Giving a fighter archetype to a barbarian

[Garfunion]

How broken do you think this would be if I were to allow a barbarian to take the Battle Master archetype?

I’m trying to re-create the 4th edition version of the druid.

[GlenSmash!]

I don't think it would break anything.

[Aett_Thorn]

Probably anything except Champion would likely be fine.

[CTurbo]

Do you mean completely replacing the specific features that the 3rd level Barb paths give you? If yes, then I'd say it's fine. if adding the Battle Master features to the existing Barb 3rd level path features, then no it would be too much.

[Garfunion]

Do you mean completely replacing the specific features that the 3rd level Barb paths give you? If yes, then I'd say it's fine. if adding the Battle Master features to the existing Barb 3rd level path features, then no it would be too much.
Replacing the path not adding it.

[GlenSmash!]

Probably anything except Champion would likely be fine.

Champion Barb would certainly have the most potential for increased damage, but would it be overpowered compared to Bear Totem or Zealot?

I don't know.

Apologies for thread hijacking.

[Naanomi]

Healing up to half HP as a champion would be pretty icky ‘sub-capstone’ for a barb... 50 more HP to boost on to begin with, and CON that also feeds higher AC...

[Kane0]

Sure, I don't see any glaring issues with it.

[Aett_Thorn]

Champion Barb would certainly have the most potential for increased damage, but would it be overpowered compared to Bear Totem or Zealot?

I don't know.

Apologies for thread hijacking.

At lower levels, it probably wouldn't be too bad. But by the time you get the 18-20 criticals, it might get pretty unbalanced.

[GlenSmash!]

At lower levels, it probably wouldn't be too bad. But by the time you get the 18-20 criticals, it might get pretty unbalanced.

Maybe. I'm admittedly a terribly number cruncher, but I do know at that level a Zealot is immune to death while raging /shrug.

[Samayu]

Battle Master feels to thinky for a raging barbarian. But go for it.

[Garfunion]

Battle Master feels to thinky for a raging barbarian. But go for it.

I’m just using the barbarian and battle master combo to help me re-create the 4e D&D Druid.

[Samayu]

Refluffing is fun.

[LudicSavant]

Battle Master feels to thinky for a raging barbarian. But go for it.

I always felt like this attitude did a disservice to barbarians and the compelling fictional heroes they are inspired by. Conan was a cunning rogue as much as a raging barbarian. Thorkell the Tall was a skilled tactician as well as an unstoppable physical force. And so on and so forth.

[DarkKnightJin]

I always felt like this attitude did a disservice to barbarians and the compelling fictional heroes they are inspired by. Conan was a cunning rogue as much as a raging barbarian. Thorkell the Tall was a skilled tactician as well as an unstoppable physical force. And so on and so forth.

I agree. Just because they are known for flying into a rage, and then limbs start flying as well, doesn't mean they can't be good thinkers or tacticians.
Sure, they're not gonna be Wizard levels of smart, but few people will be.

As long as they don't dump their Int hard, they're as smart as the average commoner or bandit.
Which means they're perfectly capable of thinking up a strategy.
And even of they DID dump Int.. you can fluff 'smart' tactical decisions as instinct. Wolves aren't super smart, but know that ganging up on some poor soul increases their odds of getting a meal.

[LudicSavant]

I agree. Just because they are known for flying into a rage, and then limbs start flying as well, doesn't mean they can't be good thinkers or tacticians.
Sure, they're not gonna be Wizard levels of smart, but few people will be.

As long as they don't dump their Int hard, they're as smart as the average commoner or bandit.
Which means they're perfectly capable of thinking up a strategy.
And even of they DID dump Int.. you can fluff 'smart' tactical decisions as instinct. Wolves aren't super smart, but know that ganging up on some poor soul increases their odds of getting a meal.

I would go even further and say that even if you dump your Int as hard as possible in 5e's point buy, you're... still basically as smart as an average human. Seriously. The difference between 8 and 10 Int is functionally almost nothing, yet in misguided forum memes receives vastly more attention than the difference between 10 and 12 (which, correctly, is treated as negligible).

[Angelalex242]

I think the best way to put it is, Int 8 still passes high school. They probably don't go to college, though. In today's world, int 10 goes to college.

[Vogie]

To be fair, disarming, pushing & tripping are all things that any martial should be able to attempt... it's just the game mechanics that are locking them into feats and class features.

Battlemaster maneuvers specifically could be applied to any class... Even WOTC knew it, which is why Martial Adept is available as a feat.

[Saggo]

To be fair, disarming, pushing & tripping are all things that any martial should be able to attempt... it's just the game mechanics that are locking them into feats and class features.

Battlemaster maneuvers specifically could be applied to any class... Even WOTC knew it, which is why Martial Adept is available as a feat.

Anyone can Shove to push or trip (PHB 195) with their Attack action or take a Disarm action (DMG 271).

[Theodoxus]

Aye, just Martial Adept (or BM) granting superiority dice, makes the chance of that happening... superior.

[Unoriginal]

I always felt like this attitude did a disservice to barbarians and the compelling fictional heroes they are inspired by. Conan was a cunning rogue as much as a raging barbarian. Thorkell the Tall was a skilled tactician as well as an unstoppable physical force. And so on and so forth.

In D&D term, Conan would be represented by a Fighter/Rogue.


To be fair, disarming, pushing & tripping are all things that any martial should be able to attempt... it's just the game mechanics that are locking them into feats and class features.

Battlemaster maneuvers specifically could be applied to any class... Even WOTC knew it, which is why Martial Adept is available as a feat.

As pointed out, literally everyone, from the cow in the field to the archangel, can do it.

[Vogie]

As pointed out, literally everyone, from the cow in the field to the archangel, can do it.

Thanks for repeating something already stated, but with added glib. That really adds to the discussion.

Especially when you're wrong - not *literally* everyone. Yes, one can use a special melee attack to do trip or shove in lieu of an attack, and there are optional rules for disarming in the DMG... but those are optional.

The martial tactics from the BM and Martial adept open it to absolutely everyone with the feat by changing the requirement to Weapon attacks rather than melee attacks, and locking in the ability to, say, disarm, regardless if the DM has opted to use the disarm optional ruleset. Disarm or trip a target with a longbow from 150 ft away, shove with a crossbow a la Vayne from League of Legends. Also, you don't have to give up the attack to do so.


Aye, just Martial Adept (or BM) granting superiority dice, makes the chance of that happening... superior.

This one gets it.

[Legendairy]

The only problem I could see with champion (sorry not OP), would be the crazy barbarian criticals happening on an 18.....thats like close to fireball damages every round, roughly, for no resource cost, and constant advantage....and you heal to half if capped.

[Garfunion]

I find it very interesting how my question has spawned different discussions.

[strangebloke]

The only problem I could see with champion (sorry not OP), would be the crazy barbarian criticals happening on an 18.....thats like close to fireball damages every round, roughly, for no resource cost, and constant advantage....and you heal to half if capped.

So high level, and so specialized in that one thing, and you can't control when it happens... I honestly don't see a problem with this.

No disagreement, though. It's powerful. 28% crit chance per attack with 3-4 extra d12s on a crit is just stupid. Fortunately, this is the same level where zealots are never dying, wizards are creating duplicates of themselves that break the action economy, moon druids are turning into elementals, and fighters are getting four attacks that deal ~30 damage a pop. High level play is intentionally ridiculous.

[Saggo]

Especially when you're wrong - not *literally* everyone. Yes, one can use a special melee attack to do trip or shove in lieu of an attack, and there are optional rules for disarming in the DMG... but those are optional.

In a hypothetical table where there are no optional rules, sure, not everyone can at most disarm.

Point is, the basic combat options of disarm, trip, and push are not locked into a feat or feature as you stated.

[CTurbo]

I agree about Champion being too good for a Barb. Man that would be my very next character if I could do that. I'd roll up a Half-Orc Greataxe Champion Barb so fast I can already picture his char sheet as I type this. Talk about the ultimate killing machine. Yeah I wouldn't allow that one. Battle Master, sure, but not Champion. it just synergizes TOO well with what a Barb does already.

[DarkKnightJin]

How about Samurai? Maybe Cavalier.

Samurai would give a bit of class to the class.
And Cavalier seems like it could mesh very well with what a Barb tends to do already.

Eldritch Knight or Arcane Archer don't really gel quite as well with the Barb chassis.

[Legendairy]

So high level, and so specialized in that one thing, and you can't control when it happens... I honestly don't see a problem with this.

No disagreement, though. It's powerful. 28% crit chance per attack with 3-4 extra d12s on a crit is just stupid. Fortunately, this is the same level where zealots are never dying, wizards are creating duplicates of themselves that break the action economy, moon druids are turning into elementals, and fighters are getting four attacks that deal ~30 damage a pop. High level play is intentionally ridiculous.

Well yeah but that is it, they are all doing crazy things within their class and could be (dunno if it should be) that it is balanced with the core class. Champion fighter with all those d12 and being half orc for ANOTHER d12 and not dying until they fail a con save (usually good for 3 successes) while dealing all that damage, could be more awkward on a high elf too with elven accuracy....again, that would be theory crafting a build and TOTALLY derailing the OP....

To the OP, I think battle-master on a Barbarian chassis would be perfectly fine.

Back to our discussion a bit Strangebloke, I don't think its crazy in the scope of end game play you are right, just seems more of a surprise. Most DM's are aware of some of the higher level shenanigans and ways to...lessen their impact at times, this one is something not in the rules say it may surprise most and again, no resource cost and it has the potential to happen fairly often. The other day I rolled 7 nat 20s in one game and two sessions before that on Roll20 it was like 11 nat 20's and an equal number of 18+ (not all for attacks) so it could be a bit startling for that to happen. Keep in mind the barb can also be GWM with PaM and having another attack and almost keeping up with the fighters normal round. But I do agree with you, its not broken but can be very powerful, and something not really used to (except maybe sorcadin, but they expend a resource)

[strangebloke]

Well yeah but that is it, they are all doing crazy things within their class and could be (dunno if it should be) that it is balanced with the core class. Champion fighter with all those d12 and being half orc for ANOTHER d12 and not dying until they fail a con save (usually good for 3 successes) while dealing all that damage, could be more awkward on a high elf too with elven accuracy....again, that would be theory crafting a build and TOTALLY derailing the OP....

To the OP, I think battle-master on a Barbarian chassis would be perfectly fine.

Back to our discussion a bit Strangebloke, I don't think its crazy in the scope of end game play you are right, just seems more of a surprise. Most DM's are aware of some of the higher level shenanigans and ways to...lessen their impact at times, this one is something not in the rules say it may surprise most and again, no resource cost and it has the potential to happen fairly often. The other day I rolled 7 nat 20s in one game and two sessions before that on Roll20 it was like 11 nat 20's and an equal number of 18+ (not all for attacks) so it could be a bit startling for that to happen. Keep in mind the barb can also be GWM with PaM and having another attack and almost keeping up with the fighters normal round. But I do agree with you, its not broken but can be very powerful, and something not really used to (except maybe sorcadin, but they expend a resource)

I think that 'dealing lots of damage' is one of the least disruptive things a player can do, from an optimization perspective, unless lots of other character had tried to optimize for damage and done a poor job of it.

[GlenSmash!]

I agree about Champion being too good for a Barb. Man that would be my very next character if I could do that. I'd roll up a Half-Orc Greataxe Champion Barb so fast I can already picture his char sheet as I type this. Talk about the ultimate killing machine. Yeah I wouldn't allow that one. Battle Master, sure, but not Champion. it just synergizes TOO well with what a Barb does already.

I still don't know if it's more than what a Zealot gets, or Wish for that matter.

[Nifft]

I find it very interesting how my question has spawned different discussions.

At least you got some valid answers before the discussion went off the rails.

(IMHO: yeah it's probably fine, also now I want to play an Eldritch Knightbarian.)

[Naanomi]

I think that 'dealing lots of damage' is one of the least disruptive things a player can do, from an optimization perspective, unless lots of other character had tried to optimize for damage and done a poor job of it.
To a point... nothing on 5e breaks the damage to unbearable levels; but 3e has Ubercharger and the like that just did (millions of points) of damage...

[Vogie]

How about Samurai? Maybe Cavalier.

Samurai would give a bit of class to the class.
And Cavalier seems like it could mesh very well with what a Barb tends to do already.

Eldritch Knight or Arcane Archer don't really gel quite as well with the Barb chassis.

Definitely Cavalier, albeit without the mounted portions.

Samurai would get too crazy IMHO - both the ability to use Fighting Spirit to get advantage, in lieu of Reckless attack early on, and then the ability to convert advantage through both into extra attacks would be... a lot of attacks with very little downside.

I do think the existence of an Strength-based archer would be interesting, a sort of nod to the Composite bows builds from 3.P (if not earlier editions). The 'Walking Ballista' type of archers, contrasting the spell-using rangers or fighter archers launching dozens of arrows a minute. Not the arcane archer specifically, though.

[Legendairy]

Also I don't think this has been addressed for the OP, I think that Barbarians get their subclass features at different levels and capstone earlier? I am AFB right now but I seem to recall them getting their big subclass stuff earlier.

[mr-mercer]

I can't remember the complete layout of either, but I know that barbarians get their last subclass feature at 14th level while fighters get theirs at 18th. Still probably workable though, and definitely an interesting concept to experiment with.