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MoleMage
2018-05-18, 02:35 PM
As per the interest thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?559064-Interest-check-5e-class-archetype-contest) posted yesterday, this is the chat thread for the subclass contest for D&D 5e. I'll update this first post as contests progress.

Current Contest: Contest VIII: Something Borrowed (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?585284-D-amp-D-Subclass-Contest-VIII-Something-Borrowed&p=23831805#post23831805)

Current Voting Thread: Contest VIII: Something Borrowed Voting Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?588433-D-amp-D-Subclass-Contest-VIII-Voting-Thread&p=23921791#post23921791)

Contest I: It's Technical (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?559109-D-amp-D-5e-Subclass-Contest-I-It-s-Technical&p=23081646#post23081646) won by Ivellius's Circle of Progress (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?561693-D-amp-D-5e-Subclass-Contest-I-Voting-Thread&p=23159734#post23159734)
Contest II: It Came From Beyond! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?562876-D-amp-D-5e-Subclass-Contest-II-It-Came-From-Beyond!&p=23194072#post23194072) won by Ninja_Prawn's Mirrorkin Sorcerous Origin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23198206&postcount=3)
Contest III: So You Don't Have To (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?566491-D-amp-D-Subclass-Contest-III-So-You-Don-t-Have-To&p=23296993#post23296993) won by Icecaster's Circle of the Conclave (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?569653-D-amp-D-Subclass-Contest-III-Voting-Thread&p=23383018#post23383018)
Contest IV: I Read This in a Book, Once (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?570463-D-amp-D-Subclass-Contest-IV-I-Read-This-in-a-Book-Once) won by nickl_2000's Pinball Wizard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23409001&postcount=5)
Contest V: Five Stars (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?573883-D-amp-D-Subclass-Contest-V-Five-Stars) won by Evil the Cat's Circle of Stars (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23513433&postcount=8)
Contest VI: Bunch of Fives (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?578579-D-amp-D-Subclass-Contest-VI-Bunch-of-Fives&p=23637385#post23637385) won by nickl_2000's College of the Luchador (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23643058&postcount=4)
Contest VII: Well, That's Fortunate (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?581983-D-amp-D-Subclass-Contest-VII-Well-That-s-Fortunate&p=23735713&viewfull=1#post23735713) won in a tie between Man_Over_Game's Fate Sorcery (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23741966&postcount=5) and Oubliette's Way of the Chance Dancer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23762897&postcount=11)



Rankings are based on number of submissions first, then number of contests.
Up to date as of Contest VII


Class
Number of Contests
Total Number of Submissions
Rank


Barbarian
5
6
4th


Bard
4
6
5th


Cleric
5
5
8th


Druid
5
5
8th


Fighter
3
6
7th


Monk
6
10
1st


Paladin
4
5
10th


Ranger
2
3
12th


Rogue
5
7
3rd


Sorcerer
3
3
11th


Warlock
5
8
2nd


Wizard
4
6
5th


Other/Homebrew
6
6
Unranked





It is Written (Destiny/Prophecy)
Refine Mayhem (Remake an existing subclass)
Hold the Line (Stationary heroes)
Calling Card (Summoning sigils and circles)
From Zero to Hero (Ordinary folks doing the extraordinary)
Subsystems Online (New game mechanics)
Keep it Simple, Stupid (simple subclasses)
My Way is Different (Alternate or rare mechanics)
Points for Everybody (Subclasses that use point-based resources?)
The Pen is Mightier than the Sword ("Subclasses specializing in stationery combat" --Ninja_Prawn)
Follow Me! (Command and Leadership)
Scaling Strangely (Subclasses that scale from unusual values)
Warriors of Old (Subclasses from previous editions)
Hold my Ale! (Subclasses themed around taverns, carousing, drinking, pub games, etc.)
Make a Choice (Subclasses which, like Hunter Ranger or Totem Barbarian, offer choices at one or more points)
Bigger is Better (Subclasses which have something bigger about them)



The class must fit the theme of the contest.
Your class must be posted in the contest thread. If you wish, you can use external formatting, such as Google Docs or Homebrewery, though I recommend sharing it as a PDF to ensure that it works on most computers.
You may only create one subclass, which must follow the normal progression for the class it belongs to. Please specify what class it is for. You can use any base class published in official material (including the Unearthed Arcana posts), or any existing homebrew class (don't make a whole base class just for your submission). If you are going to use a homebrew base class, make sure you get permission from its original creator and post a link so we know where to find it! Failure to get permission will be grounds for disqualification.
Until the contest is finished, do not post your subclass anywhere else. If you are found to have done so, that subclass will be disqualified (though you will be allowed to post a new one if you wish, within reason).
Your subclass must be complete by the deadline. After that, I will put up a voting thread. Any submissions or edits after that point will be considered invalid. A two week extension is implemented if at least three requests are made in the chat thread.
Have fun, be respectful.

Jama7301
2018-05-18, 03:25 PM
I was about to post something about how this may have been one of the trickier themes for me to come up with something, when an idea jumped into my head.

Funny how things work. Need to just pin down which class I want to tie it to. This should be fun. Good luck everyone.

Ninja_Prawn
2018-05-18, 03:41 PM
This is the first subclass competition on the forums. Or at least, I'm pretty sure it is.

I agree - we haven't had a true subclass contest for 5e yet! Amechra tried to run a 'slapdash' (i.e. you've got three days to finish your entry) contest back in 2015, but there wasn't much interest. I'm sure there will be more people taking part in this one.

I'll see if I can come up with a new idea... it's an theme I've explored before though, so I might not have much inspiration left for it.

WarrentheHero
2018-05-19, 12:19 PM
Do you think if I just submit Matthew Mercer's Gunslinger fighter subclass anyone would notice?

MoleMage
2018-05-19, 12:36 PM
Do you think if I just submit Matthew Mercer's Gunslinger fighter subclass anyone would notice?

Well now we would.

Blackbando
2018-05-19, 03:02 PM
Well now we would.

You overestimate my ability to know Mercer's gunslinger, it may still fool me.

MoleMage
2018-05-19, 09:33 PM
You overestimate my ability to know Mercer's gunslinger, it may still fool me.

Well now that he's said it, if he posts any type of gunslinger we can just go look up Mercer's gunslinger and compare them. That said, if he wants to do a gunslinger using original mechanics that's fine by me.


Bard College of Optics is up! I'm thinking I might need to dial back the damage on Focusing Lens, but other than that I am satisfied that I did what I could with it.

JNAProductions
2018-05-19, 10:10 PM
GAH! Why did I... WHy!

I went with some random monk subclass-I should've done a Megaman X Warlock!

Protato
2018-05-20, 12:01 AM
I did a Monk also! I hope its okay, I haven't done much for Monk before.

JNAProductions
2018-05-20, 11:41 AM
HUD is probably too much, combined with uber True Strike.

Giving yourself (with your one attack) and two other people Advantage on their next attack as a bonus action? Tis crazy, methinks.

Ninja_Prawn
2018-05-20, 12:22 PM
HUD is probably too much, combined with uber True Strike.

Giving yourself (with your one attack) and two other people Advantage on their next attack as a bonus action? Tis crazy, methinks.

The advantage doesn't spread to other people until you get the capstone. Mechanically, this is no stronger than the Arcane Trickster. You could argue it's more flexible, since you can cast *any* divination as a bonus action but, on the flip side, mage hand is a more flexible spell to start with.

It's intended that the main power of Multiplexed True Strike only comes online with the capstone. Rogue capstones are meant to be strong.

JNAProductions
2018-05-20, 12:46 PM
Um... Multiplexed True Strike makes it apply to up to three people. It most definitely applies to three people at level thirteen, as written now.

Ninja_Prawn
2018-05-20, 12:50 PM
Um... Multiplexed True Strike makes it apply to up to three people. It most definitely applies to three people at level thirteen, as written now.

Three targets. You have advantage on attacks against any of the three creatures you cast it on. Which, given that you're a rogue, is a rather modest benefit.

True strike is not faerie fire.

JNAProductions
2018-05-20, 02:13 PM
Good Lord, True Strike is WAY WORSE than I thought! I thought it was just blanket advantage on your next attack!

Side note-as the way the capstone is worded, it doesn't actually grant the benefits to anyone else.

Ninja_Prawn
2018-05-20, 03:03 PM
Side note-as the way the capstone is worded, it doesn't actually grant the benefits to anyone else.

Yeah, I realised that wasn't clear, so I've already added the clause "granting them the benefits of the spell."

Silkensword
2018-05-21, 02:53 PM
I posted mine a while ago, but i would love to enter the contest, is there a way to do so?

Ninja_Prawn
2018-05-21, 03:06 PM
I posted mine a while ago, but i would love to enter the contest, is there a way to do so?

Write a new one? The idea that you have to come up with a new entry for any given contest is one of the central tenets, after all... :smalltongue:

Silkensword
2018-05-21, 03:10 PM
Ah, fair point, Ninjaprawn. I Guess I will... but i'm so proud of that one! *pouty face* ah well, you'll hear back from me :3

Jama7301
2018-05-21, 05:21 PM
First time dabbling with a class that has spells. Promptly ignored Bonus Spells, because I didn't feel it was needed. Might have to re-add them later though if the class is weak. I am much more comfortable working with Martials than Casters at this experience level.

MoleMage
2018-05-24, 02:13 PM
PhoenixPhyre, your link appears to be broken. Or at least it isn't working for me.

Also, I dialed back Focusing Lens to 2x bardic inspiration die; die size already scaled so scaling the number of dice you got to use was compounding power.

EDIT: NinjaPrawn, you might want to specify that Divination spells you cast as a bonus action have to have a base cast time of 1 action. There are a handful of divination spells (like Identify) that normally take a minute to cast. Unless reducing the 1 minute cast time to a bonus action is intended (not getting anything above 4th level helps with this not being too strong).

Ninja_Prawn
2018-05-25, 01:38 AM
Unless reducing the 1 minute cast time to a bonus action is intended

It was intended. I'm aware that there are several on the list with default casting times longer than 1 action, but none of them seem like they'd be particularly game-breaking in combat, so I don't think it's an issue.

MoleMage
2018-05-25, 06:51 AM
It was intended. I'm aware that there are several on the list with default casting times longer than 1 action, but none of them seem like they'd be particularly game-breaking in combat, so I don't think it's an issue.

Fair enough. I went looking and on the SRD it looks like identify is the only one they'll get natively. A bit of a cleric multiclass nets them...augury. So you're right, nothing particularly useful for combat. Though mid-combat auguries might be fun. "What will happen if I use fire on that monster?" "WOE!" "Okay, no fire guys."

EDIT: I'm going to be offline from Saturday May 26 through Saturday June 2. Nobody do anything that requires judication during that time. I'll check back in Sunday the 3rd or maybe Monday the 4th.

PhoenixPhyre
2018-05-25, 08:06 AM
PhoenixPhyre, your link appears to be broken. Or at least it isn't working for me.


Sigh. WOMM, but I put the text of the subclass in a spoiler. That'll be the one I update based on any suggestions.

Mourne
2018-05-28, 01:02 AM
The Clockwork Warframe (PhoenixPhyre) - Comments

First off, this is completely awesome (well, it would be if I didn’t despise gnomes as PC race :wink:). Right on theme!

I do have a number of questions and comments in the spoiler.



First, the questions:


Is it intended to only be used by gnomes?
How does one enter/remove the Warframe (how long does it take)?
Can one wear armor while within the Warframe or is it considered armor? If so, what is the AC?
If the Warframe is destroyed, how long and at what cost can a replacement be made? If it can be destroyed or damaged, how is this done and what would be the properties of the Warframe as an object?


Comments after each feature (if provided).

Augmented Strength
When you choose this archetype at 3rd level, you have finished the basic framework of your exoskeleton. This frame provides significantly increased strength and stability. When you wield a weapon with the Versatile trait in one hand, you use the same damage die as if you were wielding it in two hands. You also ignore the Heavy property of weapons entirely.

In addition, you can attempt a grapple or shove against creatures up to two sizes larger than you. Your carrying capacity doubles.

Great “kickoff” feature. My only concern would be the grapple/shove mechanic – especially if the suit is worn by a medium or large creature (e.g. a custom large PC race or a medium creature under the effect of the enlarge/reduce spell). A large creature could grapple something gargantuan.

Weaponized Exoskeleton
By the time you reach 10th level, you have completed a significant upgrade to your exoskeleton. Choose one of the options below:

Sweeping Strike: You have upgraded the arms of your suit, letting you scythe through enemies. Once per turn when you take the Attack action, you can perform a sweeping strike instead of one of your regular attacks. Choose a 180 degree arc and make an attack roll; all targets in that arc within the reach of your weapon that would be hit by that attack roll take damage as if they were struck by the weapon normally.

Death from Above: You have upgraded the legs of your suit, enabling potent leaping attacks. When you fall at least 10 feet onto another creature and make a successful weapon attack against it, the target must make a Strength saving throw or be knocked prone and be pushed 5 feet in a direction of your choosing. If the target fails the saving throw, you can use a bonus action to make one additional weapon attack against it.

If you would have taken falling damage, you take none and the target takes the whole amount as additional damage whether or not it failed the save.

I can see how this applies to falling on another creature (though it’s not clear how one would control where they land), but it’s not clear how you would actively jump up, attain height, and land on an enemy. The bonus action portion should be reworded as, on the failed save, the target is pushed 5 feet and is then likely out of reach of the bonus attack.

Defensive Augmentation
By the time you reach 15th level, you have completed a second significant upgrade. Choose one of the options below:

Turn the Blow: You have strengthened the arms of the suit to let you deflect melee attacks against you. When another creature hits you with a melee weapon attack, you can make an attack roll as a reaction. If your total result is higher than the triggering attack, you successfully deflect the attack. If you roll a critical hit, the force of the parry unbalances the opponent and the next attack against them has advantage.

Deflecting blows strains the mechanism--once you successfully deflect an attack twice in this way, you must complete maintenance during a long or short rest before you can use it again.

I’m not sure the limit/recovery mechanism is needed – you already have a cost (reaction) so it would be difficult to abuse. Alternately, if you wanted to be boring (and assuming the Warframe is your armor and/or you can’t use shield), you could make the Warframe’s arm serve the role of shield (static AC increase).


Stabilizing Frame
Beginning at 18th level, the torso portion of your exoskeleton has been augmented to provide medical treatment to keep you in the fight longer. At the beginning of each of your turns, you regain hit points equal to your Constitution modifier if you have no more than half of your hit points left and are not incapacitated.

Add the “(minimum of 1)” wording just in case…

Mourne
2018-05-28, 01:20 AM
Bard College of Optics (MoleMage) -- Comments

Interesting concept! One minor quibble is that it’s hard to really (for me) to tie the school to the Bard as there’s nothing inherently musical, inspiring, or charming about the school.

Comments (where provided) in the spoiler.

Opticist's Glass
Upon joining the College of Optics at 3rd level, you learn to craft a specialized tool, which combines advanced lenses with magical know-how to focus and redirect light. Your Opticist's Glass only functions for you, and has the following uses:


• The Opticist's Glass functions as an improved spyglass. At your option, you may choose to adjust the magnification of items viewed through the glass from anywhere between two and four times normal size. Additionally, you have advantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks made when viewing distant objects through your glass.
• The Opticist's Glass can be used to make a ranged attack against a target within 120 feet. This attack deals radiant damage equal to 1d10 + your Dexterity modifier.
• You can use the Opticist's Glass to cast Silent Image as a 1st level spell at will by projecting holographic light. The space between the Glass and the image must remain unobstructed, and creatures have advantage on their Intelligence (Investigation) checks to identify that a projected Silent Image is illusory.
• You can use your Opticist's Glass as an arcane spell focus for your Bard spells.

In regards to the ranged attack, the range may be looked at as spell like or as per a ranged weapon in which case there should be a normal/long range. I’m not sure which you intended (well, beyond that it’s currently worded like a spell). It might be fun to treat it like a ranged weapon with a 120/240 range.

I can understand how radiant could apply, but I think fire would be more appropriate – remove any of the metaphysical from the damage output (as Radiant damage is also seen as “overloading the spirit with power”.

If your Opticist's Glass is lost or broken, you can replace it by expending 500 gold pieces worth of materials with 8 hours of work.

This seems really expensive! How many HP and AC is the Glass? I would guess these numbers might be small (as it’s…glass) so it wouldn’t be difficult to break – either accidentely or targeted.

Focusing Lens
At level 6, your Opticist's Glass improves as you add new lenses to its design to focus its power further. Whenever you hit with an attack roll using the Opticist's Glass, you can spend one of your uses of Bardic Inspiration to increase the damage dealt by that attack. Roll your bardic inspiration die twice and add the total to the damage dealt by your Glass.

This is really clever! Great job!

Splitting Lens
At level 14, you add an array of lenses and mirrors designed to fire additional shots from your Opticist's Glass. When you use the Attack action to attack with your glass, you can expend up to two uses of Bardic Inspiration. For each use expended in this way, you can make an additional attack with the glass, but you cannot attack the same target twice.

This certainly works, but it would be even better if you could find a way to accomplish this without further taxing Inspiration (which is already fueling extra damage and its “normal” function”). No helpful ideas here.

Some general thoughts… this begs to use the blinded condition somehow (imo). Or the ability to create light in a focused 10’ (for example) radius at a targeted point within its range. Or the creation of a scintillating pattern of rainbow light for charming or distracting… so many cool options!

PhoenixPhyre
2018-05-28, 06:51 AM
I'm not fond of gnomes per se (they're not playable in my setting), but when inspiration strikes...





Is it intended to only be used by gnomes?
How does one enter/remove the Warframe (how long does it take)?
Can one wear armor while within the Warframe or is it considered armor? If so, what is the AC?
If the Warframe is destroyed, how long and at what cost can a replacement be made? If it can be destroyed or damaged, how is this done and what would be the properties of the Warframe as an object?



1) No. It's designed to be most common among gnomes. There's a line about how the knowledge to create them has found its way elsewhere.
2-4) The intent was to handwave that--I'm not fond of the idea of a destructable sub-class. It's just a framework, so hanging armor over it merely means you need a slightly different size (which is abstracted away anyway. I'm assuming you're doing constant maintenance on it during rests and downtime. While sleeping in a hostile place (like a wilderness), you'd sleep in it.



Comments after each feature (if provided).

Augmented Strength
When you choose this archetype at 3rd level, you have finished the basic framework of your exoskeleton. This frame provides significantly increased strength and stability. When you wield a weapon with the Versatile trait in one hand, you use the same damage die as if you were wielding it in two hands. You also ignore the Heavy property of weapons entirely.

In addition, you can attempt a grapple or shove against creatures up to two sizes larger than you. Your carrying capacity doubles.

Great “kickoff” feature. My only concern would be the grapple/shove mechanic – especially if the suit is worn by a medium or large creature (e.g. a custom large PC race or a medium creature under the effect of the enlarge/reduce spell). A large creature could grapple something gargantuan.


That's by design. This archetype is all about grappling, so you should be able to grapple anything if you spend resources.



Weaponized Exoskeleton
By the time you reach 10th level, you have completed a significant upgrade to your exoskeleton. Choose one of the options below:

Sweeping Strike: You have upgraded the arms of your suit, letting you scythe through enemies. Once per turn when you take the Attack action, you can perform a sweeping strike instead of one of your regular attacks. Choose a 180 degree arc and make an attack roll; all targets in that arc within the reach of your weapon that would be hit by that attack roll take damage as if they were struck by the weapon normally.

Death from Above: You have upgraded the legs of your suit, enabling potent leaping attacks. When you fall at least 10 feet onto another creature and make a successful weapon attack against it, the target must make a Strength saving throw or be knocked prone and be pushed 5 feet in a direction of your choosing. If the target fails the saving throw, you can use a bonus action to make one additional weapon attack against it.

If you would have taken falling damage, you take none and the target takes the whole amount as additional damage whether or not it failed the save.

I can see how this applies to falling on another creature (though it’s not clear how one would control where they land), but it’s not clear how you would actively jump up, attain height, and land on an enemy. The bonus action portion should be reworded as, on the failed save, the target is pushed 5 feet and is then likely out of reach of the bonus attack.


The idea was to jump off of something (a ledge, a cliff, a wall, a tree, etc). Even a 5' height advantage lets you get 10' up. Pairs greatly with a jumping boost. I'll reword the bonus action thing (the idea was so you end up in the creature's former spot and thus are next to them so you don't end up in the same square).



Defensive Augmentation
By the time you reach 15th level, you have completed a second significant upgrade. Choose one of the options below:

Turn the Blow: You have strengthened the arms of the suit to let you deflect melee attacks against you. When another creature hits you with a melee weapon attack, you can make an attack roll as a reaction. If your total result is higher than the triggering attack, you successfully deflect the attack. If you roll a critical hit, the force of the parry unbalances the opponent and the next attack against them has advantage.

Deflecting blows strains the mechanism--once you successfully deflect an attack twice in this way, you must complete maintenance during a long or short rest before you can use it again.

I’m not sure the limit/recovery mechanism is needed – you already have a cost (reaction) so it would be difficult to abuse. Alternately, if you wanted to be boring (and assuming the Warframe is your armor and/or you can’t use shield), you could make the Warframe’s arm serve the role of shield (static AC increase).



I was uncomfortable letting you possibly deflect one attack per round with no limit. It's way more powerful than deflect missiles (the monk ability), which is what's its based on.



Stabilizing Frame
Beginning at 18th level, the torso portion of your exoskeleton has been augmented to provide medical treatment to keep you in the fight longer. At the beginning of each of your turns, you regain hit points equal to your Constitution modifier if you have no more than half of your hit points left and are not incapacitated.

Add the “(minimum of 1)” wording just in case…
[/SPOILER]

Yeah, probably a good idea.

Thanks for the comments!

Ninja_Prawn
2018-05-28, 08:53 AM
it looks like identify is the only one they'll get natively.

Clairvoyance, as well. Still though, I don't see a problem there; any benefit you could derive from casting it as a bonus action is well within the bounds of the amount of power I'm intending to give out.

Mourne
2018-05-30, 12:20 AM
Analyst (Ninja_Prawn) -- Comments

Interesting subclass, though it fits into the contest more thematically than mechanically imo (something I'm very guilty of myself).

Spellcasting
When you reach 3rd level, you gain the ability to cast spells. See chapter 10 for the general rules of spellcasting and chapter 11 for the wizard spell list...

Generic comments in regards to the Analyst casting overall...what are Chronomancy spells? A custom spell school I’m guessing?

Multiplexed True Strike
Starting at 3rd level, when you cast true strike, you can choose up to three targets rather than just one. Additionally, you can ignore half and three-quarter cover when attacking a creature you have marked with true strike, and you do not need to perform any spell components when you cast true strike.

By spell components, I’m guessing you’re talking about the somatic requirement? So able to cast while bound and gagged – even though not so useful in the context of what True Strike is intended for (at least until Telepathic Divination comes into play).

This plays real well into the wheelhouse of the Rogue, even with the single attack as they can more easily set up sneak on an opportunity attack. Good synergy without being too powerful!


Data-Driven Investments
By 9th level, you have amassed enough data to gain the upper hand in commercial transactions. You can add double your proficiency bonus to any Intelligence check you make to appraise an item, compute currency exchanges and interest rates, and predict which commodities will be in demand up to 30 days into the future.

This feels somewhat underpowered compared to the other Rogue archetypes. Definitely some room to grow here – maybe allow for all divination spells to be cast without 1 of their components (and, if they only have one, then have no components – similar to multiplexed true strike)?

Heads-Up Display
At 13th level, you can cast any divination spell you know as a bonus action.

Is the expectation here then that the rules for casting spells with a bonus action (PHB p202) are then followed? Or was the intent for something more (e.g. ability to cast a divination bonus and then be able to use action to cast an additional spell)?

I’m guessing this is really intended to use true strike as a setup for easier sneak attacks (especially ranged, given ignoring 1/2 and 3/4 covers as part of the 3rd level feature).


Telepathic Divination
At 17th level, whenever you cast a divination spell, you can telepathically broadcast the information you glean to any willing creature within 30 feet of you, granting them the benefits of the spell. If the spell can be controlled or manipulated after being cast (e.g. arcane eye), only you can control it.

Would this include the Hunter’s Mark (if gained from multi-classing) and the expanded benefit of Multiplexed True Strike? How would you handle the benefits of Guidance (also, if received from multi-classing)? Beyond those questions, I think this feature is really flavorful and has a lot of potential “cool” applications.

Mourne
2018-05-30, 12:44 AM
Path to Singularity (JNAProductions) -- Comments

This prevented me from delving into a subclass that used augmentations (didn't want to replicate/have a subclass with similar features). Points for beating me to the punch! :smalltongue:

I feel this really hews close to the theme... perhaps too closely as one overall "weakness" I see with this subclass is that it in no way uses ki in any of its features and thus doesn't feel like it's a monastic tradition (intended?). Regardless, good job!

Man-Machine: At level three, when you take this subclass, you begin replacing your body with cybernetic parts. These initial improvements increase your martial arts die by one step and grant you resistance to poison damage, as well as advantage on saves against poison.

Just to be clear, this increases the current and all future progressions of the martial arts die by one step?

Even with the inclusion of the resistance and save advantage, this feels a little behind the curve compared to the other traditions – maybe due to being primarily a setup to later features?

The Monk 3rd level feature is normally ki focused – just an observation.

More Machine Than Man: At level six, you gain advantage on saves made against Exhaustion. In addition, you reduce all non-magical bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage you take by your proficiency bonus (applied before resistance, if applicable).

Sadly, I don’t see exhaustion used as much as it should be (imo). I understand how this works for this tradition, but in the hands of a lot of DMs could be a useless feature.

I do have some concerns about reduction of damage via the proficiency bonus (as opposed to the more “normal” granting of resistance). This would essentially make this monk un-killable by a large swathe of low CR creatures. At least with resistance, you can’t drop below 1 damage received (?). In a lot of ways, this feature is better than spells like Stoneskin without costing any resource whatsoever.

Blinged-Out Robo Bits: At level eleven, you gain one of several upgrades:
-Rocket Fist-You can fire your fist as a projectile. This attack is treated as an unarmed strike, save it has a range of 60'/240'. You may do this up to twice-once for each arm-before you must reattach your fists. Re-attaching one fist is a bonus action, both is an action, and it requires you to recover your hand first.
-Rocket Legs-You gain a fly speed equal to your land speed, but must end your turn on solid ground or fall.
-Bionic Eyes-You double the range of your Darkvision, or gain Darkvision out to 60' if you did not already possess it. You can also focus your eyes as an action-if you do so, you gain Truesight out to 10' for as long as you both Concentrate (as if on a spell) and use your action every round.
-General Reinforcements-You gain +1 to your AC.

Very cool. And the upgrades cover the spectrum (offensive, defensive, movement, exploration…). Only missing an odd social upgrade. :wink:

I, Robot: At level seventeen, you have become the machine-man hybrid you always wished to be. You gain immunity to Exhaustion, your More Machine Than Man feature now applies to all bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage, and you gain immunity to lightning damage. In addition, you may spend a ki point without an action to absorb lightning and charge yourself-when you would take lightning damage, the ki may be spent to heal yourself for the damage you would've taken, were you not immune.

For clarity: If you take lightning damage, you can spend 1 ki point and heal for the amount of damage you would have received?

JNAProductions
2018-05-30, 12:59 AM
Yes. Let's say you're hit for 23 Lightning Damage. You would take no damage (being immune) but could spend one ki point to heal for 23.

Ninja_Prawn
2018-05-30, 02:00 AM
To answer your questions:


Interesting subclass, though it fits into the contest more thematically than mechanically imo (something I'm very guilty of myself).

I dunno. It's all about gathering information via divination magic. I reckon that's pretty technical.


what are Chronomancy spells? A custom spell school I’m guessing?

Gah, that's a copy-paste error. It should say divination and transmutation.


This feels somewhat underpowered compared to the other Rogue archetypes.

Well, it's an interaction feature. It's not going to be powerful. I'm not too worried about this one.


Is the expectation here then that the rules for casting spells with a bonus action (PHB p202) are then followed?

Yes. As a 1/3 caster, you don't have enough slots to be throwing around two spells in a turn, anyway.


Would this include the Hunter’s Mark (if gained from multi-classing) and the expanded benefit of Multiplexed True Strike? How would you handle the benefits of Guidance (also, if received from multi-classing)?

Yes and yes. I guess guidance just wouldn't gain any extra benefit from this, since the caster isn't gaining information. The DM has to make a call there.

Mourne
2018-06-02, 12:56 AM
Way of Invention (Protato) -- Comments

Straight to the feature comments...


Power Fist
At third level, you create an advanced gauntlet weapon called a Power Fist. This weapon is treated as a Monk Weapon for you. When you make a successful attack roll with a Power Fist, you can push an enemy back by 5 feet by spending 1 point of Ki. You also push an enemy back by 5 feet on a natural 20.

Seems weaker than Open Hand Technique which can knock prone or push the target 15 feet (as well as stop reactions).

Voltaic Fist
At sixth level, you have managed to upgrade the Power Fist with an electric charge. Upon a successful attack roll, you may spend 3 Ki Points to deal 1d10 Lightning damage and the target must make a Constitution saving throw or be paralyzed until the start of your next turn.

Paralyzed is probably definitely too much… I’d prefer stunned if you really feel the need to attach a condition (as it doesn’t grant auto crits like paralyzed). Maybe not needed since there’s a condition involved, but maybe progress the damage slightly similar to how Fist of Four Thunders works with allowing more ki to improve Thunderwave.

Jump Jet
At eleventh level, you have crafted a pair of boots or a backpack that allows for efficient flight. By spending 3 Ki points as an action, you gain a fly speed equal to 1.5 times your movement speed until the start of your next turn.

In a lot of ways (due to costing an action + a steep ki cost), this is weaker than Shadow Step (as a comparison) -- I know that fly speed does not equal teleportation, but it felt like a good comparison point to me. I’d think about buffing this one.

Flame Jet
At seventeenth level, you have upgraded the flame of your Jump Jet's flames to harm your enemies. When using your Jump Jet, all creatures within 5 feet of you must make a Dexterity saving throw or take 3d6 Fire damage, or half of that on a failed save.

Is this within 5 feet at any given position (so, as you move through enemies they take damage) or only upon “take off” or “landing”?

sengmeng
2018-06-05, 01:31 PM
I posted the Grammaton Cleric, my very first foray into 5e's rule system, so I am eager for a PEACH, as I'm not even sure I understand the rules I'm breaking. Specifically, I'd like to know if any of the abilities I gave him are redundant or otherwise irrelevant.

Ninja_Prawn
2018-06-05, 02:11 PM
*sucks teeth* yeah, I reckon this is gonna get a bit messy...


Gun Jitsu
At third level, the Grammaton Cleric gains three benefits from the Gun Kata monastic tradition:

He does not have disadvantage on firearm attacks against adjacent opponents.

He may spend a Ki point to grant bonus damage to all firearm attacks (whether firing the weapon or using it as a blunt instrument) equal to his martial arts damage.

He may fire or reload a firearm in place of any unarmed strike.

Replacing an unarmed strike with a gunshot at 3rd level is... way overpowered. Your at-will damage is going from 2d4+6=11 to 4d10+6=28 (assuming 16 Dex and modern firearms as per the DMG).

1 ki point for adding your martial arts damage to all attacks is an improvement on Flurry of Blows in terms of cost-effectiveness (and you don't specify how long the bonus lasts. I assume just for the turn you use it). On its own it might be alright - but I don't see how it fits the theme, really.

And I think the Japanese word you want is jutsu, but I could be wrong there.


Bullet Ballet
At sixth level the Grammaton Cleric gains double his dexterity or wisdom modifier to his AC versus only ranged attacks any round in which he both moves and fires a firearm at an opponent.

This is unclear. Do you mean AC = 10 + Dex + Wis + (Dex or Wis), or do you mean AC = normal AC + 2x(Dex or Wis)? My reading would imply the latter, which is horribly overpowered. 'Opponent' is also poorly defined. Can I declare a rat from this big ol' sack as my opponent? :smalltongue: Also, this conflicts weirdly with the monk's Deflect Missiles ability. Incoming missile attacks aren't really a problem for monks.


Suppress Emotions
At eleventh level, the Grammaton Cleric gains total immunity to any effect that manipulates his emotions, as if under the effects of a calm emotions spell. He may suppress or resume this ability at will as a free action, and it functions even in an antimagic field.

That's not what calm emotions does...:smallconfused: And between the core monk abilities Stillness of Mind and Diamond Soul, you don't really need another thing protecting you from charm/fear.


Perfect Aim
At 17th level, the Grammaton Cleric automatically criticals with any firearm attack that has advantage and both dice roll hits. He has advantage on firearm attacks against adjacent opponents, and gains advantage on all firearm attacks plus the martial arts damage bonus if he pays 1 ki point.

One With the Gun
At 17th level, the Grammaton Cleric's firearm attacks and attacks using a firearm as a blunt instrument always gain his martial arts bonus damage and overcome damage reduction as if they were magical. He can also use his Stunning Strike ability with either type of firearm attack, and a successful strike with a firearm as a blunt instrument grants a free action that can be used to reload or fire that firearm.

Both of these strike me as too strong at first glance. Adding another martial arts die to every attack is +3d10 at level 17; more if you flurry. In comparison, the shadow monk's DPR goes up by 1d10+5 (assuming 20 Dex) at this level, and it costs them their reaction. For Perfect Aim, it'd be much more sensible to just expand the crit range to natural 19s, like what the Champion does.

Oh, and you never specify what the damage die is for a firearm used as a melee weapon.

sengmeng
2018-06-05, 03:14 PM
First off, thank you for being prompt and thorough. I expect to have some difficulty dialing in the balance on an unfamiliar system.


Replacing an unarmed strike with a gunshot at 3rd level is... way overpowered. Your at-will damage is going from 2d4+6=11 to 4d10+6=28 (assuming 16 Dex and modern firearms as per the DMG).
How about reducing it to one each per round and costing a ki point? One unarmed attack can be replaced with a gunshot, one unarmed attack can be replaced with a reload?


1 ki point for adding your martial arts damage to all attacks is an improvement on Flurry of Blows in terms of cost-effectiveness (and you don't specify how long the bonus lasts. I assume just for the turn you use it). On its own it might be alright - but I don't see how it fits the theme, really.
Sorry yes, just the turn. It doesn't fit the the theme of a gun-based martial art? I'm not sure I understand.


And I think the Japanese word you want is jutsu, but I could be wrong there.
I wasn't aware jitsu and jutsu were different, but I googled it and jutsu is technique or art and jitsu is truth... either way is fine with me.


This is unclear. Do you mean AC = 10 + Dex + Wis + (Dex or Wis), or do you mean AC = normal AC + 2x(Dex or Wis)? My reading would imply the latter, which is horribly overpowered. 'Opponent' is also poorly defined. Can I declare a rat from this big ol' sack as my opponent? :smalltongue: Also, this conflicts weirdly with the monk's Deflect Missiles ability. Incoming missile attacks aren't really a problem for monks.
The former; I'll reference the Unarmored Defense ability as the base AC, and give it the same circumstantial restrictions. Yes, it does seem redundant, but am I right in assuming that bullets can't be deflected? Because the Grammaton Clerics in the movie were very adept at fighting opponents who also had guns and body positioning to minimize their target profile for return fire was specifically emphasized. I'll probably actually take out the word opponent all together; if you want to waste a bullet to gain AC, why stop you?


That's not what calm emotions does...:smallconfused: And between the core monk abilities Stillness of Mind and Diamond Soul, you don't really need another thing protecting you from charm/fear.
That's just fluff; it does what calm emotions does. It does seem redundant, but again, it's a reference to the film (emotion suppressing drugs were mandatory in their society). Do you have another suggestion for an ability based on not having emotions and/or extreme focus?


Both of these strike me as too strong at first glance. Adding another martial arts die to every attack is +3d10 at level 17; more if you flurry. In comparison, the shadow monk's DPR goes up by 1d10+5 (assuming 20 Dex) at this level, and it costs them their reaction. For Perfect Aim, it'd be much more sensible to just expand the crit range to natural 19s, like what the Champion does.
Sorry, I wasn't clear there: they don't add another die of martial arts damage, they just get an additional benefit of advantage. I'll be adjusting the wording. I thought about an increased threat range too, but I thought it was more tactically interesting to have to spend resources or arrange to otherwise have advantage.


Oh, and you never specify what the damage die is for a firearm used as a melee weapon.
Idk. The rules should have guidance based on their size, shouldn't they? Should I quote the improvised weapons rules?

Ninja_Prawn
2018-06-05, 03:49 PM
How about reducing it to one each per round and costing a ki point? One unarmed attack can be replaced with a gunshot, one unarmed attack can be replaced with a reload?

Hmm, well... you can kind of already do that. The default rules for firearms say you can reload as a bonus action, which is what one of your unarmed strikes would be. So this formulation wouldn't give you any benefit until you get Extra Attack level 5, which is weird for a 3rd level ability.

I guess I was kind of exaggerating the difference as well - if firearms are monk weapons, your at-will damage starts at 2d10+1d4+6. And if firearms are on the table everyone will be doing more damage than normal... Maybe I was being overly critical before.


am I right in assuming that bullets can't be deflected?

The PHB doesn't say; firearms do not exist as far as it is concerned. I'd have allowed a regular monk to catch bullets, on the basis that a gunshot is a 'ranged weapon attack' so the RAW supports it, and it's just cooler that way.


Do you have another suggestion for an ability based on not having emotions and/or extreme focus?

Nothing comes immediately to mind, but then I'm not familiar with the lore here. Overall this ability isn't a huge problem, it just seemed a little redundant.


Idk. The rules should have guidance based on their size, shouldn't they? Should I quote the improvised weapons rules?

I'm afraid there's no official guidance. It's basically 'improvised weapons are 1d4 unless the DM feels otherwise'. But your intro bit specified that guns are not improvised weapons for monks, so...

sengmeng
2018-06-06, 11:04 AM
I'm not familiar with the lore here.

2002's Equilibrium, starring Christian Bale, Sean Bean, and Taye Diggs. Pure stylistic awesome, and trope namer for Gun Kata. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U02E2sjwlLM)

This will be the best five minutes of your day, I promise. In before "that's what she said."

Jormengand
2018-06-06, 11:10 AM
So, I made a thing. A thing fundamentally cribbed from Pathfinder in basic concept, but a thing nonetheless. Plzrate+comment.

sengmeng
2018-06-06, 11:38 AM
So, I made a thing. A thing fundamentally cribbed from Pathfinder in basic concept, but a thing nonetheless. Plzrate+comment.

I like it in concept; I don't know much about 5e, but this seems to fit very well with the idea of each class having several paths, and is very streamlined. I can't comment on the balance and power levels, but I like each class having a stealthy sneaky option. Any ideas on how to make it synergize with the heavy armor users? Also, I don't see a very strong connection to the theme, but I think I care about that more than other people on all of these forum contests.

Ninja_Prawn
2018-06-06, 12:22 PM
This will be the best five minutes of your day, I promise.

I don't know... today was the first day that I've needed sunscreen this year. :smalltongue:

Jormengand
2018-06-06, 02:42 PM
Any ideas on how to make it synergize with the heavy armor users?

These tend to be the classes with extra attack, so more likely to land at least one hit and therefore sneak attack, and it's not like uncanny dodge doesn't work in armour - in fact, it almost works especially well in armour because you so rarely get hit.


Also, I don't see a very strong connection to the theme, but I think I care about that more than other people on all of these forum contests.

Well, I think of the rogue as the most technology-inclined class, and I want to keep this vaguely usable in an ordinary D&D game.

sengmeng
2018-06-08, 01:21 PM
I made some adjustments to the Grammaton Cleric. Last changes in considering are swapping some normal monk utility abilities for something more investigation-related, since that was their other main skill set besides murdering rooms full of people at a time.

MoleMage
2018-06-11, 05:16 PM
How is everyone feeling? A little under a week left to go!

Anyone want feedback? I have been busy the last couple weeks, as I expected, but I'm happy to chime in over the next couple days.

I'm currently looking at separating Splitting Lens from the Bardic Inspiration drain for College of Optics.

WarrentheHero
2018-06-11, 06:22 PM
Anyone want feedback? I have been busy the last couple weeks, as I expected, but I'm happy to chime in over the next couple days.

I would like some feedback on my Magitech Wizard. I gave it a lot of options but I want to make sure the options make sense and feel right. And I wanted to try my own hand at the Lore/Invention Wizard ability of "change spells" that they keep trying in Unearthed Arcana

MoleMage
2018-06-11, 07:25 PM
I would like some feedback on my Magitech Wizard. I gave it a lot of options but I want to make sure the options make sense and feel right. And I wanted to try my own hand at the Lore/Invention Wizard ability of "change spells" that they keep trying in Unearthed Arcana
My pleasure!

You use "per day" terminology in a couple places. 5e uses "You have X uses of ABILITY. You regain all uses on completing a short/long/short or long rest."

You do have a lot of features, but since the 3rd level ones are all mutually exclusive and the 14th level ones just upgrade the 3rd, you're probably okay (compare Totem Barbarian, which has 3 base and 2 more expanded mutually exclusive features every time they improve). If you're really worried, Channel Gauntlet, Magipistol, and Runescribed Weapon all occupy the same conceptual space, so you could merge or remove some of them. Specific feature notes follow:

Arcane Armor (3rd): Since this armor counts as light armor, do you get to add your Dexterity modifier to it? If so, it's too strong. If not, clarify. The always-prepared Shield spell is a nice touch.
Arcane De-resonator (3rd): The auto-counterspell effect is fairly strong but not objectionably so to me, especially coming before the actual Counterspell spell. It should probably be a full action to activate with its duration and potency. However, the "requires concentration" effect I do object to as being too strong. I would drop the concentration to cast spells of the same school, but keep the disadvantage on concentration for those spells.
Channel Gauntlet (3rd): This is the coolest of the "weapons I have created" group, thematically. I would make the 1d8 plus saving throw default for the gauntlet, and remove the 1d10 option. This is because all your other items have two parts: Primary Usage and Secondary Benefit, except this one where the Secondary Benefit is optional and weakens the Primary Usage.
Magipistol (3rd): The expanded range on attack roll spells is nice and thematic, but it is stronger than a Sorcerer's Metamagic effect Distant Spell for melee spells (by a lot), and the ranged spells which benefit from it are limited without sharpshooter to negate the long range disadvantage. Force damage makes sense for the effect. Overall, probably stronger than but less cool than the Gauntlet.
Runescribed Weapon (3rd): Smite benefit is solid, but scales differently than other smites (which are 2d8 at 1st level, plus 1d8 per level above, up to 5). Since Wizards get bigger spell slots than Paladins or Warlocks, you might want to match the wording on Divine Smite for this effect. When you use the spell to automatically hit with a touch spell, what type of action is that? Do you still deal damage with the weapon? Clearer wording would help here. Something like: "When a spell calls for you to make a melee spell attack, you can make a melee weapon attack with your Runescribed Weapon in place of the spell attack as a bonus action. If you do so, that spell deals additional damage equal to the damage dealt by your Runescribed Weapon. You can use this feature a number of times equal to your Intelligence modifier. You regain all spent uses on completing a long rest." Obviously adjust it to your intended use. Overall, this is cooler than the pistol fluff-wise, and at present probably the strongest of the three weapons (with the crazy smite scaling and no action required to cast a spell for free on a hit). I still think the gauntlet is coolest in theme.
Runescribed Weapon (3rd), again:Should this be a melee weapon? By context it seems like it should, especially as a contrast to Magipistol. Otherwise, I get Heavy Crossbow range with my Touch spells.
Inventive Tools Standard ribbon. Poisoner's kit is odd in the context of the class.
Innovative Casting: Spells being modified when prepared rather than when cast differentiates from metamagic, so that's good. The Area effect would make more sense if it modified the existing given dimensions (most everything uses radius in the stat block, so allowing modification to diameter is strange mechanically). Type is fine, though the save-changing clause I am on the fence about. Echoing is stronger than the Diviner's feature that regains spell slots, even with the action economy lost (since you cast a spell to use it, you can't use that bonus action to also cast a spell anyway, so unless you have a multiclass you basically always get the spell slot with nothing lost). Forceful is a good addition. Most area spells require a save already, so this does increase the dice burden of playing a wizard.
Innovative Casting Drawback:This is a fairly intense drawback, considering wizards are not proficient in Con saves. At best, this happens only 25% of the time (with a 20 Con as a Wizard), and more frequently for most of their existence. This does balance out Echoing spell, but leaves Type and Range somewhere behind the curve relative to the potential penalty.
Arcane Analysis: 5e doesn't have explicit distinctions between Arcane and Divine magic anymore. Allowing automatic spell identification of any spell would not be unreasonable either. Expertise in Arcana and proficiency in Dispel/Counter is the main draw of this feature anyway, especially the latter which is pretty cool.
Arcane Armor (14th): This gives a benefit every other day in practice. Maybe make it a spell that is stored when you regain spell slots after a long rest instead? It's fine in its current state too though.
Arcane De-Resonator (14th): This is where the auto-concentration effect from 3rd could go. Auto-countering all spells of a given school up to your highest spell slot for 1 minute is crazy powerful against any spellcasting enemy, especially since most monsters focus on one or two spell schools.
Channel Gauntlet (14th): Reducing the die size is not as big a hit as it seems (effectively -1 damage per die, BUT you also are guaranteed to do at least half damage, and in an area). I would just make using this feature either A: consume a spell slot and deal damage based on the spell level, or B: usable at full damage a finite number of times per long/short rest.
Magipistol (14th): A rather weak upgrade, especially considering how many ways a wizard at level 14 who selected for spell attack spells has to do different damage types already. I don't have any other ideas right now though.
Runescribed Weapon (14th): AC bonus steps on the toes of Arcane Armor as a defensive option. Extra Force damage makes sense. The Dispel Magic effect is oddly specific for a class feature and also steps on the toes of the Arcane De-Resonator as an anti-magic option. Might make it spells which affect a single target in general instead of just Dispel Magic.


Probably a bit of a wall-o-text for your needs, but I hope that something here was helpful.

sengmeng
2018-06-11, 09:14 PM
How is everyone feeling? A little under a week left to go!

Anyone want feedback? I have been busy the last couple weeks, as I expected, but I'm happy to chime in over the next couple days.

I'm currently looking at separating Splitting Lens from the Bardic Inspiration drain for College of Optics.

I will take all the help I can get. I can't really offer much in return except reactions to fluff as I know just enough about 5e to keep my entry from being gibberish.

Jormengand
2018-06-12, 07:05 AM
I would love some critique, and am totally about to critique everyone else too!

Clockwork Warframe
Augmented strength: This is fine, but honestly a little weird. You can wield versatile weapons in one hand as though you were wielding them in two hands, but you can't wield two-handed weapons in one hand, but you can wield two-handed weapons without the penalty for being small, which you might not be because it's not restricted to small creatures, meaning that a human with this ability is basically going to be wielding a warhammer or longsword because those are basically the only decent weapons for a creature with this ability.
Gadgeteer's Tools: This is a neat ability, and honestly, I'm concerned that the combination of these two abilities might be better than, for example, getting to crit an extra time out of 20 - the above ability, after all, already increases your damage by 1 per attack, as opposed to by maybe 7 per 20 attacks. Then you get an important benefit for grapples and shoves, doubled carry cap, and then you get a whole other class feature! And it's not a bad one; two extra proficiencies, and expertise on anything machine-related. That's pretty good!
Bond Breaker: This probably isn't meant to make it easier to move through your allies' spaces, but by god it does (are you going to argue that a dragonborn paladin isn't a "Physical obstruction"?). It's probably also better than half-proficiency on things you were never trying to be good at and the ability to jump a little further.
Weaponised Exoskeleton: This gives you two options: one which regularly gives you, effectively, at least one extra attack, and one which is rarely usable but freaking awesome (https://orig00.deviantart.net/7b94/f/2010/002/f/3/space_marine_tau_dynamic_entry_by_jetjetex.jpg). Both are probably more useful than a +1 to AC. Technically nothing says you can't sweeping strike with a longbow and royally mess up everyone within 600 feet of you in a particular arc, though it's still pretty nasty if you're just wielding a melee reach weapon. Death from above is actually ridiculously powerful if you get a chance to use it - first, you deal a bunch of unavoidable damage to a creature (no, having to hit with one of the three attacks you'll have by next level doesn't count as "Avoidable"), then it needs to save or be knocked down and take yet another attack. So, for example, suppose your wizard friend decides to cast fly on you. You fly up 60 feet and shoot three longbow shots down at the enemies. Then you do it again. Then you fly up another 60 feet and take out your greatsword. Then, your wizard gets distracted by a nearby butterfly. You land on the enemy, make four greatsword attacks against them, and then hit them with 18d6 points of damage, and you didn't give up any of your actions to actually set up that attack. Or, you just get a chance to leap from a balcony onto someone for a free 10d6 points of damage and extra weapon attack? It just feels like a feature which will either do nothing or wreck encounters.
Defensive Augmentation: Both of these are probably fine, except that I should point out that burst of speed allows you to Death from Above just by virtue of being able to jump high enough. So at this point, you can now jump, force a strength check against falling prone, make your full complement of attacks plus an extra one if you knocked the enemy prone, and deal an extra d6 damage for good measure.
Stabilising Frame: Seems fine.

College of Optics
Honestly, the whole thing gets one piece of critique: it seems pretty weak. For example, it lets you use every single use of bardic inspiration a 15th-level 20-CHA 20-DEX bard owns in order to deal 1d10+2d12+5 points of damage to each of three creatures. That's a fireball, or rather, that's not even a fireball, because a fireball does more damage than that and if it misses, it still actually does some of that damage. Alternatively, you can "Only" use two of your bardic inspirations to... do very slightly more damage than a fighter will do by just attacking with a longbow normally. Honestly, I'd rather just spend my bardic inspiration to do the thing that bardic inspiration does.

The Path to the Singularity
You should probably specify that it's a monk archetype, even though it's kinda obvious.
Man-Machine: I'm a 17th-level singularity monk: what's my unarmed strike die? I know it's obviously meant to be d12, but you need to say that. Also +numbers is kinda boring, no? (No, "Champion did it" is not an excuse.)
More Machine Than Man: Sewer plague causes exhaustion and other effects; do you get advantage on saves against sewer plague? Also, more boring +numbers?
Blinged-out Robo Bits: Rocket fist seems ridiculously impractical, especially since there's a nonzero chance of permanently losing one of your hands every time you use it. General reinforcements is mediocre +numbers but fine, whatever, that's what we expect at this point. The other two are a real contest, though.
I, Robot: Spending a ki point to let a friendly sorcerer heal you for 3d8 or maybe 4d8 damage out of a cantrip is genuinely useful, I guess, or try to stand in the way of lightning bolts. It's a bit obvious, though, that this will mainly be used to let allies deliberately shock you to heal you. It's also not entirely clear, but you might be able to choose whether or not to use it after rolling to see how much damage you would have taken, so the sorcerer can "Take 24" (or "Take 32") on the shocking grasp damage roll, well maybe? I'm a little concerned that this makes you ridiculously hard to kill, because DR 6/- is actually quite nice in 5e.

Way of Invention
Power Fist: This seems like a generally worse version of open hand technique.
Voltaic Fist: Paralysed is similar enough to stunned that I feel you could have got away with the stunning fist reference. 3 ki points to deal 1d10 damage and maybe lock an enemy down for a turn is maybe just about worth doing, but the ability to do it isn't anything to write home about and I'd rather take the free healing from open hand.
Jump Jet: I feel that this shouldn't cost ki points - maybe make it so that it only costs ki points to extend it beyond one round, but trading 3 ki points for 1/600 of a 3rd-level spell slot is a little weak. For comparison, open hand grants you a persisted version of a 1st-level spell, which if 3.5 is to be believed is worth a 7th-level slot.
Flame Jet: Failed save halves the damage? Also, creatures who are adjacent to you when you activate it, or any point during your movement? Also also, it still doesn't do enough to justify using an action and 3 ki points.

Analyst
Multiplexed True Strike: The ability to choose three targets is almost useless on its own. At best, it gives you advantage on splitting fire with two-weapon fighting, which is an odd thing to want to do. More likely, it just acts as a failsafe against marking the wrong target. Unfortunately, this means that it basically works as a feature which reduces the importance of tactical decision-making, which I would argue is a bad thing for a class feature to do from a fun-having perspective: you don't have much of a meaningful choice about who to mark if there are only 3 enemies in range, whereas with a non-multiplexed true strike, you would.
Data-Driven Investments: This class feature is just plain weird and non-synergistic with the rest of the rest of the class. I can't imagine someone who signed up to play a technorogue thinking "Wow, I sure am glad that I can predict the stock market!"
Heads-up Display: This is a little weird. You can cast divinations with 10-minute casting times as bonus actions now? Okay, fine, but here's what throws me a little: initially, you would think that you could use this to bonus-action true strike, and then attack with the benefit in the same round, right? Wrong, and it's because the wording of true strike says "on your next turn". The problem is that there's a significant chance of DMs and players flat-out not noticing that, and allowing someone to true strike and claim the benefit on the same turn.

The other thing that worries me here is that apart from the first round, you can sneak attack every round of combat without having to spend resources or meaningful actions (why, what else were you doing with your bonus action?) facilitating that.
Telepathic Divination: This, of course, is what multiplexed true strike is for. And it's quite powerful. Every single round after the first, you're providing yourself and two allies with advantage on the first attack roll they make, which means that you're sneak attacking every one of those rounds, and, well, it means your allies are more likely to hit. Oh, and also you can actually share the ability to detect magic or thoughts or whatever as well, which is really quite good. It might easily be too good. Certainly, it takes all the difficulty out of sneak attacking... and it's perfect in a party with a couple of extra rogues.

Path of the Monster
Flaws: Let's say your DM is really strict about enforcing these. You can either roll "You have bad dreams" or "You cannot use equipment." A bit of a difference there. Also, you're a barbarian: material possessions (like, say, swords) are kinda important to you.
Mismatched Parts: As a barbarian, you're the least likely member of the party to need to roll hit dice outside of a short rest. This doesn't stack up to the ability to make an extra attack as a bonus action on every turn of your rage or resistance to everything but psychic during your rage. Bear in mind that you're taking a flaw for the privilege of getting to take this instead.
Anguished Strength: Honestly, I prefer the struck-out version, but you could make it rage damage bonus on grapple/shove/overrun instead. This is competing with some pretty bad abilities at this level (I think wolf totem is probably the best, but none of them is amazing) so you might not want to let a barbarian blow all his hit dice on doing [level]d12 extra damage to a boss monster.
Misunderstood Monstrosity: This is just weird, honestly. Also, it's competing with a decent save-or-suck and a divination ritual; could it maybe stand to be a little better?
Electrical Conduit: Something something friendly sorcerer something something shocking grasp something something. Makes Anguished Strength even better, because you're never going to need to use your HD for actual self-healing. Might actually make mismatched parts viable too.

School of Technomancy
Homebrewery formatting sucks. One of your class features has a different name in the text from the table I think?

My head's spinning just trying to read it, but AFAICT timeless body forces you to spend spell slots with no specification of how or when, and technical animation is dreadfully unspecific about what it can actually do.

Wizard School of Magitech
Magitech Invention: The gauntlet is basically just an odd cantrip, the armour basically obviates dexterity, the deresonator is frankly really bad, and the runescribed weapon and the pistol are absolutely insane. Oh, one martial weapon of my choice, and I'm now proficient with it? Sure, longbow. Oh, what's that, I can now make touch attacks from the other end of a room? Sure, why not. Same with the pistol: oh, all my touch spells now have a range of 120/300? That's fine by me!
Innovative Casting: Buffing a spell's range now makes it not work with the runescribed weapon. If you buff a spell's range and wield the pistol, does it double the pistol range or the base spell range? If the latter, does that mean the range goes down if you use the pistol? Self spells becoming touch spells that you can't use on yourself is weird, especially because lightning bolt has a range of self. Speaking of lightning bolt, buffing its area is quite powerful - you end up with a line 110 ft long and 15 ft wide. What about a nice flaming sphere that's 15 feet diameter and burns anyone who steps within 15 feet of that? A wall of fire that's 11 feet thick?

Echoing is simply borked. Regaining an 8th-level spell when you cast a 9th-level spell isn't okay. Worse, that spell can itself have echoing, letting you cast a 7th, cast an 8th recover a 7th, cast a 9th recover an 8th, cast a 7th, cast an 8th recover a 7th, and cast a 7th again. Of course, at lower levels, this "Only" allows for less egregious misuses, like casting 3 fireballs, 6 scorching rays and 10 burning hands (or maybe some spells which aren't all damaging fire spells). Of course, if you're feeling really silly, you can cast nothing but heightened echoing forceful magic missiles, which allows you to cast 1 9th, 2 8th, 4 7th, 6 6th, 9 5th, 12 4th, 15 3rd, 18 2nd and 22 1st. You find a use for knocking people back hundreds of feet.

Forceful has multiple problems: "Effected" means "Created" or "Put into force"; you mean "Affected". More importantly, you can do some funky stuff with it, like create a fire wall which radiates fire towards an actual wall, trapping creatures who are between the two, and if they try to run through the fire to escape, it may very well just shove them back into the death zone. It's also-also not clear what affecting a creature actually means in this context - if I use vampiric touch, does that shove me and the target away from each other, or just them away from me? And what's the point of origin of a touch spell, anyway - it's listed as "Self"; does that mean I'm shoved away from myself? How does that work? I see a lot of DMs and players spending a lot of time they wanna be spending gaming on figuring this out.
Arcane Analysis: Honestly, the ability to counter or dispel spells easily is probably too good, especially when echoing rewards casting multiple copies of the same spell. The ability to recognise any spell you can see being cast is also really useful for counterspells. Not only do you have more spells per day than anyone else, but you can also counter all their high-level spells out of your low-level slots without much issue.
Arcane Armoury: Effects is misspelled in the armour. Magirifle makes you into a ridiculously-good sniper. Runescribed weapon gets a neat buff but none of the others is really worth a second look.

Mech Pilot
Your image makes it hard to read parts of this.
Call Mech: I really assume that it's meant to be (int+level)*4, but as written it's int+(level*4). Either way, it increases your hit points from wizard hit points (3.5 per level) to that one pathfinder PrC that gets more hit points than a barbarian hit points (7.5 per level) This also makes you insanely single-attribute-dependent, and because you can use it twice per short rest, you can probably have it up most of the time. Especially with two modules, this is just too strong.
Mechanical Modules: Hoo boy.
Antimagic Metal: This is fine. Probably doesn't even need to be so strongly level-gated.
Ballistic Armour: You probably already had one of the highest ACs in the party. Now, this just gives you a bit more of an edge.
Cantrip Strike: Dealing 2d10 points of damage with fire bolt is probably one of the best uses of your action... except that you can do better, as will be discussed.
Energy Barrier: You'll probably never use this unless you're certain what the save DC is.
Enhanced Combat Maneuvers: I thought this would be something cool, but it's just extra attack. Good with rocket fists, though!
Explosive Eject: Seeing as if you're using this, something has already gone horribly wrong, you probably don't want to take it. Using your reaction to deal 2d8 damage in an area isn't the worst use of your first-level slot, but you're also likely to hit allies.
Jet Propulsion: Always-on flight is good enough that I'd take this as my 10th-level ability with no contest.
Lightweight Servos: This is quite a powerful ability, but I wouldn't take it because I could be taking rocket fists and ballistic armour.
Rocket Fists: I wanna point something out. The monk, at this level, does d4+dex damage with their fists, and gets one attack as an action and one as a bonus action, with a range of 5 feet. You deal d8+int damage with your fists, and get one attack as an action and one as a bonus action, with a range of 30 feet. The monk gets an extra attack at 5th level, and you're right up after them with one at 6th. The monk's unarmed strike only does as much damage as yours at 11th level, and yours is still better because it's ranged. Oh, and I almost forgot, you're also a full spellcaster. Oh, and you have more hit points than the monk. Is the monk's WIS+DEX higher than your INT+3? No? Congrats, you have a better AC than the monk.
Titan Suit: The shoo-in victor for 14th-level choice. You now have more temporary hit points than most wizards have hit points. Just for show, your fists now deal more damage than the monk's again.
Repair Machinery: If you wait until you're about to die, then suit up, you can use mending on yourself to restore your actual hit points, though you can't restore your temporary hit points. It's not an amazing ability, but that's fine, because your real 6th-level feature is extra attack.
Resilient Mech: Just in case you didn't have enough hit points yet.
Backup Mech: Hey, do you think that gaining 114 temporary hit points and a bunch of other neat stuff is the best use of my action? Because I think it's the best use of my action. There's no way that the fact that you have to spend actions in combat to make full use of this ability is in any way a real balancing factor, ignoring the fact that you can just get in a punch-up with the party druid to get a new mech if you really feel like abusing the feature.

I wrote the above, of course, before realising that if you're in your second mech, you don't have a spare use of the feature, so you get a new one. This basically means that you can have a new mech for each new combat without needing any actions.

Grammaton Cleric
Wait, you're a cleric and also a monk? I know I wrote something which lets you be a cleric and a rogue, but at least it explains what exactly that means. Whatever, it looks like you're just a monk that's called a cleric for some reason.
Gun Fu: This is weird because you lose your other monk weapons at third level - at second level, you can use dexterity for your quarterstaves, but at third, you're forced to use strength. You probably want to have a clause about gaining this tradition at 1st level, unlike other traditions.
Guns Akimbo: You need to specify that you can reload the guns with no free hand, I think.
Gun Jitsu: Probably fine, but you should probably append "For example, you can spend one ki point to perform a flurry of blows, then two more ki points to reload and fire a firearm instead of making two unarmed strikes" to the third ability.
Bullet Ballet: I'd impose disadvantage on ranged attacks instead. 5e doesn't tend to do large flat bonuses to that extent.
Suppress Emotions: All monks can dodge as a bonus action for 1 ki point at level 2 anyway.
Perfect Aim: You should probably be having gun jitsu allow you to add the damage after you know you've hit, so getting advantage on the attack roll doesn't mesh well with that.
One with the Gun: This is probably fine.

Variant Multiclass: Rogue
The worst. Absolutely, positively the worst.

PhoenixPhyre
2018-06-12, 07:25 AM
I would love some critique, and am totally about to critique everyone else too!

Clockwork Warframe
1) Augmented strength: This is fine, but honestly a little weird. You can wield versatile weapons in one hand as though you were wielding them in two hands, but you can't wield two-handed weapons in one hand, but you can wield two-handed weapons without the penalty for being small, which you might not be because it's not restricted to small creatures, meaning that a human with this ability is basically going to be wielding a warhammer or longsword because those are basically the only decent weapons for a creature with this ability.
Gadgeteer's Tools: This is a neat ability, and honestly, I'm concerned that the combination of these two abilities might be better than, for example, getting to crit an extra time out of 20 - the above ability, after all, already increases your damage by 1 per attack, as opposed to by maybe 7 per 20 attacks. Then you get an important benefit for grapples and shoves, doubled carry cap, and then you get a whole other class feature! And it's not a bad one; two extra proficiencies, and expertise on anything machine-related. That's pretty good!
2) Bond Breaker: This probably isn't meant to make it easier to move through your allies' spaces, but by god it does (are you going to argue that a dragonborn paladin isn't a "Physical obstruction"?). It's probably also better than half-proficiency on things you were never trying to be good at and the ability to jump a little further.
4) Weaponised Exoskeleton: This gives you two options: one which regularly gives you, effectively, at least one extra attack, and one which is rarely usable but freaking awesome (https://orig00.deviantart.net/7b94/f/2010/002/f/3/space_marine_tau_dynamic_entry_by_jetjetex.jpg). Both are probably more useful than a +1 to AC. Technically nothing says you can't sweeping strike with a longbow and royally mess up everyone within 600 feet of you in a particular arc, though it's still pretty nasty if you're just wielding a melee reach weapon. Death from above is actually ridiculously powerful if you get a chance to use it - first, you deal a bunch of unavoidable damage to a creature (no, having to hit with one of the three attacks you'll have by next level doesn't count as "Avoidable"), then it needs to save or be knocked down and take yet another attack. So, for example, suppose your wizard friend decides to cast fly on you. You fly up 60 feet and shoot three longbow shots down at the enemies. Then you do it again. Then you fly up another 60 feet and take out your greatsword. Then, your wizard gets distracted by a nearby butterfly. You land on the enemy, make four greatsword attacks against them, and then hit them with 18d6 points of damage, and you didn't give up any of your actions to actually set up that attack. Or, you just get a chance to leap from a balcony onto someone for a free 10d6 points of damage and extra weapon attack? It just feels like a feature which will either do nothing or wreck encounters.
Defensive Augmentation: Both of these are probably fine, except that I should point out that burst of speed allows you to Death from Above just by virtue of being able to jump high enough. So at this point, you can now jump, force a strength check against falling prone, make your full complement of attacks plus an extra one if you knocked the enemy prone, and deal an extra d6 damage for good measure.
Stabilising Frame: Seems fine.


Thanks for the feedback. I've made the following changes in response:

1) 3rd level features now only give grapple bonuses, carrying capacity bonuses, and a QoL upgrade for small characters (no restriction on Heavy weapons), plus the two proficiencies. It's better than the champion's one, but that one's notoriously weak.

2) Reworded the effect to specialize in ignoring things that would take a STR save to avoid getting entangled (web, plant growth, etc).

3) Added "with a melee weapon" to sweeping strikes. I may have it either deal less damage or require a full action on its own (as opposed to replacing an attack). Removed the "prone and extra attack" part of leaping attack". Now it just pushes and transfers falling damage. And yes, it's supposed to synergize with the later feature. I love the "death from above" image, and it encourages people to use the terrain (and DMs to put terrain in there).

I'll look at yours later today and give feedback.

PhoenixPhyre
2018-06-12, 09:06 AM
Here's the promised feedback on the Variant Multiclass: Rogue:

Initial impressions: I'm not sure how it fits the theme, really. While rogues are the most skilled, that may not have anything to do with technology. It certainly doesn't give me a visual of using tech in any way.

It's also hellaciously complicated (with different level breaks by base class), and the benefits (and drawbacks) vary incredibly widely by base class.

And it shatters some of the classes thematically--A paladin with out an Oath isn't a paladin. A cleric without a Domain is missing most of what makes them different.

Specific features

Arcane Trickery
Paladins don't get spell-casting until level 2, and don't get oath spells till level 3. So giving them Arcane Trickery at level 1 is rather meaningless. There are also rangers who get bonus spells (the XGtE archetypes).
Clerics: These do very little to complement the play-style of anyone who wasn't going to go Trickery (and in fact overlap significantly with the Trickery Domain spells). Cost: Enormous/Moderate. Benefit: Minimal.
Paladins: Also very little benefit, at large costs (including enormous thematic costs).
Warlocks: mixed, much more benefits here (due to the nature of the warlock's bonus spells)

Bonus Skill
This is weak for a starting feature. Most starting features (especially those at level 3) provide a major combat benefit. This...is an extra skill, proficient but not expertise.

Thieves' Cant
Pure ribbon.

Sneak Attack
Useless for standard barbarians, clerics, most fighters, paladins, sorcerers, and wizards (not using finesse weapons as a general rule). 1d6 / 3 levels is functionally meaningless.

Uncanny Dodge
A good feature that works for most classes. Comes on line real late for sorcerers and paladins though.

Reliable talent
Only monks and rangers have any hope of ever seeing this, despite how good it is. Clerics...level 17, not so much At that level, they're normally getting

Knowledge: Massive benefit for RP-centric campaigns that can't be replicated by any other feature.
Life: auto-maximized healing spells.
Light: impose disadvantage on saves vs fire or radiant damage spells.
Nature: channel divinity becomes a pseudo dominate for beasts and plants
Tempest: perpetual flying speed outside
Trickery: Four duplicates from channel divinity
War: resistance to non-magical bludgeoning/piercing/slashing (which is to most of the MM, to be honest).

Blindsense
Replacing a paladin's capstone with this is a sad, sad thing. Or a fighter's capstone. Only the ones that get it at 14 will find it meaningful at all.

Final thoughts
Not impressed. The benefits are super uneven. Sorry if I seem harsh, but I'm not sure how to salvage this. It would benefit from being a focused archetype for a single base class (maybe a barbarian who gets roguish features, keying off rage to do DEX-focused things instead of brute force? Or a ranger?)

MoleMage
2018-06-12, 09:18 AM
I would love some critique, and am totally about to critique everyone else too!

College of Optics
Honestly, the whole thing gets one piece of critique: it seems pretty weak. For example, it lets you use every single use of bardic inspiration a 15th-level 20-CHA 20-DEX bard owns in order to deal 1d10+2d12+5 points of damage to each of three creatures. That's a fireball, or rather, that's not even a fireball, because a fireball does more damage than that and if it misses, it still actually does some of that damage. Alternatively, you can "Only" use two of your bardic inspirations to... do very slightly more damage than a fighter will do by just attacking with a longbow normally. Honestly, I'd rather just spend my bardic inspiration to do the thing that bardic inspiration does.


I think I'll swap the +Dex to damage for +Cha on the laser array, and move Focusing Lens to a smite-style mechanic using spell slots instead of BI, then leave splitting lens as BI.

As for Variant Multiclass Rogue, I really like this as a thing, but I don't feel like 5e Rogues have as strong a "technology" identity as in older editions. They lost all of their trap-specific or lock-specific features, leaving them with Thieves' Tools and the odd subclass feature (which I agree with your decision to leave Variant Multiclass Rogue at core features only). This would have been better for Something Borrowed.


I will take all the help I can get. I can't really offer much in return except reactions to fluff as I know just enough about 5e to keep my entry from being gibberish.

In general, the wording on many features is difficult to follow. When writing a feature out, look for similar features (since a lot of your subclass involves extending monk features to also apply to guns, you can look at monk, but for bonus damage, you can look at Rage, Sneak Attack, Divine Smite, and Hunter Ranger's Giant Slayer, for extra attacks you can look at baseline two-weapon fighting, Monk's Martial Arts and Flurry of Blows, Fighter's Action Surge, and Berserker's Frenzy, etc.). You don't have to use the same mechanics (in fact I recommend adjusting them to fit your intent), but reading those similar-concept-space features will help with clarity.

You also might want to consider the action economy of 5e. Normally, number of attacks is fairly strictly bound. Allowing extra attacks does exist in core 5e, but typically they A: are part of some non-attacking option (can make a melee attack when you cast a cantrip/spell, can make an attack when you command your beast to attack, and/or B: use up your bonus action for that round. Expending resources allows you to stretch these rules more. I gave more detail in Guns Akimbo and One With the Gun below. I'm not an expert on action economy but if you search around there's some guides (mostly about breaking it, but those are helpful too as they tell you the sorts of things you should not give your class to prevent breaking), or maybe someone else here can give a more detailed breakdown.


Gun Fu: As a general rule, don't take away class features in a subclass. Allowing Grammaton Clerics to keep their normal monk weapons isn't going to break the subclass, and all their features improving guns means they'll want to be using them anyway. The damage specifications of guns-as-blunt-instruments is nice, but monks can use Martial Arts in place of normal weapon dice anyway, meaning that until level 11 I only care about the versatile 1d8 damage and after 11 it's all the same.
Guns Akimbo: This is both way too strong assuming reliable advantage (players will find a way) and also oddly worded for a 5e feature. Something more like "When you take the Attack action and are wielding a pistol in each hand, you can make an extra attack with a pistol, but this attack is at Disadvantage. You can make attacks with pistols held in either hand interchangeably." would be more in the normal design of 5e. Also, pursuant to the general rule above, this should probably just be a feature gained at 6 instead of replacing Deflect Arrows (you can give two features at 6).
Gun Jitsu (part 1):Balanced and fitting. No further comment on this.
Gun Jitsu (part 2):Needs clearer wording. Do you spend the ki before each attack? As a bonus action modifying all attacks that round? As a part of rolling damage, like Divine Smite? The first is probably too expensive to be worth using normally (especially in light of part 3), the second would be an exact duplicate of a Way of the Kensei feature, and the third would be somewhere in between "very expensive" and "a good way to dump excess Ki without using actions".
Gun Jitsu (part 3):Spending Ki to reload is excessive, given that you already are giving up an attack. And you can already make firearm attacks for both of your normal attacks on your turn (once you get Extra Attack), so this feature only applies to unarmed strikes gained as bonus actions or made as opportunity attacks. I would rewrite it as a specific bonus action this subclass gets instead, and attach an appropriate cost. Something like "When you take the Attack action on your turn to attack with a monk weapon or unarmed strike, you can spend 1 ki point to make a firearm attack as a bonus action." Adjust the cost and number of bonus action attacks according to your intent. Look at Flurry of Blows and Martial Arts for wording. This is also very strong with the current version of Guns Akimbo (allowing for 3 ki points 8 firearm attacks at level 5 and up).
Bullet Ballet:Bounded accuracy and AC are essential components of 5e balance. This feature allows a monk with 18 Dex and 16 Wis (roughly what I would expect when the feature is gained) to push their AC to 21 every turn with an easily-met condition. 21 is the normal maximum AC for a fighter without magic items. It needs to be dialed back or made more difficult to trigger (possibly requiring an action type or Ki point expenditure to limit its per-combat usage). Alternately, you could replace it with an active defense or Deflect Arrows improvement.
Suppress Emotions: Monks already get bonus action dodge at level 2 for 1 ki. You need a new feature here. You could do a self-targetted Dispel Magic, a much weaker version of Mind Blank (most of its power is in the duration and the wish clause, so if you gut both of those you can probably drop to something 5th or 6th level equivalent), or something that negates Advantage and Disadvantage temporarily to fit the emotions theme.
17th level features:Tradition calls for a name for this group of multiple-choice features in addition to names for each option.
Perfect Aim: Adding the extra ways to get advantage is too much. As I noted in Guns Akimbo, if you strongly incentivise Advantage, players will find ways to gain it, and that is 10 times as true at level 17 (in one more level, Monks can get Greater Invisibility on themselves, not to mention all the spells their party will have access to). I would instead improve the critical hits themselves in a small way, regardless of how they were triggered, and remove both of the free advantage effects from this feature. I do like the new crit condition.
One With the Gun: Overcoming damage as if magical should have gone back at level 6 (when monks get it for unarmed attacks) if you want to put it in the subclass; leaving it out is also okay (they can still get magical guns the old-fashioned way, and probably have by level 17). Free Actions aren't a thing in 5e (just Action and Bonus Action), but you can say that "successful attacks with a firearm as a blunt instrument allow you to reload or fire that firearm without taking an action" or something similar. The free shot is very strong (effectively doubling the number of attacks you can make against an adjacent target), the free reload is not. I'm not sure what you mean by always gaining the martial arts bonus damage. Functionally at level 17 that would mean doubling all weapon dice, since baseline monk allows you to substitute martial arts damage for normal weapon damage when using a monk weapon (which all firearms are, per Gun Fu). Unless you meant you can use Martial Arts in place of normal firearm damage, which is redundant. Stunning Strike with firearms is a nice boost though, and gives this ranged monk back a normally melee-only feature. This feature is all over the place with its bonuses. I would pick one of the things it does and refine it while dropping the others; you can the dropped features into more options for level 17 if you want to keep them on the subclass.

Jormengand
2018-06-12, 12:32 PM
As far as the connection to the theme goes: I've always liked the idea of the rogue as a specialist. Their proficiency with thieves tools also means that they are activating and/or deactivating some of the most complicated technology that exists in a D&D setting. Given that I'd really rather not have mechs trampling things and firing machineguns or whatever, rogues are basically the most tech-oriented thing you're gonna get.

Don't know why I put trickery at level 1 for paladins. Fix'd.

Bonus skill I should probably give another one of, and then we can shove SA earlier and give some expertise later.

Wow, I totally missed that sneak attack had to be with a finesse or ranged weapon. That sorta blows. OTOH, there's nothing stopping you from fighting rapier-and-shield or even whip-and-shield and still using the whip as a strength weapon, while also claiming sneak attack. Essentially, you are losing out on some damage compared to if you were using a longsword (a whole two points of it) while also getting reach and one of your attacks per round does 1d6/3 levels extra damage. I guess I oughta make it a little bit more damage, but I don't really want people getting full-progression SA.

As far as casters and SA are concerned, I'm figuring that true strike and a crossbow will give them a decent chance to land an SA.

I've messed around with cleric a little bit to change when most things come online and give it a channel divinity option, and make it suck less at level 17.

I've also given some examples of how to roleplay, and mechanically play, some of the VMC rogue combinations, which will probably help.

MoleMage
2018-06-12, 01:00 PM
As far as the connection to the theme goes: I've always liked the idea of the rogue as a specialist. Their proficiency with thieves tools also means that they are activating and/or deactivating some of the most complicated technology that exists in a D&D setting. Given that I'd really rather not have mechs trampling things and firing machineguns or whatever, rogues are basically the most tech-oriented thing you're gonna get.

Don't know why I put trickery at level 1 for paladins. Fix'd.

Bonus skill I should probably give another one of, and then we can shove SA earlier and give some expertise later.

Wow, I totally missed that sneak attack had to be with a finesse or ranged weapon. That sorta blows. OTOH, there's nothing stopping you from fighting rapier-and-shield or even whip-and-shield and still using the whip as a strength weapon, while also claiming sneak attack. Essentially, you are losing out on some damage compared to if you were using a longsword (a whole two points of it) while also getting reach and one of your attacks per round does 1d6/3 levels extra damage. I guess I oughta make it a little bit more damage, but I don't really want people getting full-progression SA.

As far as casters and SA are concerned, I'm figuring that true strike and a crossbow will give them a decent chance to land an SA.

I've messed around with cleric a little bit to change when most things come online and give it a channel divinity option, and make it suck less at level 17.

I've also given some examples of how to roleplay, and mechanically play, some of the VMC rogue combinations, which will probably help.

Paladin should also receive 2 Channel Divinity options per subclass, received at level 3.

EDIT: You might want to add a note to Marauder that stacking Expertise on Athletics with Rage makes you hands-down the best user of Shove and Grapple.

sengmeng
2018-06-12, 01:44 PM
Ok, I've adjusted the Grammaton Cleric a bit more. I guess he does what he's supposed to: seamlessly switch between firing and pistol whipping while dodging incoming fire.

Jormengand
2018-06-12, 04:59 PM
Paladin VMC rogue can now use sacred assassination, and gets an extra channel ability. Also done tactics write-ups for hedge witch (drd/Vrog), thug (fgt/Vrog), ninja (mnk/Vrog), blackguard (pal/Vrog), and slayer (rgr/Vrog).

This is mostly just roleplay and tactics advice, but it does provide a few rules clarifications/rulings, namely:

Hedge Witch: Natural weapons which are based on dexterity are finesse weapons so you can sneak attack with them.
Thug (and some others): You can wield a 1-handed weapon in two hands, which doesn't do anything useful on its own. Great weapon fighting style does let you re-roll sneak attack dice.
Ninja: Because sneak attack is per turn, not per round, you can sneak attack on your turn, sneak attack via deflect arrows as a reaction, and then sneak attack the turn after.
Blackguard: There's now a list of twelve tenetis, of which you can choose any five.
Slayer: That thing about attacking from hiding giving advantage? Yeah, that's actually a rule now, not a "DM might let you if you ask nicely."

WarrentheHero
2018-06-13, 01:55 AM
The School of Magitech has been updated.
Changelog:
-Clarified that the three weaponlike Magitech Inventions are in fact magic weapons.
-Added a level restriction to Arcane De-Resonator for the Concentration effect.
-Changed Channel Gauntlet to be 1d8 + push by default.
-Made Runescribed Weapon clearer on how it works. You cast target spells through the weapon, is the main thing. It works for ranged weapons, and for touch attacks. Yes, giving Longbows was intentional. I just word'd poorly the first time.
-Innovative Casting's Area now is only 5 feet and makes more sense. Forceful is more clear on how it works.
-Echoing doesn't make Wizards spellcasting gods now. Only works for 1st and 2nd level spells, and can only be used INT MOD times per day
-Arcane Armor's upgrade now uses normal timing instead of an Action, so you can cast Shield more. I think that's actually the only application, but hey, it's there. It also gets a free 2nd-level spell instead of requiring a spell slot. MoleMage was right in that it only offered a benefit every other day.
-Channel Gauntlet's upgrade is updated to reflect its baseline changes.
-Magipistol's upgrade felt a little weak, only getting some damage type options, so I made it +1.

As an explanation/FAQ of some of the features, here's theses. You don't need to read these to understand the class or its motivations, but if you have a specific complaint, question, or inquiry, it will probably be in this feature-by-feature breakdown:

Arcane Armor: The 'defense' option. Since it provides a calculation for your AC instead of a flat bonus, use the full calculation. That is to say, your AC is 11+INT in the armor. No Dex. For reference on the 'calculation' idea, look at Barb and Monk Unarmored Defenses, which don't stack, because they're both calculations. I'm strongly considering converting this from 11+Int to an always-on Mage Armor spell or similar.
Arcane De-Resonator: A really powerful anti-mage tool. But its balanced by effecting all spells, not just enemy. So if you shut down Conjuration to keep your enemy from Dimension Dooring away, you're also stuck there.
Channel Gauntlet: Magic Iron Man. That is all.
Magipistol: This arguably the most powerful Invention, as it is a straight upgrade to literally every ranged spell attack on the Wizard list, if not on all lists. I don't know about EE or XGtE spells; I use Wizards' own design philosophy of "balance against PHB, not all books." In addition to a direct upgrade, it also offers a cantrip made with the only unresisted damage type in the game (I know there's exceptions.)
Runescribed Weapon: I (obviously) had a hard time articulating in 5e's rules-syntax the idea of "cast spells through the weapon." It might still be unclear. Granting Wizards one proficiency with a weapon isn't a huge deal, and they can only cast spells through it INT MOD times per day. My only concern is that it does out-range the gun with Longbows, but the gun isn't limited, so I think that's on balance. Its bonus damage does scale harder than a Paladin, but it scales significantly worse when you compare what else you could do with the spell slot. For comparison, Chromatic Orb is 3d8. With a Runescribed Longbow, you do the same, but use Dex, which is probably worse than your Int. Jump to 3rd level and compare to Fireball, where it has a lower minimum, same maximum, lower average, and only effects one creature. You can burst one creature easily, but the opportunity cost can be pretty high.

Innovative Casting: One of the big problems with WotC's attempts at "alter spell formula" wizards I think is they usually try to make that happen as you cast the spell, which doesn't really make sense from a lore-perspective, considering how complex and precise arcane magic is supposed to be. It made Wizards too situationally powerful, being to target a creature's weak saves or damage types on the fly. Making the change only available when you prep spells circumvents this.
Range Innovation: Can cause weird interactions, I suppose. Mostly pretty straightforward. Making Self spells not-self is a teamwork boost, and if you want to cast a spell on yourself, don't Innovate it. Jormungand offered the example of Lightning Bolt getting weird, but the solution is simple: Don't Innovate Lightning Bolt with range. Or if you do, the origin is now on a creature you touch, and the line starts from them. You're already hiding behind your Fighter, right?
Area Innovation: Bigger spells, plain and simple. Yes, it makes Lightning Bolt wider. I think that's cool. Makes the worse-Fireball somewhat better.
Type Innovation: I've gone back and forth a lot on whether or not to alter the save based on damage type. What makes that more difficult is that while in general, the damage types in 5e correspond to the listed saves, there's a bit of variation there; some Cold effects are Dex, some Fire effects are Con, and Thunder is Strength sometimes. But I think it just makes more sense from a fiction perspective to do it this way. Imagine making a Con save to resist Lightning from a type-changed Thunderwave. It doesn't feel right. And because you Innovate durinjg spell prep, you can't target a monster's weak save. Just like all spell prep, you have to guess what creatures you'll be up against and which spells and saves are best for that situation.
Echoing Innovation: Ooooh boy I don't know what I was thinking on the first pass of this feature. That would be unreasonable as a 20-th level feature, let alone 6th! The thematic idea is you alter spells to be more 'efficient', so you have more 'magical energy/stamina' with which to cast spells. I think the new version is much better. Still strong, but better. In either case though, remember that you can only Innovate 1/2 INT MOD spells, so to get the most out of Echoing, you have to Innovate a spell you plan on using a lot.
Forceful Innovation: Just push people, is the idea. Jormangand brought up the idea of it being funky, for example, using it on Wall of Fire to trap people. Sure! Finding creative uses for these features is exactly what you're supposed to do. You're supposed to Innovate. Not just the spells, but the way you use the spells as a result of the changes. My favorite idea for this is to use Hold Person to blast people away and then paralyze them. Pretty much makes you a Jedi. Or maybe more appropriately, a Sith.
Innovation Drawback: This one can be a little intense for duration spells, but even if you fail you don't have to lose the spell; you can choose to take damage isntead. As much I just defended all of my features as "they're not as powerful as you think I swear", I do recognize that Innovative Casting is powerful, and this is the limiter for that. DC 10 is the baseline Concentration Save, and most spells you'd want to Innovate are Instantaneous, so it's only one save.

Arcane Analysis: This combo's less ludicrously with Echoing Innovation now. If you're a Wizard that understand magic enough to alter and innovate on it, it sort of makes sense to me that you can see the structural weaknesses in other people's spells and exploit them. Hence the Proficiency in Counterspel/Dispel

Arcane Armor Upgrade: I considered just making them a walking tank by upping the AC, but a feature that is just "you number harder than you did before" isn't really interesting or fun. So I thought, "If you're magically powering the armor to get your AC bonus, then surely it can store magic, right?". And from there, spell storing was the next natural step. But it's armor, so it's also only natural that it's only a spell that targets you or originates with you.
Arcane De-Resonator Upgrade: Like its lesser counterpart, the De-Resonator upgrade can completely shutdown some casters, but just as before, the device interferes with allied spellcasting, so you have to really communicate with your team. Remember that healing spells are Evocation, so you can't shut down the BBEG's Chain Lightning's without slowing party healing!
Channel Gauntlet Upgrade: Iron Man harder. It's a smaller upgrade compared to others, as creatures are rarely in a line, but the range increase is nice. Might make it +1.
Magipistol Upgrade: Just a classic elemental touch. As I said in the changelog, I felt it was too weak so I made it 5% better.
Magirifle Upgrade: Be literal spell sniper! Honestly, I might boost the range even further, because the 60-ft limitation is a huge debuff when you consider that most combats take place in maybe a 120ft area, but the real fighting is even closer. Still, being able to chip away at opponents over long range can make your combat much easier for your allies.
Runescribed Weapon Upgrade: The one that gets the most amount of changes. Here's why: If you've opted for a melee Runescribed Weapon, you're, well, in melee, maybe using Strength which is traditionally a poor Wiz stat. But in melee, you have to survive, and thus, defense. Extra damage is the main feature here in my mind. It applies all the time, not just when you Smite or cast with it. The Dispel feature is oddly specific, and I'll admit, is very much inspired by Matthew Mercer's Magician's Judge weapon in Critical Role campaign 2. I think it's so cool! And it only work in this way against one creature, not a general effect, and you have to hit, so it's not as universally useful as it might seem.

PhoenixPhyre
2018-06-14, 01:38 PM
@Ivellius, feedback on the Circle of Progress

General
If you're stuck with CR 1 (max) creatures, but all your abilities depend on being in wild shape form...that's not going to scale well. Maybe give some sort of scaling?

2nd level: Transformed Shape
A few comments:
* You don't make death saving throws in wild-shape form because hitting 0 dumps you out of form immediately. So proficiency with them while in wild-shape form (Reinforced body) doesn't mean much.
* A single weapon attack isn't much. That's averaging at best 1d10 + 4 ~ 10 DPR. The average DPR for CR 1 creatures is 13, with a standard deviation of 4.4. So you're at best 1 standard deviation below the norm. And at 8th level, your fighter buddy is doing 2d6+5 x 2, day in and day out, more than double yours. Instead, maybe your weapon increases the dice rolled for the attacks by one die? Or something like that?

6th level: Armament Reshaping
* A wolf (a decent form you can have at that level) has a +1 natural armor bonus. So if instead you have studded leather you gain a net +1 AC (to a grand total of 14). +2 total if you take reinforced body. That's quite weak, especially if you're limited to the base druid's forms.

10th level: Reconstructed Shape
* Since the benefits are so weak, I'd remove the "alternatively" clause and say that they get all the level 2 features and one of the level 10 features.
* Wording (adrenal injection): "choose to expend 1 Hit Die" to do what? Add a phrase "to heal yourself"

14th level: Forcefield Projection
* This is fine, although it needs a recharge mechanic. Once ever? Once per use of wild shape? Once per long/short rest?

Ivellius
2018-06-14, 03:19 PM
@Ivellius, feedback on the Circle of Progress

Thanks for the feedback. Quick and hit a few things I need to change.

Wasn't thinking at all about not making death saves while shaped. Changing that quite quickly and buffing the other features correspondingly. With the new weapon incorporation, I can probably add language about it working with Multiattack as part of the intention, but making it stronger would make it probably too good for the level you get it. It does, for example, let you morph a camel and upgrade your damage to 1d10+3 rather than 1d4. Part of the idea, though, is that no matter what you morph you always can have something (so recon frog with a weapon, for instance), and Armament Reshaping helps it scale some thanks to incorporating magical abilities.

Having said all of that, it might just need some restructuring within the first three class benefits as a group. I think another second-level feature it should have is one removing the prohibition on metal armors, given the fluff. Heavy armor proficiency is probably too much, but better armor would be a useful boost to Armament Reshaping as well.

For bookkeeping reasons, I think buffing Reconstructed Shape (and/or Transformed Shape) rather than dumping all of it onto a character makes more sense. For now, I've changed the language on Reconstructed Shape to just add one of its bonuses to Transformed Shape. I think the language on Adrenal Injection is sufficient but added "to regain health." Similarly, Forcefield Projection is once per Wild Shape (changed the wording very slightly).

Even with changes, I think it's probably a bit short of where it could be. Unfortunately, given the concept of "Transformers Wild Shape," it will always be compared to the Moon Druid, which is probably too good for what it does.

MoleMage
2018-06-18, 01:49 PM
Voting thread is UP! Submissions may not be edited further at this time (technically as of midnight last night).

Voting Link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?561693-D-amp-D-5e-Subclass-Contest-I-Voting-Thread&p=23159734#post23159734)

PhoenixPhyre
2018-06-18, 01:53 PM
Voting thread is UP! Submissions may not be edited further at this time (technically as of midnight last night).

Voting Link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?561693-D-amp-D-5e-Subclass-Contest-I-Voting-Thread&p=23159734#post23159734)

NOte: all the build links in the voting thread seem to go to the same post (my sub-class).

MoleMage
2018-06-18, 02:02 PM
NOte: all the build links in the voting thread seem to go to the same post (my sub-class).

Caught that as soon as I linked it here and it has been fixed.

PhoenixPhyre
2018-06-18, 02:31 PM
Caught that as soon as I linked it here and it has been fixed.

I must have opened it right as you were fixing it. All good. I'm in the process of compiling my votes.

MoleMage
2018-07-01, 10:16 AM
Last day for voting! I will probably be asleep when the official end time comes around but come the morning I'm tallying up the votes (and double checking my tallies).

MoleMage
2018-07-02, 04:52 PM
Votes are tallied, and winners declared!

I forgot to mention it in the first post, but I modeled the voting values off of previous contests, so a 1st place vote was worth 3 points, a 2nd worth 2, and a 3rd worth 1. I think most of you probably guessed as much but I wanted to be clear here how these totals were reached.

In 3rd place, we have the Martial Archetype for fighters, the Clockwork Warframe! Whether you be a gnome, a dwarf, or a particularly technologically minded half-orc, put on your power armor and wrestle something large.

In 2nd place, we have the Bardic College, the College of Optics! For when you really need to put on a laser rock show, and also for when you need to laser some bad guys. Or just look at things far away.

And our winner of the first forum subclass contest, the Druid Circle of Progress! Turn into a cyborg wolf! Incorporate your magic weapons and armor into wild shape forms! Eschew traditional lore expectations by embracing the wild and the artificial at the same time! Wear metal armor!

Congrats to Ivellius!

Thanks to everyone who submitted entries for this contest. We had a strong first turnout and I hope we can keep up momentum moving forward. Our next theme, with two votes (I will provide a shorter list for the next voting thread to hopefully get more consensus) is It Came From Beyond! Submission thread will go up in a few minutes after I edit the discussion thread's first post and write a new intro for the new theme.

Votes are tallied.

For those of you with new idea submissions, they have been edited into the first post with more contest-appropriate names (IE: something that sounds like a bad movie tagline). The only one I was unclear on was Gryphonus's suggestion Points for Everybody, which I took a stab in the dark at what was meant for. Some of these ideas could probably be folded together (Fate and Luck could be one theme, and New Mechanics/Alternate Mechanics could also be one theme), but I've left them separate for now. If you have a different name suggestion or I interpreted your suggestion wrong, let me know.

For the next voting thread, I will roll randomly from the list of total suggestions three times (five times if we get at least 10 entries this round), and we will vote on the next theme from that smaller list. If you have new suggestions, please present them in the chat thread here and I'll add them to the list.

Oh, and the new contest is up. The winner with two votes was It Came From Beyond, the theme of aliens, space, and Outer Realms. Link's on the first post, and also right here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?562876-D-amp-D-5e-Subclass-Contest-II-It-Came-From-Beyond!&p=23194072#post23194072).

Ivellius
2018-07-03, 12:33 AM
Thanks to all the voters who thought being a Transformer would be cool. Given that the new theme was also the one for which I voted, I'll have to think of something to enter.

Blackbando, you are quite on top of things. Minor suggestion on your patron: I would add a sentence on Riftwalk about the teleportation not provoking opportunity attacks. Yes, teleportation generally doesn't / should be assumed, but I think 5e usually spells that out explicitly.

I will also confess that I too have used League of Legends characters to make subclasses after. Most of them have been warlock patrons--I currently have a Warlock using a "Leviathan" patron based on Nautilus.

Thanatos 51-50
2018-07-03, 03:44 AM
A question re: the rules before I throw my hat in the ring for Contest II:

I can't have the submission posted anywhere else, does that mean the subclass can't have its own thread here and can only exist in the contest thread?

MoleMage
2018-07-03, 03:55 AM
A question re: the rules before I throw my hat in the ring for Contest II:

I can't have the submission posted anywhere else, does that mean the subclass can't have its own thread here and can only exist in the contest thread?

As of now, yes. I know that for some contests a separate thread on the forums for your entry is the norm, but subclasses were small enough that I thought containing them to one thread would be alright.

Blackbando
2018-07-03, 12:27 PM
Blackbando, you are quite on top of things. Minor suggestion on your patron: I would add a sentence on Riftwalk about the teleportation not provoking opportunity attacks. Yes, teleportation generally doesn't / should be assumed, but I think 5e usually spells that out explicitly.
Ah, excellent point. I'm not entirely sure if it's spelled out explicitly, but, certainly no harm in adding a few words to clarify. I've made the suggested edit.


I will also confess that I too have used League of Legends characters to make subclasses after. Most of them have been warlock patrons--I currently have a Warlock using a "Leviathan" patron based on Nautilus.

Pop culture in general (mainly videogames) is where I get the inspiration for most of my content, and for some reason, League of Legends pops up a lot. I don't even play the game anymore, but yet it always has concepts and mechanics that seem fun to use in D&D, for me.

Jormengand
2018-07-03, 12:35 PM
Obviously, VMC warlock would fit well for this contest, and I'm very tempted to do it. :smalltongue:

Ninja_Prawn
2018-07-03, 12:51 PM
I might be getting an idea, too. I don't know if it'll turn out any good though...

Ivellius
2018-07-03, 01:25 PM
Pop culture in general (mainly videogames) is where I get the inspiration for most of my content, and for some reason, League of Legends pops up a lot. I don't even play the game anymore, but yet it always has concepts and mechanics that seem fun to use in D&D, for me.

In my opinion, LoL works really well for inspiration here because you get 4-5 abilities that are all generally pretty distinct as well as thematic, and so you have some easy cohesion built right in. They're also often simple enough that you can implement them in 5e without too much trouble.


I might be getting an idea, too. I don't know if it'll turn out any good though...

While this might be of little comfort, I think your Analyst was one of the best-balanced and probably most usable of anything anyone produced in the last contest. I didn't vote for it primarily because I didn't feel it quite hit the theme as well as some others, and it also seemed to require a little less design work than others, considering part of it was a 1/3 caster. That is, a lot of the option's strength is derived from spells so the unique features are somewhat easier to design (in my opinion). Having said that, in terms of creating an Arcane Trickster analogue centered on True Strike like the AT centers on Mage Hand? It was really fantastic. If someone wanted "divination rogue" I'd be all for them using that.

So all of that to say: if you're getting an idea, I'm sure you can execute on it quite well.

Thanatos 51-50
2018-07-03, 08:38 PM
As of now, yes. I know that for some contests a separate thread on the forums for your entry is the norm, but subclasses were small enough that I thought containing them to one thread would be alright.

Fair enough, I guess.
Now, I'm not building it specifically for this contest, but I am in the middle of making a base class for one of my friends, anyway (The Witch, but nothing at all like the 3.x/Pathfinder Witch). I'm probably not going to be using it for the contest (The current idea is a Barbarian), but would it be allowable to use it if I changed my mind?

MoleMage
2018-07-03, 10:35 PM
If the Base class is posted somewhere we can get at it and was not made specifically for this contest it's fine. It should be a complete base class first though.

BerzerkerUnit
2018-07-03, 10:44 PM
Is this ongoing? I'm going to post something soon.

MoleMage
2018-07-03, 10:59 PM
New contest just went up yesterday and it will stay open for four weeks, so post away! There's a link in the first post of this thread.

Ninja_Prawn
2018-07-04, 02:32 PM
Well, I think I've got something coherent enough to post now. It's very much shot from the hip though; I'm not particularly confident about the balance. Some feedback would be appreciated!

Blackbando
2018-07-04, 06:01 PM
Well, I think I've got something coherent enough to post now. It's very much shot from the hip though; I'm not particularly confident about the balance. Some feedback would be appreciated!

I feel as though Reflect Magic might be too good for only 1 sorcery point, as you're both casting a spell that's potentially very powerful (such as fireball) without a slot, and as a reaction. Maybe a number of sorc points equal to the spell level, ala Twinned Spell?

Ivellius
2018-07-04, 10:47 PM
Well, I think I've got something coherent enough to post now. It's very much shot from the hip though; I'm not particularly confident about the balance. Some feedback would be appreciated!

I really like the flavor of this--it's quite unique.

Mimic Trait is interesting. I feel like there's probably a way to make it overpowered--the best thing I can think of is something like semi-permanent energy resistance off a friendly tiefling or dragonborn, but neither of those are all that out of line. Making it humanoid only and distance-restricted gets around a lot of the potential abuse cases, and it does have some interesting utility. Overall, I really like this.

I agree that Reflect Magic seems pretty strong for its cost. Scaling on spell level makes sense, but that would be pretty expensive. I think you also need some clarifying language about it: for example, does it reflect the entire spell? As written, a Fireball might seem to re-explode on the original caster, or it might just be that you reflect a single gout onto the caster. I like the central idea but it is a little half-baked. Perhaps even just adapting the Monk's Deflect Missiles (so triggering on a missed spell attack?) would feel better here.

Copycat is also an interesting feature, but getting an extra 9th-level spell (best case here and only 17+) is just generally forbidden. I'm not sure if I like a "limit to 5th-level or lower spells" as the best solution, but it's the main one that occurs to me. It's still probably fine at that point and provides an interesting way to, for instance, duplicate a cleric's Channel Divinity or paladin's Divine Smite off an attack. Question: how would the other humanoid's Extra Attack work with this feature? As written, I don't think you'd get extra attacks, but giving them would make sense. Long rest refresh is good here, I think.

Perfect Duplicate is good and flavorful. Maybe even add Alter Self? I don't think any of these at this level are game-breaking.

I might think about some additional way to spend sorcery points on this option, though that's not necessary by any means. (I pretty much always design Sorcerer options with two ways to spend, though the class itself can spend them easily enough.)

gloryblaze
2018-07-05, 02:22 AM
Submitted a Monk subclass based on a hybrid of Talonflame from Pokémon and the Pegasus Knights from Fire Emblem. I am content with the flavor, but I have a nagging feeling that it's horrendously overpowered. My main concerns are:

~way the hell too much synergy with a 3 level Assassin Rogue dip
~should Brave Bird be capped to 5 dice, like smites, rather than 10 dice, like Quivering Palm? I went with the higher number because I felt like the recoil damage should allow for some high risk-high reward plays without breaking balance TOO much
~should Brave Bird have a higher Ki cost? It's 3 ki and 22 damage to self in return for +45 damage on one attack. Quivering Palm is 3 ki for 55 damage and a chance of an instakill, but that damage is instead of an action instead of on top of your action. Additionally, QP has a turn delay while BB takes place immediately, and QP is a capstone feature while BB is not.
~should Gale Force be included at all? I would really like it to be, as I like the mechanic and flavor a lot, but I worry it's a)busted and b)stepping on the Fighter's toes, as it's quite similar to Action Surge.
~if Gale Force is fine, should it have a higher or lower ki cost?

White room dpr for Assassin 3/Tempest 17 against surprised foe:

Turn 1:
-Spend 1 ki point to activate Gale Wings
-As a bonus action, activate Skystepper (unless you already can fly)
-You can fly 110 feet if you are a medium creature without a fly speed. If you are an aarakocra, you can fly 300 feet. It's not unlikely that you can arrange to fly 100 feet straight towards an enemy.
-Spear attack (x2) + Brave Bird + Sneak Attack + Gale Wings = 26d8 + 4d6 + 10 damage (141 average). Yikes. This will also almost certainly proc Galeforce, allowing you to make 2 more spear attacks and 2 bonus action attacks from Flurry, plus sneak attack and maybe even some extra brave bird damage if you have space to charge again.

Clearly, that's a LOT of damage, but it requires a surprise round to be set up and costs you 11 ki points (if you want to use Gale Wings, 2 Brave Birds, and a flurry), 45 average recoil damage from the crit brave bird on turn one, and a handful more recoil from the second brave bird on turn 2. I have to wonder how the dpr compares to a Sorcadin dropping Quickened SCAG cantrips and unloading high level smites - I feel like the sorcadin might actually outpace the bird monk, but he's using long rest resources instead of ki points and health.

Ninja_Prawn
2018-07-05, 02:54 AM
I agree that Reflect Magic seems pretty strong for its cost.

You're probably right. I've introduced scaling to Reflect Magic and made it so you can't cast spells for free with Copycat. And clarified how reflect works with AoE spells.

Ivellius
2018-07-05, 06:55 AM
You're probably right. I've introduced scaling to Reflect Magic and made it so you can't cast spells for free with Copycat. And clarified how reflect works with AoE spells.

Neat. The change to Copycat is a smart one...and I still love the originality of the idea.

I'd like to make a minor rewrite suggestion for Reflect Magic if you don't mind, so I've taken the liberty of doing that myself. Let me know if you think this is clearer:

"Whenever you succeed on a saving throw against a spell or cantrip, you can spend a number of sorcery points equal to the spell's level (1 for a cantrip) as a reaction to reflect the spell's energy against its caster. When you do this, the caster must make the relevant saving throw against their own spell save DC and are affected exactly as if they had been the original target of or within the area of the spell."

Leaving it as simply "reflect the spell against its caster" is still causing my rule-oriented brain to say, "Well, wouldn't that mean the spell re-occurs on the caster in its entirety?" I do think the intention is relatively clear.


Submitted a Monk subclass based on a hybrid of Talonflame from Pokémon and the Pegasus Knights from Fire Emblem. I am content with the flavor, but I have a nagging feeling that it's horrendously overpowered. My main concerns are:

[stuff]

I actually think Gale Wings is too loaded. Depends a little on what you want to keep / cut, but I'd make it advantage on your Initiative roll and probably strip one of the other benefits. Being first in initiative is a really nice benefit anyway, and while it does cost you quite a bit at 3rd level I would pretty much always use this feature (who wouldn't?) once I had a reasonable reserve of ki.

Skystepper isn't bad, exactly, but monks generally are on a short-rest paradigm, and I feel like this feature is basically just to enable a bigger Brave Bird strike. Something like the Eagle Totemic Attunement (or Mike Mearls's Acrobat Thief) might be more useful here.

Brave Bird probably is too powerful. I think you can generally assume a character will get the maximum dice, so it scales quite well, and you've noted the comparison to Quivering Palm. My inclination is to go with the 5 dice route; overall, though, I do like the risk-reward paradigm it offers. Possible suggestion: what if it requires your bonus action? Monks like those, so that makes it compete with other class features instead of a "you almost always want to use this if you're able." I would probably fiddle with the balance to find a sweet spot where 1 or 2 ki feels the right cost.

Galeforce in concept looks pretty good to me. Given that you get a whole turn, it's much better than Action Surge, but having a cost and it being a capstone offset any concerns about overlap I'd have. I think it's a smidge under-costed--again, like Brave Bird, this is an ability you'll always want to use if you can. 4 feels better to me and matches with what you can recover with Perfect Self; I have no math to back that up. Additional wording note: you should generally use "reduce a creature to 0 hit points" as terminology rather than "kill" because of the fuzziness around death saving throws and such with NPCs.

MoleMage
2018-07-05, 07:55 AM
You're probably right. I've introduced scaling to Reflect Magic and made it so you can't cast spells for free with Copycat. And clarified how reflect works with AoE spells.

I wanted to add that Mimic Trait offers 4 "mechanical" bonuses and one "fluff" bonus. Given that, players are going to want to pick one of the mechanical choices most of the time. I would suggest instead tying the accent and mannerisms into the others. Something along the lines of "While you mimic a trait with this features, you may also choose to take on the target's accent, verbal tics, and mannerisms."

Other than that, it seems like you've got a pretty good balance as of my reading it this morning (haven't digested my coffee yet though so may not be the best judge).


Stuff

Gale Wings allows a level 3 character to ignore an important roll every combat (or near enough every combat). I would suggest making it a flat bonus, like advantage (as Ivellius suggested) or maybe Proficiency in initiative rolls. If you do, you can leave the bonus to initiative free and make the ki cost for the doubled speed and bonus damage (regardless of whether you go first).

Skystepper looks okay, but it feels kinda odd for me. Bonus actions usually have immediate results, this has a 10 minute duration. For balance I would say that instead of doubling existing fly speed, it should probably give a flat increase to fly speed. Casually doubling speed is the sort of thing that players will find a way to break (for that matter, how do Skystepper and Gale Wings stack? 3.5 had "two doublings is a tripling" written into the rules, but 5e doesn't have a default resolution for multiple doublings. What about haste in the mix? Do they have 2x2x2=8 times their normal speed or 2x2x2=4 times their normal speed?).

I think that Brave Bird is hazily maybe okay, possibly. The movement in a straight line is a fairly restrictive prerequisite (once your enemies know about your super charge attack all they have to do is stay in melee with you to limit it), and its scaling requires you to use Step of the Wind just to maximize it when it is unlocked (an extra 1 ki cost PLUS your bonus action), and then only if you have a 30ft racial move speed (no halfling, gnome, or dwarf monks). It does have concerning interactions with speed boosting spells, especially haste, but that requires either a 5 level multiclass or a party member dedicating a third level spell just to let you hit yourself in the face every time you use it to the tune of 5d6/5d8. One problem I can see is that it combines with Gale Wings to nova hard on turn 1. I've played a Diviner wizard and that's the sort of thing I save my Portents 20 roll for (I'm sorry, how big was your dragon? Well now it's 2d10+22d8+Dex less big. No, it doesn't get a say in the matter, I always go first.). Though I guess the bonus damage on crit also means bonus damage on recoil...someone who is better at math will have to check this one.

Galeforce could maybe have a slightly higher cost, but given that it triggers only once per round and it's your archetype capstone you are probably okay as it is.

Finally, Brave Bird and Galeforce both require a piercing melee weapon which is a little odd for a monk subclass (if explained by your intro). Can you not also trigger them with an unarmed strike? Your description mentions javelins as well but none of these features improve thrown weapon attacks.

Ivellius
2018-07-05, 08:23 AM
Finally, Brave Bird and Galeforce both require a piercing melee weapon which is a little odd for a monk subclass (if explained by your intro). Can you not also trigger them with an unarmed strike? Your description mentions javelins as well but none of these features improve thrown weapon attacks.

Although I was not the one posting it, I surmise that the intention was to make the features trigger on "attack with a melee weapon that deals piercing damage," a bonus for which javelins would (somewhat oddly) qualify.

Thanatos 51-50
2018-07-05, 09:10 AM
As a quick aside: there is a different Way of the Tempest on the board (It's what I called my Pirate Monk Subclass) they're far from the same, whomever is inspecting entries for DQs.

EDIT:
Also: The Way of the Center, a Barbarian subclass inspired by Black Holes. has now been posted.

gloryblaze
2018-07-05, 04:40 PM
Thank you for the in depth analysis y'all! Will attempt to return the favor for your classes



I actually think Gale Wings is too loaded. Depends a little on what you want to keep / cut, but I'd make it advantage on your Initiative roll and probably strip one of the other benefits. Being first in initiative is a really nice benefit anyway, and while it does cost you quite a bit at 3rd level I would pretty much always use this feature (who wouldn't?) once I had a reasonable reserve of ki.

Changed going first -> gaining expertise in initiative with no ki cost. Kept an optional ki cost to double speed, removed bonus damage.



Skystepper isn't bad, exactly, but monks generally are on a short-rest paradigm, and I feel like this feature is basically just to enable a bigger Brave Bird strike. Something like the Eagle Totemic Attunement (or Mike Mearls's Acrobat Thief) might be more useful here.

The long rest recharge was based on the Open Hand monk's Wholeness of Body, which is another 6th level feature with no ki cost that is a long rest recharge. I was considering something along the lines of "you can spend 1 ki point as a bonus action to gain a fly speed equal to your walking speed this turn. If you end your turn in the air, you fall". Idk how much I like that now, though, because...



Brave Bird probably is too powerful. I think you can generally assume a character will get the maximum dice, so it scales quite well, and you've noted the comparison to Quivering Palm. My inclination is to go with the 5 dice route; overall, though, I do like the risk-reward paradigm it offers. Possible suggestion: what if it requires your bonus action? Monks like those, so that makes it compete with other class features instead of a "you almost always want to use this if you're able." I would probably fiddle with the balance to find a sweet spot where 1 or 2 ki feels the right cost.

I did make Brave Bird eat your bonus action, and I would like the two abilities to synergize. I have not reduced the dice from 10 to 5 because a) it will be more difficult to achieve 10 dice on turns besides turn 1 without the ability to bonus action dash and b) I want it to be competitive with Flurry of Blows, which at high levels is 1 ki point and a bonus action for 2d10+10 (21) damage for 2 unarmed strikes. A 10d8 Brave Bird is 2 ki points (cost reduced), a bonus action, and 22 recoil damage for 10d8 (45) damage. As the ki cost is doubled, it makes sense to me that the damage should roughly be doubled as well, and the extra 4 damage is more than paid for by the recoil damage IMO. More importantly, the recoil helps to balance the fact that this is "fast damage", essentially allowing you to flurry twice in one turn rather than having to flurry twice over the course of 2 turns.



Galeforce in concept looks pretty good to me. Given that you get a whole turn, it's much better than Action Surge, but having a cost and it being a capstone offset any concerns about overlap I'd have. I think it's a smidge under-costed--again, like Brave Bird, this is an ability you'll always want to use if you can. 4 feels better to me and matches with what you can recover with Perfect Self; I have no math to back that up. Additional wording note: you should generally use "reduce a creature to 0 hit points" as terminology rather than "kill" because of the fuzziness around death saving throws and such with NPCs.

Wording changed, cost increased.



Gale Wings allows a level 3 character to ignore an important roll every combat (or near enough every combat). I would suggest making it a flat bonus, like advantage (as Ivellius suggested) or maybe Proficiency in initiative rolls. If you do, you can leave the bonus to initiative free and make the ki cost for the doubled speed and bonus damage (regardless of whether you go first).

Gale Wings was changed based on the consensus between you two - although I went with expertise in initiative rather than advantage because advantage feels kind of like the revised ranger's thing to me.



Skystepper looks okay, but it feels kinda odd for me. Bonus actions usually have immediate results, this has a 10 minute duration. For balance I would say that instead of doubling existing fly speed, it should probably give a flat increase to fly speed. Casually doubling speed is the sort of thing that players will find a way to break (for that matter, how do Skystepper and Gale Wings stack? 3.5 had "two doublings is a tripling" written into the rules, but 5e doesn't have a default resolution for multiple doublings. What about haste in the mix? Do they have 2x2x2=8 times their normal speed or 2x2x2=4 times their normal speed?).

Idk about the hard line between actions have durations and bonus actions take effect immediately. Shield of Faith, for instance, is a bonus action that has a 10 minute duration. However, at your suggestion, the if clause has been changed to an additive increase instead of a multiplicative one.



I think that Brave Bird is hazily maybe okay, possibly. The movement in a straight line is a fairly restrictive prerequisite (once your enemies know about your super charge attack all they have to do is stay in melee with you to limit it), and its scaling requires you to use Step of the Wind just to maximize it when it is unlocked (an extra 1 ki cost PLUS your bonus action), and then only if you have a 30ft racial move speed (no halfling, gnome, or dwarf monks). It does have concerning interactions with speed boosting spells, especially haste, but that requires either a 5 level multiclass or a party member dedicating a third level spell just to let you hit yourself in the face every time you use it to the tune of 5d6/5d8. One problem I can see is that it combines with Gale Wings to nova hard on turn 1. I've played a Diviner wizard and that's the sort of thing I save my Portents 20 roll for (I'm sorry, how big was your dragon? Well now it's 2d10+22d8+Dex less big. No, it doesn't get a say in the matter, I always go first.). Though I guess the bonus damage on crit also means bonus damage on recoil...someone who is better at math will have to check this one.

Brave Bird now has a bonus action cost, to prevent self-maximizing it with Step of the Wind (or a rogue dip for cunning action). It now requires set up (such as haste, like you mentioned) to do max damage in most circumstances. I have kept the ability to do a turn 1 alpha strike with it thanks to internal synergy with Gale wings, because that's sort of what the whole class is building towards is a redonk turn 1 and then evening out afterwards.



Galeforce could maybe have a slightly higher cost, but given that it triggers only once per round and it's your archetype capstone you are probably okay as it is.

Cost up by 1



Finally, Brave Bird and Galeforce both require a piercing melee weapon which is a little odd for a monk subclass (if explained by your intro). Can you not also trigger them with an unarmed strike? Your description mentions javelins as well but none of these features improve thrown weapon attacks.

Dropped the requirement from Gale Force so it can be triggered by unarmed strikes. You can, in fact, make melee attacks with javelins (as well as throwing them), and the intent for Brave Bird is sort of a set-your-lance-and-charge attack, so I want that to be melee attack only. Brave Bird is now the only feature with the melee piercing requirement, as the bonus damage was dropped from Gale Wings and the requirement was dropped from Galeforce.


Although I was not the one posting it, I surmise that the intention was to make the features trigger on "attack with a melee weapon that deals piercing damage," a bonus for which javelins would (somewhat oddly) qualify. The intent was still to force you to make a melee attack with your javelin, should you choose to use one. The benefit of using a javelin over a spear is the better thrown range for times when you need a ranged attack or do not want to proc BB, whereas the upside of the spear is that you can wield it in 2 hands to get a d8 damage dice far before the martial arts die catches up. Once martial arts die is d8, javelin is just flat out better than spear I'm pretty sure

EDIT - oath of searing stars comments


Oath Spells: You gain access to the following spells at the paladin levels listed.
3rd – armor of Agathys, arms of Hadar
5th – blindness / deafness, crown of madness
9th – hunger of Hadar, vampiric touch
13th – Evard’s black tentacles, phantasmal killer
17th – Bigby’s hand, contact other plane

Bigby's Hand feels kind of out of place? Not a huge deal, but i might throw in Synaptic Static instead. I would also kind of expect Sickening Radiance in the 4th level spells section. Of course, neither of these are PHB spells, so it makes sense that you might want to avoid them to remain consistent with WotC's published material. I think the only class or race that gives access to a non-PHB spell is the Triton, but I could be wrong.



Channel Divinity: When you take this oath at 3rd level, you gain the following two Channel Divinity options:

Weapon of the Beyond: As an action, for 1 minute, you empower your weapon with unnatural energy, causing it to disrupt both the body and mind of your foes. You add your Charisma modifier to attack rolls made with a weapon of your choice (with a minimum bonus of +1). The weapon’s base damage type changes to necrotic, and any radiant damage you deal through the weapon (such as through your Divine Smite feature) becomes psychic damage for the duration. If the weapon is not already magical, it becomes magical for the duration. You can end this effect on your turn as part of any other action. If you are no longer holding or carrying this weapon, or if you fall unconscious, this effect ends.
Turn the Simple: As an action, you present your holy symbol and rebuke those creatures that make up non-civilized life. Each beast or plant that can see or hear you within 30 feet of you must make a Wisdom saving throw. If the creature fails, it is turned for 1 minute or until it takes damage. A turned creature must spend its turns trying to move as far away from you as it can, and it can’t willingly move to a space within 30 feet of you. It also can’t take reactions. For its action, it can use only the Dash action or try to escape from an effect that prevents it from moving. If there’s nowhere to move, the creature can use the Dodge action instead.


Based on the name of the oath (searing stars) and the 4th edition tradition of far realm star creatures being associated with radiant damage, on top of 5e recently making an effort for more sinister (or at least non-holy) radiant effects to be included (sickening radiance; wall of light and crown of stars to a lesser extent), I would expect this oath to embrace radiant damage rather than shy away from it.



Touched by the Searing Stars: Beginning at 15th level, you gain one of the following benefits as the influence of the Beyond twists your physical form.

Clutching Tentacles: You grow two tentacles from your back that hunger to restrain mortal life. You can use these tentacles to initiate a grapple as a bonus action, holding the creature between these tentacles. You also gain a climbing speed equal to your current walking speed if these tentacles are unoccupied.
Fearful Visage: Your countenance shifts into a horrid approximation of mortal mien. As an action, you can choose a creature that can see and hear you within 60 feet. The creature must make an Intelligence saving throw against your paladin spell save DC or be frightened of you for 1 minute. It can repeat the saving throw at the end of each of its turns to end this effect. On a success, the creature is immune to this feature for 24 hours.
Oozing Form: You become only semisolid, gaining the ability to avoid damage and seep through small cracks and other openings. When struck by a weapon attack, you can use your reaction to halve the damage received. Additionally, you can use your action to destabilize your form into a liquid form, letting you pass through an opening or crack that is permeable and treating other liquids as solid surfaces. If you do not restabilize yourself on your turn (no action required), you suffer your character level in necrotic damage at the end of your turn. This damage cannot be avoided in any way.
Once you choose one of these effects, you gain its benefits until you choose another effect after you finish a long rest.


-Fearful Visage feels like it ought to be a Wis save rather than Int, to me at least. Frightened is also a very powerful condition, so keying it to a more common save may be good for balance.
-The wording on Oozing Form feels awkward to me. I would probably model it on the "Amorphous" trait that many oozes have. Something like


You become only semisolid, gaining the ability to avoid damage and seep through small cracks and other openings. When struck by a weapon attack, you can use your reaction to halve the damage received. Additionally, you can use your action to become an amorphous blob. As a blob, you can move through a space as narrow as 1 inch wide without squeezing. You can return to your original form at any time. If you end your turn as a blob, you take necrotic damage equal to your character level. This damage cannot be reduced or prevented in any way.

Overall, this is a pretty cool subclass! It has a strong fluff theme (alien, spooky) but I do kind of feel like it lacks a core mechanical identity. Is it supposed to focus on dealing and resisting psychic damage (the most prevalent theme I currently see)? Is it supposed to be a shapeshifter? A grappler? Though this is sort of a minor nitpick. Unity of flavor tends to be more important than unity of mechanics, IMO.

Ivellius
2018-07-05, 06:36 PM
Thank you for the in depth analysis y'all! Will attempt to return the favor for your classes.

I think your changes are well-considered and it looks much better. Not all of the suggested changes were necessary, I wouldn't say--I think both MoleMage and I were approaching it from "Here are several possible avenues to bring things in line." It seems solid now, though I do think a more evocative name might be nice. Way of the Soaring Strike? (That's an off-the-top-of-my-head remark.)


EDIT - oath of searing stars comments

Overall, this is a pretty cool subclass! It has a strong fluff theme (alien, spooky) but I do kind of feel like it lacks a core mechanical identity. Is it supposed to focus on dealing and resisting psychic damage (the most prevalent theme I currently see)? Is it supposed to be a shapeshifter? A grappler? Though this is sort of a minor nitpick. Unity of flavor tends to be more important than unity of mechanics, IMO.


I'll leave my feedback spoilered just for space.

In terms of overall role, it's meant to be a vaguely battlefield-control option, but in a different way than, say, the Oath of Conquest does it. Notice the spells are mostly AoE / control effects; I do consider the "unknown horrors" an important concept to cover as well; in my mind the psychic damage / resistance is an outgrowth of that, which runs alongside the mechanical control aspect (through spells and Fearful Visage). Mechanically, though, I felt the psychic damage aspect would add a bit more impact to the features that use it, which otherwise might feel a bit lacking for players.

You're right that I avoid non-PHB spells, just as part of a general policy of being as widely compatible as possible. Bigby's Hand doesn't exactly fit with its normal fluff, but comparing it to arms / hunger of Hadar it seemed like the closest 5th-level thing available. Grab more stuff, basically.

The two Channel Divinity options are the things I'm least happy about. I think Weapon of the Beyond is reasonably thematic, and I felt that the spells were holding down the control theme well enough at this level, but I agree that outright replacing radiant damage might not be warranted. Having said that, I did also want an option for psychic damage at this point--I'm probably going to change it to optional psychic damage instead of required replacement. Turn the Simple is just "well, lots of paladins have this and it's not too powerful." Which isn't a strong defense, I know.

Given the emphasis on psychic damage, I like Fearful Visage as an Intelligence save better. It's not intended to be overcome with force of will; your mind has to be strong enough to be unaffected. Frightened seemed the best condition to me, though I'd be open to other suggestions there. Oozing Form is one of those features where the squeezing option is extremely situational, but I worry that making it better could lead to a lot of in-combat "abuse." Given that it requires an action and you destabilizing your form, it's not really intended to be a "quick getaway" option so much as an infiltration approach, and I like keeping the reaction damage reduction on it. While I didn't intend it when I was sketching it out, I liked the action economy of putting all of these things together for the final form, so they do also require different actions for a reason. It's also intended to give you something from the class that doesn't require a resource and can be a strategic staple, as I consider the aura semi-situational. You are definitely correct that Amorphous Form would be a much simpler implementation, though.

Thanks for the quick feedback. I'm going to have to ponder other CD options, I think, but I appreciate the positive comments.

Jormengand
2018-07-06, 07:20 AM
VMC warlock is done! And was surprisingly much effort to do, actually. Ah well. What do we think of it? :smallsmile:

Ninja_Prawn
2018-07-07, 08:27 AM
It's available on the DM's Guild (http://www.dmsguild.com/product/237881/Sorcerous-Origin-Voidtouched)

@MoleMage Is that a breach of rule #4?

MoleMage
2018-07-07, 10:15 AM
Yes, sharing a class publicly elsewhere during the contest would be a breach of that rule. Please take down the other posting or submit a new subclass until the contest is over (once the contest finishes you can do whatever with your class).

sengmeng
2018-07-09, 07:31 AM
Well, it looks like I didn't learn my lesson about homebrewing in systems I havent played. The Xenomancer is up and ready to be PEACHed.

Blackbando
2018-07-09, 11:01 AM
Sengmeng, I really like the ideas thrown here, but I have a few concerns.

Psionics
This feature is pretty good, and while I won't really comment on how balanced it may or may not be to remove components in most cases (I personally don't think it's a super huge deal, but a lot of people disagree with me and say it's huge), the biggest concern I have is that it also removes costly components; any spells that normally have a cost can now be cast for no cost (aside from a spell slot, of course).

Body Sculptor
What exactly does it mean by "Alternatively, he may choose one of these changes to have for the entire day."? Does this mean you can choose one effect when you cast a spell, but cannot get the rest? Or can you just have them for the whole day instead of a few rounds? I would assume the former, but you should probably clarify.

Psion
Some clarification is needed, here; can multiple points be spent on one cast, or only one?

sengmeng
2018-07-09, 06:07 PM
@Blackbando

Thanks for the feedback! I have made adjustments to each ability you mentioned, some for clarity and some for reworking.

Also, how would transhumanoid or post-humanoid sound as alternative names for the last ability?

Blackbando
2018-07-09, 09:02 PM
I like the name "Transhumanoid".

By the way, in 5e (to my knowledge, at least), there are no more spells costing XP.

sengmeng
2018-07-10, 09:59 AM
I like the name "Transhumanoid".

By the way, in 5e (to my knowledge, at least), there are no more spells costing XP.

Well now I feel silly. Just when I thought I knew this system.

WarrentheHero
2018-07-16, 02:13 AM
Question: The theme is beyond with strong hinting of a "beyond the stars" eldritch/space/Great Big feel. I know that the general rule is "make a subclass but if folks feel it doesn't fit the theme, you won't win even if you aren't DQd", but I want to see how people feel before making the effort of a full subclass: I sort of want to make a subclass that goes "beyond" its limits to do stuff. I'm thinking maybe a Barbarian subclass that sacrifices HD in order to get boosts, going Beyond the limits of its own body, or somesuch. Do you guys feel that's in-line with the theme to not get soft-DQd, or should I stick to spacey stuff? Cause I can do Cosmic too; this is just my first impression.

Ninja_Prawn
2018-07-16, 02:44 AM
Personally, I don't think that's a great fit unless you fluff it as being alien-y. The full theme is "it came from beyond" and I think the first three words are just as important as the last one. Which kind of limits you to 'beyond the stars' or 'beyond the grave'. I've tried 'beyond the looking glass' but I thought even that might be tenuous.

Ivellius
2018-07-16, 09:46 AM
Question: The theme is beyond with strong hinting of a "beyond the stars" eldritch/space/Great Big feel. I know that the general rule is "make a subclass but if folks feel it doesn't fit the theme, you won't win even if you aren't DQd", but I want to see how people feel before making the effort of a full subclass: I sort of want to make a subclass that goes "beyond" its limits to do stuff. I'm thinking maybe a Barbarian subclass that sacrifices HD in order to get boosts, going Beyond the limits of its own body, or somesuch. Do you guys feel that's in-line with the theme to not get soft-DQd, or should I stick to spacey stuff? Cause I can do Cosmic too; this is just my first impression.

I don't think it has to be "cosmic" necessarily, but there has to be some sort of interplanar / location aspect.


Personally, I don't think that's a great fit unless you fluff it as being alien-y. The full theme is "it came from beyond" and I think the first three words are just as important as the last one. Which kind of limits you to 'beyond the stars' or 'beyond the grave'. I've tried 'beyond the looking glass' but I thought even that might be tenuous.

I thought yours worked well in terms of fitting the concept. If I don't vote for yours it has nothing to do with that. ;)

WarrentheHero
2018-07-17, 12:15 AM
My Submission, the Druid Circle of the Far Stars, is up in the main thread. It's a Druid subclass that alters its Wild Shape into abberant forms, such as growing tentacles, gaining eyes, or using psionic blasts. It has been brought to my attention that there is a Druid subclass on Middle Finger of Vecna that has some conceptual similarities, but I didn't even know about that when I started working on this.

The Circle of the Far Stars is underpowered compared to the Circle of the Moon, but then again, what isn't? That said, it's 14th-level ability is stronger than the equivalent Circle of the Land ability, so I think it strikes a sort of middle ground. One note a friend put in is to buff the 2nd-level CR of wild shapes to 1 to better follow the power curve of Moon, and it's something I've thought about but haven't made a final decision on. I don't think I would make it scale as the Moon does, but buffing the early game would help a lot, as the Far Stars is a Wild Shape-dependent subclass.

WarrentheHero
2018-07-17, 09:50 PM
A couple of tweaks to the Circle of Far Stars: Maximum CR for wild/weird shaping increased to 1/2, and beginning at 4th level that maximum increases to Druid level divided by 4 (rounded down). also changed the name of the 10th level ability to "Xenomorphic" and added a feature to that same ability that allows you to gain one of the Weird Form Traits, chosen when you finish a long rest.

Submortimer
2018-07-21, 12:18 PM
*snip*

I'm only here to post that I'm going to build something that will beat yours, prawn :-p

Ninja_Prawn
2018-07-21, 02:20 PM
I'm only here to post that I'm going to build something that will beat yours, prawn :-p

Bring it on, punk! My Mirrorkin Sorcerer is bringing home the grand prize, and there's nothing you can do to stop me! MUAHAHAHAHA!!

Jormengand
2018-07-21, 04:50 PM
Does anyone have any thoughts on the VMC warlock, incidentally?

sengmeng
2018-07-22, 01:09 PM
Does anyone have any thoughts on the VMC warlock, incidentally?

I liked this idea the first time you had it. It doesn't seem better or worse than your last entry, and doesn't seem to fit the theme any better (it implies that all warlocks are already connected to beyondness, which I feel is less justified than all rogues being technologically inclined). I believe it will perform more or less the same as your last entry, which may or may not be acceptable. For my own part, even a single vote for my entry would be encouraging, considering my lack of experience with 5e, but you may be holding yourself to higher standards.

Jormengand
2018-07-22, 02:16 PM
it implies that all warlocks are already connected to beyondness

I mean, yes? That's literally the core defining theme of the warlock! :smallconfused:

WarrentheHero
2018-07-22, 03:20 PM
Does anyone have any thoughts on the VMC warlock, incidentally?

First thing I'd say is that the Paladin Channel Divinity is far too powerful. It easily beats every other Paladin Channel Divinity imo, but it's also better than some of their 20th-level capstones. The ability increases are waaaay too good (and also sort of distant from 5e's design style), and on top of that they gain a bonus to AC, speed, and their attacks/round becomes insane, especially at higher levels. The damage doesn't scale with level, but of course the attacks do, and consider that each attack on a creature's turn can be used to make a grapple or shove, it's way, way above the power curve for nearly any class at nearly any level. Consider the Vengeance Paladin's Channel Divinity: As an action, they get advantage on attacks against one creature. Or the Devotion Paladin, which gets their Charisma to attack and damage rolls. Usually a Paladin's Charisma, especially at level 3, is +2. So the Devotion Paladin gets +2 to attack and damage. Yours gets +2 to attack and damage (Str boost), +1 to every other physical stat, 10% harder to hit, 33% faster, and 1-6 more attacks/round.

That's a huge discrepancy. I'm not too sure what can be done to bring this feature back in line, but personally I'd scrap it and start over; it can be really hard to trim down pieces you like of an ability you like, so for me I usually cut a feature entirely and start over. The tentacles might be good on their own, but combined with everything else it's unreasonably strong, I think.

I would also say that I don't think the Invocations really need to be 3 levels higher. Invocations are the main reason people take Warlock levels anyway (from a minmax perspective at least), and since they don't get their second one until like level 10 (except for Cleric), I don't think it needs further level-gating.

Finally, I would say that Druids should get the Elder Magic feature.

Ivellius
2018-07-22, 03:39 PM
Does anyone have any thoughts on the VMC warlock, incidentally?

It doesn't interest me, so I've elected not to comment. I also don't think it fits very well with the contests, though I'll grant you had reasonable applications of both the Rogue on the previous one and Warlock here.

sengmeng
2018-07-22, 03:49 PM
I mean, yes? That's literally the core defining theme of the warlock! :smallconfused:

Meh, just being connected to another plane, while literally otherworldly, doesn't strike me as bizarre or indefinable like the theme seems to me if it's just infernal.

Thanatos 51-50
2018-07-23, 12:52 PM
Does anyone have any thoughts on the VMC warlock, incidentally?

In short? I'd DQ it, were I in charge. It's a variant multiclass, not a subclass. The Lawful Neutral response is to not count it at all, and to not vote for it, regardless of its quality. I can tell you that I've intentionally skipped over reading it for that exact reason.
I wouldn't have even brought it up, except for that you asked.

Jormengand
2018-07-23, 01:16 PM
In short? I'd DQ it, were I in charge. It's a variant multiclass, not a subclass. The Lawful Neutral response is to not count it at all, and to not vote for it, regardless of its quality. I can tell you that I've intentionally skipped over reading it for that exact reason.
I wouldn't have even brought it up, except for that you asked.

It is a subclass, though - it's just a subclass that can be taken by any PHB class that isn't called "Warlock" so long as you don't have any warlock levels. Pedantry about a just-for-fun internet contest would be odd enough on its own, but it's not even accurate pedantry. :smallconfused:

Thanatos 51-50
2018-07-23, 01:34 PM
It is a subclass, though - it's just a subclass that can be taken by any PHB class that isn't called "Warlock" so long as you don't have any warlock levels. Pedantry about a just-for-fun internet contest would be odd enough on its own, but it's not even accurate pedantry. :smallconfused:

It's slightly different rules for multiclassing. If my Monk (Way of Shadows) 6 takes a level of Fighter, they're not a Monk (Way of Shadows) (Fighter) 7, They're a Monk (Way of Shadows) 6/Fighter 1.
I fully intend on reading the VMC Warlock you have up after the contest runs, but it's not a subclass, so, again, I'd disqualify it if I were in charge. I'm not, so my opinion isn't really valid, there. Again: I would not have brought this up had you not specifically asked for people's thoughts. Take or ignore my thoughts as you will. They've been given, as requested.

Okay. I went back and made sure to read it throughly, just to give you a fair shake, because, who knows? I might have been way off and not giving you a chance just based on the name! That would be silly of me.
I still don't like it. It's far too much book-keeping and essentially ports over Fourth Edition's rules on multiclassing, allowing you to multiclass instead of subclass and...
I get it. I get why you might want to do this. I just don't feel like it fits with the point of subclassing. It feels like this for for when you want to have your multiclassing cake and eat your delicious level 20 capstone ability cake, too.

Jormengand
2018-07-23, 02:01 PM
It's slightly different rules for multiclassing. If my Monk (Way of Shadows) 6 takes a level of Fighter, they're not a Monk (Way of Shadows) (Fighter) 7, They're a Monk (Way of Shadows) 6/Fighter 1.

I don't see how this is a point in your favour. A Monk (VMC warlock) 7 is different from a Monk (Way of Shadows) 6/Warlock 1, because subclasses are different things from base classes. VMC warlock does all of the things that subclasses do, and basically none of the things that regular multiclassing does (with the exception of "Give you new class features" and other things that are done both by regular subclasses and regular multiclassing). It's a subclass in every sense of the word - in fact, it makes more sense to call it not real multiclassing than not a real subclass.

Thanatos 51-50
2018-07-23, 02:03 PM
Hi, went back and read the class in-depth and edited my post! You hadn't posted this reply at that time, so it went into ye aulde edit instead of double-post!

Copy-pasting it under the spoiler to preserve the flow of the thread:
Okay. I went back and made sure to read it throughly, just to give you a fair shake, because, who knows? I might have been way off and not giving you a chance just based on the name! That would be silly of me.
I still don't like it. It's far too much book-keeping and essentially ports over Fourth Edition's rules on multiclassing, allowing you to multiclass instead of subclass and...
I get it. I get why you might want to do this. I just don't feel like it fits with the point of subclassing. It feels like this for for when you want to have your multiclassing cake and eat your delicious level 20 capstone ability cake, too.

MoleMage
2018-07-23, 05:08 PM
I've started work on the Silence domain, because in space...no one can hear you scream.

Post incoming in one to two days.

Ivellius
2018-07-23, 07:15 PM
It is a subclass, though - it's just a subclass that can be taken by any PHB class that isn't called "Warlock" so long as you don't have any warlock levels. Pedantry about a just-for-fun internet contest would be odd enough on its own, but it's not even accurate pedantry. :smallconfused:

Personally, I'll "disqualify" it because you're not creating anything new, but I'm also not in charge. I wouldn't say it's against the specific letter of the contest, but it doesn't do what I'd expect an entry into a contest like this to do.

Edit: It just hit me something else that's bothering me about that: the Variant MultiClass submissions aren't really a single class option submission--they're 11 of them.

Ninja_Prawn
2018-07-24, 02:00 AM
it doesn't do what I'd expect an entry into a contest like this to do.

I feel the same way. My main reaction is basically "just write a normal subclass like everyone else!"

Also I don't particularly like the idea on a philosophical level - giving the same feature to different classes at certain levels cuts against the expectations for each class. I think most of us adhere to certain conventions when we design subclasses, like Cleric 8 should be either Divine Strike or Potent Cantrip, Rogue 9 and 13 are usually low power/non-combat features, Ranger 11 should be a straight DPR boost, Warlock 10 should be a solid defensive boost, Bard 3 gives you an alternative use for Bardic Inspiration, Paladin 7 is usually a passive aura etc. And just overall, the power added by a ranger archetype is significantly more than an arcane tradition, since the wizard base is a lot more powerful than the ranger base. Your system loses all of that, for no particular benefit.

Plus it seems over-complicated. When you entered the VMC rogue, I thought you were going for 'it's technical' in an entirely meta sense!

WarrentheHero
2018-07-27, 12:19 AM
Does anyone have feedback for Circle of the Far Stars? We're hitting crunch time and if people don't like it I want to make appropriate edits.

Thanatos 51-50
2018-07-27, 12:50 AM
Similarly, I'm not a fan of my Barbarian's level 14 ability, but I'm not entirely sure how to fix it.

sengmeng
2018-07-27, 05:22 AM
Does anyone have feedback for Circle of the Far Stars? We're hitting crunch time and if people don't like it I want to make appropriate edits.


Similarly, I'm not a fan of my Barbarian's level 14 ability, but I'm not entirely sure how to fix it.

I feel the same. I'd like to know if anyone has any thoughts, even if it's "that's kind of boring."

I'd help you guys out myself, but I don't really know enough.

gloryblaze
2018-07-27, 07:02 AM
Does anyone have feedback for Circle of the Far Stars? We're hitting crunch time and if people don't like it I want to make appropriate edits.

The flavor is great, but I worry that mechanically it's just kind of... boring. Moon Druids are better shapeshifters, and Shepherd Druids are probably better summoners (+2 HD and magic weapons for each summon feels better to me than a buff to a single conjured creature, since in my experience conjuring a bunch of small things is better than one or few big things).


Similarly, I'm not a fan of my Barbarian's level 14 ability, but I'm not entirely sure how to fix it.

I feel like emitting energy sort of goes against the black hole theme. A couple of ideas:

"Event Horizon: Creatures within 30 feet of you can't willingly move further away from you without succeeding on a Strength saving throw. Any creature that does move away from you moves only half the normal distance they would travel. When a creature other than you is targeted by a ranged attack, you can use a reaction to cause the attack to target you instead. You gain resistance to that attack's damage."

"Spaghettify: When a creature fails its saving throw against your Personal Gravity feature, it takes force damage equal to the number of feet it was pulled."


I feel the same. I'd like to know if anyone has any thoughts, even if it's "that's kind of boring."

I'd help you guys out myself, but I don't really know enough.

My main complaint with the Xenomancer is that it feels very finicky and very not-5e. 5e's design goals tend to include streamlining and simplifying whenever possible, so including power points that can be spent to upcast but also can be converted to "virtual gold" that can be spent on components for multiple spells and so on feels too technical to be printed in a 5e book.

MoleMage
2018-07-27, 07:21 AM
Well it's a little rough around the edges, but I have the Clerical Silence Domain up. I didn't expect to be fighting a deadline I myself had set, but it took a while for me to figure out what to make.

Ivellius
2018-07-27, 07:57 AM
Does anyone have feedback for Circle of the Far Stars? We're hitting crunch time and if people don't like it I want to make appropriate edits.

It's fine, I guess. It's what I would expect a Druid circle under this theme to look like. I think Outer Influence feels a bit out of place where it is--seems like it would make sense to have it come earlier--and I don't like the Alien Brain feature; off-hand, I can't think of any examples of auto-damage in 5e that are tied to an at-will ability. Stunning is also pretty powerful, even if it's conditional. I like both Corrupted Soil and Twisted Presence (though for the latter I'd probably put in a note that creatures are aware of this ability as they approach).


Similarly, I'm not a fan of my Barbarian's level 14 ability, but I'm not entirely sure how to fix it.

gloryblaze has two good suggestions. I would amend Event Horizon to this: "Any creature that does move away from you has its current movement speed reduced by one-half for its turn. Additionally, when a creature other than you is targeted by a ranged attack, you can use a reaction to cause the attack to target you instead. You gain resistance to that attack's damage." I'd also consider dropping the damage resistance part, but I dunno.


I feel the same. I'd like to know if anyone has any thoughts, even if it's "that's kind of boring."

This is probably worse, but I refrained from commenting on yours because...yeah, it is a little boring--at best it feels like a Transmutation variant--but also because it's not written like a 5e class option anyway. Right off the bat, classes are worded in the second person (so "You" gain spells that no longer require verbal or somatic components and so on), using XP for spells is just...not a thing, and in general it's just very non-standard. Let me briefly rewrite Warped Physiology but also note some its weirdness.

"Supporting an alien brain in one's head necessitates changes in the rest of the body as well. Also beginning at 2nd level, your strange magic temporarily transforms you. Whenever you cast a spell or use a cantrip, your creature type changes to aberration for a number of rounds equal to the level of the spell cast (or 1 round for cantrips). Any sneak attacks or critical hits against you have a 50% chance to fail as the targeted organs may not be there."

Having changed that, though, there should probably be changes to the duration. Almost everything in 5e is measured in a single round, minute, maybe 10 minutes, or span of hours. The critical hits and sneak attack ignoring is also non-standard; by comparison, adamantine armor just turns a critical hit into a normal hit (like this feature probably should), and picking on rogues would also be unusual.

Body Sculptor should read like the following: "When you cast a spell of 1st-level or higher, you heal hitpoints equal to the spell's level You may also gain one of the following benefits, which lasts for one round per level of the spell." (Again, the duration is fairly non-standard.) The final part of that feature is unclear, and it probably pushes the feature into "too strong" territory anyway.

Power points as implemented here are needlessly complicated, and if you wanted to put them into this option I'd almost certainly introduce them at 2nd level and spread out features to use them at each level. Transhumanoid looks a little strong, given that you get about three distinct benefits here (not counting the food thing; that's basically a ribbon). I don't think any one is that good on its own, but overall I think the effect is pretty strong, and it continues to scale past 14th level, which I generally disagree with.


Well it's a little rough around the edges, but I have the Clerical Silence Domain up. I didn't expect to be fighting a deadline I myself had set, but it took a while for me to figure out what to make.

I really like your flavor paragraph.

Domain Spells look okay (Inflict Wounds is pretty eh), and Cloak of Silence and Ray of Frost seem fine. It honestly looks a bit weak at 1st level in one sense: given that you don't get heavy armor, these clerics are probably going to want some Dexterity, and yet you have a feature that means they need to rely on it less. I'd consider adding another cantrip or proficiency or something (minor), though off-hand I couldn't really tell you what.

I'd like language clarification on Dampening Field that it moves with you. I think it's intended to, but it's not 100% clear. Also, does this require an action? It feels like it should. This is good, though honestly it might even be a little weak. Resistance to thunder damage while inside would make sense and bump it a bit.

The second line of Adaptation should probably read: "Additionally, you can hold your breath indefinitely, though it requires you to maintain concentration (as if you were concentrating on a spell)." That does raise the question of what happens if you lose concentration--do you instantly die or just begin suffocating? If you lose this, do you need to breathe again to gain its benefit, or can you just restart the effect on your turn?

Void Mantle is interesting. It should just read "Additionally, you can treat any Stealth check" as this feature is actually the thing providing it. I think I'd also flesh out the language a bit more on the last benefit: is this intended to include speech? Just movement? Can you "broadcast" sound openly, or do you have to be aware of creatures to permit them to hear you? Is this a magical ability that would turn off in an anti-magic field? There are probably a few other questions that could be asked, but those came to mind.

Overall, though, I really like this--it's a distinct flavor that goes really well with this theme, occupies a unique niche, and showed some creativity in designing.

WarrentheHero
2018-07-28, 05:17 AM
Holy cow! I gave the class a buff a while ago to increase its max Wild Shape CR to 1/2, and beginning at 4th level, that increases further to level/4, but I never "updated" it so the link always showed the weaker version! It's supposed to have been stronger almost this whole time! The 10th-level feature also changed; in addition to getting 2 traits, you can gain one non-level-dependent trait in your non-wildshape form. As a note on that: Carapace doesn't function with armor; I just don't have room to put that in there without shifting the last feature onto its own separate page.


The flavor is great, but I worry that mechanically it's just kind of... boring. Moon Druids are better shapeshifters, and Shepherd Druids are probably better summoners (+2 HD and magic weapons for each summon feels better to me than a buff to a single conjured creature, since in my experience conjuring a bunch of small things is better than one or few big things).
Do you think it would be better if it was something like up to WIS mod creatures get a Trait, and you can choose different traits for each individual? (As opposed to them all required to have the same trait)?

I know it's sort of middle-of-the-road, but I specifically made it weaker than the Moon Druid, since we all know Moon is the strongest combat Druid. I never try to match, and especially not beat, the strongest subclass or base class.


It's fine, I guess. It's what I would expect a Druid circle under this theme to look like. I think Outer Influence feels a bit out of place where it is--seems like it would make sense to have it come earlier--and I don't like the Alien Brain feature; off-hand, I can't think of any examples of auto-damage in 5e that are tied to an at-will ability. Stunning is also pretty powerful, even if it's conditional. I like both Corrupted Soil and Twisted Presence (though for the latter I'd probably put in a note that creatures are aware of this ability as they approach)

Evocation Wizard's 6th level ability does half damage on successful saves vs Cantrips, but that's the only thing I can think of, and not what I patterned it on. My thought is this: It replaces and Action, so you're losing out on damage. A lot of damage once you shift into forms that have Multiattack. So the half-damage is to help you recoup a tiny amount of damage. It's only 2d6- average 7. So on a successful save, you're doing 1-6 damage, average 3.5. Not a lot for level 6. And it doesn't benefit from your Int or Wis and doesn't increase in damage until lategame.
The bigger issue is the Stun. It is strong, but I think it's not so strong that it disrupts fights, which is the underlying concern. For most midlevel druids, the stun DC is effectively 11 or 12, which is pretty easy, even for Int saves. I could lower it to Incapacitation, but the low damage if the foe doesn't whiff their save is the counterbalance. That said, I could make it so that no matter how many forms you take, you can't Brain Blast more than Wis mod times per day.

I could add a warning to Twisted Presence, and it would make sense, but I figure that its initial impact is low enough as to not be a problem, and that the DM can always decide it's visible/perceptible. It's not worded in such a way as to definitively be perceptible or imperceptible, so if a DM thinks it's too strong if its imperceptible at first, they can just rule otherwise.

Thanatos 51-50
2018-07-28, 07:40 AM
"Event Horizon: Creatures within 30 feet of you can't willingly move further away from you without succeeding on a Strength saving throw. Any creature that does move away from you moves only half the normal distance they would travel. When a creature other than you is targeted by a ranged attack, you can use a reaction to cause the attack to target you instead. You gain resistance to that attack's damage."

You know, back before I posted even the version found here first, I did have Event Horizon as a subclass feature, except I think all it did was force ranged attacks to re-target you. I think the "can't run away" aspect really improves the whole idea. Thank you for that.
Gave the attacker disadvantage on the attack roll targeting you, instead. Barbarians already get damage resistance while raging, disadvantage is probably stronger, and I feel like it's the best way to reflect being prepared for the attack you pull into you and altering its trajectory.

Anyway. Path of the Center has been updated.

Also also:
I really like the College of Constellations on my first read-through!

MoleMage
2018-07-29, 01:30 PM
I really like your flavor paragraph.

Domain Spells look okay (Inflict Wounds is pretty eh), and Cloak of Silence and Ray of Frost seem fine. It honestly looks a bit weak at 1st level in one sense: given that you don't get heavy armor, these clerics are probably going to want some Dexterity, and yet you have a feature that means they need to rely on it less. I'd consider adding another cantrip or proficiency or something (minor), though off-hand I couldn't really tell you what.

I'd like language clarification on Dampening Field that it moves with you. I think it's intended to, but it's not 100% clear. Also, does this require an action? It feels like it should. This is good, though honestly it might even be a little weak. Resistance to thunder damage while inside would make sense and bump it a bit.

The second line of Adaptation should probably read: "Additionally, you can hold your breath indefinitely, though it requires you to maintain concentration (as if you were concentrating on a spell)." That does raise the question of what happens if you lose concentration--do you instantly die or just begin suffocating? If you lose this, do you need to breathe again to gain its benefit, or can you just restart the effect on your turn?

Void Mantle is interesting. It should just read "Additionally, you can treat any Stealth check" as this feature is actually the thing providing it. I think I'd also flesh out the language a bit more on the last benefit: is this intended to include speech? Just movement? Can you "broadcast" sound openly, or do you have to be aware of creatures to permit them to hear you? Is this a magical ability that would turn off in an anti-magic field? There are probably a few other questions that could be asked, but those came to mind.

Overall, though, I really like this--it's a distinct flavor that goes really well with this theme, occupies a unique niche, and showed some creativity in designing.

Inflict Wounds was just because there aren't a lot of exciting first level options. I'm open to suggestions but it is probably too late since the contest ends tonight.

Moving the Wisdom to stealth checks to Void Mantle. Cloak of Silence now grants the ability to ignore verbal components (but not somatic or material components) instead.

Dampening Field wording cleared up. It now halves thunder damage for all creatures (not just the cleric) inside the aura.

Adaptation clarified some. You must be able to breathe to start using it. When it ends, you treat it as if you had just entered the environment (for example, in water, you would count the number of rounds you can hold your breath starting from when the effect ended).

Void Mantle now adds Wisdom to Stealth in addition to Dexterity. The minimum Stealth check was lowered to 10.

Void Mantle's "I don't make noise" effect was complicated enough to go under another ability name, so the Walk in Silence feature is now added to the post. It's just the old "I don't make noise" effect with hopefully clearer wording.

Ninja_Prawn
2018-07-30, 12:36 PM
The voting thread goes live today, right? Man, I'd better start reading through some of these... :smallsigh:

Ivellius
2018-07-30, 02:15 PM
I wish I'd remembered to design Channel Divinity options. Ah well, I have a good excuse.

MoleMage
2018-07-30, 03:12 PM
Formatting the voting thread presently. Will edit this post when I am finished with the link.

EDIT: Voting thread is up! Also added to the first post here.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?565257-D-amp-D-5e-Subclass-Contest-II-Voting-Thread&p=23261558#post23261558

Ninja_Prawn
2018-07-30, 03:44 PM
New proposal for future contest themes:

The Pen is Mightier than the Sword - Subclasses specializing in stationery combat

:tongue:

MoleMage
2018-07-30, 03:47 PM
Working on fixing the formatting on the whole theme table. For now, the five themes are:

Hold the Line
Subsystems Online
So You Don't Have To
I Read this in a Book, Once
It is Written

EDIT: The Pen is Mightier could be an alternate name for Calling Card in the original post which was a writing theme, but I will add it to the list for now. :biggrin:

Thanatos 51-50
2018-07-30, 03:52 PM
Misspelling my name in the voting thread shows clear anti-me sentiment there, Mole Mage. =P

Also: Future Theme Suggestions: Follow Me! (Sublcasses based on Command and Leadership.)

Ninja_Prawn
2018-07-30, 03:58 PM
So You Don't Have To

All I can think of is this (https://youtu.be/5pDL9QnRF8M). :smalleek:

MoleMage
2018-07-30, 04:02 PM
Misspelling my name in the voting thread shows clear anti-me sentiment there, Mole Mage. =P

Also: Future Theme Suggestions: Follow Me! (Sublcasses based on Command and Leadership.)

It's corrected! I'll be shocked if you were the only one. I really should just copy-paste your names into the table next time.

Follow Me! added to the list!

EDIT: It wouldn't surprise me to learn that whoever originally suggested that theme was basing it on that or another, similar ad (pretty sure like 30% of cleaning products have taglines that are variations of that).

EDIT EDIT: I also added a table tracking number of submissions by class to the first post. I was thinking that for every 5th contest, instead of a theme, we could use a class requirement for the leasts submitted class, and people can pick any previously played theme. For example, if trends continue, the 5th contest would be ranger submissions, and people could submit a ranger subclass corresponding to a theme of their choice from contest 1-4. Thoughts?

Morphic tide
2018-07-30, 05:58 PM
Working on fixing the formatting on the whole theme table. For now, the five themes are:

Hold the Line
Subsystems Online
So You Don't Have To
I Read this in a Book, Once
It is Written

EDIT: The Pen is Mightier could be an alternate name for Calling Card in the original post which was a writing theme, but I will add it to the list for now. :biggrin:

Actually, the idea of "Calling Card" is, well, Calling Cards. Summoning, in particular, through a medium of writing, so broad as to include mercenary contracts, in addition to the more obvious magical symbols with Conjuration spells attached. The offered Pen is Mightier would be covered by Hold the Line. And, because I'm clarifying my contest proposals, the idea of So You Don't Have To is specifically expending resources in replacement of another party member, or using resources to enhance the similar resource use of others, not a general support idea.

MoleMage
2018-07-30, 07:03 PM
Actually, the idea of "Calling Card" is, well, Calling Cards. Summoning, in particular, through a medium of writing, so broad as to include mercenary contracts, in addition to the more obvious magical symbols with Conjuration spells attached. The offered Pen is Mightier would be covered by Hold the Line. And, because I'm clarifying my contest proposals, the idea of So You Don't Have To is specifically expending resources in replacement of another party member, or using resources to enhance the similar resource use of others, not a general support idea.

I will fix these in the original thread and the voting descriptions. I shortened them for transport to this thread and must have lost too much.
And The Pen is Mightier was stationery, not stationary.

Morphic tide
2018-07-30, 07:11 PM
And The Pen is Mightier was stationery, not stationary.
...That's some next-level punnery.

Ivellius
2018-07-31, 09:50 AM
If it makes anyone feel better, I'm pretty sure I'll have to do a Ranger for the next contest. :)

Thanatos 51-50
2018-07-31, 12:02 PM
Hey, if I get any Ranger ideas, I'll make them. And I have been reading Ranger recently to try and figure out how to build a subclass for my own homebrew codex.

Ninja_Prawn
2018-07-31, 12:06 PM
No one likes rangers. This is just a fact of life.

Thanatos 51-50
2018-07-31, 12:15 PM
I mean, Rangers are okay, I guess, for what they are, which is an odd, off-center mix of Rogue and Fighter specialized for the Wilderness.

I's just that, halfway through making one, I always look up and realize "This concept works better as a Fighter or a Rogue."

Ivellius
2018-07-31, 01:14 PM
I mean, Rangers are okay, I guess, for what they are, which is an odd, off-center mix of Rogue and Fighter specialized for the Wilderness.

I's just that, halfway through making one, I always look up and realize "This concept works better as a Fighter or a Rogue."

Well, you get spellcasting, which helps, and I like designing the 11th-level features because it's rare that you get your "expected" damage boost off your class option. (Compare Fighter with Extra Attack [3] and Paladin with Improved Divine Smite, for instance.)

MoleMage
2018-07-31, 01:46 PM
So how do people feel about the theme being "least common class so far" every five contests or so instead of a theme theme? With the caveat that you must adhere to a theme that has already happened in the contest? I'm just spitballing ideas for now, we have two whole contests before contest 5, which comes out to ~3 months (4 weeks contest, 2 weeks voting, plus or minus how long it takes me to get the next thread up), but it seemed fun in my head.

Blackbando
2018-07-31, 01:58 PM
So how do people feel about the theme being "least common class so far" every five contests or so instead of a theme theme? With the caveat that you must adhere to a theme that has already happened in the contest? I'm just spitballing ideas for now, we have two whole contests before contest 5, which comes out to ~3 months (4 weeks contest, 2 weeks voting, plus or minus how long it takes me to get the next thread up), but it seemed fun in my head.

I like the idea. Could be nice to get me (and possibly many others) out of my comfort zone of never touching the Ranger.

Ninja_Prawn
2018-07-31, 01:59 PM
So you mean, an all-ranger contest once every five? :smalltongue: Maybe with an occasional druid-off thrown in?

It might not be a terrible idea to run one contest like that. I'm not sure about doing it on a schedule though.

MoleMage
2018-07-31, 03:05 PM
So you mean, an all-ranger contest once every five? :smalltongue: Maybe with an occasional druid-off thrown in?

It might not be a terrible idea to run one contest like that. I'm not sure about doing it on a schedule though.

I could enforce rotation, so it would be least popular that hasn't already been chosen for this event. We'd cycle through all 12 eventually (on contest...60. 6 years from now, roughly, assuming we keep this going for long enough).

Thanatos 51-50
2018-07-31, 06:49 PM
Some of the fluff is a bit overwrought,

Hey now! You take your COMPLETELY REASONABLE CRITIQUE and get outta here. :smallwink:
In my defense, I was playing a lot of Elite: Dangerous at the time, so my brain was super bored.

Yes, I was on a Sag A* expedition. Why? Is it that obvious?

Morphic tide
2018-07-31, 10:13 PM
Some more Contest ideas:

Scaling Strangely: Subclasses with abnormal scaling factors, I.E having a Fighter subclass that scales effectiveness of offered abilities based on their armor, or a Warlock who gains bonuses based on how much HP they have. Healing that follows some 4e ideas regarding HD expenditure also applies, especially if combined with hit die increases, possibly at multiple levels.

Warriors of Old: Subclasses based on previous editions. The name is a bit of a pun on Grognard, which has a conventional definition of old soldiers, but also gets used for Old School players, primarily AD&D. However, this isn't restricted to stuff like replicating the 2e Sha'ir or Dart Fighter shenanigans, but also stuff like replicating 4e versions of classes and particular noteworthy 3.X build types within a class.

Ninja_Prawn
2018-08-06, 03:57 PM
my opinion here will be really unpopular
...
1st: Mirrorkin Origin Sorcerer by Ninja_Prawn

Not with me it won't! :smallwink:


I honestly don't understand why [Void Patron] doesn't have more votes when all the competition looks so bleak

At a guess: most of the voters are prolific homebrewers themselves, and we're inclined to look at the mechanics first, second and third when evaluating our peers' work. From your other comments, it seems like you're looking to vote for things that capture your imagination, so your priorities are a bit different. As for the Void Patron, I thought it was pretty good. It was one of several that I was considering for my third place vote; that was a very close decision for me.

Ivellius
2018-08-06, 04:22 PM
Ok, so I can already tell by the way everyone else voted that my opinion here will be really unpopular, but, I gotta say what I gotta say. I honestly think this contest is really underwhelming compared to the previus one, with many classes either not doing anything interesting or just not interpreting the theme in a very creative fashion.

I agree with this to a large extent, actually (including when it comes to my own). About half of the submissions were "generic Far Realm" stuff (which seems like it shouldn't be possible, but there you go) rather than trying to find a really unique niche. Partly I suspect that's because there aren't any of those class options to-date and partly it's just the simplest thing to think of. I had been thinking this as soon as the contest closed, though.

Also,while I liked the Void patron pretty well, I think knowing its inspiration made it feel much less creative to me.

Also also, Path of the Center keeps growing on me. I'd actually put it at #2 today rather than #3.

Having said all of that, I would agree that mechanics is so overwhelming as to be basically everything for my priorities. I'd much rather design something boring than something overpowered.

Blackbando
2018-08-06, 05:50 PM
I'm gonna have to agree with what Oncie said, as well; a lot of the entries were pretty bland, for the most part. i swear i'm not biased just because my patron was picked as an example of being good I could actually probably say a lot of strong things about how I feel about a lot of these subclasses, but frankly I don't think most of what I would say is rather kind (it might still be constructive, though, albeit overly rude), so I'll refrain.

It's also why I'm having a hard time voting, since I don't really have strong opinions for any of them (except maybe Mirrorkin, I adore that). I'll probably put my vote up tomorrow-ish, though.

MoleMage
2018-08-08, 06:06 PM
Five days remain on the voting thread, with Ninja_Prawn's Mirrorkin Sorcerer holding a devastating lead. I guess we all want to go through the looking glass sometimes, even when it's weird and terrifying.

In the Next Theme votes So You Don't Have To holds a 3 point lead over Hold the Line, with I Read This in a Book, Once a very close third.

Get your votes in soon before I tally them up on Tuesday next week!

Ninja_Prawn
2018-08-09, 03:46 AM
Five days remain on the voting thread, with Ninja_Prawn's Mirrorkin Sorcerer holding a devastating lead.

We're just waiting for the AP to call the race now, eh? :smallbiggrin:

I'm glad y'all liked this subclass. It was one of those that just came to me in a flash of inspiration, and those tend to be better than the ones I have to put a lot of effort into.

MoleMage
2018-08-14, 09:41 AM
Alright, I'm awake and reasonably caffeinated so let's tally these totals!

Taking third place, with 7 total points earned, we have Fnissalot's Bard College of Constellations! Read the stars, embrace the weirdness of the elder things. Improve your normal bardic inspiration.

In second place, with 12 total points earned, we have Thanatos 51-50's Barbarian Path of the Center! Be heavy. Really heavy. No really, be so heavy arrows curve in flight towards you and enemies can't escape your event horizon.

And in first place, with a whopping 21 total points earned is Ninja_Prawn's Mirrorkin Sorcerous Origin. For when your ancestors went through the looking glass, or into the mirror dimension. Be a perfect mimic. Reflect spells.

Congrats to our three winners and thanks to everyone else who participated!

In the vote for next contest theme, our winner was So You Don't Have To, and our runner-up which automatically gets added to the voting pool next time is I Read this In a Book, Once. I'll be putting the new contest thread up shortly, so keep an eye open!

MoleMage
2018-08-14, 09:51 AM
AAAAND the new thread is up!

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?566491-D-amp-D-Subclass-Contest-III-So-You-Don-t-Have-To&p=23296993#post23296993

Jormengand
2018-08-14, 10:57 AM
So...

VMC Cleric? :smalltongue:

MoleMage
2018-08-14, 11:06 AM
So...

VMC Cleric? :smalltongue:

I would've predicted bard, but cleric probably pretty close to the mark.

Jormengand
2018-08-14, 11:10 AM
I would've predicted bard, but cleric probably pretty close to the mark.

Yah, actually bard makes more sense.

Though invariably, someone will be unable to comprehend how it fits the theme. :smalltongue:

Ninja_Prawn
2018-08-14, 12:22 PM
Am I allowed to enter a subclass for a homebrew base class? And is it a good idea, even if it's allowed?

Because I wrote (well, converted) a whole class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?482608-Zaydos-Princess-Updated-for-5e) around this theme a couple years ago.

MoleMage
2018-08-14, 12:25 PM
Per rule 3, homebrew base classes are allowed provided A: you have permission (it's implied if it's your own class), B: the class was made before the current contest, and C: you provide a link to the source in your submission.

You're solid.

As to it being a good idea...that's up to the voters really.

Ninja_Prawn
2018-08-14, 02:33 PM
Oh, and an addition to the future theme long list:

Hold My Beer - subclasses themed after inns & taverns, pub games, excessive drinking, etc.

MoleMage
2018-08-14, 03:07 PM
Changed it to Hold my Ale! but it's in the list now. Maybe eventually we'll run out of these, but I somehow doubt it.

Fnissalot
2018-08-14, 04:25 PM
I have posted my Community and Collaboration focused cleric domain I have been working on a while for a future project. Any one got any thoughts on it?

BlueHairedKat
2018-08-14, 05:36 PM
I have posted my Community and Collaboration focused cleric domain I have been working on a while for a future project. Any one got any thoughts on it?

Convergence Chain is delightful. Possibly too good, if you can throw concentration from someone who's likely to get hit to someone far from the combat, but it's so flavourful and would be so fun to play.

Thanatos 51-50
2018-08-14, 09:54 PM
I almost want to just post my Witch base class and draw big ol' circles around the Coven of the Hedge for this. Or roll out the Path of the Chieftan Barbarian subclass in that big book o' homebrew I'm making, but I'll be a good boy and do something else.
Maybe a Rogue?
Or a Ranger?

Edit:
Pretty much the exact second I posted this, I had a flash of inspiration.
Monk

Icecaster
2018-08-14, 10:25 PM
Hey guys, I've never done a homebrew contest before but it sounded like a lot of fun, so here I am!

Sooo I finally constructed a subclass that I've had percolating in my mind for a while, and it's a druid circle based on the Selesnya Conclave from Magic: The Gathering. If you've played the game it'll probably make more sense, but I hope I've made it clear enough what the basic idea is based on fluff. Hope everything is balanced and okay.

I'm looking forward to seeing everybody else's submisisons, good luck all! :^D

Thanatos 51-50
2018-08-14, 10:37 PM
First draft of the Way of the Sifu is live.
I should probably add a chart or a line codifying "class or subclass resource" and edit it in, but this'll do for now.

As always, feedback is welcome.

Fnissalot
2018-08-15, 12:21 AM
Hey guys, I've never done a homebrew contest before but it sounded like a lot of fun, so here I am!

Sooo I finally constructed a subclass that I've had percolating in my mind for a while, and it's a druid circle based on the Selesnya Conclave from Magic: The Gathering. If you've played the game it'll probably make more sense, but I hope I've made it clear enough what the basic idea is based on fluff. Hope everything is balanced and okay.

I'm looking forward to seeing everybody else's submisisons, good luck all! :^D

It looks good overall but convoke might be too powerful. You can surpass 9th spelllevel which is never done before what I am aware of, and you can do that with two level 9 spellcasters.

Icecaster
2018-08-15, 10:58 AM
It looks good overall but convoke might be too powerful. You can surpass 9th spelllevel which is never done before what I am aware of, and you can do that with two level 9 spellcasters.

I was worried about this last night actually. I took it down slightly in the hopes it would be better, but I agree. I'm about to cap it at giving a slot level of up to 3rd, that way it justifies the character keeping high level slots for him/herself at later levels but still allows some versatility on what you give. I hope that keeps it in its place a little better.

Thanatos 51-50
2018-08-15, 11:31 AM
How about just adding "A spell may not be increased above 9th level using this class feature"?

Blackbando
2018-08-15, 01:35 PM
First draft of the Way of the Sifu is live.
I should probably add a chart or a line codifying "class or subclass resource" and edit it in, but this'll do for now.

As always, feedback is welcome.

Oh, wow, your subclass is actually quite similar flavor-wise to what I was planning on making (including it being for monk)! I'm still gonna publish my own take on the concept, as mechanically I've got much different ideas on how to handle it.

Also, yeah, I agree; you should add something about what that resource is, since at the moment one might be able to interpret it as being able to refresh something like Action Surge.

Fnissalot
2018-08-15, 02:24 PM
How about just adding "A spell may not be increased above 9th level using this class feature"?

Or, "A spell may not be increased above half of your druid level rounded up." So it scales with your spell level.

MoleMage
2018-08-15, 02:32 PM
I don't know that it is as big a problem as all that. Two Nth level spells are going to be more powerful than one Nth level spell upcast to 2N in most cases. If the feature doesn't allow you to actually cast the higher level spell and only applies to updating it's fine. Even if it allows you to cast higher level spells you still need to be capable of casting that spell level in order to do so (it doesn't let you exceed spells known/prepared limitations).

Though if the latter you might specify that spells above 5th level normally can't be cast in those higher level spell slots, since those are normally restricted per day more than 5th and below.

Icecaster
2018-08-15, 07:24 PM
How about just adding "A spell may not be increased above 9th level using this class feature"?

Or, "A spell may not be increased above half of your druid level rounded up." So it scales with your spell level.

While both of these solutions could be entirely valid in balancing the ability, I quite like the idea of boosting a spell beyond normal limits. I kept the level cap on the slots low to keep it from getting out of hand, but I'd like to keep that mechanical advantage somehow.


I don't know that it is as big a problem as all that. Two Nth level spells are going to be more powerful than one Nth level spell upcast to 2N in most cases. If the feature doesn't allow you to actually cast the higher level spell and only applies to updating it's fine. Even if it allows you to cast higher level spells you still need to be capable of casting that spell level in order to do so (it doesn't let you exceed spells known/prepared limitations).

Though if the latter you might specify that spells above 5th level normally can't be cast in those higher level spell slots, since those are normally restricted per day more than 5th and below.

Haha, it would appear we both had very similar ideas. The intent of the feature was for it to apply only to upcasting. For instance, you couldn't expend a 6th level slot while receiving a 3rd level slot to cast a 9th level spell you know, and you couldn't expend a 4th level spell slot while receiving a 2nd level spell slot to cast a 6th level spell you know. The target of the Help action has to actually begin the casting of the spell before benefiting from convoke.

Personally, I think if I raise the bar too much then combos for spells like Animate Objects and Conjure _______ will be too good to pass up. If a druid can give up all of his high level slots, then he/she would be obligated to do so as a support since that would be really good supporting, which could quite easily lead to dissatisfaction since the druid loses all his time in the spotlight to give another character super-spells. Setting the donation cap low rather than the upcasted cap low means that the druid can still have their time in the spotlight while still effectively supporting in the cases where they are helpful. It also allows the druid to make a more meaningful contribution to the party than being just spell slot bank for the party wizard and using their action every turn to buff the spells of somebody else, only gaining reprieve when somebody isn't planning on casting a spell/casting a spell that can be upcast.

Thanatos 51-50
2018-08-15, 09:05 PM
Oh, wow, your subclass is actually quite similar flavor-wise to what I was planning on making (including it being for monk)!
I am genuinely very sorry. I'm willing to try and think of something else, if it pleases The Court.

Blackbando
2018-08-17, 01:39 AM
I am genuinely very sorry. I'm willing to try and think of something else, if it pleases The Court.

Hey, the way I see it? Just means neither of ours will be able to surpass the other sheerly based on flavor alone or any other outside aspects; instead, our mechanics and our mechanics alone will decide which is better.

that makes it sound a lot more epic than just "we put these two things on a forum and now let's see who votes for them" it sounds like a fight to the death

Ivellius
2018-08-17, 11:04 PM
I am genuinely very sorry. I'm willing to try and think of something else, if it pleases The Court.

I mean, you did yours first. If anything, he should be changing his.

Edit: Actually working on mine today a bit. I'm a bit stuck for two later features (based on what I want to do), but I'm sure I'll figure out something, hopefully more inspired than my last entry.

Ninja_Prawn
2018-08-19, 04:52 AM
I see rangers are as popular as ever. Maybe I'll do one myself, just to prove I can...

Jormengand
2018-08-19, 07:16 AM
Thought for the day: why do 1/3 spellcasters have more spells known than 1/2 spellcasters?

Anyway, VMC bard is up. And it's a little weird, and may well be an exceptionally-powerful option for paladins and rangers, so I may need to dial it back a little for them, but hey, let me know what you think.

MoleMage
2018-08-19, 08:37 AM
Rough draft for the Path of the Blood Shaman is up. I need to come up with a handful more rites, and then look at numbers as they seem really strong out the gate.

I was gonna do a ranger too, but couldn't come up with a compelling theme.

Thanatos 51-50
2018-08-19, 10:39 AM
Is it weird that I kind of want to do a variant multiclass next contest just so Jormengand can't?

Also: I actively tried to come up with a Ranger that fit theme here, too. I want to give the Ranger some love, even if only because WotC didn't.

Jormengand
2018-08-19, 11:38 AM
Is it weird that I kind of want to do a variant multiclass next contest just so Jormengand can't?

Yeesh, I didn't know I'd upset you that badly. I'm sorry if my VMC subclasses offended you, I guess?

Thanatos 51-50
2018-08-19, 11:58 AM
I'm not upset. It's a joke. I'm trying to be funny. Give it a few more contests and I fully expect to see "Oh, look, Thanatos is doing a Monk again. This is my complete lack of surprise."

Ivellius
2018-08-19, 02:23 PM
I see rangers are as popular as ever. Maybe I'll do one myself, just to prove I can...

I'm doing a ranger; it's just not finished yet.

For yours, I think I'd make Combination Attack specify your ally can make a melee weapon attack, though I do see why it's not that way. The 3rd-level features might be a little weak, though I like the theme altogether.

(Also I think your 15th-level feature is hilarious.)

Ivellius
2018-09-12, 10:11 PM
Hate to double-post...but did this die?

MoleMage
2018-09-12, 10:56 PM
No I just got my weeks mixed up. I had the voting thread slated for the 17th, an adjustment I made after realizing I would be traveling on the 11th and which I forgot to update the deadline for.

Deadline extended until the 16th due to my mix-up. Get your last edits in now!

Ivellius
2018-09-13, 08:40 AM
Okay. I was just curious. Does seem that people petered out in this thread, too--I'm sure school starting back / end of summer will have that effect.

MoleMage
2018-09-13, 08:52 AM
The first two contests were like this too. Quiet as it wound down to the end, then really lively for a few days after the new one went up. But end of summer probably is a contributing factor also for students and teachers and parents.

gloryblaze
2018-09-13, 06:09 PM
If anyone has any last minute advice for the Accordion Thief I'll take it :)

Blackbando
2018-09-21, 06:42 AM
So, uh. Is the voting thread going to be posted? Or was it already posted and I'm just dumb and missed it?

MoleMage
2018-09-21, 07:09 AM
So, uh. Is the voting thread going to be posted? Or was it already posted and I'm just dumb and missed it?

I had my Wisdom teeth out this week and have been a little addled. Thanks for the reminder!

Voting thread is here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?569653-D-amp-D-Subclass-Contest-III-Voting-Thread&p=23383018#post23383018

Ninja_Prawn
2018-09-21, 11:32 AM
The thread being quiet might just be a coincidence. I mean, I've just been really busy with work, plus we've been running a kickstarter as well...

MoleMage
2018-09-30, 09:16 AM
Last day for voting! Get your votes in because tomorrow the new contest thread is going up!

It's a tight race with Pathfinder Conclave in 1st by a single point and a four-way-tie for second between Way of the Sifu, Accordion Thief, Way of the Sage, and Blood Shaman.

Blackbando
2018-09-30, 11:02 AM
Circle of the Conclave, on the voting thread, says it's by Ninja_Prawn, not Icecaster, it's actual creator.

Ninja_Prawn
2018-09-30, 11:09 AM
Plus the count isn't up to date. I'm not in the lead any more.

MoleMage
2018-09-30, 11:37 AM
Circle of the Conclave, on the voting thread, says it's by Ninja_Prawn, not Icecaster, it's actual creator.

Fixed! That's my bad, I copy these tables voting thread to voting thread and I forgot to change the name on that line.


Plus the count isn't up to date. I'm not in the lead any more.

I think I missed someone's votes while tallying. Should be fixed now.

Corrected current standings: Icecaster's Circle of the Conclave in the lead with 7 points, followed immediately by Ninja_Prawn's Pathfinder Conclave with 6, then the Mutagenic Sorcerer by Vogie with 5. The Fraternity Domain, Way of the Sifu, Accordion Thief, Way of the Sage, Path of the Blood Shaman, and Grove Guardian all have 4 points, for an impressive six-way tie for 4th place.

MoleMage
2018-10-01, 11:52 AM
Time to call the voting!

In 3rd place, with 5 points, is Vogie's Mutagenic Sorcerer Bloodline. Create strange plant life! Expand your spell list with Druid spells! Graft magical goo onto your allies or enemies!

In 2nd place, with 6 points, is Ninja_Prawn's Pathfinder Conclave for the Revised Ranger. Whisper secret weak points in the ears of your allies! Blaze a trail wherever you go! Block enemy arrows with your face!

And our winner of Contest III, with 7 points, is Icecaster's Circle of the Conclave. Upcast your friends' spells with your own spell slots! Summon copies of your wild shape forms! Become a fountain of fast healing for you and your allies!

In the theme votes, I don't even need to count the points, as I Read this in a Book, Once was overwhelmingly in the lead, while The Pen is Mightier will carry forward into the next round of theme voting. Keep your eyes open for the soon-to-be-posted Subclass Contest IV: I Read this in a Book, Once!

No new votes occurred after my last tally, which made my final count easy enough today I suppose. Just getting the next contest thread formatted and it will be upon us!

Ninja_Prawn
2018-10-01, 01:02 PM
The problem with this new theme is definitely choosing what to do. 90% of my output is pop culture references and just looking at my unpublished drafts, I've got a rogue inspired by the Godfather movies, a fighter inspired by the Shadow Hearts games, a barbarian that's based on Sterling Archer from Archer, a bard loosely inspired by Final Fantasy X-2 and an incredibly random barbarian that references 100% Orange Juice among other things. I'm not sure any of them are contest winners though, so I guess I'll make up something else...

Vogie
2018-10-01, 01:29 PM
Corrected current standings: Icecaster's Circle of the Conclave in the lead with 7 points, followed immediately by Ninja_Prawn's Pathfinder Conclave with 6, then the Mutagenic Sorcerer by Vogie with 5. The Fraternity Domain, Way of the Sifu, Accordion Thief, Way of the Sage, Path of the Blood Shaman, and Grove Guardian all have 4 points, for an impressive six-way tie for 4th place.

Whew! That was close!

gloryblaze
2018-10-02, 01:09 AM
Open to critique on The Heart of the Cards patron.

Design notes:

-Spell Cards was balanced against the wizard's Arcane Recovery. In terms of number of extra spell slots, it starts equal at level 1, is slightly better at levels 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 (assuming Cha 16 at 1st level, bumping to 18 at 4th), returns to being equal at level 7, becomes better at level 8 (assuming Cha to 20), is equal at 9, and is worse from there on. To compensate its power in the early levels, it has some elements of randomness and a negative effect on your action economy (you might not have the spell you want in your hand, and it burns bonus actions in combat to draw for said spell).

-A secondary balance consideration for Spell Cards was the Celestial Warlock's Healing Light. Healing light essentially allows the warlock to cast healing word a number of times equal to 1 + warlock level per long rest, with the option to upcast the spell by burning additional uses. This basically means that Celestial warlocks get 2 additional 1st level spell slots at 1st level, and gain 1 more per level, but the usage of those slots is strictly limited to healing word. Card warlocks get fewer additional 1st level slots, but much greater flexibility in what they can cast with them.

-Destiny Draw uses a 6th level spell slot because the Fiend Pact Warlock's Hurl Through Hell deals 10d10 damage to a single target, which the DMG states is the correct damage output for a homebrewed 6th level spell.

pygmybatrider
2018-10-02, 02:47 AM
First iteration of the Bulwark is up in the contest thread!

Inspired by Telamonian Ajax from the Iliad and his half-brother Teucer, the Bulwark is intended to hit two design points:

1) provide defensive and offensive boosts to a ranged ally
2) be an effective user of thrown weapons

Things I currently like:
- Tower Shield providing three quarters cover. Remember that PCs can already use each other for half-cover.
- Mighty Throw as a 3rd level feature, even though you won't see its main benefit until level 5. You will still have a weapon available to make opportunity attacks with, and it feels thematic.
- Sunder Armour as a mechanic. Requires a successful attack roll, but trades doing damage for inflicting a -1 penalty to AC until the start of your next turn, giving allies a buff against that target. Just not certain about the stacking.
- Deflection as an upgrade of the Shield Bash ability. Feels very fightery.

Things I am currently concerned about:
- the second benefit of Tower Shield. a) should it apply to spell attacks? and b) should it be limited to Str mod per short/long rest? I feel it probably should, but then it's a feature that grants a passive benefit as well as an active one that has limited uses, which feels clunky.
- Shield Bash: linking back to Tower Shield. Should this recharge on a long rest only? It does feel strong to use this 4-5 times per short rest, but then comparing it to maneuvers, which also recharge on a short rest, it doesn't seem that bad.
- lack of a ribbon feature. Two active abilities in Sunder Armour and Shield Bash (two and a half including Tower Shield's reaction) seems bloated. But then again - compared to maneuvers, maybe not so.
- Immovable Object: I am not 100% certain how strong immunity is. But advantage seems too weak for a capstone. I am thinking of dropping it back to advantage and making it the 7th or 10th level feature and reshuffling the others - though 10th and 15th would be rather late for those active abilities to come online. Maybe give this class 'hero points' or something to spend on those abilities - but then we are getting very similar to the battlemaster.

In summary, damned battlemasters!

pygmybatrider
2018-10-02, 03:28 AM
I am going to try my best to keep up with submissions and offer feedback as they are posted, as trying to get through everybody in a mad rush at the end of the base class contest was hectic!

First up, gloryblaze's Heart of Cards patron!


I have memories of the show and cards as a child, but I think I was too old when it came out to really get into it. Regardless, I remember the basic premise, and at a glance this subclass does a really good job of capturing that feel. Let's have a look at each feature:

Expanded spell list: really thematic, a mix between portent/strategy-type abilities and summoning.

Card Shark: a nice ribbon. I think it could probably double your proficiency bonus if you are already proficient with Sleight of Hand from a background or multiclass.

Spell Cards: a bit wordy, but I think I get the idea. You get a maximum of 5 free spell levels, that are chosen at random at the start of the day. I think you could probably get rid of the "lower of the two" clause, as it will only ever come into play in very early levels - though I guess if you roll an 18 with a Tiefling, there is a big difference there. Its a unique feature that I actually really enjoy - I know that most of my players would love the chance to make their own deck of spellcards.

Monster Card: I think this a nice ability, it reinforces the minionmancy theme, and lets you cast some of the stronger spells as an action rather than taking a minute. Elementals and demons still carry their associated risks, so it's not game-breaking.

Trap Card: there's a theme going here where I have to read everything twice - particularly that last part about only being able to play Trap Cards as Trap Cards. That's probably more a criticism of my reading ability than your wording, though. While I love the idea and feel that this would probably be great fun at the table, this is the feature that gives me the most pause, simply because there are so many different ways to use it, and therefore it is really hard to work out its balance. You'd also have to let your DM know which cards are set to which triggers at the start of each session, so it's a bit of extra book-keeping.

Whether the cost of losing the ability to use them as normal spell cards is worth the benefit of casting a spell as a reaction is highly dependent on the combination and the way the day turns out. E.g. Trap Carding Hold Person against the first humanoid to attack a friendly creature within 30 ft of you, or Misty Step when somebody rolls a melee attack against you, is probably always going to work out great.

Destiny Draw: I am sure you meant to put a once per long rest limit on this but it's currently missing. This is a powerful feature for sure, but warlock 14th-level features usually are. They do however tend to be limited in scope - either damage or control, and I'm struggling to think of a situation in which this wouldn't be an incredibly useful tool.

Overall I think you've done a great job of representing a Yu-Gi-Oh duelist within the 5e system. The feature are all fluffy and thematic, and you have nailed down some really interesting mechanical features. I love the spell card feature, and think you've limited its power well. Trap Cards and Destiny Draw aren't 100% for me yet, but I can see your line of thinking and think you are on the right track. Good stuff!

gloryblaze
2018-10-02, 04:11 AM
Thanks for the comments! I've added in the long rest limitation to Destiny Draw, which was definitely meant to be there in the first place. Considering changing Trap Card, but not entirely sure if I will or what exactly to change.

Bulwark Comments:

Tower Shield: The cover seems fine, but the second benefit feels awkward to me. I'm not entirely sure what it's meant to represent in fiction - is the Bulwark actually doing something to assist the ranged attacker, or is it just meant to represent the fact that an archer behind the Bulwark is harder to see due to the tower shield? I would remove the second benefit as written and add one of the following instead:

-change Tower Shield so it grants you 1/2 cover against ranged attacks as well as giving 3/4 cover to the creature behind you; or
-add a clause allowing a creature in the space behind you to use the Hide action, using you as cover

Mighty Throw: I like it. If you feel that the above changes make Tower Shield too weak, I might add a clause doubling the short and long ranges of throwing weapons to this ability.

Shield Bash: I like the idea, but it lacks thematic consistency with similar features already in the game (off the top of my head, the Shield Master feat and the Hobgoblin Warlord's Shield Bash attack). Obviously, it's not necessary for all similarly named features to do the same thing, but it tickles me when features that are the same or similar within the fiction do the same or similar things mechanically. I would probably alter this feature to instead allow for the bonus action attack (1d4 + str, as you already have), but I would make the rider be forcing a Str save against prone (based on the fighter's con or str, probably) instead of disadvantage on concentration checks. This would make the feature nearly identical to the Hobbo Warlord's action, and would make it more thematically in line with Shield Master (in the same way that many Cavalier features are in line with PAM and Sentinel).

I would also probably remove the alternate, difficult-terrain-creating effect for the simple reasoning that a) I can't imagine anyone choosing to burn a use of their BA attack on such a relatively weak option and b) removing it makes the feature less cluttered.

Sunder Armor: Similarly to the above sentiment, I would alter this feature to be more in line with similar existing features. Instead of a temporary AC debuff against any foe, I would probably make it a permanent and cumulative -1 AC (destroying a piece of armor that is reduced to 10 AC), but it would not work against enemies with natural armor or who are unarmored.

Deflection: This feature doesn't make much sense thematically to me. Using your shield offensively should leave you more open to attack, if anything, not less. Since I removed the reaction component of Tower Shield and nerfed Sunder Armor, I would probably change this feature to be stronger. Something like either

-When you or a creature you are granting cover to is targeted by a ranged attack, you can use your reaction to impose disadvantage on that attack; or
-When you or a creature you are granting cover to is targeted by a ranged attack, you can use your reaction to grant that creature a bonus to AC equal to your proficiency bonus

Immovable Object seems fine.

Vogie
2018-10-02, 10:22 AM
Open to Critique the path of the Mad Chemist.

Notes:

I'm not thrilled with the name, but adding more alchemical qualities would raise the expectations of the subclass, so I just stole the character's title.
If you hadn't played League of Legends, Singed's playstyle is different most characters - his AoE poison trail he leaves behind him deals the bulk of his damage, so if you look up a video of him, he looks like he's just running around battle. This archetype will still be a smash-a-fool barbarian, just with the poison as a feature.
The two modes to his poison trail were based off the 5e abilities Poison Spray and Infestation (Singed has a Beekeeper skin).
Instead of 2 lackluster poison-dealing cantrips, I made one do significantly more potential damage (gated by a Con save), and the other do small amounts of reliable damage, as well as generate potential AoOs.
The reason the class gives the ability to use a shield as a weapon is I needed some way to guarantee a frontline character will have a hand free to throw a fool. In LoL, the character only uses shield, but I allowed the use of a light weapon to give the character a TWF feel.
The reason that the Fling feature gives the targeted creature disadvantage on saving throws is twofold - it increases the likelihood that the Poison Spray (chemical tank) damage will land when you toss a person into the cloud, and it also makes it likely that, if you throw a target onto the grease effect from a Adhesive Bomb, they'll fail the dex throw and land prone.
I'm going to edit Adhesive Bomb so that it doesn't make the area difficult terrain for the Barb... should it effect the party too, or just hostile creatures?
Originally Insanity Potion would also include disadvantage on Wisdom saving throws (due to... well, insanity), but that seems REALLY backwards for a front line character feature.

pygmybatrider
2018-10-02, 05:21 PM
Open to Critique the path of the Mad Chemist.


Sorry mate, not sure how I missed this!


I should preface this by saying I've never played League of Legends and have no prior conceptions about how this subclass should feel or play. Your notes were very useful in that regard.

Empowered Bulwark: I like the idea, and think it works as a 3rd level feature in principle. Two suggestions: 1) I think it should include a "while raging" caveat - as this is consistent among all other 3rd level barbarian features, and 2) I think the damage should probably be 1d4 + strength, because you are still getting +2 AC from the shield, and stacking rage damage on top of the small base dice.

Trailing Cloud: I am not sure how I feel about this. My gut instinct is that it is simply too strong an ability to stack on top of base Barbarian features. Compare this to a Storm Herald's aura, which takes a bonus action to activate, and does a maximum of 2 automatic fire damage/1d6 lightning, half on a save to creatures within 5 feet.

I think it would work better if you chose one of those options, subbed in poison damage, and either made it an aura affecting squares in a 5 ft radius, or a line over the path you've travelled. The damage should also probably scale at the same levels as those auras - 5, 10, 15, 20, rather than cantrip levels.

I love that the DC uses Intelligence. Always looking for more ways to make Intelligence viable!

Fling: Note that while raging, barbarians will always have advantage on grapple checks. If you want to add to the 'throwing' potential, maybe double shove length while Raging. "Based on your proficiency and Strength modifiers" is not very specific and will end up with odd numbers like 8 and 11 feet which don't seem to be a part of 5e in general. Giving a thrown creature disadvantage on saving throws is a cool ability that your teammates would love, but I think it is too strong for a level 6 feature - which is traditionally one of the weaker levels in a barbarian subclass.

Adhesive Bomb: Again, level 10 is usually a weaker feature in barbarian subclasses, tending towards fluff/utility. If you're going to keep this here, I don't think the barb should have immunity to the effects of the spell, and I think it should stay as once per short/long rest.

Insanity Potion: Is crazy strong. It grants the biggest draw of Bear totem's 3rd level feature, which is considered one of the strongest features in the game. Temporary hit points are huge on a barbarian - especially one who has resistance to all the damage, and this is a huge boost in mobility to an already-mobile class. Then the damage boost to aura damge. The disadvantage on Int and Cha saves is a big disadvantage in some situations - those saves are rare but killer when they come up. I think you nailed it when you said you wanted Wisdom in there too, but felt it was too limiting. The benefits probably justify disadvantage on Wisdom throws, but nobody wants that because it could shut them down totally.

Overall, I like the idea an Int-secondary barbarian, and some of the mechanical features, but I think there is a lot going on. In one subclass you have:
* a shield bash attack
* a lot of potential damage in a large area
* a suplex throw attack
* a greasebomb
* a one-a-day super-rage

I think there are probably too many active abilities here - I would personally pick which 2-3 I think are the most important to the build and stick with them, as that would help unify the feel of the class, which at the moment feels a bit scattered. I also think the balance of strong to less-strong features is out. 3 and 14 are the big ones for barbarians, with 6 generally being a small passive boost while raging, and 10 being largely utility/fluff.



Thanks for the feedback gloryblaze, I've retooled a few things. Made your suggested changes to Tower Shield. Dropped Shield Bash totally as it didn't fit with the midfielder theme. Made level 10 ability a one-a-round advantage aura to the coveree, and 15 is a reaction to move with your coveree on their turn. I think it fits more with the source material now, rather than just "general defensive buffs".

I kept Sunder Armour as it is for now - I agree that the "stacking up to 3 times" isn't consistent with 5e terminology at the moment, but I also don't think rust monster mechanics work. It'd be a lot of bookkeeping for the DM to know exactly what armour is conferring which bonus, attacking shields vs armour, etc. The design intent is to encourage the Bulwark to stack this as much as possible, and I also want it to work against baddies who arent' explicitly wearing armour or shields. Still needs tweaking, I'm just not sure how at this stage yet.

Onto the pinball wizard!


I like that it's based off a song! And a good one at that.

Rebounding Shot: I was gonna say this is too strong for a 2nd level feature, considering Arcane Archers don't get Curving Shot til 10th, but then I saw its short range and that it's limited to int mod/long rest. Is probably fine that way. Very thematic - you will feel like a real pinball wizard from the get-go.

No Distractions: Probably doesn't need to keep advantage/disadvantage - if you have them, simply roll a third die and take it. A powerful feature to double up with at level 2.

Plays by Sense of Smell: A cool fluffy feature. I like it. Not too sure on the power level of blindsight as I've never really had it come up in my games.

Never Seen Him Fall: I like that this subclass is focussing less on the wizard's spellcasting and more on his maneuvering.

Replay: Very, very powerful capstone. Trying to think of ways to limit its power without destroying it completely - there are just so many great ways to use this. The wording should probably say "feature" rather than special ability.

Fun and interesting subclass, few power concerns, you've ruined the next hour and a half for me as I go listen to Tommy!

gloryblaze
2018-10-02, 06:17 PM
I also really like the pinball wizard! I remember someone bringing up a pinball wizard in a thread in the 5e forum a while back, cool to see it finally got made!

I agree with pygmybatrider's comment on No Distractions - it's a little finicky for me (hypocritical, I know, considering my entry is the DEFINITION of finicky).

As for Replay, I'm mostly fine with it. The Evoker's 14th level ability is quite similar - it maximizes a spell's damage, and max damage is usually similar (a little weaker, to be fair) to double the average damage of a spell. In return for the slightly better damage and the flexibility to use it with non-damaging spells, it burns a bonus action and a spell slot. It seems really well thought out.

The other features are all super flavorful and thematic. I really like this subclass, it's quite polished!

Vogie
2018-10-03, 12:01 AM
I should preface this by saying I've never played League of Legends and have no prior conceptions about how this subclass should feel or play. Your notes were very useful in that regard.

Empowered Bulwark: I like the idea, and think it works as a 3rd level feature in principle. Two suggestions: 1) I think it should include a "while raging" caveat - as this is consistent among all other 3rd level barbarian features, and 2) I think the damage should probably be 1d4 + strength, because you are still getting +2 AC from the shield, and stacking rage damage on top of the small base dice.

Trailing Cloud: I am not sure how I feel about this. My gut instinct is that it is simply too strong an ability to stack on top of base Barbarian features. Compare this to a Storm Herald's aura, which takes a bonus action to activate, and does a maximum of 2 automatic fire damage/1d6 lightning, half on a save to creatures within 5 feet.

I think it would work better if you chose one of those options, subbed in poison damage, and either made it an aura affecting squares in a 5 ft radius, or a line over the path you've travelled. The damage should also probably scale at the same levels as those auras - 5, 10, 15, 20, rather than cantrip levels.

I love that the DC uses Intelligence. Always looking for more ways to make Intelligence viable!

Fling: Note that while raging, barbarians will always have advantage on grapple checks. If you want to add to the 'throwing' potential, maybe double shove length while Raging. "Based on your proficiency and Strength modifiers" is not very specific and will end up with odd numbers like 8 and 11 feet which don't seem to be a part of 5e in general. Giving a thrown creature disadvantage on saving throws is a cool ability that your teammates would love, but I think it is too strong for a level 6 feature - which is traditionally one of the weaker levels in a barbarian subclass.

Adhesive Bomb: Again, level 10 is usually a weaker feature in barbarian subclasses, tending towards fluff/utility. If you're going to keep this here, I don't think the barb should have immunity to the effects of the spell, and I think it should stay as once per short/long rest.

Insanity Potion: Is crazy strong. It grants the biggest draw of Bear totem's 3rd level feature, which is considered one of the strongest features in the game. Temporary hit points are huge on a barbarian - especially one who has resistance to all the damage, and this is a huge boost in mobility to an already-mobile class. Then the damage boost to aura damge. The disadvantage on Int and Cha saves is a big disadvantage in some situations - those saves are rare but killer when they come up. I think you nailed it when you said you wanted Wisdom in there too, but felt it was too limiting. The benefits probably justify disadvantage on Wisdom throws, but nobody wants that because it could shut them down totally.

Overall, I like the idea an Int-secondary barbarian, and some of the mechanical features, but I think there is a lot going on. In one subclass you have:
* a shield bash attack
* a lot of potential damage in a large area
* a suplex throw attack
* a greasebomb
* a one-a-day super-rage

I think there are probably too many active abilities here - I would personally pick which 2-3 I think are the most important to the build and stick with them, as that would help unify the feel of the class, which at the moment feels a bit scattered. I also think the balance of strong to less-strong features is out. 3 and 14 are the big ones for barbarians, with 6 generally being a small passive boost while raging, and 10 being largely utility/fluff.




I made some changes based on your feedback.

I opted to make the 3rd level ability slightly better than Desert Herald... not only because Desert Herald's 3rd level ability is terrible, but also because so many things are resistant to poison damage. I also didn't want to overload a potential DW class with lots of bonus action usage. Also, the Chemical Tank is a Save-or-Suck, which means there's a chance it'll actually suck more. There's a reason no one uses those Cantrips.

I did, however, separate the two. Now the Cloud of poison is "behind me only" while the swarm of insects is centered around the Barbarian. That also makes common sense.

I made the fling a flat 10 feet in any direction, and limited the Adhesive to once/rest. I wanted to keep the "advantage on grappling" in there, even though it is part of the core rules, just to save any arguments

I removed the movement speed AND resistance to magic from insanity potion. It still has a pile of THP, but also added disadvantage to Constitution checks, so this poison-thrower is much more likely to get poisoned while going insane.

pygmybatrider
2018-10-03, 01:25 AM
I made some changes based on your feedback.

I opted to make the 3rd level ability slightly better than Desert Herald... not only because Desert Herald's 3rd level ability is terrible, but also because so many things are resistant to poison damage. I also didn't want to overload a potential DW class with lots of bonus action usage. Also, the Chemical Tank is a Save-or-Suck, which means there's a chance it'll actually suck more. There's a reason no one uses those Cantrips.

I did, however, separate the two. Now the Cloud of poison is "behind me only" while the swarm of insects is centered around the Barbarian. That also makes common sense.

I made the fling a flat 10 feet in any direction, and limited the Adhesive to once/rest. I wanted to keep the "advantage on grappling" in there, even though it is part of the core rules, just to save any arguments

I removed the movement speed AND resistance to magic from insanity potion. It still has a pile of THP, but also added disadvantage to Constitution checks, so this poison-thrower is much more likely to get poisoned while going insane.

Fair point on the Storm Herald auras feeling lackluster - they did end up being a pretty disappointing way to mechanically represent such a badass idea. And you're right about poison and con saves, and it being based on int, limiting its power. The subclass definitely feels like it would be fun to play at the table - I can picture a barbarian madly running around, trying to make as many baddies as possible take the damage.

Looking good :)

MoleMage
2018-10-03, 11:37 AM
I'm torn. Do I make a subclass based on Adrian Tchaikovsky's Shadows of the Apt (Mantis-Kinden as a Ranger Conclave) or one based on Allomancy/Feruchemy from Brandon Sanderson's Mistborn series (probably based Alloy of Law era, most likely as a Monk subclass)?

Or do I do something else entirely? Decision paralysis is upon me.

EDIT: Couple more options: the Prisoner from Dead Cells, the Knight from Hollow Knight. This has not reduced the decision paralysis.

MoleMage
2018-10-12, 11:06 AM
Just a quick check in. How is everybody doing? Got any more subclasses waiting in the wings? Anyone want a feedback pass on their current submissions? Just a couple of weeks to go on this contest.

Ninja_Prawn
2018-10-12, 01:31 PM
I had an idea earlier in the week, but didn't have time to write it up. Something based on the stock Final Fantasy protagonist - you know the kind, with spiky hair, oversized/improbable swords, surprising levels of agility/athleticism, limit breaks/summons, a mixture of idealism & angst, etc. When you think about it, every lead FF character except Terra, Yuna and maybe Zidane fits that template. So I'll probably throw that together tomorrow.

In other news, I was thinking of running a contest soon, maybe while we're voting on this one. The idea would be to revive the Slapdash Subclass Challenge (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?398475-Slapdash-5e-Subclass-Challenge-I-Love-s-In-The-Air) where I give you 48 hours to write a subclass. Is that something people would be interested in?

gloryblaze
2018-10-12, 03:17 PM
I'd participate in that - sounds fun :)

Ninja_Prawn
2018-10-14, 02:29 PM
First draft of Final Hero is up. Feedback is welcome! Though I guess I don't deserve any, since I haven't commented on anyone else's entry... >_>

pygmybatrider
2018-10-15, 04:29 AM
First draft of Final Hero is up. Feedback is welcome! Though I guess I don't deserve any, since I haven't commented on anyone else's entry... >_>

Ask and you shall receive.... 8-)

Unreasonably Large Weapons: I like that this gives small races an opportunity to be badass. Reach is a strong feature to add to a greataxe, or to a 1h battleaxe with a shield, but as the first defining feature, I don't think it's too strong.

Crisis Mode: movement speed is minor and okay. Prof bonus is a decent-to-strong boost. I don't play many frontliners so I can't speak to how often it would trigger.

Hero's Angst: A great ribbon feature. Well done.

The Truth Revealed: I'd probably make this a d20 check (adding Str, Con, Cha, or whatever you feel fits) you make when you would gain the effects of exhaustion, with a scaling DC of something like 10 or 12+the exhaustion level to ignore the effects. Still more than likely to make it to those higher tiers, but seems less gamey than straight up ignoring them. Or a once-per-short-rest ignore one level of exhaustion feature.

Limit Break: is really, really, really strong. A non-Final Hero fighter can make up to 9 attacks at level 20 with Action Surge and TWF/PAM/GWM bonus action attack. A Final Hero can make 14. At reach. Probably with an extra 6 damage thrown in for free. I like using the name as a feature, but I can't really think of a way to limit (no pun intended) the power of this into something workable.

Chosen One: another huge feature, when you are probably already at 20 Str/Dex/Con, right before you get an ASI. Might just be me but it steps a little on the barbarian's toes, as they are the only class so far who can exceed the 20 cap with class features. Maybe you could put Limit Break here, and change it so that the +prof damage applies to all attacks made while Action Surging (maybe still too strong...)

I love your theme, spent way too many hours playing FFX growing up, and think your early features are solid. The last two give me a bit of pause in terms of power though.

In Bulwark news, the features got a re-shuffle and I added a new capstone. Original post is edited in the contest thread. Feeling a lot more Homeric now!

Ninja_Prawn
2018-10-15, 08:17 AM
Thanks for the comments.

Limit Break is too strong for 15th level, isn't it. Maybe I would have been wiser to build the subclass around it as a level 3 feature... but that would mean I lose some of the more thematic features in the mid levels. How about I take the extra bonus action away? That'll bring it closer to where it needs to be.

I'd also point out that all of the other features are below the power curve for martial archetypes - even the Chosen One capstone drew comments of "too weak" from my beta readers. So that should give Limit Break a bit of breathing room.

Ivellius
2018-10-16, 03:00 PM
I'll second most of pygmybatrider's comments on the Final Hero. Some thoughts / suggestions: I wonder if shuffling Chosen One to 10 (after all, it doesn't actually give you the increase, does it?) and bumping the others up wouldn't be bad. The Truth Revealed feels pretty strong to me, even if exhaustion doesn't come up all that frequently. It's not actually strong, but I don't like a feature that just ignores a part of the game like that.

I do think Limit Break is good. My idea for it would be to use after taking your action on a turn (maybe also bonus action?) and just drop your initiative by 20 but giving you an additional turn there. So basically you get an extra turn at the end of the round but have to permanently move there in the turn order. Does that make sense? Wording wouldn't be too hard, I don't think. I'm just concerned about how well it stacks with Action Surge--you use it and anything is dead. My other suggestion might be just to let Action Surges grant an additional bonus action, too, and make it where that happens with every surge (so it's "always" on).

I wrote up a Warlock Patron for this, but so many people have done warlocks I'm not sure that I want to use it. I'll post if I can't think of anything better--I think it's fine but nothing spectacular.

Edited to include feedback for a couple of others:

Path of the Mad Chemist I just don't like as a barbarian path. Mechanically, it's probably fine, but the flavor feels quite off to me. Fling doesn't seem too good except that it has a lot of synergy with allied spellcasters, and it just doesn't really come together for me.

The Bulwark seems solid (heh). I was misreading it at first and thought it granted a lot more cover than it does. However, given that 5e doesn't really "do" facing, I'd probably change the friendly creature benefit of Tower Shield to just designate a single adjacent square that counts as "behind" you. Aristeia seems fine to me, given it's a limited-use window.

Ninja_Prawn
2018-10-16, 04:51 PM
I appreciate your input Ivellius, but those changes don't really appeal to me. Shuffling the order isn't ideal... I put them where they are because fighter 10 ought to skew towards exploration and fighter 18 is more of a combat-relevant feature, you know? I'd prefer to be working with the convention rather than against it. If anything, The Truth Revealed just needs to be scrapped and replaced. I'm just not sure what with. And I was pretty keen on the name, since it's the title of the background music that plays in FFX during that one scene in the Al Bhed Home. :smallcool:

Making Limit Break give an extra turn and then shaking up the initiative order seems like it would be too much of a pain to implement at the table, even if the wording could be made watertight. And just making all Surges grant a bonus action is fine, but too boring to represent moves like Omnislash and Renzokuken...

gloryblaze
2018-10-16, 09:53 PM
Maybe try tying "The Truth Revealed" to Second Wind, similarly to how Limit Break is tied to Action Surge? Something like:

The Truth Revealed
At 10th level, you can reveal a dramatic secret that gives you and your allies the will to fight on. When you use your Second Wind, you and every creature of your choice that can hear you can choose to end one of the following conditions on themself:

1 level of exhaustion
Blinded
Charmed
Frightened
Incapacitated
Paralyzed
Poisoned
Stunned
Restrained

MoleMage
2018-10-17, 03:28 PM
Alright, I'm in a reviewing state of mind so I'm just gonna run through all of the submissions, which I think I've failed to do the last two contests (and which I really should and mean to do every contest).



Empowered Bulwark is clean and straightforward.
For Trailing Cloud, 1 round is a difficult thing to define in 5e. Usually wording is "until the start/end of your next turn" for features that last a single round.
For Trailing Cloud: Hive, what is the area of the effect if you are moving, and what constitutes not moving in game turns (once I end my turn, am I not moving until the start of my next turn, or is it if I don't move at all on my turn?).
Barbarians already get advantage on grapple checks while raging since it's a Strength(Athletics) check. Rest of Fling looks good.
Adhesive Bomb looks good as-is.
Why does Insanity Potion give disadvantage on Con saves? I understand Int and Cha but Con seems out of place. Rest of it looks good.


Overall, a faithful interpretation of source material (though Fling isn't a damage ability, I'll forgive it since DnD works differently) that functions within the expectations of the base class. Good work!




Return of Tower Shield to 5e! Mechanically sound within 5e's more simplified maths. It should probably explicitly state that the bonus to AC against ranged attacks only applies while you use a shield.
Mighty Throw is an odd name for what this feature does, but the feature itself is fine.
I like Steadying Influence and Mobile Cover as-is.
Ditto Immovable Object.
Aristeia's GWM but with thrown weapons is just the perfect end to this class. It's other effects are good too.


Overall, a great subclass for the fighter that fills a niche that no class or subclass fills (throwing weapons) while also being a unique twist on the "defender" archetype.




Expanded Spells: I get all of these except Bigby's hand and detect thoughts which I will assume make sense in source material and I just forgot about them (it's been a while).
Card Shark: Simple but essential.
Spell Cards: So they're pseudo-random long-rest pseudo-spell slots? It's a lot of bookkeeping, but I like it as a mechanic.
Monster Card is good as an upgrade to Spell Cards.
Trap Card counts against the Spell Cards limit, yes? If so, it's good (though I think that playing them out of your hand would be better than setting them up at the start of the day).
Destiny Draw is good, but you had me worried for a minute there that they were getting two actual 6th level spells per day until I reread Spell Cards.



I can honestly say that I never expected this one. I've got a friend who is a fan of the game who I will definitely be sharing this class with.



Rebounding Shot is hard to gauge the power level on. I think it's okay where it is, but it could maybe have more range or no usage limitations (but not both).
No Distractions: What made you settle on 2, specifically? It's a good number, but the feature would look fine to me with any number from 1 to Int mod, so I was curious.
Plays by Sense of Smell: It's good feature and I like that you've included the circumstances when it explicitly doesn't function.
Never Seen Him Fall: Should probably specify that you learn/add the spell to your spellbook if it isn't already there. It could also grant permanent preparation of feather fall (a la domain/oath spells).
Replay: It's a good feature, and since it requires both spell slots and has to be the same spell both times it will be limited by circumstance enough to keep it in line.

If I didn't expect the Heart of the Cards, I doubly didn't expect the Pinball Wizard. It's honestly well balanced and fit into the DnD worldset for how esoteric the source is.



Oh wait this one is me. Any comments I had would be better implemented directly into my class.


Also doubles as roughly 60% of anime protagonists, so you know...versatile.
Unreasonably Large Weapons: Reach sounds strong at first, but really you're just bumping a 1d10 to a 1d12/2d6. Opening up heavy weapons to anyone should honestly have been in the base game (why all the hate for halfling fighters/barbarians?).
Crisis Mode: Sounds good. Proficiency Bonus is not my favorite form of class feature scaling but Cha mod wasn't a great fit either.
Hero's Angst: It's a good ribbon with an amusing title.
The Truth Revealed: Not sure how often it will come up (I've had maybe 2 cases of exhaustion coming up since 5e was a thing), but it's a fair feature since it doesn't prevent the "death" part of extreme exhaustion.
Limit Break: That's... a lot of attacks. Wow. Personally I would have liked to see more specific effects, but there's way too many options to make if you're drawing from the sum total of Final Fantasy protagonists. This is a good one that falls into the framework of DnD well. The wording should clarify that it is optional when you Action Surge (right now it's the first action surge each day RAW).
Chosen One: You should cause this to also increase the ability score chosen, similarly to barbarian capstone. Otherwise it doesn't kick in until the level 19 ASI.

Vogie
2018-10-18, 01:48 PM
Empowered Bulwark is clean and straightforward.
For Trailing Cloud, 1 round is a difficult thing to define in 5e. Usually wording is "until the start/end of your next turn" for features that last a single round.
For Trailing Cloud: Hive, what is the area of the effect if you are moving, and what constitutes not moving in game turns (once I end my turn, am I not moving until the start of my next turn, or is it if I don't move at all on my turn?).
Barbarians already get advantage on grapple checks while raging since it's a Strength(Athletics) check. Rest of Fling looks good.
Adhesive Bomb looks good as-is.
Why does Insanity Potion give disadvantage on Con saves? I understand Int and Cha but Con seems out of place. Rest of it looks good.


Overall, a faithful interpretation of source material (though Fling isn't a damage ability, I'll forgive it since DnD works differently) that functions within the expectations of the base class. Good work!


Reworded Chemical Tank to proper verbiage.
Removed the "moving" clause on Hive, as it was left over from a previous iteration. Hive is always a 5ft aura, while Chemical tank is what lingers.
Fling included the advantage of grapple for two reasons: to forgo any issues on whether or not it is different from an attack, and also to designate what happens with the second attack (as reckless specifies the first attack). If I just jumped to "on the second attack", it'd probably raise more eyebrows.
Insanity potion gives disadvantage on Con Saves because it's likely too powerful without it. Also, it drives you insane. Ideally, it'd give disadvantage on Wisdom, but that would probably make sure no one ever uses it ever.

SleeplessWriter
2018-10-20, 08:51 AM
Hey guys, this is my first time doing anything like this, so I hope I did a good job with it. The Combat Medic fighter subclass is up and ready for critique. I'll try to comment on some other peoples' classes, but it may take a while and I'm not sure how good it'd be since I'm pretty new to all this.
Anyway, here's my thoughts and concerns on the Combat Medic's abilities:

Combat Medicine: This one is pretty straightforward, so my only real concern would be the pseudo expertise, is that too much? Probably not, but it doesn’t hurt asking.
Combat Superiority: I really liked using this since it was a ready made and stable base to build the class’s core abilities from, my only concern would be that since some people think the battle master is overpowered whether that might have skewed the power level of this class too.
Rough Healer: This is signature ability of the class, and is worded so that it can even replace an opportunity attack, but it is also worded so that it itself is not an attack and won’t trigger a lot of other abilities. It’d probably be DM dependent on whether you could use two weapon fighting with an attack action that was used entirely on this ability, potentially being able to heal twice a turn right of the bat. My main concern is how it scales at different levels; is it too strong at low levels but too weak at the higher ones? Too resource hungry?
Imposing Defender: A really great thematic ability with some fun roleplay possibilities, but I worry that I might have made it too powerful. Should I limit it to a single ally instead? Or maybe a number of allies equal to or less than your wisdom modifier? It might not step on protection style’s toes as much that way too, but I didn’t think that’d be too much of an issue given that it’s an ability based on a limited resource. Both of those solutions would also limit the amount of abuse flying PCs, such as feral winged tieflings at low levels, could get out of it too.
Staunch the Bleeding: While not it’s only use, the main use of this ability is for death saving throws, which is one reason why I left the wisdom modifier off this one. It’s a pretty powerful ability, but it’s also pretty limited, so I don’t see anything wrong with it, but you might be able to find some potential abuses.
Reckless Rush: I really like this ability both mechanically and roleplay wise. There’s just so much you could do with it in character, anything from screaming in fury to strike down your comrade’s attacker or shove them off a cliff, to desperately trying to get to your friend’s side to save them before it’s too late. At the same time it’s also pretty powerful, making me wonder if limiting it with the wisdom modifier was enough or if I should take it down to once per short rest, or even once per long rest.

MoleMage
2018-10-25, 12:44 PM
Just a little under four days left for last minute-entries, edits, and what-have-you.

Anyone have any feedback for the Maker of Masks patron?

Also a friendly reminder that we're coming up on contest 5 already! Still planning to do the "least popular class with any of the last four themes" as the theme for contest 5, but if you have other "milestone" suggestions I'd love to hear them too!

Ninja_Prawn
2018-10-26, 01:19 PM
FIVE GOLD RINGS! - Christmas theme
Bunch of Fives - classes focussed on unarmed fighting
Five Star - could relate to luxury or high rank
Five Year Plan - industrial theme
Five-a-Side - sports theme

Ivellius
2018-10-28, 02:50 PM
Didn't have time to do too much else this month, so I'll leave this up for brief response before it closes: Gluttony Domain or Headless Spook Patron? The latter is more closely based on something, I guess (though it's not as interesting mechanically); Gluttony is kinda based on Tahm Kench from League of Legends / Gluttony from FMA but not real close to any specific character. I think it's much more innovative, though.

pygmybatrider
2018-10-28, 03:48 PM
Just a little under four days left for last minute-entries, edits, and what-have-you.

Anyone have any feedback for the Maker of Masks patron?

Also a friendly reminder that we're coming up on contest 5 already! Still planning to do the "least popular class with any of the last four themes" as the theme for contest 5, but if you have other "milestone" suggestions I'd love to hear them too!

Might be a little late, but here it is:



I've never played the Zelda games so I can't really comment on thematics, but the fluff blurb sounds really interesting - here's my take on the mechanics.

Expanded Spells: all seems to be in order. A few utility options which is always nice for a lock.

Maker of Masks: seems like an interesting way to boost your skillmonkeyness/out-of-combat utility, as well as a unique way of scaling via pact magic slot level + Cha mod.

Empty Face: a power boost for masks. Will definitely come in handy for a masklock low on HP or facing a Hold Person/Feeblemind. I assume this is the 6th level feature, but it doesn't say so.

Masksoul: I'm really enjoying the level-up nature of this tree, with each feature improving/adding utility to your masks.

Perfected Masks: a solid capstone feature. While this is always-on, it's also competing with things features like Hurl Through Hell. I'd be tempted to buff many of the options - e.g. Sagely grants +2 to spell attack rolls or a straight +1 to damage (so 4 damage @ 17 w 4 EB rays), Swift could have a BA Dash or Disengage option etc.

New Invocations: It feels like Majora's Curse should have a min: level 5 on it, if only to prevent multiclass abuse. I think the line about "this mask not counting towards your number of masks" is in the wrong section too.

Definitely looks fun to play. Also makes the Zelda games seem creepier than I've ever thought. Good job!







Didn't have time to do too much else this month, so I'll leave this up for brief response before it closes: Gluttony Domain or Headless Spook Patron? The latter is more closely based on something, I guess (though it's not as interesting mechanically); Gluttony is kinda based on Tahm Kench from League of Legends / Gluttony from FMA but not real close to any specific character. I think it's much more innovative, though.

Gluttony sounds really interesting, something I haven't seen in a Cleric domain (or any other subclass) before. I'm unfamiliar with either of your examples, but there are plenty of gluttonous characters in literature to justify its place in this contest - Rendara from Conan the Barbarian, Baron Harkonnen from Dune, Rufus from Street Fighter, the pigs from Animal Farm, Jabba the Hutt...

In Bulwark news, I've updated my post in the contest thread with the final version. I changed Mighty Throw, as the way it was written it had no effect for a non-dual wielding thrown weapon user, and the Bulwark will ideally always be using a javelin+shield. It became GWM but for thrown weapons, giving Bulwarks a good offensive and defensive base from the get-go, and Aristeia got prof. bonus to damage for the minute instead of the GWM option. Artwork also got updated to something more dynamic and less textbooky, if less Ajax-the-Greaty.

MoleMage
2018-10-28, 09:13 PM
Might be a little late, but here it is:



I've never played the Zelda games so I can't really comment on thematics, but the fluff blurb sounds really interesting - here's my take on the mechanics.

Definitely looks fun to play. Also makes the Zelda games seem creepier than I've ever thought. Good job!




I corrected the formatting concerns and moved Majora's Curse to 5th level (and added that this patron is a prerequisite for all of the new invocations). I didn't upgrade Perfected Masks, just because the amount of versatility and the fact that all of these bonuses stack with things like Rod of the Pact Keeper, magic gear, etc.

I will point out that really, the games overall aren't...this creepy. They all have their moments, but even the Happy Mask Salesman who inspired this subclass has his creepiness played up by fans (he's still pretty creepy though). Majora's Mask (the game, not the item) is a little heavier on the creepy fare than the others though.

MoleMage
2018-10-29, 07:50 AM
Voting thread is up!

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?572472-D-amp-D-Subclass-Contest-IV-Voting-Thread&p=23469858#post23469858

Since the next contest is a mini-milestone, the number of theme options is expanded. I took two of Ninja_Prawn's "five"-based suggestions above, plus the Odd Man Out (it wasn't rangers, it was paladins) idea, and mixed it with three from our standard list.

Ninja_Prawn
2018-10-29, 02:53 PM
I'm surprised no one else came up with any 'five' themes. You guys are supposed to be creative types! :smalltongue:

Anyway. I'm gonna go ahead and kick off that slapdash contest, even though only one person expressed an interest. Who's ready to reach for the stars (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?572510-5e-Slapdash-Subclass-Challenge-II-Reach-for-the-Stars)?

I don't enter my own contests as a rule, but I will make an exception for this one if there are fewer than 3 entrants this time tomorrow.

MoleMage
2018-10-29, 04:11 PM
I'm surprised no one else came up with any 'five' themes. You guys are supposed to be creative types! :smalltongue:

Anyway. I'm gonna go ahead and kick off that slapdash contest, even though only one person expressed an interest. Who's ready to reach for the stars (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?572510-5e-Slapdash-Subclass-Challenge-II-Reach-for-the-Stars)?

I don't enter my own contests as a rule, but I will make an exception for this one if there are fewer than 3 entrants this time tomorrow.

I did ask for milestone suggestions kinda late in this cycle. I'll remember to start taking them earlier if we get to 10 and still have a decent amount of steam.

And I'm working on a Sorcerous Origin for your slapdash contest. I don't remember if I responded interest but I had interest.

EDIT: It's posted. It isn't inspired, but I think it works (and I still have 48 hours to make edits if it doesn't).

pygmybatrider
2018-10-29, 04:49 PM
I'm surprised no one else came up with any 'five' themes. You guys are supposed to be creative types! :smalltongue:

Anyway. I'm gonna go ahead and kick off that slapdash contest, even though only one person expressed an interest. Who's ready to reach for the stars (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?572510-5e-Slapdash-Subclass-Challenge-II-Reach-for-the-Stars)?

I don't enter my own contests as a rule, but I will make an exception for this one if there are fewer than 3 entrants this time tomorrow.

Love the idea of this contest. Been wracking my brain this morning for something star-related - I thought maybe a Balance-style Druid circle, but after the shaman I need a break from WoW-inspired homebrew. Maybe a David Bowie-style “star power” Bard, but that seems a little on the nose.

I think I have a couple ideas for a more literal interpretation of the theme - focusing on the “reach” part. A “Way of the Yogi” monk based on Dhalsim from Street Fighter - who can actually reeeeeeach for the stars - or maybe a rogue subclass focussed on reaching places they shouldn’t through things like grappling hooks and macguyvered rebreathers.

Will sit down later on while bub has a nap and see how much I can get through!

In other news, voting for this thread is a tough split again - there are 4 entries I really like that are competing for places. Voting might have to take a backseat til this new competition is over!

EDIT: just submitted my Oath of the Eclipse to the slapdash contest - I think I was subconsciously pushed towards it by the lack of paladin oaths in the other contests. I'll be damned if the Team Rocket rogue doesn't take the cake though - that was inspired.

pygmybatrider
2018-10-31, 07:44 AM
Ahhhh, indecision! For the slapdash contest, I have revisited the reaches-difficult-places rogue, and I think I love it - the theme, the feel, how it would play...The Oath of the Eclipse Paladin is probably more mechanically sound, though...11 hours to decide....what to do, what to do....

Vogie
2018-10-31, 07:51 AM
Anyway. I'm gonna go ahead and kick off that slapdash contest, even though only one person expressed an interest. Who's ready to reach for the stars (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?572510-5e-Slapdash-Subclass-Challenge-II-Reach-for-the-Stars)?


This is super-fun, thanks!

Ninja_Prawn
2018-10-31, 08:54 AM
I have to say, the response has been much better than I expected.

Well, it's about time I voted on the main contest. Or at least read over the entries...

Man_Over_Game
2018-10-31, 09:52 AM
way of the moon walker:
level 3: Star step:
level 6: Starfall:
Shooting star strike
level 17: Mastery of moonlight:

shooting star conclave
sword of the arcane order
weavespeak
shooting star strike
spell shatter
starlight vision
starstorm


And THEN, A RIVALRY WAS BORN!

Unavenger
2018-10-31, 04:53 PM
And THEN, A RIVALRY WAS BORN!

Ha, I didn't even notice until you mentioned it! I was rushing to get the subclass done before I had to go to sleep, so I slapped together a bunch of Shooting Star and Mystic Fire abilities, and the Sword of the Arcane Order feat, from 3.5 and then made up a couple of others to fill in the rest of the space. Hope it's ended up decent...

Man_Over_Game
2018-10-31, 05:42 PM
Ha, I didn't even notice until you mentioned it! I was rushing to get the subclass done before I had to go to sleep, so I slapped together a bunch of Shooting Star and Mystic Fire abilities, and the Sword of the Arcane Order feat, from 3.5 and then made up a couple of others to fill in the rest of the space. Hope it's ended up decent...

@Unavenger I really hate to be the bearer of bad news, but there's a chance that it might be disqualified, due to the fact that it's not belonging to the official PHB Ranger.

Ninja_Prawn
2018-10-31, 06:00 PM
@Unavenger I really hate to be the bearer of bad news, but there's a chance that it might be disqualified, due to the fact that it's not belonging to the official PHB Ranger.

Official ruling: I'm going to allow it on a technicality. 'Ranger' is one of the PHB classes, after all, which is all I asked for in the rules. Personally, I consider the revised ranger to be the one true ranger anyway.

Revised ranger conclaves are generally compatible with the standard ranger anyway, you just swap out the 5th level ability for Extra Attack.

Blackflight
2018-11-01, 06:19 AM
2. Starfire Conclave by Blackflight. I love the spell list and the ranged Smite effect of Starfire Conclave, although I wish the wording was inclusive of crossbows as I think the subclass is a perfect fit for a red-cloak-and-pointy-hat hand crossbow inquisitor character, and also melee weapons for the poor unfortunate TWF/GWM ranger. Starfall combining with an upcast Moonbeam would be a heck of a lot damage if your DM lets you target the 'corner' of a grid to hit up to 4 targets. Overall thematically strong and nicely worded.



Thanks for the feedback. This was obviously done in a rush :D I quite like the outcome so I wanted to expand it a little:

• Starfire arrows renamed Starfire bodkins: Now applies to all ranged weapon attacks. I agree this needs to apply to more than arrows. However, I don’t like adding the effect to melee attacks – I wanted this to be a ranged equivalent to the paladin (if you don’t want to focus on ranged weapons you shouldn’t pick this subclass :D - Paladins exist! )
• Starfall now requires concentration to maintain (you can no longer use it and moonbeam at the same time). The damage possibly needs to be nerfed, but considering its like call lightning (3rd level spell), only lasts a minute, is once per short rest and a lategame ability I think it is sort of justified. The big strength is that it casts using a bonus action rather than an action (allowing you to still make weapon attacks) which is really strong however. In the end, this needs playtesting.

pygmybatrider
2018-11-01, 06:40 AM
Thanks for the feedback. This was obviously done in a rush :D I quite like the outcome so I wanted to expand it a little:

• Starfire arrows renamed Starfire bodkins: Now applies to all ranged weapon attacks. I agree this needs to apply to more than arrows. However, I don’t like adding the effect to melee attacks – I wanted this to be a ranged equivalent to the paladin (if you don’t want to focus on ranged weapons you shouldn’t pick this subclass :D - Paladins exist! )
• Starfall now requires concentration to maintain (you can no longer use it and moonbeam at the same time). The damage possibly needs to be nerfed, but considering its like call lightning (3rd level spell), only lasts a minute, is once per short rest and a lategame ability I think it is sort of justified. The big strength is that it casts using a bonus action rather than an action (allowing you to still make weapon attacks) which is really strong however. In the end, this needs playtesting.

Understood on wanting to keep the smite ability to ranged attacks! Without playtesting to prove it, I think the damage of Starfall is probably fine as-is. You want your capstone ability to be powerful - that's what capstones are for. There are wizards out there Overchannelling, and sorcadins quickening BBs for super smites, and druids summoning hordes of forest friends. And, after all, it is the ranger we're tacking this ability on to... ;)

MoleMage
2018-11-01, 08:17 AM
Doing the midweek tally. Looks like pygmybatrider's Fighter: The Bulwark leads with 10 points early, with nickl_2000's Pinball Wizard (there's got to be a twist) right behind at 9 points, and the Gluttony Domain by Ivellius coming in 3rd at 6 points. That said, there's still 10 days left on the voting period so an upset isn't out of the question!

Blackflight
2018-11-02, 02:00 PM
2nd Vote: Starfire Conclave. It really hits the "Star" aspect very well with its light abilities. My main concern is that some of the spells available are a bit redundant with the stealth removal, and that the entire class focuses around explicitly ranged combat. The Monster Slayer, for example, is full of abilities that work better with range, but can also be used in melee in a pinch. In addition, being restricted to ranged combat can be a bit...dull, considering most turns are going to be generally limited to "Shoot" or "Shoot Harder" with the class abilities. The Paladin, who this subclass is likely based off of, has a lot of decisions to make in melee combat (who to engage, where to move, when to cast support concentration spells, when to Divine Smite or when to Spell Smite, when to use Channel Divinity, etc), but ranged combatants don't have as many decisions to make. In contrast, the Arcane Archer or a Dexterity Battlemaster have a lot of different decisions to make with ranged combat. It does do a great job of reflecting the star aspect and owning it, as well as being an alternative to the Paladin, I just wish it had more decisions to make at range and was less niche against stealthed enemies (who often don't stealth past round 1).



I've continued to work on the subclass after the contest and these are some very good points. I like the idea of limiting the smite effect to ranged attacks since the paladin's smite is melee only. However I do agree that ranged combat can be sort of dull. I buffed the ability by making it pierce the initial target. This means that there are a lot more tactical decisions to make and the player is rewarded for good positioning (consequently punished for bad positioning as you can end up hitting your allies).

Starfire bodkins:
When you take this feature at 3rd level, you can choose to imbue your projectiles with radiant fire that pierces through your target. When you hit a creature with a ranged weapon attack, you can expend one 1st- level spell slot to deal 2d6 radiant damage to the target, in addition to the weapon’s damage. Following, each creature standing in a 20 feet long and 1 feet wide line directly behind the initial target (following the path of the projectile) takes an amount of radiant damage equal to the initial target.
The damage is increased by d6 radiant damage and the length of the line increased by 10 feet for each spell-level higher than 1st, to a maximum of 5d6 radiant damage and 50 feet line.

This change does however make the wording more complex and "fiddly". It also makes the subclass overall stronger so I don't know if it is perhaps gone over the top and needs some sort of tweaking.

In regards to adding more depth to the lunar flare ability, I thought about adding ways in which you can blind creatures affected by the ability. However, I couldn't come up with a simple solution that didn't make the feature overpowered.

Man_Over_Game
2018-11-02, 03:15 PM
I've continued to work on the subclass after the contest and these are some very good points. I like the idea of limiting the smite effect to ranged attacks since the paladin's smite is melee only. However I do agree that ranged combat can be sort of dull. I buffed the ability by making it pierce the initial target. This means that there are a lot more tactical decisions to make and the player is rewarded for good positioning (consequently punished for bad positioning as you can end up hitting your allies).

Starfire bodkins:
When you take this feature at 3rd level, you can choose to imbue your projectiles with radiant fire that pierces through your target. When you hit a creature with a ranged weapon attack, you can expend one 1st- level spell slot to deal 2d6 radiant damage to the target, in addition to the weapon’s damage. Following, each creature standing in a 20 feet long and 1 feet wide line directly behind the initial target (following the path of the projectile) takes an amount of radiant damage equal to the initial target.
The damage is increased by d6 radiant damage and the length of the line increased by 10 feet for each spell-level higher than 1st, to a maximum of 5d6 radiant damage and 50 feet line.

This change does however make the wording more complex and "fiddly". It also makes the subclass overall stronger so I don't know if it is perhaps gone over the top and needs some sort of tweaking.

In regards to adding more depth to the lunar flare ability, I thought about adding ways in which you can blind creatures affected by the ability. However, I couldn't come up with a simple solution that didn't make the feature overpowered.

I love this change. I could really see this get some cool effects. I'd probably rewrite it as something like

"When you hit a creature with a ranged weapon attack, you can expend one 1st level spell slot to enhance it with moonlight. The creature, and every other creature in a straight 20ft line behind it, takes 2d6 Radiant damage. If this feature deals 15 damage or more to a creature, you can choose to reduce it by that much damage to blind that creature until the start of your next turn".

2d6 will hit 7 on average, ranging between 2 and 12,

3d6 will hit 10.5 on average, ranging between 3 and 18.

4d6 will hit 14 on average, ranging between 4 and 24.

5d6 will hit 17.5 on average, ranging between 5 and 30.

So the only way to consistently blind someone is to spend a 3-4+ level spell slot. Also considering that this would scale on a crit, you basically get a super-effect when landing a critical hit, like some magic weapons.

pygmybatrider
2018-11-03, 03:13 AM
I like the way the Starfire Conclave is evolving now. Fun to see the good things that can come out of such a quick turnaround contest!

For posterity's sake, here's the rogue archetype I was going to submit instead of the Oath of the Eclipse. I think it's less polished, but more fun.

Homebrewery link: http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/r1Qg4_Gwh7





Star Explorer

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/51b3dc8ee4b051b96ceb10de/t/56c35a8c8259b583cc4687bf/1455643290009/?format=1500w

For some, exploring is a hobby - something they do in their free time, in between jobs, or get dragged into by their friends. For others, it is work - they are paid to excavate ruins, retrieve lost artifacts, or clear out squatters.

There is a third category, however. For these brave (or foolhardy) souls, exploring is a way of life - a passion, a burning desire inside themselves to be outdoors or underground, to overturn new stones, to climb to unexplored heights.

These explorers, star explorers, are so called because they have reached the pinnacle of their profession. With nothing more than their trusty tool belts and their years of experience, they trek the jungles, ruins, and islands of the world, looking for ever more exciting and dangerous places to sharpen their craft.

It is no surprise that star explorers often find themselves in less-than-desirable situations, and most of the hardship suffered during any particular journey will often come down to having to extricate themselves from whatever mess they have managed to land in.

Utility Belt
Starting at 3rd level, you are never without your trusty tool belt. In it are several useful items that you can use to reach - or escape - dangerous and exciting places. As long as you have access to your utility belt, you can use a bonus action to produce one of the following effects. Only one effect can be active at any given time. Producing a new effect while another effect is still active ends the old effect.

Grappling hook. You gain a climbing speed equal to your walking speed.

Rebreather. You can hold your breath for up to an hour before needing to take a breath.

Jump boots. Your jump distance is tripled.

Snow shoes. You can ignore the effects of non-magical difficult terrain.

Lucky Escape
Also at 3rd level, you can use the bonus action granted to you by your Cunning Action feature to attempt to escape from a grapple.

Extendable Blade
Beginning at 9th level, you have expanded your collection of tools outside your belt and now carry them everywhere - including your hands. As a bonus action, you can trigger the mechanism that keeps a long knife hidden along your forearms.

You can use the blade as a weapon. You are considered proficient in its use, and the blade deals 1d6 piercing damage and has the reach and finesse properties.

In addition, while the blade is extended, you have advantage on all checks made to escape grapples, and any Strength (Athletics) checks made to climb difficult surfaces or maintain your grip on a sheer surface like a cliff or a wall.

Anti-Gravity Belt
At 13th level, you have upgraded your utility belt with arcane magic or sophisticated technology that defies the laws of physics. You can cast levitate on yourself at will.


Star Power
Beginning at 17th level, your exploits in the field of exploring have become legendary. You have a knack for turning up in just the right place at just the right time to save the day.

When you roll initiative, you can choose to treat the die roll as a 20. On your first turn, you can use a bonus action to teleport to a point you can see within 60 feet. The first attack roll you make on your first turn is made with advantage.

Ninja_Prawn
2018-11-08, 08:26 AM
Quick reminder for y'all that voting in the slapdash contest closes soon, so get your votes in! Looking at you, Blackbando, Vogie and Unavenger...

MoleMage
2018-11-08, 09:14 AM
Voting for the month-long subclass contest closes soon too everyone. I haven't made it mandatory yet but I'm considering it with how few votes it's been getting the last two contests.

Ninja_Prawn
2018-11-08, 10:14 AM
My theory is that, with the small population of voters in these contests, the "you can't vote for yourselves" restriction creates an unfair advantage to any entrant that doesn't vote. That's why I'm a fan of the "you have to vote to be eligible to win" clause. But obviously it's up to the host for any given contest to set the rules for it.

MoleMage
2018-11-08, 10:55 AM
My theory is that, with the small population of voters in these contests, the "you can't vote for yourselves" restriction creates an unfair advantage to any entrant that doesn't vote. That's why I'm a fan of the "you have to vote to be eligible to win" clause. But obviously it's up to the host for any given contest to set the rules for it.

This is a very good point. I'll put in the mandatory voting requirement on the next contest voting thread.

Ivellius
2018-11-08, 12:10 PM
Voting for the month-long subclass contest closes soon too everyone. I haven't made it mandatory yet but I'm considering it with how few votes it's been getting the last two contests.


My theory is that, with the small population of voters in these contests, the "you can't vote for yourselves" restriction creates an unfair advantage to any entrant that doesn't vote. That's why I'm a fan of the "you have to vote to be eligible to win" clause. But obviously it's up to the host for any given contest to set the rules for it.

While I do agree with this general principle of enforced voting, I must point out, to be fair, that the current top 3 all have submitted votes for others' entries.

pygmybatrider
2018-11-11, 05:53 AM
Congrats MoleMage! I guess you could say that your stellar entry was the star of the show... ;)

And talk about a quick turnaround - less than 2 hours from thread creation to submission. Faster than the speed of light? Shot out of the gate like a rocket? There’s got to be more of these in her...

That was a blast (hhehe), thanks to Ninja Prawn for starting it and everyone who entered!

MoleMage
2018-11-11, 10:05 AM
It's the last day to vote, so get your vote in if you haven't already. (I need to do that myself.)

And thanks to Ninja_Prawn for running the slapdash contest during this voting period. Hopefully they will do another one down the road, because that one was quite fun.

MoleMage
2018-11-11, 10:09 AM
Congrats MoleMage! I guess you could say that your stellar entry was the star of the show... ;)

And talk about a quick turnaround - less than 2 hours from thread creation to submission. Faster than the speed of light? Shot out of the gate like a rocket? There’s got to be more of these in her...

That was a blast (hhehe), thanks to Ninja Prawn for starting it and everyone who entered!

I think now I'll go back and tweak Stellar Ray to what it was originally, (2d6/4d6/6d6/8d6, or maybe 2/3/4/6), seeing as the most common complaint about the class during voting was "feature is nice but not strong enough".

You haven't used any gravity puns yet. I couldn't escape the pull of the contest.

MoleMage
2018-11-15, 06:40 PM
How come nobody told me I had failed to start the next contest? I've been thinking I still had time all week!

Votes are tallied, and it looks like it went so:

In 3rd place, with 10 points, we have pygmybatrider's Fighter Archetype: The Bulwark! Defend your allies! Throw spears at people!

In 2nd place, with 11 points, we have Ivellius's Gluttony Domain for clerics! Eat your allies (it's for their own good!) and your enemies (it's for your own good!).

And in 1st place, with 12 points, we have nickl_2000's Pinball Wizard for, uh...wizards! Rebound your spells! Earn replays! Rock out!


Congrats to our winners, and thanks everyone who submitted entries or votes for this contest. I will put together the next contest shortly, and our winner for theme was: Five Star! with 7 points. We have a tie for runner up at 3 points a piece between Keep It Simple and Bunch of Fives, so both of those will appear on the next round of voting.

Contest is tallied! I'll be making edits to the first post of this thread and posting the new contest thread over the next few minutes, so keep tuned!

New thread is up! Contest V: Five Stars (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?573883-D-amp-D-Subclass-Contest-V-Five-Stars)

I realize that for many people the month of December is difficult to find free time in. If at least three people comment either here or in a private message to me that they wish for it, I will extend this contest through to December 30 instead.

In fact, given the nature of people being busy, I am going to make this an official rule henceforth; three extension requests and I'll add two weeks to the contest time (but not more than two and I won't extend voting).

theVoidWatches
2018-11-15, 09:44 PM
Wow, the new contest was perfect for the attempt at a warlock warlord I had been putting together!