 PM

I got confirmation via tweet from JC,

I was wrong, Order's Divinity is not meant to be a channel Divinity option.

Kane0

2018-04-09, 04:32 PM

Not bad, not bad. I like the synergy it promotes and the multiclassing potential.

This also sets a precedent for other happy hour creations (warlord!), but i'm not sure if this will dilute or bolster an actual warlord.

ShareDVI

2018-04-09, 04:34 PM

I got confirmation via tweet from JC,

I was wrong, Order's Divinity is not meant to be a channel Divinity option.

And I got a confirmation that it deliberatly allows non-cleric spells

Davrix

2018-04-09, 04:43 PM

I wonder how two levels of this would synergise with something like conquest paladin. It would definitely give off that holy commander vibe and the KNEEEL BEFOR ZOD moment.

Temperjoke

2018-04-09, 04:49 PM

This class definitely seems like a party's glue; it can direct allies, possibly control crowds depending on their saves. And it's good to see a more "Lawful neutral"-flavored domain. This cleric says "Doesn't matter whether it's good or evil, it's still the law." which is a flavor that has been a little neglected, I think. The deities that it mentions cover the whole range of good, neutral, and evil, with the big emphasis being on Lawful.

Order's Dominion seems pretty strong, but I wonder how strong it actually is. To me it seems more of a incidental benefit rather than something to specifically target. I mean, it seems silly to cast a spell with the intent on regaining a lower spell slot, if you needed that level of spell cast you could have just upcast it instead. It's not something I would bank on either, since most enchantment spells (that i oculd tell from a quick scan of the PHB) require a failed wisdom saving throw from the target. Granted, there's a good chance of that happening, but if you didn't need an CC spell at the time, the chance to recover a lower spell slot doesn't feel like incentive enough to go that route over another spell.

KorvinStarmast

2018-04-09, 04:53 PM

And I got a confirmation that it deliberatly allows non-cleric spells

Voice of Authority

Starting at 1st level, you can invoke the power of law to drive an ally to attack. Immediately after you cast a spell on an ally using a spell slot of 1st level or higher, that ally can use their reaction to make one weapon attack against a target of your choice that you can see. If the spell targets more than one ally, you choose the ally who can make the attack. I think I am beginning to see Daphne's concern.

Compare this to Battle Master's ability to trigger an attack by an ally using superiority dice, and how many per day the BM gets, this compares favorably. Might need a tweak, but a limiting factor is that when choosing to do this, other spell options are precluded, so, opportunity cost.

ShareDVI

2018-04-09, 04:57 PM

Theodoxus

2018-04-09, 05:09 PM

Kinda depends on the needs of the cleric. If you're the only healer, well, you'll probably be getting more reaction attacks than otherwise - but still, at 3rd level, that's a max of 6 a day. A Battlemaster will have 4/short rest opportunities. Most BMs aren't willing to trade their one attack (with possible bonus action off hand attack) for another, unless there is a really good reason (level 3 rogue getting sneak, or a paladin wanting to burn a smite, possibly...)

The Order cleric isn't wasting their own opportunity, since they're casting a spell that benefits their team (healing, blessing, restoring, whatever). But it's fewer times a day, and is pretty niche.

I think it looks worse (more OP) on paper than it will be in average games. Overall, I like this. Heavy armor makes more sense on it than life... Reminds me of Pandion Knights, and that makes me really happy.

rbstr

2018-04-09, 05:12 PM

Voice of Authority
I think I am beginning to see Daphne's concern.

Compare this to Battle Master's ability to trigger an attack by an ally using superiority dice, and how many per day the BM gets, this compares favorably. Might need a tweak, but a limiting factor is that when choosing to do this, other spell options are precluded, so, opportunity cost.

It's really not that strong. It's a nice bonus but constrained in several ways:
Spells do way more damage than the average attack. The best case is a rogue and that's like ~45 on hit at level 19? That's a 5th level spell of damage and nothing else hits nearly as hard without also costing that person's resources. Using slots above level 1-2 is not damage efficient at all in most cases.
It eats the person's reaction - in the rogue's case that can be really big.
Spamming low-level spells to trigger the attack is a super inefficient use of your action economy. Most buffs take an action. Bonus action spells mean you're stuck with a cantrip/attack action.
No buffs stack or make sense to spam.

So. like, it makes in-combat healing and buffing a bit more attractive but it's not upsetting anything.

KorvinStarmast

2018-04-09, 05:19 PM

It's really not that strong. It's a nice bonus but constrained in several ways:
Spells do way more damage than the average attack. The best case is a rogue and that's like ~45 on hit at level 19? That's a 5th level spell of damage and nothing else hits nearly as hard without also costing that person's resources. Using slots above level 1-2 is not damage efficient at all in most cases.
It eats the person's reaction - in the rogue's case that can be really big.
Spamming low-level spells to trigger the attack is a super inefficient use of your action economy. Most buffs take an action. Bonus action spells mean you're stuck with a cantrip/attack action.
No buffs stack or make sense to spam.

So. like, it makes in-combat healing and buffing a bit more attractive but it's not upsetting anything. Does a rogue's reaction attack trigger sneak attack? (Sometimes, I guess?)

jaappleton

2018-04-09, 05:30 PM

Does a rogue's reaction attack trigger sneak attack? (Sometimes, I guess?)

So long as they meet the other requirements (Advantage or an ally in range), yes.

Sneak Attack is once per turn. Not once per round.

ProsecutorGodot

2018-04-09, 05:33 PM

Does a rogue's reaction attack trigger sneak attack? (Sometimes, I guess?)
If they satisfy the conditions for a sneak attack it would. On a related note, Mearls has been pretty quick to mention on Happy Fun Hour that they're less concerned with class features helping rogues have more than one sneak attack in a round nowadays.

Ivellius

2018-04-09, 06:47 PM

If they satisfy the conditions for a sneak attack it would. On a related note, Mearls has been pretty quick to mention on Happy Fun Hour that they're less concerned with class features helping rogues have more than one sneak attack in a round nowadays.

Huh. I thought that was pretty much the reason a Warlord was considered never mechanically viable for 5e. Interesting.

I do think the flavor of this fits "Commander" a little better than "Order," and the features are probably a bit strong. The 17th-level feature also has a lot of synergy with Rogue Sneak Attacks / Paladin Smites, given that it too triggers by "turn" rather than round.

Unoriginal

2018-04-09, 07:03 PM

Huh. I thought that was pretty much the reason a Warlord was considered never mechanically viable for 5e. Interesting.

Mearls is literally working on making a Warlord class, so I don't think it was ever not considered mechanically viable.

Plus the Battlemaster can make others attack too.

Ventruenox

2018-04-09, 08:36 PM

How does this work for the action economy + multiclass synergy?

Mastermind Rogue 3 / Order Cleric X

Action: Cast Bless on another Rogue
Bonus Action: Cunning Action to Help the Rogue and grant advantage.
Rogue's Reaction: Sneak Attack off turn

Ivellius

2018-04-09, 08:37 PM

Mearls is literally working on making a Warlord class, so I don't think it was ever not considered mechanically viable.

Plus the Battlemaster can make others attack too.

Class option, you mean, which isn't the same thing as the Warlord class.

I never said I bought that argument (still don't), but that's the only thing I've seen people point to as a reason for why it just "can't" work in 5e.

Luccan

2018-04-09, 09:22 PM

Not entirely crazy about the "Law before all else" and "Letter of the law, justice doesn't matter" flavor they want to stick to it, but the subclass itself seems fun. I like the idea of a commander cleric and we have few enough subclasses like that in 5e, so I'm liking it. Incidentally, there have to be fewer cleric domains that don't get heavy armor than do at this point, so why wasn't heavy armor a standard cleric proficiency that got swapped based on domains?

DivisibleByZero

2018-04-09, 09:39 PM

Incidentally, there have to be fewer cleric domains that don't get heavy armor than do at this point, so why wasn't heavy armor a standard cleric proficiency that got swapped based on domains?

Because your subclass is designed to add to your base class, not take things away from it.

ATHATH

2018-04-09, 09:52 PM

I'd like to point out that, since you are your own ally, you can use Voice of Authority as sort of a ghetto-version of the Eldritch Knight's Improved War Magic ability that only works with self-buffs.

You'd still probably be better off making the party Rogue's day by giving him the reaction attack, but it's something to consider.

A two or three level dip into GOO Warlock to pick up some better Enchantment spells to upcast, some extra spell slots, and the Healing Word+Voice of Authority+Eldritch Blast+Agonizing Blast wombo combo seems pretty good for an Order Cleric.

GooeyChewie

2018-04-09, 10:22 PM

The first several abilities make me think the domain focuses on casting spells. You can have your friends make attacks when you buff them, and once you hit sixth level you can greatly expand the number of spells you can cast in a day. Then the 8th level ability boosts your attack, and the 17th level one depends on you personally attacking? That part seems a bit disjointed.

Tanarii

2018-04-09, 11:48 PM

Arkhios

2018-04-09, 11:55 PM

Pretty normal for Clerics. They are full casters, but they still hit things with a stick. With metal on the end of it.

Indeed. It's important to remember that by default (exceptions can and should exist) Clerics are not robe wearing "priests" as in games such as World of Warcraft. They tend to wear heavy-ish armor, and go to war shoulder to shoulder with the warriors.

Zalabim

2018-04-10, 07:20 AM

Because you're casting Zone of Truth and Geas all over the place, right?

Command is the ONLY spell that you'll actually have prepared, and actually cast repeatedly, which isn't concentration. Now it just actually might get some mileage after you reach 3rd level. Every single other spell that you'll use this with is concentration.
And if you're concentrating on ANY other spell, such as the PLETHORA of good Cleric concentration spells, then you AREN'T using this feature.
Concentration and the very few enchantment spells on the Cleric's list are the limiting factors.
So this cleric casts Command a lot. That seems really flavorful. If command weren't debilitating, you could target an ally with one of its extra targets for Voice of Authority.

I'd like to point out that, since you are your own ally, you can use Voice of Authority as sort of a ghetto-version of the Eldritch Knight's Improved War Magic ability that only works with self-buffs.

You'd still probably be better off making the party Rogue's day by giving him the reaction attack, but it's something to consider.

A two or three level dip into GOO Warlock to pick up some better Enchantment spells to upcast, some extra spell slots, and the Healing Word+Voice of Authority+Eldritch Blast+Agonizing Blast wombo combo seems pretty good for an Order Cleric.
Ah yes, the Cha/Wis/Heavy Armor/Ranged attacker build. I know that statline well. It a MAD MAD MAD world.

GooeyChewie

2018-04-10, 07:44 AM

Indeed. It's important to remember that by default (exceptions can and should exist) Clerics are not robe wearing "priests" as in games such as World of Warcraft. They tend to wear heavy-ish armor, and go to war shoulder to shoulder with the warriors.

True, but different domains focus more on spellcasting or more on attacking. Based on everything up to level 6 (aside from the heavy armor proficiency), I would have expected Potent Spellcasting rather than Divine Strike, and a 17th level ability which jives more with the “buff my allies” theme from Voice of Authority.

Unoriginal

2018-04-10, 07:56 AM

I find it funny that the Domain of Order would work pretty well for Drow Clerics.

Speaking of, the Tentacle Rod, which is basically the signature weapon of the Drow clergy this edition, would be pretty great to use with the Order Domain's powers.

ATHATH

2018-04-10, 09:24 AM

Ah yes, the Cha/Wis/Heavy Armor/Ranged attacker build. I know that statline well. It a MAD MAD MAD world.
The intention was to use Healing Word on the party's Rogue in order to give them an extra Sneak Attack, not yourself.

strangebloke

2018-04-10, 09:26 AM

It's great to see a post where someone is positive about play testing this UA. I'd love to hear how it turns out for your table.

My wife was going to use a homebrewed 'law' cleric for a short high-level (we start at level 16 and go to 20) campaign. She's likely going to use this now and that should be very interesting.

There's a good chance we'll have a conquest paladin in the group as well, so I think we'll get a pretty good feel for class synergy.

Theodoxus

2018-04-10, 09:29 AM

True, but different domains focus more on spellcasting or more on attacking. Based on everything up to level 6 (aside from the heavy armor proficiency), I would have expected Potent Spellcasting rather than Divine Strike, and a 17th level ability which jives more with the “buff my allies” theme from Voice of Authority.

Because what we need are things that are so internally synergistic that not taking them is deemed silly.

I like the choice. Play a dwarf and tank strength and just be a caster; or don't tank strength, and wade into melee shoulder to shoulder. Both options are viable. Heck, with the number of bonus action spells that clerics get, it could be argued that wading in to melee is the more viable option.

One thing I wish all cleric domains offered was a choice at 8th level. Something like: "At 8th level, you can choose to have Potent Spellcasting, adding your Wis Mod to cantrip damage, or Divine Strike, adding 1d8 [damage type] to your melee weapon attacks. Once chosen, the option can't be changed." (Or perhaps can only be changed when you level, to allow for changes in playstyle/gear.)

Willie the Duck

2018-04-10, 10:11 AM

Because what we need are things that are so internally synergistic that not taking them is deemed silly.
...
One thing I wish all cleric domains offered was a choice at 8th level. Something like: "At 8th level, you can choose to have Potent Spellcasting, adding your Wis Mod to cantrip damage, or Divine Strike, adding 1d8 [damage type] to your melee weapon attacks. Once chosen, the option can't be changed."

Actually, I like the ability to have these dis-synergy (dysergy? antigy?) be a lesser benefit than a perfectly synergistic pairing. Much like the mountain dwarf and the fact that most classes which best benefit from their stat boosts already have their proficiencies, a sub-class like this can have more good things in the mix if any one build doesn't perfectly benefit from all of them. That seems like a design success, rather than something to avoid.

strangebloke

2018-04-10, 10:14 AM

kardar233

2018-04-10, 11:05 AM

Actually, I like the ability to have these dis-synergy (dysergy? antigy?) be a lesser benefit than a perfectly synergistic pairing. Much like the mountain dwarf and the fact that most classes which best benefit from their stat boosts already have their proficiencies, a sub-class like this can have more good things in the mix if any one build doesn't perfectly benefit from all of them. That seems like a design success, rather than something to avoid.

The term I like is “Skornergy”, from the Skorne of Warmachine/Hordes who are infamous for that. Plus, it sounds like an unpleasant version of “synergy”.

I'd like to point out that, since you are your own ally, you can use Voice of Authority as sort of a ghetto-version of the Eldritch Knight's Improved War Magic ability that only works with self-buffs..

Was thinking about this myself. One thing that comes to mind is that all the Paladin’s Smite spells are technically self-targeted, so you could cast Wrathful Smite or similar, take your reaction attack, and still have your action left. Not sure how useful this would be overall, but might be nice.

KorvinStarmast

2018-04-10, 11:23 AM

My wife was going to use a homebrewed 'law' cleric for a short high-level (we start at level 16 and go to 20) campaign. She's likely going to use this now and that should be very interesting.

There's a good chance we'll have a conquest paladin in the group as well, so I think we'll get a pretty good feel for class synergy. Please let us know how it goes. Sounds fun! :smallcool:

Joe the Rat

2018-04-10, 11:50 AM

In the stream, Mearls said he picked Order as the one to do because the other alignments didn't really have as much thematic and design space that wasn't covered already—Good runs up against Life and Light, Evil runs up against Death, and Chaos runs up against Trickery.

Not saying it's impossible to do, but that's the stated reason he at least started with Order.

Out of curiosity, what angle would you take for a Chaos-aligned domain that isn't Trickery?

Since this Order is very much "Law and Order" (Dun Dun!), Trickery is the natural counterpart.

First thing that comes to mind for other Chaos-flavor Domains are Destruction, Madness, Freedom, and Art.

Destruction can probably be captured by War...

Arkhios

2018-04-10, 11:55 AM

Since this Order is very much "Law and Order" (Dun Dun!), Trickery is the natural counterpart.

First thing that comes to mind for other Chaos-flavor Domains are Destruction, Madness, Freedom, and Art.

Destruction can probably be captured by War...

I'd say Tempest is Destruction. In fact, I think it's already implied as such, but can't say for sure as I'm AFB.

Joe the Rat

2018-04-10, 11:57 AM

I'd say Tempest is Destruction.

Much more breaking things than faces, true.

the_brazenburn

2018-04-10, 11:58 AM

Since this Order is very much "Law and Order" (Dun Dun!), Trickery is the natural counterpart.

First thing that comes to mind for other Chaos-flavor Domains are Destruction, Madness, Freedom, and Art.

Destruction can probably be captured by War...

We need a Madness Domain! All Chaotic people should revolt if we don't get one!

I'd be fine with combining that with a Pain domain, which is another thing I'm hopeful for.