The Fabler: Bard/Medium Hybrid Class [WIP][PEACH]

[eternalink]

I run a home game that's very high-magic, but very low-powered (magic is extremely common, but is almost universally restricted to 5th-level or lower spells), and my current campaign is being played at very low-level. I have a player who wants to add Bard to their character, but is mainly interested in the Bardic Performance aspect, so I decided to brew up a class with Bard and Shaman and Medium, which the player also likes, but we don't feel the possession aspect is very compelling in our campaign world. I'd love some feedback on the class as it currently exists, both for interest and balance purposes.

Fabler
Fablers are collectors of folk tales, legends, and myths. Their obsession, combined with the believability of the stories to so many, imbues their retellings of the stories with real power.

Fablers are made to be support characters that aren’t obviously magical, or perhaps are magical, but in subtler ways than the typical caster.

Role: Fablers are flexible support characters, improving their allies with a small variety of buffs, but not at the cost of the fabler’s own abilities.
Alignment: Any.
Hit Die: d8.
Class Skills: As Medium
Skill Ranks per Level: 4 + Int modifier.

Table: Fabler


Lvl.
BAB
Fort
Ref
Will
Special
Tales


1
+0
+0
+0
+2
Storytime, Legend 1&2, Heroic Teachings
--


2
+1
+0
+0
+3

1


3
+2
+1
+1
+3

1


4
+3
+1
+1
+4

2


5
+3
+1
+1
+4
Legend 3
2


6
+4
+2
+2
+5

3


...
and so on, with a new Tale every even level and a new Legend every 4 levels until 17.

Storytime:
At 1st level, the Fabler gains the ability to sit down with her allies each evening and choose one of the Legends she knows to regale her allies with the tales of for 1 hour. She designates a number of allies up to 3 + her level, all of whom must be present, conscious, and willing. These allies become the foci of her teaching for the following day. She cannot choose a new Legend for 24 hours. At the end of Storytime, the Fabler finds among her things the Made Form of her chosen Legend and gains access to the Teachings of her chosen Legend.

Legends:
The Fabler learns many stories over the course of her career, but learns a few very compelling stories suitable for teaching to her companions. Each Legend has a Made Form, an object representing its power and legend made more tangible. Made Forms grant abilities, which can only be used while the Made Form is in hand or being worn. Each Legend also grants the Fabler one or more Heroic Teachings, buffs the Fabler can support the foci of her Storytime with. 24 hours after Storytime, the Fabler loses her current Made Form and all Heroic Teachings.When you take your first level in Fabler, select two Legends. Select another Legend each time you gain this feature (every 2 levels for the 10-level progression, every 4 levels for the 20-level progression). You cannot choose the same Legend more than once.

Tales:
Tales are smaller stories unrelated to the Fabler’s main legends that the Fabler learns over the course of their career. Whenever you gain a new Tale, select one from the list available to learn. Unless specified otherwise, you cannot take the same Tale more than once.

Heroic Teachings:
The Fabler can raise her allies’ spirits or provoke them to action by reminding them of aspects of the story she told to them last night. This ability functions as the Bardic Performance bard ability, except that the Fabler gains only access to only Inspire Courage (but see Legends for different types of performance the Fabler does have access to), and that the Fabler can only use Heroic Teachings on allies she chose as a focus of Storytime in the last 24 hours.

Legends:
Lich
Heroic Teachings:
Teaching of Mental Fortitude: New performance. You and each focus of your last Storytime each gain SR equal to 10+your level and +1 to effective caster level. Costs 1 round to activate and 2 rounds to maintain.
Teaching of Service: Once per day, you can expend 2 rounds of Heroic Teachings to use Command Undead, as the feat, without expending a use of Channel Energy. If you do not choose The Lich at your next Storytime, you lose control of any undead you were controlling before then.
Made Form:
The Lich's Tome: When you first choose The Lich as a Legend, choose (some number) spells from the Wizard/Sorcerer list. Whenever you select The Lich at Storytime, when you finish telling the story of The Hero, you find a spellbook containing those spells among your things. You can cast the spells from this spellbook once each, as if it were a scroll, except that you do not need to make any Spellcraft or Use Magic Device check. Whenever you gain a new Legend known, choose another spell of each level for which you have a slot (as per bard spell progression).


Hero
Heroic Teachings:
Teaching of Courage: Whenever you use Inspire Courage, you also grant your Inspire Courage bonus on AC and saves.
Teaching of Scouting: New performance. You and each focus of your last Storytime who can hear or see you gain a +10 ft enhancement bonus to base speed, a +4 enhancement bonus on Stealth checks, and a +4 enhancement bonus on Perception checks.
Made Form:
The Hero’s Arms: When you first choose The Hero as a Legend, choose one martial or exotic weapon. Whenever you select The Hero at Storytime, when you finish telling the story of The Hero, you find that weapon among your things. You are treated as proficient with that weapon for as long as your current Legend is The Hero. In 24 hours, the weapon is lost among your things until you select The Hero as your Legend at Storytime again. Whenever you gain a new Legend known, you can choose a +1 weapon enhancement for the chosen weapon to gain. If you do not choose a weapon enhancement, the weapon gains a +1 enhancement bonus, and you can choose to add a +2 weapon enhancement bonus to the weapon next time you gain a Legend. While you have this weapon, you can still enhance it as normal, but the normal rules apply, and the enhancements placed on the weapon by this ability can never be removed. You may take feats which require you to be proficient in this weapon (such as Weapon Focus), but only gain the effects of them when you are actually proficient (either because The Hero is your current Legend or because another effect grants you proficiency in this weapon type).


Trickster
Heroic Teachings:
Teaching of Adaptation: New performance. You or a willing ally within 50 feet of you who was a focus of your last Storytime can take the form of a Small or Medium animal as Beast Shape I. You can maintain this performance on multiple targets simultaneously, but can only activate the performance on one target per round, and this uses one round of Heroic Teachings per target per round. At 9th level, you can use this ability as Beast Shape II, but it uses 2 rounds of Heroic Teachings per target per round. At 17th level, you can use this ability as Beast Shape III for 3 rounds per target per round, except that you cannot take the form of a magical beast this way.
Teaching of Opportunity: New performance. You can draw the attention of those who are not already hostile to you and make them more susceptible to suggestions. All intelligent creatures within 50 feet of you except those who participated in your last Storytime must make a Will save or become distracted by you. You take a -8 penalty on Sleight of Hand and Bluff checks during this performance and after you end it until the crowd moves on. All targets who do not make the save take a -8 penalty to Perception and Sense Motive checks against targets other than you and take a -4 penalty to Will saves during this performance.
Made Form:
The Trickster's Mask: Whenever you select The Trickster at Storytime, when you finish telling the story of The Trickster, you find a mask of a solid, light material among your things. When you wear this mask, you gain the following abilities:
Visage of Courage: As a swift action, choose one ally you can see who was the focus of your last Storytime. That ally gains a +4 morale bonus on attack rolls and is immune to fear effects for 1 round. This bonus stacks with the bonus granted by Inspire Courage, despite sharing a type.
Visage of Cowardice: As a swift action, choose one enemy you can see who is within 50 feet of you. That enemy takes a -4 morale penalty on attack rolls and saves against fear effects for 1 round.


Tales:
Socratic Method: Once per day, you can activate this ability as a swift action to gain 4 temporary rounds of Legend Inspiration. These rounds last for 1 minute or until expended, and are used before your normal rounds of Legend Inspiration.

The Voice of the Ages: Once per week, you can use legend lore, as the spell.

Cameo: Once per day, you can activate this ability as a swift action to gain all the effects of one other Legend you know for one round per level. For that time, treat yourself as if you had also selected that other legend last Storytime.

Unmaker: Once per day, you can dispel magic as with a targeted dispel magic, with a caster level equal to your Fabler level, or you can channel entropy as a cleric of your Fabler level.


There's no capstone right now, and I feel there should be another ability to gain on odd levels between Legends, but I want to make sure I'm not starting out totally wrong or giving the class too much power to have another feature. This is my first class I've built pretty much from the ground up, and I'm looking for advice from more experienced homebrewers.
There will ultimately want to be many more Legends and Tales, but I'd like to hone in on what kind of power each should have before trying to create a whole lot of them.
My first post on the forums after lurking for years, but please, give the harshest feedback you feel is necessary. I want the class to be fun to play, and balanced for "standard" non-optimized play.

Thanks in advance for any feedback!

[ChaoticHarmony]

I run a home game that's very high-magic, but very low-powered (magic is extremely common, but is almost universally restricted to 5th-level or lower spells), and my current campaign is being played at very low-level. I have a player who wants to add Bard to their character, but is mainly interested in the Bardic Performance aspect, so I decided to brew up a class with Bard and Shaman and Medium, which the player also likes, but we don't feel the possession aspect is very compelling in our campaign world. I'd love some feedback on the class as it currently exists, both for interest and balance purposes.

Fabler
Fablers are collectors of folk tales, legends, and myths. Their obsession, combined with the believability of the stories to so many, imbues their retellings of the stories with real power.

Fablers are made to be support characters that aren’t obviously magical, or perhaps are magical, but in subtler ways than the typical caster.

Role: Fablers are flexible support characters, improving their allies with a small variety of buffs, but not at the cost of the fabler’s own abilities.
Alignment: Any.
Hit Die: d8.
Class Skills: As Medium
Skill Ranks per Level: 4 + Int modifier.

Table: Fabler


Lvl.
BAB
Fort
Ref
Will
Special
Tales


1
+0
+0
+0
+2
Storytime, Legend 1&2, Legend Inspiration
--


2
+1
+0
+0
+3

1


3
+2
+1
+1
+3

1


4
+3
+1
+1
+4

2


5
+3
+1
+1
+4
Legend 3
2


6
+4
+2
+2
+5

3


...
and so on, with a new Tale every even level and a new Legend every 4 levels until 17.

Storytime:
Every evening, the Fabler selects one of her Legends to regale her allies with. She designates a number of allies up to 3 + her Charisma modifier, all of whom must be present, conscious, and willing, to be the foci of her teaching. Her choice of Legend and choice of foci remain in place for the next 24 hours.

Legends:
The Fabler learns many stories over the course of her career, but learns a few very compelling stories suitable for teaching to her companions. Each Legend grants the Fabler one or more types of Legend Inspiration and one or more Legend Realizations. Each evening, when the Fabler selects a Legend as part of their Storytime ability, they gain the ability to use that Legend’s type of Legend Inspiration for the next 24 hours, and also gain access to that legend’s Legend Realizations. When you take your first level in Fabler, select two Legends. Select another Legend each time you gain this feature (every 2 levels for the 10-level progression, every 4 levels for the 20-level progression).

Tales:
Tales are smaller stories unrelated to the Fabler’s main legends that the Fabler learns over the course of their career. Whenever you gain a new Tale, select one from the list available to learn. Unless specified otherwise, you cannot take the same Tale more than once.

Legend Inspiration:
The Fabler can raise her allies’ spirits or provoke them to action by reminding them of aspects of the story told to them last night. This ability functions as the Bardic Performance bard ability, using Perform: Oratory or Perform:Sing ,except that the Fabler gains only Inspire Courage (but see Legends for different types of performance the Fabler does have access to), and that the Fabler can only use Legend Inspiration on allies she chose as a focus of Storytime in the last 24 hours.

Legends:
Lich
Legend Inspiration:
Magical Bulwark: New performance. You and each focus of your last Storytime each gain SR equal to 10+your level and +1 to effective caster level. Costs 1 round to activate and 2 rounds to maintain.
Legend Realization:
Shadow of the Mage: When you first choose The Lich as a Legend, choose one spell of each level from the psychic spell list. Choose one additional spell of the Vigor school. Whenever you select The Lich at Storytime, when you finish telling the story of The Lich, you feel a power awakened in your veins. You gain temporary spellcasting ability in the form of spell slots equal to those of a bard of your level, which you can use to spontaneously cast any spell you chose when you gained The Lich. In 24 hours, any unexpended power fades, and you lose all spellcasting ability gained through this ability. Whenever you gain a new Legend known, choose another spell of each level for which you have a slot (as per bard spell progression).

Hero
Legend Inspiration:
Glorious Aura: Whenever you use Inspire Courage, you also grant a +1 morale bonus on AC and saves.
Legend Realization:
The Hero’s Arms: When you first choose The Hero as a Legend, choose one martial or exotic weapon. Whenever you select The Hero at Storytime, when you finish telling the story of The Hero, you find that weapon among your things. You are treated as proficient with that weapon for as long as your current Legend is The Hero. In 24 hours, the weapon is lost among your things until you select The Hero as your Legend at Storytime again. Whenever you gain a new Legend known, you can choose a +1 weapon enhancement for the chosen weapon to gain. If you do not choose a weapon enhancement, the weapon gains a +1 enhancement bonus, and you can choose to add a +2 weapon enhancement bonus to the weapon next time you gain a Legend. While you have this weapon, you can still enhance it as normal, but the normal rules apply, and the enhancements placed on the weapon by this ability can never be removed.

Tales:
Socratic Method: Once per day, you can activate this ability as a swift action to gain 4 temporary rounds of Legend Inspiration. These rounds last for 1 minute or until expended, and are used before your normal rounds of Legend Inspiration.

The Voice of the Ages: Once per week, you can use legend lore, as the spell.

Cameo: Once per day, you can activate this ability as a swift action to gain all the effects of one other Legend you know for one round per level. For that time, treat yourself as if you had also selected that other legend last Storytime.

Unmaker: Once per day, you can dispel magic as with a targeted dispel magic, with a caster level equal to your Fabler level, or you can channel entropy as a cleric of your Fabler level.


There's no capstone right now, and I feel there should be another ability to gain on odd levels between Legends, but I want to make sure I'm not starting out totally wrong or giving the class too much power to have another feature. This is my first class I've built pretty much from the ground up, and I'm looking for advice from more experienced homebrewers.
There will ultimately want to be many more Legends and Tales, but I'd like to hone in on what kind of power each should have before trying to create a whole lot of them.
My first post on the forums after lurking for years, but please, give the harshest feedback you feel is necessary. I want the class to be fun to play, and balanced for "standard" non-optimized play.

Thanks in advance for any feedback!

I don't have a whole lot of experience homebrewing myself, but I would still like to give my opinion on this class.

From my understanding of the Fabler, it is an attempt to Hybrid the Bard and Medium classes, taking the Bardic performance aspect from the Bard and combining it with the Seance aspect of the Medium. I really like the concept of that but I feel that it wasn't combined really well in Story time and Legend Inspiration. A Bard's Bardic Performance gives various effects that remain active while the Bard is keeping up the performance while a Medium's Shared Seance gives an effect to allies that participate in the Seance, for 24 hours. What a Fabler is requiring is allies to participate in his Storytime, where he gives himself a boon the next day, then spends Inspiration rounds so that his allies can gain a bonus while he performs. This to me seems as though the Story is more for himself than for his allies, which kind of breaks the point of a storyteller based class IMHO. His Tales reinforce this feeling, because they are abilities he gives himself.

My suggestion would be to have Story time be similar to Shared Seance, in that it gives yourself and participating allies a story appropriate bonus for 24 hours. You then spend Inspiration rounds to give yourself a stronger, additional story appropriate bonus while performing. I would replace Tales, with Plot Twists, story points that allow you to add/change the effects of your Legends, at the cost of either time(for Story time legends) or rounds of Inspiration.

I hope I was helpful in any way, hopefully someone with more experience can help more.

[eternalink]

What a Fabler is requiring is allies to participate in his Storytime, where he gives himself a boon the next day, then spends Inspiration rounds so that his allies can gain a bonus while he performs. This to me seems as though the Story is more for himself than for his allies, which kind of breaks the point of a storyteller based class IMHO. His Tales reinforce this feeling, because they are abilities he gives himself.
This is an interesting perspective, because the intended idea was for the Fabler to be sort of a teacher (teaching based on stories/myths/legends), telling a story to her allies so that she can later remind them of a lesson in the story in order to provide them a buff. Do you have any idea how I could push the idea of teaching further, short of an always-on Shared Seance sort of ability? You suggest:

have Story time be similar to Shared Seance, in that it gives yourself and participating allies a story appropriate bonus for 24 hours.
but I was trying to move away from this Shared Seance, since it's pretty much a very small bonus (+1 to a single stat, typically) that your allies need to write down at the beginning of the day and never think about again unless they're scrounging around on their sheet for one more point of CMD or damage or something. Bardic Performance seems a lot more active and interesting, given that it's a limited resource one player has to use up to actively provide a buff to allies. Is there a middle ground, or a third option here? You're right that the class seems overall self-centered, but I'm not really happy with how passive Shared Seance buffs are.

Thanks for your feedback!

[ChaoticHarmony]

Interesting! I like that thought cause I am a firm believer that stories, new and old, have something to teach people.

I have an idea that takes Story time in a different direction, let me know what you think.

Storytime:
Once per day, a Fabler can select a Legend to tell friend and foe alike. The Fabler gains a bonus number of rounds of Inspiration times the number of active Listeners. The Legend told determines what effects his Inspiring Tale has while in use. The Fabler can choose to give all listeners a +3 bonus to all Knowledge checks as listed in the Legend, for 24 hours.

Inspiring Tale
A Fabler can, as a standard action, begin reciting an inspiring short story based off of the last Legend he selected with his Story time ability.Allies within 50 feet gain the Legend's Story bonus. All creatures within 50 feet that can hear him may make an appropriate Knowledge roll(based on the selected Legend) at a DC 10+the Fabler's Perform: Oratory or Perform: Sing skill. Those that succeed gain the Legend's Moral bonus for the duration of the story.

Plot Twists
At level 3(or whatever level you think appropriate) a Fabler learns to add unexpected twists to the Morals of his Inspiring Tales. The Fabler learns 3 Plot twists from the list below. When beginning a Inspiring Tale, a Fabler can select one of his known Plot Twists to add into the story by raising the DC of the Moral bonus by 5. Every 2 levels after three, the Fabler learns a new Plot Twist. At level 13, the Fabler can add 2 Plot Twists to his Inspiring Tale.

Even making it just Allies who get the roll is a good thematic effect. With this, they get something from hearing the Legend, which can help them get the Moral bonus, which would be a more powerful/desirable effect than just the standard Story effect. It would almost certainly inspire other characters to invest a few skill points in Knowledge, which is what any teacher of any kind would hope for. At the same time, it balances out because the Fabler doesn't directly benefit from his stories.(btw, that could be your capstone, the Fabler gains the benefits of his Legend's Story and Moral, without having to roll.)

[eternalink]

Inspiring Tale
A Fabler can, as a standard action, begin reciting an inspiring short story based off of the last Legend he selected with his Story time ability.Allies within 50 feet gain the Legend's Story bonus. All creatures within 50 feet that can hear him may make an appropriate Knowledge roll(based on the selected Legend) at a DC 10+the Fabler's Perform: Oratory or Perform: Sing skill. Those that succeed gain the Legend's Moral bonus for the duration of the story.
So, would you remove Inspire Courage entirely, and have the Fabler only have access to the performances granted by the current day's Legend? I sort of like the idea of having allies make a check to see if they learned (though I'm not sure about being unable to buff a party that fails a check). Under this idea, it looks like there would be one bonus (Story) that all allies get as part of the performance, and another (presumably smaller) bonus that both enemies and allies can get if they make the appropriate check?



Plot Twists
At level 3(or whatever level you think appropriate) a Fabler learns to add unexpected twists to the Morals of his Inspiring Tales. The Fabler learns 3 Plot twists from the list below. When beginning a Inspiring Tale, a Fabler can select one of his known Plot Twists to add into the story by raising the DC of the Moral bonus by 5. Every 2 levels after three, the Fabler learns a new Plot Twist. At level 13, the Fabler can add 2 Plot Twists to his Inspiring Tale.
This is cool, and I definitely want to find a way to add it somehow. I'm just really unsure about gating a whole class feature behind a skill check that, especially one that each ally that wants to benefit from has to make. Even vanilla bards only have skill checks involved in two performances (Countersong and Distraction).

Do you think that the benefits the Storyteller derives from Legends (currently called Legend Realizations) are strong enough to be better than the similar features the Medium has, and are powerful enough to mean that the Storyteller isn't necessarily forced into a pure support role? I'd like for the Storyteller to be a sort of flex role character (like the Medium), but always a support regardless of what other role they're in.

What do you think of the following idea for a new ability to fill out some dead levels?

I Tell You The Truth
The Fabler collects stories, but her obsession also drives her to collect artifacts related to her favorite stories. At level 3, and then again at levels 7, 11, & 15, you find an object related to the story, which you can use as an object lesson to convince allies who participate in your Storytime of the truth of the lesson you've just taught.

Mask:
Each ally who participated in your Storytime gains the ability once in the next 24 hours to select courage or cowardice as a swift action. If they select courage, they gain a +4 morale bonus on their next attack roll made within 1 minute. If they select cowardice, they choose one enemy they can see to take a -8 penalty on their next attack roll.

Tome:
Each ally who participated in your Storytime gains the ability once in the next 24 hours to select one feat they qualify for as a swift action. They are treated as if they had that feat for 1 round.

Lamp:
Each ally who participated in your Storytime gains the ability once in the next 24 hours to activate the Lamp ability as a standard action. They gain a +4 bonus on Perception checks for 1 minute, and gain a +4 bonus on the next Initiative check they make within 1 minute.

Not sure about these specific Artifacts (esp. the Tome), but wanted to get the idea out there. Basically, you can grant participants in your Storytime abilities that they use on their own terms at some point in the day. Likely there would want to be a limitation on how many Artifact abilities you could hand out, but on the other hand, this progression only ever gives out 4. Thoughts?

[ChaoticHarmony]

Seeing what I wrote again and your comments on it, I don't think enemies should be included in the roll. My original thought was a true teacher wants to inspire all students, even the 'bad apples'. But who would want to risk accidentally buffing your enemies?(unless it was in some sort of Gambler Class, then that's part of the appeal)

The rolled buff, in my mind, would have been the greater effect to 'reward students' who paid attention to the Story.

As for the Inspire Courage, I think that depends on exactly what you are looking for. From what I can tell, a true Hybrid class does one of three things at earlier levels. 1st, It gives access to the Iconic abilities of the parent classes(e.g. a Brawler at Lvl 2 gets a fighter's bonus feats and a monk's Flurry of Blows). 2nd, it refluffs a parent ability to better fit with the intended theme, while simultaneously giving new options for said ability(e.g. a Shaman's Spirit and Spirit Animal are refluffed versions of a Witch's Patron and Familiar, giving new and different options to choose from) 3rd, it creates a new ability that grants access to similar or the same abilities as the parents(e.g. an Arcanist's Arcane Reservoir). The abilities both of us listed don't really fit into any of these categories as they currently are written IMHO.

Now another option could be to do a class that seems to be a Hybrid, but is actually its own thing (like a Magus, which seems like it would be a hybrid of Fighter and Wizard, or an Inquisitor, which could easily be perceived as a Paladin/Ranger cross fluffier)

For the Legend Realizations, I understand what you are aiming for, but they could use a little work.
From the Lich; it seems to be saying that a Fabler DOESNT normally have spells(which if it is a true Hybrid class, why wouldn't it since both parents are spellcasters?) And that it gives a spell slot at each level the Fabler would be able to cast(if he could cast spells) that can only be used for two spells per level, which are selected, AND CANT EVER BE CHANGED, from a non-parent class and a specific school. It also does not designated what the spell stat is (I'm guessing CHA?)

From the Hero; it is a specific weapon, that you can only use sometimes. You are proficient with it only while you use it, and at later levels, you can enchant it with unknown traits. Also, it can still be enchanted normally while you do have it(does it keep any enchantment it gains from outside its own effect?)

Overall, I like the Hero better than the Lich, because it is less complicated and fluffy as heck(now where did I put that legendary sword? 😂) but to have them would make the Fabler crazy MAD. I suggest that you replace these with Props that he gains when he tells the Legend, that give him stat boosts and/or abilities for the day.

Lastly, for I Tell You the Truth, I like the concept, but I don't think it should be a separate ability. I would use it instead of Legend Realizations, and have one or two 'Props' that give an effect only to the Fabler, based on the Legend(like for the Hero, give him a sword that in anyone else's hands is a cheap wooden toy, but in the Fabler's hands a shining steel blade that can Smite Evil once per day)

Overall, My suggestion would be to have this class be inspired by the Bard and Medium, but be its own thing. I think you should try to have it focus on either martial or magic as a secondary to its support. I think Inspiring Tale(as I like to call it) should have a smaller, hits all effect, and a bigger roll to gain effect, for all nearby allies. And I think that this is going to be a fun class to play when it is completed. All this is MHO, and I thank you for allowing me to share it ☺

[eternalink]

You've given me a lot of awesome ideas, which I haven't had time to develop on just yet (finals panic), but I want to keep you up to date with what I'm thinking about (and express my thanks for so much awesome feedback!)


The rolled buff, in my mind, would have been the greater effect to 'reward students' who paid attention to the Story.
I think I get what you're going for, and I like it, but I don't want to punish the party for somebody screwing up a roll. I'm thinking that what I'll probably do is give one buff for hearing the performance, and also an additional buff for making the check. Should it be a Knowledge check (to represent drawing conclusions from past knowledge) or a Sense Motive check (to represent understanding what the Fabler is trying to get across, similar to using Sense Motive for understanding a hidden message)?


Now another option could be to do a class that seems to be a Hybrid, but is actually its own thing (like a Magus, which seems like it would be a hybrid of Fighter and Wizard, or an Inquisitor, which could easily be perceived as a Paladin/Ranger cross fluffier)
This is sort of what I'm trying to do. I do want to give Bardic Performance (or at least a very similar mass-party buff effect), but I'm not quite going for a true Hybrid (although Legends are very similar to Spirits, they are used quite differently, since there's such a limited number of them available).


For the Legend Realizations, I understand what you are aiming for, but they could use a little work.
From the Lich; it seems to be saying that a Fabler DOESNT normally have spells(which if it is a true Hybrid class, why wouldn't it since both parents are spellcasters?) And that it gives a spell slot at each level the Fabler would be able to cast(if he could cast spells) that can only be used for two spells per level, which are selected, AND CANT EVER BE CHANGED, from a non-parent class and a specific school. It also does not designated what the spell stat is (I'm guessing CHA?)
The Lich is very very directly based on the Archmage spirit available to the Medium, and similarly grants spellcasting to a non-spellcasting class. Technically, the Medium has spells, but barely, especially at the low levels my group plays at (often <5). Regardless, I would like to make sure the class is reasonably balanced at all levels, without making it a "real" spellcasting


From the Hero; it is a specific weapon, that you can only use sometimes. You are proficient with it only while you use it, and at later levels, you can enchant it with unknown traits. Also, it can still be enchanted normally while you do have it(does it keep any enchantment it gains from outside its own effect?)
Perhaps I need help with wording this part. The intended idea is that the weapon has two advancement tracks: It gets "free" advancment, but can still be enchanted normally. Consider the following example:

You choose The Hero at 1st level and choose a Hooked Axe. The weapon starts at +1 (since you also select one other Legend at 1st level), and you can choose to have that +1 become an enchantment or stay as an enhancement bonus. You decide to keep it as a +1.
You do some adventuring and accrue some money, and decide you want to enchant your weapon. You take it in to a blacksmith/wizard to get it enchanted with the flamingquality. The cost is 6000 GP (cost of a +2 weapon minus cost of a +1 weapon), and you walk away with a +1 flaming hooked axe. At 5th level, you gain a new Legend, so you get another +1. This time, you choose to trade in the now +2 enhancement bonus from legend for a +2 property, glorious. From now on, your Legend weapon is a flaming glorious hooked axe. The gloriousproperty is locked, since it was gained through the Legend feature, but you can have the flamingproperty changed later. Regardless, whenever you find the weapon again, it is exactly as it was before (minus any damage sustained), including all the properties you had added to it normally.
I acknowledge that this ability is probably fairly confusing, so rewording help would be neat, but that's how it's supposed to work.


Overall, I like the Hero better than the Lich, because it is less complicated and fluffy as heck(now where did I put that legendary sword? 😂) but to have them would make the Fabler crazy MAD. I suggest that you replace these with Props that he gains when he tells the Legend, that give him stat boosts and/or abilities for the day.
I'm glad you like the fluff of The Hero! I hadn't thought about how MAD the class would be. I took the idea of having swappable party roles from the Medium (Archmage and Champion play very differently), but I think you may be right. I'm not crazy about the idea of giving out free stat-boosting items as a class feature, but maybe they could come with a penalty too? (e.g. The Hero's Arms give you +2 Strength, but -2 Wisdom) IDK, do you feel like it would be okay to give out free stat-boosters if only the Fabler can use them?


Lastly, for I Tell You the Truth, I like the concept, but I don't think it should be a separate ability. I would use it instead of Legend Realizations, and have one or two 'Props' that give an effect only to the Fabler, based on the Legend(like for the Hero, give him a sword that in anyone else's hands is a cheap wooden toy, but in the Fabler's hands a shining steel blade that can Smite Evil once per day)
I love this idea! I'll definitely work it into the next writeup! I'm still worried the class is low on features, though! It feels like there's a lot of "dead levels" in the progression right now. I'm a strong believer that players should have an interesting advancement decision to make at every level, and there's a few places in the current class where that doesn't happen. As soon as I have the next version ready, I'll post it for your consideration!

[ChaoticHarmony]

I got to say, I'm loving the back and forth we are having with this, this is definitely the most fun I've had in regards to homebrewing. Time for my retort! (Lol)


I think I get what you're going for, and I like it, but I don't want to punish the party for somebody screwing up a roll. I'm thinking that what I'll probably do is give one buff for hearing the performance, and also an additional buff for making the check. Should it be a Knowledge check (to represent drawing conclusions from past knowledge) or a Sense Motive check (to represent understanding what the Fabler is trying to get across, similar to using Sense Motive for understanding a hidden message)? I would say Sense Motive would be more accurate, but the appropriate Knowledge check would be more thematic.


The Lich is very very directly based on the Archmage spirit available to the Medium, and similarly grants spellcasting to a non-spellcasting class. Technically, the Medium has spells, but barely, especially at the low levels my group plays at (often <5). Regardless, I would like to make sure the class is reasonably balanced at all levels, without making it a "real" spellcasting I totally get that, my suggestion would be to instead give spell-like abilities when using this Legend, which a Fabler can select upon choosing this Legend. He can only choose a spell/s from the Mesmerist List, whose level/s are less than or equal to half the Fabler's class level(rounded down or up)


Perhaps I need help with wording this part. The intended idea is that the weapon has two advancement tracks: It gets "free" advancment, but can still be enchanted normally. Consider the following example:
You choose The Hero at 1st level and choose a Hooked Axe. The weapon starts at +1 (since you also select one other Legend at 1st level), and you can choose to have that +1 become an enchantment or stay as an enhancement bonus. You decide to keep it as a +1.
You do some adventuring and accrue some money, and decide you want to enchant your weapon. You take it in to a blacksmith/wizard to get it enchanted with the flamingquality. The cost is 6000 GP (cost of a +2 weapon minus cost of a +1 weapon), and you walk away with a +1 flaming hooked axe. At 5th level, you gain a new Legend, so you get another +1. This time, you choose to trade in the now +2 enhancement bonus from legend for a +2 property, glorious. From now on, your Legend weapon is a flaming glorious hooked axe. The gloriousproperty is locked, since it was gained through the Legend feature, but you can have the flamingproperty changed later. Regardless, whenever you find the weapon again, it is exactly as it was before (minus any damage sustained), including all the properties you had added to it normally.
I acknowledge that this ability is probably fairly confusing, so rewording help would be neat, but that's how it's supposed to work.
Ok, that clears that up a bit. WOW that is a strong ability. Typically(to my knowledge), specialized weaponry that you only get through a class ability can either be enchanted through its own effect OR in general, but not both. If you go with an effect like this for any Legend, consider treating it like the Paladin's Divine Bond(weapon).


I'm glad you like the fluff of The Hero! I hadn't thought about how MAD the class would be. I took the idea of having swappable party roles from the Medium (Archmage and Champion play very differently), but I think you may be right. I'm not crazy about the idea of giving out free stat-boosting items as a class feature, but maybe they could come with a penalty too? (e.g. The Hero's Arms give you +2 Strength, but -2 Wisdom) IDK, do you feel like it would be okay to give out free stat-boosters if only the Fabler can use them?
How about you make the Props not only a Fabler's greatest strength, but they're greatest weakness as well. Mediums can't summon certain spirits unless they are in a certain type of area(Archmages at schools, Champions on battlefields, etc) why not make it so that a Fabler can't use a Legend's powers, unless he has the corresponding Prop(a wooden sword for the Hero, a scary mask for the Lich, etc). In order to use the Prop's power, he would have to be using it, thus putting it immediate danger of the Fabler losing it(by disarm or sunder). Having this major weakness can also allow you to have more powerful effects for your Props, in order to offset it.(this Lich mask could be easily broken if I were to get hit in the head, but it gives me +5 to Intimidate and lets me use Oneiric Horror 3 times per day if I wear it)


I love this idea! I'll definitely work it into the next writeup! I'm still worried the class is low on features, though! It feels like there's a lot of "dead levels" in the progression right now. I'm a strong believer that players should have an interesting advancement decision to make at every level, and there's a few places in the current class where that doesn't happen. As soon as I have the next version ready, I'll post it for your consideration!

Well let's see...at level 1 you have Story time(your seance replacement) and Inspiring Tale(your Bardic Performance replacement). Story time includes picking your daily Legend, of which you have two known at Lvl 1 and gain a new one every 4 levels after(5, 9, 13, 17). At level 2, I suggest introducing Plot Twists, effects that alter your Inspiring Tale, learning a new one on every even level, and increasing the number you can use every 6 levels after(2 at 8,3 at 14,4 at 20). That leaves levels 3, 7, 11, and 15 where absolutely nothing is gained. Two of those should be stat increases, and the other two, maybe common abilities or feats?

Whatever the case, I look forward to the next installment! Good luck on your finals 😁

[eternalink]

I must have been finishing up my edit as you posted this! The edit is up now (I just modified the top post), but I made it with no knowledge of your most recent reply, so let's see if I got anything right! :tongue:
Overall, I changed at least wording on everything except for Tales. No big dramatic changes, except that I added a new Legend, an additional performance for each Legend, and I made all of the main abilities (previously Legend Realizations) tied into physical items (so they can be lost, sundered, taken away by guards, etc, but can always be found again at the next Storytime).
I have no idea how many spells should be in the Lich's spellbook. You're right that it would be very few the previous way, so I took out any reference to how many it is until I come up with something. Any ideas? I realized the Archmage derives its power from the fact that you can choose new spells each Seance, and the Lich doesn't have that ability, so they should clearly get more, but how many?

I would say Sense Motive would be more accurate, but the appropriate Knowledge check would be more thematic.
I'm still really stuck on the idea of requiring party members to make a skill check in order to benefit from even a part of their support's buff. Look over the rework I put up and tell me what you think.


I totally get that, my suggestion would be to instead give spell-like abilities when using this Legend, which a Fabler can select upon choosing this Legend. He can only choose a spell/s from the Mesmerist List, whose level/s are less than or equal to half the Fabler's class level(rounded down or up)
This is also a good idea, but what do you think of the scroll approach I put in this edit? (I went with Wizard list this time to push the lich archetype)



Ok, that clears that up a bit. WOW that is a strong ability. Typically(to my knowledge), specialized weaponry that you only get through a class ability can either be enchanted through its own effect OR in general, but not both. If you go with an effect like this for any Legend, consider treating it like the Paladin's Divine Bond(weapon).
I have little experience with this sort of ability, I based the scaling on the Magus's weapon enhancement ability (arcane something or other), it could be way off mark. I will check out Divine Bond.


How about you make the Props not only a Fabler's greatest strength, but they're greatest weakness as well. Mediums can't summon certain spirits unless they are in a certain type of area(Archmages at schools, Champions on battlefields, etc) why not make it so that a Fabler can't use a Legend's powers, unless he has the corresponding Prop(a wooden sword for the Hero, a scary mask for the Lich, etc). In order to use the Prop's power, he would have to be using it, thus putting it immediate danger of the Fabler losing it(by disarm or sunder). Having this major weakness can also allow you to have more powerful effects for your Props, in order to offset it.(this Lich mask could be easily broken if I were to get hit in the head, but it gives me +5 to Intimidate and lets me use Oneiric Horror 3 times per day if I wear it)
Aha! I anticipated this one! See the new Made Form feature. Made Form abilities require the object, while Heroic Teachings can be used regardless. I did not add stat-boosts to it, but if it still seems to need it, adding that in could be an option.


Well let's see...at level 1 you have Story time(your seance replacement) and Inspiring Tale(your Bardic Performance replacement). Story time includes picking your daily Legend, of which you have two known at Lvl 1 and gain a new one every 4 levels after(5, 9, 13, 17). At level 2, I suggest introducing Plot Twists, effects that alter your Inspiring Tale, learning a new one on every even level, and increasing the number you can use every 6 levels after(2 at 8,3 at 14,4 at 20). That leaves levels 3, 7, 11, and 15 where absolutely nothing is gained. Two of those should be stat increases, and the other two, maybe common abilities or feats?
This part I did not get to this time around, but I agree. The Plot Twists could still be tied in in some way, and further Made Form abilities and Heroic Teachings could be locked behind levels, or maybe better yet, at certain levels, you could gain one new Teaching or Made Form ability for each Legend known. This I'm still working out the details of, but it won't be long coming!


Good luck on your finals 😁
Thank you! I need it! This stuff keeps me sane during the craziness of finals week(s)!

Thanks for all the help and sticking with me as we bounce ideas back and forth! When we get done here, you'll have built this class as much as I did! :wink:

[ChaoticHarmony]

Alright, things are looking good! Let's dive back in 😁


Storytime:
At 1st level, the Fabler gains the ability to sit down with her allies each evening and choose one of the Legends she knows to regale her allies with the tales of for 1 hour. She designates a number of allies up to 3 + her level, all of whom must be present, conscious, and willing. These allies become the foci of her teaching for the following day. She cannot choose a new Legend for 24 hours. At the end of Storytime, the Fabler finds among her things the Made Form of her chosen Legend and gains access to the Teachings of her chosen Legend.

Sticking with your guns on this, I can highly respect that. In saying that, it IS an hour of potential prep time they are giving up just so you can be effective. I think you should add in an additional benefit for the foci to gain from listening to the Legend other than being able to be affected by the Fabler's Heroic Teachings, like maybe reducing the amount of sleep they need that night by an hour? What do you think.


Legends:
The Fabler learns many stories over the course of her career, but learns a few very compelling stories suitable for teaching to her companions. Each Legend has a Made Form, an object representing its power and legend made more tangible. Made Forms grant abilities, which can only be used while the Made Form is in hand or being worn. Each Legend also grants the Fabler one or more Heroic Teachings, buffs the Fabler can support the foci of her Storytime with. 24 hours after Storytime, the Fabler loses her current Made Form and all Heroic Teachings.When you take your first level in Fabler, select two Legends. Select another Legend each time you gain this feature (every 2 levels for the 10-level progression, every 4 levels for the 20-level progression). You cannot choose the same Legend more than once.

I'll go over the individual Legends further down. The Made Form, I think should be renamed 'Props' because that flows off the tongue better IMHO. Same with Heroic Teachings/Realizations with 'Morals'(I can just hear a Fabler saying, "and the Moral of the story is..."). You also need to mention how many rounds a day of Heroic Teaching you get(I suggest as the bard 4+CHA mod+(2xLvl). Beyond that, great concept!


Tales:
Tales are smaller stories unrelated to the Fabler’s main legends that the Fabler learns over the course of their career. Whenever you gain a new Tale, select one from the list available to learn. Unless specified otherwise, you cannot take the same Tale more than once......This part I did not get to this time around, but I agree. The Plot Twists could still be tied in in some way, and further Made Form abilities and Heroic Teachings could be locked behind levels, or maybe better yet, at certain levels, you could gain one new Teaching or Made Form ability for each Legend known. This I'm still working out the details of, but it won't be long coming!

Ok, while both things as we have discussed them are great, I think you should go with either Tales or Plot Twists, not both. I personally lean more towards Plot Twists as they are thematic and edit an ability you already have, while Tales, as they are currently written, are new permanent abilities a player can select from(which to me, would make them seem a little more powerful than the Legends, which effects can technically only be used temporarily). As for Legend progression, I would either leave it as it currently is(where you get two realizations with each Legend) but make it so you can only use 1 realization per Teaching(and allow both at a later level) OR make 3 realizations, level lock each, but make their effects cumulative when they get them.



Heroic Teachings:
The Fabler can raise her allies’ spirits or provoke them to action by reminding them of aspects of the story she told to them last night. This ability functions as the Bardic Performance bard ability, except that the Fabler gains only access to only Inspire Courage (but see Legends for different types of performance the Fabler does have access to), and that the Fabler can only use Heroic Teachings on allies she chose as a focus of Storytime in the last 24 hours.

As I said before, just rename them Morals and include how many rounds you get a day. Otherwise, perfect.


Lich
Heroic Teachings:
Teaching of Mental Fortitude: New performance. You and each focus of your last Storytime each gain SR equal to 10+your level and +1 to effective caster level. Costs 1 round to activate and 2 rounds to maintain.
Teaching of Service: Once per day, you can expend 2 rounds of Heroic Teachings to use Command Undead, as the feat, without expending a use of Channel Energy. If you do not choose The Lich at your next Storytime, you lose control of any undead you were controlling before then.
Made Form:
The Lich's Tome: When you first choose The Lich as a Legend, choose (some number) spells from the Wizard/Sorcerer list. Whenever you select The Lich at Storytime, when you finish telling the story of The Lich, you find a spellbook containing those spells among your things. You can cast the spells from this spellbook once each, as if it were a scroll, except that you do not need to make any Spellcraft or Use Magic Device check. Whenever you gain a new Legend known, choose another spell of each level for which you have a slot (as per bard spell progression).

The Lich's realizations are excellent, leave them alone. The Made Form; give him spells x either INT mod +1 or CHA mod +1 off of the spellcasters list of your choice. He chooses the spells every time you tell the Legend. he can only select spells whose levels are less than or equal to half your Fabler level(rounded down)(so 0 at lvl1, 1 at 2 and 3, 2 at 4 and 5, so on and so forth). Using them as a scroll is perfect, leave it like that.


Hero
Heroic Teachings:
Teaching of Courage: Whenever you use Inspire Courage, you also grant your Inspire Courage bonus on AC and saves.
Teaching of Scouting: New performance. You and each focus of your last Storytime who can hear or see you gain a +10 ft enhancement bonus to base speed, a +4 enhancement bonus on Stealth checks, and a +4 enhancement bonus on Perception checks.
Made Form:
The Hero’s Arms: When you first choose The Hero as a Legend, choose one martial or exotic weapon. Whenever you select The Hero at Storytime, when you finish telling the story of The Hero, you find that weapon among your things. You are treated as proficient with that weapon for as long as your current Legend is The Hero. In 24 hours, the weapon is lost among your things until you select The Hero as your Legend at Storytime again. Whenever you gain a new Legend known, you can choose a +1 weapon enhancement for the chosen weapon to gain. If you do not choose a weapon enhancement, the weapon gains a +1 enhancement bonus, and you can choose to add a +2 weapon enhancement bonus to the weapon next time you gain a Legend. While you have this weapon, you can still enhance it as normal, but the normal rules apply, and the enhancements placed on the weapon by this ability can never be removed. You may take feats which require you to be proficient in this weapon (such as Weapon Focus), but only gain the effects of them when you are actually proficient (either because The Hero is your current Legend or because another effect grants you proficiency in this weapon type).

The Teaching of Courage is excellent, the Teaching of Scouting is good, but I feel it would be better on a different Legend(perhaps one of Nature?). For the Made Form, again, I feel the Divine Bond(weapon) would be perfect for this, and I'm sure you will agree.


Trickster
Heroic Teachings:
Teaching of Adaptation: New performance. You or a willing ally within 50 feet of you who was a focus of your last Storytime can take the form of a Small or Medium animal as Beast Shape I. You can maintain this performance on multiple targets simultaneously, but can only activate the performance on one target per round, and this uses one round of Heroic Teachings per target per round. At 9th level, you can use this ability as Beast Shape II, but it uses 2 rounds of Heroic Teachings per target per round. At 17th level, you can use this ability as Beast Shape III for 3 rounds per target per round, except that you cannot take the form of a magical beast this way.
Teaching of Opportunity: New performance. You can draw the attention of those who are not already hostile to you and make them more susceptible to suggestions. All intelligent creatures within 50 feet of you except those who participated in your last Storytime must make a Will save or become distracted by you. You take a -8 penalty on Sleight of Hand and Bluff checks during this performance and after you end it until the crowd moves on. All targets who do not make the save take a -8 penalty to Perception and Sense Motive checks against targets other than you and take a -4 penalty to Will saves during this performance.
Made Form:
The Trickster's Mask: Whenever you select The Trickster at Storytime, when you finish telling the story of The Trickster, you find a mask of a solid, light material among your things. When you wear this mask, you gain the following abilities:
Visage of Courage: As a swift action, choose one ally you can see who was the focus of your last Storytime. That ally gains a +4 morale bonus on attack rolls and is immune to fear effects for 1 round. This bonus stacks with the bonus granted by Inspire Courage, despite sharing a type.
Visage of Cowardice: As a swift action, choose one enemy you can see who is within 50 feet of you. That enemy takes a -4 morale penalty on attack rolls and saves against fear effects for 1 round.

I really want to like this, I really do. But I don't feel is fits Thematically with what a Trickster is. The Teaching of Adaptation would, again, fit better into another Legend, one based around Nature. The Teaching of Oppurtunity is more in line, but should include the standard charm weakness of if you or an ally take any hostile actions against an affected creature, the effect is broken. I totally see what you were going for with the Made Form(theater masks right?) But the effects just don't bring to mind any type of Trickster. For the Teachings; I suggest that one summons illusion doubles of all foci. They can't actually damage or do anything beyond movement, and they disappear when the Teaching ends or when successfully hit. When an opponent targets a foci with an attack, there is a 50% chance it will hit the double instead. For the Made Form, I would keep it simple and give him Disguise Self or Alter Self at will while the Legend is on and he wears the mask.


I'm absolutely glad to help! If you like, I can also think of some Legend ideas or fluff for the Legends you have. I really like this class concept. If I ever get enough time to participate in a pathfinder game, I totally plan on asking if I can use this class, once it is done of course 😜 keep the good juices flowing my friend!

[eternalink]

Sticking with your guns on this, I can highly respect that. In saying that, it IS an hour of potential prep time they are giving up just so you can be effective. I think you should add in an additional benefit for the foci to gain from listening to the Legend other than being able to be affected by the Fabler's Heroic Teachings, like maybe reducing the amount of sleep they need that night by an hour? What do you think.
This would be fine, and I do like the idea that just hearing the stories helps the foci learn something. I'd want it to be more interesting than a simple +1 to something, like the Shared Seance is. Maybe a 1/day ability they gain for 24 hours? Still thinking about this. I really don't think an hour is a big deal (all prepared casters need an hour to prepare spells), and I would consider Storytime to be something you could do just before bed, so it doesn't really cut into the adventuring day. That said, I still like the idea of it providing some kind of bonus. Maybe the foci can choose to gain one of the performance effects for a round without the Fabler having to use it? Still working on this in between finals.


I'll go over the individual Legends further down. The Made Form, I think should be renamed 'Props' because that flows off the tongue better IMHO. Same with Heroic Teachings/Realizations with 'Morals'(I can just hear a Fabler saying, "and the Moral of the story is..."). You also need to mention how many rounds a day of Heroic Teaching you get(I suggest as the bard 4+CHA mod+(2xLvl). Beyond that, great concept!
I will change the names in my next revision to reflect this (I think I might want different names down the line, but "Morals" and "Props" certainly are easier to refer to). I will refer to them as such from here on. Rounds of Morals are supposed to be 4+CHA + 2/level, just like Bard. I thought this was clear by saying "As Bardic Performance", but it can't hurt to make it clear. Will put this into the next revision.


Ok, while both things as we have discussed them are great, I think you should go with either Tales or Plot Twists, not both. I personally lean more towards Plot Twists as they are thematic and edit an ability you already have, while Tales, as they are currently written, are new permanent abilities a player can select from(which to me, would make them seem a little more powerful than the Legends, which effects can technically only be used temporarily).
I have two battling desires here. I still think the Fabler needs another class feature, ideally on that isn't related directly to the Morals. This is important partially to fill out the class's progression and partially because the Morals are limited by rounds per day. The Fabler should probably also have a way to do things when they aren't near allies or when they want to help an ally who wasn't there for Storytime.
On the other hand, Plot Twists are really cool and related to the theme in a big way. The Fabler's chassis is basically just slightly improved Bardic Performance plus slightly different Medium abilities, but without the spellcasting of either class. I want to fill out the class and make them feel more interesting and full-featured, but I don't want to give spellcasting. I want to add ideas and things to do without making the class more complicated to play. I really don't know what to do here. Regarding the power of Tales versus Legends, Tales are balanced around Hexes, where Legends are more like powerful Domains. Think of the Fabler as a Shaman who can has only a wandering spirit (no normal spirit), but can't cast spells and has no wandering hex. From this perspective, the class still seems weak (though Legends are more powerful than Spirits, ideally). This is the major struggle I'm having.


The Lich's realizations are excellent, leave them alone. The Made Form; give him spells x either INT mod +1 or CHA mod +1 off of the spellcasters list of your choice. He chooses the spells every time you tell the Legend. he can only select spells whose levels are less than or equal to half your Fabler level(rounded down)(so 0 at lvl1, 1 at 2 and 3, 2 at 4 and 5, so on and so forth). Using them as a scroll is perfect, leave it like that.
So you're leaning towards the idea of having the Lich's Prop power give a low number of spells, and having them unable to have duplicates, but having a wide variety of what they can be? I worry that if the Fabler can select them anew each day, it will have two negative effects:

Make the class very strong, especially when compared to the Relic Channeler Medium archetype it's based strongly on
Make the Lich feel less like one continuous legendary character (If their abilities are constantly changing, how can the player identify strongly with them as a story with a history?)



The Teaching of Courage is excellent, the Teaching of Scouting is good, but I feel it would be better on a different Legend(perhaps one of Nature?). For the Made Form, again, I feel the Divine Bond(weapon) would be perfect for this, and I'm sure you will agree.
I really want to like this, I really do. But I don't feel is fits Thematically with what a Trickster is. The Teaching of Adaptation would, again, fit better into another Legend, one based around Nature. The Teaching of Opportunity is more in line, but should include the standard charm weakness of if you or an ally take any hostile actions against an affected creature, the effect is broken. I totally see what you were going for with the Made Form(theater masks right?) But the effects just don't bring to mind any type of Trickster. For the Teachings; I suggest that one summons illusion doubles of all foci. They can't actually damage or do anything beyond movement, and they disappear when the Teaching ends or when successfully hit. When an opponent targets a foci with an attack, there is a 50% chance it will hit the double instead. For the Made Form, I would keep it simple and give him Disguise Self or Alter Self at will while the Legend is on and he wears the mask.
You're right. Particularly about some parts of the Trickster. That said, I think we're thinking about the Legends a little differently. These legends are meant to be examples. In the perfect world, each DM (or player) with a Fabler at their table should be willing to put in the effort to make Legends for legendary figures in their setting's past. These Legends are based on characters who are legends within my own campaign setting, which is not a blanket excuse, but does explain a little why they might not conform to the ideas of a given archetype perfectly. I'll give a little more information about who these particular legends are and where they came from.


The Lich:
Xelphon the Sinful was a lizardfolk wizard said to have lived a thousand years. He was a major political force shaping the entire continent in which he lived for the entire first half of his life. After 500 years or so of shaping the world in which he lived, controlling a vast kingdom in the East and trading threats and diplomacy with the kings that rose and fell, he grew tired of dealing with the mortals who were unable or unwilling to discover and use the secrets of forbidden magic and immortality he had found. He traveled to the extreme corner of his realm and, in a single spell, constructed a pyramid of pure basalt, almost entirely buried underground, into which he retreated to conduct his research in peace. He relinquished control of most of his land to whatever king tried to take it, and the only contact he had with the outside world was via the massive army of undead laborers he employed to collect taxes and magically gifted peasants in his greatly diminished lands, as well as to conduct business dealings to purchase the enormous quantities of materials he required for his research, and to collect the corpse of every person who died in his lands to serve after death. Eventually, after a millennium of his research, a coalition of other powerful mages, kings, and inquisitors decided his research had finally gone too far to be allowed to continue, and they baited him out of his fortress to engage them in a battle he was sure he could win. There, the combined forces of the most powerful mages of the continent and the most faithful inquisitors of the world smote him down, and thus did the his own story end. His fortress remains, however, the knowledge of its location lost and forbidden to seek.
Xelphon represents the archetype of the scholar who learns knowledge humans (mortals, really) were never meant to know, and whose humanity is eventually destroyed by his knowledge and search for more such knowledge. He's a pretty straightforward archetype.


The Hero:
Before he was a god, Zareul the Mighty was a great hero of a civilization whose name has been forgotten. His prowess was known throughout the land, and he embarked on quests and journeys no other would dare try. He fought monsters other heroes wouldn't dare whisper the name of and invaded foreign lands for no reason other than to spread his own legend. At everything he did, he was superlative, and even when he was foolish (as he often was), he was gloriously foolish. For Zareul, it was better to be known for one's foolishness than to be unknown. And he certainly succeeded at his own personal search for glory, with the stories of his exploits enough to fill many volumes. In the final story of his initial saga, Zareul was called to war on behalf of his nation. He went gladly to participate in the greatest war the world had known, and he made a name for himself slaying hundreds of well-trained and well-equipped soldiers. In his final battle, it is said that he slew ten great champions fielded by the enemy before finally succumbing to his wounds. Zareul died, but his contribution allowed his nation to win that war and take dominion over the entire world. However, his tale did not end there. Zareul was too filled with the might of his deeds to simply slip into the ether, and the weight of his deeds prevented him from reincarnating. His soul gradually coalesced in the heavens, growing in substance and might, until he emerged from the cocoon, Zareul, the god of glory. His tale has survived for so many thousands of years because whenever the people begin to forget, Zareul will descend from the heavens and perform some new feat of greatness.
Zareul is basically Achilles, to be honest. He values glory above all else, and in his capacity as a deity, he tells his followers to do the same. He's a loner who thinks he can do everything on his own. He's all the good and the bad of Nietzschian masculinity. His commands are simple: Be the best at what you do, and tell everyone about it so they will aspire to do the same. The Teaching of Scouting is supposed to reflect his loner nature, striking out on his own ahead of his companions to find the fiercest foe he can match himself against. You're right though, that clearly something is missing. Maybe the stealth thing muddies the water too much?


The Trickster:
Every culture yet discovered has a story of the Shade, an shapeshifter beyond the ken of mortal thought. No story exists explaining where the Shade came from, or what it is, or what it wants. Its only motivation appears to be a deep desire to sow chaos and confusion, and a love of deception for its own sake. The Shade is a pathological liar, a giver of many gifts, all of which have strings attached. In many traditions, the Shade will appear to common folk seeking an improvement in their condition, and will offer them gifts to allow them to take the power they desire. However, the Shade is not a champion of the common people. Whatever it gives, it always uses to cause chaos or disappointment. At its most benevolent, the Shade will impersonate a bird and lead a hero to a legendary weapon before defecating on their head. At its most malicious, the Shade will use its powers to convince a leader to become cruel and oppressive, then empower peasants to rise up and kill the leader, revealing itself at the last moment to have been playing both sides off each other. The Shade, according to these tales, does not have any real goals beyond short-term deception and manipulation for their own sake.
The Shade is a sort of amalgamation of shapeshifter tropes, similar to the Native American tale of Coyote or the Japanese legend of the kitsune. I feel that the Morals are decent for this (Teaching of Adaptation is the whole shapeshifter thing, Teaching of Opportunity is the idea of being distracting/entrancing/convincing), but I think the Prop powers are pretty meh and don't really fit, you're right. I'm worried that just Disguise/Alter Self at will would be kind of boring and not good in very many situations? Not sure, help me out here.


I'm absolutely glad to help! If you like, I can also think of some Legend ideas or fluff for the Legends you have. I really like this class concept. If I ever get enough time to participate in a pathfinder game, I totally plan on asking if I can use this class, once it is done of course 😜 keep the good juices flowing my friend!
Thanks! Feel free to tweak it yourself, use it, let me know how it went. I'd love to hear some Legend ideas! As I said above, I think the Fabler will work best when the DM (and/or the player) is willing to put in the effort to design Legends around actual historical or mythical figures in the backstory of the setting. The legends here are intended to be a jumping-off point for creating your own Legends, and to serve as Legends for players/DMs who aren't ready to put in the necessary effort to make Legends for the world their campaign takes place in.

[ChaoticHarmony]

O boy, let's get started!


This would be fine, and I do like the idea that just hearing the stories helps the foci learn something. I'd want it to be more interesting than a simple +1 to something, like the Shared Seance is. Maybe a 1/day ability they gain for 24 hours? Still thinking about this. I really don't think an hour is a big deal (all prepared casters need an hour to prepare spells), and I would consider Storytime to be something you could do just before bed, so it doesn't really cut into the adventuring day. That said, I still like the idea of it providing some kind of bonus. Maybe the foci can choose to gain one of the performance effects for a round without the Fabler having to use it? Still working on this in between finals.

Your right, it wouldn't be that big of a deal for the Fabler to give up an hour so he can use his powers. It is, however, important to note that it isnt just an hour of his time he is using, but an hour of the other characters' time. As Story time is currently written, the characters have to be willing, participating members in order for them to get any bonus. For martial classes and spontaneous casters, that means 8 hours of sleep, and 1 hour to receive a bonus from the Fabler. For non spontaneous casters, you add in an extra hour. And that isn't even counting other prep time activities(eating, gathering info, repairing/maintaining equipment) Unless you are playing a game where the players only have to worry about getting enough rest to refresh their abilities, the Fabler essentially wastes the time of other PCs, just so he can be an effective support. In saying that, any bonus shouldn't be something significant. My suggestion would be +1 to all knowledge checks or they require 1 less sustaining meal a day(the story feeds their soul); something along those lines gives incentive to PCs to listen while not being OP.


I have two battling desires here. I still think the Fabler needs another class feature, ideally on that isn't related directly to the Morals. This is important partially to fill out the class's progression and partially because the Morals are limited by rounds per day. The Fabler should probably also have a way to do things when they aren't near allies or when they want to help an ally who wasn't there for Storytime.
On the other hand, Plot Twists are really cool and related to the theme in a big way. The Fabler's chassis is basically just slightly improved Bardic Performance plus slightly different Medium abilities, but without the spellcasting of either class. I want to fill out the class and make them feel more interesting and full-featured, but I don't want to give spellcasting. I want to add ideas and things to do without making the class more complicated to play. I really don't know what to do here. Regarding the power of Tales versus Legends, Tales are balanced around Hexes, where Legends are more like powerful Domains. Think of the Fabler as a Shaman who can has only a wandering spirit (no normal spirit), but can't cast spells and has no wandering hex. From this perspective, the class still seems weak (though Legends are more powerful than Spirits, ideally). This is the major struggle I'm having.

Ok, I see what you are getting at here. In saying that, I think you just need to refluff Tales. Tales are short stories the Fabler learns from while he writes his own Legendary Story Fluff wise, this gives a reason why this empowers him and not others. It also sets up a potential Capstone ability(perhaps one where he gains minor control over the fabric of reality?) Plot Twist can be a Tale that allows him to change the Legend in some way(like maybe instead of giving the lessons as bonuses to your foci, give them as penalties to all but your foci)


So you're leaning towards the idea of having the Lich's Prop power give a low number of spells, and having them unable to have duplicates, but having a wide variety of what they can be? I worry that if the Fabler can select them anew each day, it will have two negative effects:
Make the class very strong, especially when compared to the Relic Channeler Medium archetype it's based strongly on
Make the Lich feel less like one continuous legendary character (If their abilities are constantly changing, how can the player identify strongly with them as a story with a history?)

This one is simple, especially after reading his awesome story. The Archmage Spirit of the Medium class grants bonus spells from the Wizard/Sorceror spell list as well, only it is bound to the Medium's Spell Slots. This would be no different than if a Rune Channeled selected the Wild Arcana spirit power. Now doing a bit more research, my original suggestion is definitely overpowered(potentially 3 lvl6 spells at lvl12, for a class based on half casters? Yikes!) But if you narrow it down to one or two schools of magic, that should balance it out better. You have to keep in mind that each spell can only be used once per day, are cast at its lowest level, and you cannot select a spell more than once per day(so no spamming Chain Lightning or Invisibility). as for Thematics, based on your given story, it is not without reason that the Lich could have access to all schools, but with my new suggestion, I would narrow it down between Necromancy, Evocation, or Transmutation for Schools



Zareul is basically Achilles, to be honest. He values glory above all else, and in his capacity as a deity, he tells his followers to do the same. He's a loner who thinks he can do everything on his own. He's all the good and the bad of Nietzschian masculinity. His commands are simple: Be the best at what you do, and tell everyone about it so they will aspire to do the same. The Teaching of Scouting is supposed to reflect his loner nature, striking out on his own ahead of his companions to find the fiercest foe he can match himself against. You're right though, that clearly something is missing. Maybe the stealth thing muddies the water too much?

I would say the stealth and the perception bonus detract, but I like what you were going for. Now I have an idea, but it depends on how the Teachings work exactly. Does the Fabler select one Moral at a time when Teaching? Or do both effects go off whenever the Fabler is Teaching? For the former, I suggest doubling the effect of Inspire Courage(call it Teaching of Ambition). That fits more thematically with the story of Zareul IMHO.


The Shade is a sort of amalgamation of shapeshifter tropes, similar to the Native American tale of Coyote or the Japanese legend of the kitsune. I feel that the Morals are decent for this (Teaching of Adaptation is the whole shapeshifter thing, Teaching of Opportunity is the idea of being distracting/entrancing/convincing), but I think the Prop powers are pretty meh and don't really fit, you're right. I'm worried that just Disguise/Alter Self at will would be kind of boring and not good in very many situations? Not sure, help me out here.

These stories are bringing a lot of ideas of how to help. So with the Trickster, I see two transformation options. The first, make the Beast Shape your Prop ability. Limit it to a single animal type when the Legend is first selected(Birds, lizards, cats, etc) then allow him to change into any animal of that type as per the level of Beast Shape he gets. The second idea; have him always change into an animal off of the Familar List. As a bonus action, a foci can perceive through your senses, and can use any supernatural ability or spell as though they are where you are. You are unable to take any action except to move, as it takes all of your focus to keep the Teaching going while transformed in this way. Another option for the Prop; up to three times per day, you can target one creature. That creature gains +1 to a stat of your choice and -2 to AC, attack rolls, and saving throws for 1d6 rounds.

Again, I really like this class(and am totally going to use it one day), but a thought crossed my mind. From a Thematic and Mechanic standpoint, why would I want a Fabler on my team of adventurers? In a standard adventuring team of 6, the roles needed for a well balanced team are Tank, DPS, Healer, Toolbox, Support, and Library, typically fielded by a Fighter, Ranger, Cleric, Rogue, Bard and Wizard. Now these classes can be changed around with other classes for a number of thematic and mechanical reasons. A Barbarian could take the role of Tank or a Summoner the role of Library. A player could fill multiple roles or offer as backups if needed, like a Paladin being a Tank and a backup healer. So my question is, why would I replace a Bard with a Fabler? What advantages do I get for choosing it? What are the disadvantages? As we talked, you mentioned that the Fabler would primarily be a Support role, so beyond the (imho) incredibly good Thematics and Fluff, why would I want to adventure with this class instead of another? I think answering this question will really help figure out what needs to be done to make this work. 😁