A good devil?

[Ryblackadder]

So I’m running a campaign that has a lot to do with heaven, hell, the abyss, and the aftermath of a great battle between all three. I am wondering if you think it’s possible for a devil, for example say a Cambion, to become good or at least neutral with enough time? Seeing as angels and even the children of good gods can fall to darkness I assume it possible, if unlikely, that a devil might turn over a new leaf. I would at least think a devil has a better chance than a demon as, from tome of foes, it makes out devils to believe themselves as necessary evils fighting the forces of the abyss. So in your opinion do you think it is possible for a devil to become good under the right circumstances? And if so, which devils are capable? Lemurs are probably too far gone but could a cambion, a half breed, Find goodness to be appealing?

[Pex]

You're the DM. If you want there to be a Redeemed Devil then one exists. The only justification you need is you're the DM and you say so.

[Millstone85]

I would go with the PHB's take on this...
If it somehow ceased to be lawful evil, it would cease to be a devil. and then think about what the creature would become. Maybe something akin to a tiefling.

[Rusvul]

It seems the standard for fallen angels is that usually, they don't fall on their own: they're corrupted. I'm all for symmetry. The backstory that (IMO) makes the most sense for a good devil is sort of the opposite of corruption: some celestials got their hands on a devil and persuaded and/or magicked her to turn good.

If, in your games, outsiders like Devils, Demons, Angels, and Archons are the literal, perfect incarnation of their alignments, then I think that "reverse corruption" might be the only thing that makes sense. OTOH, if your outsiders are just very strongly inclined towards an alignment--if devils are creatures of evil, rather than being evil made flesh and blood--then perhaps this one devil is just different for whatever reason. Humans generally have moral codes of some kind or another, but a few individuals are born without one. If your devils are more humanlike, just with alien and evil psychology, then I don't see why there wouldn't be a few rare "broken" devils who have morals recognizable by humans.

Basically, yeah, do whatever you want, like Pex said. But a good devil is highly unusual, I think it pays to put some thought into the nature of devils, and exactly why and how this one ended up being good. (If it's a major character in a serious-ish game, at least. Otherwise it might not be worth the effort.)

EDIT: I'm fairly certain that "outsiders are the perfect incarnation of their alignment" is the rules as written take on things. Personally, I prefer my outsiders a little more human, I think it makes them more interesting characters. Do whatever you like, you're the DM.

[Naanomi]

For the most part, a Devil that becomes good wouldn’t be a Devil for long... they would either transform into a different type of Outsider or (more rarely) become a unique being... note that the process of ‘ascending’ is much harder than ‘falling’, part of the corrupting nature of Evil

[Gryndle]

in 1st and 2nd Ed it was possible for a cambion to be born good or neutral rather than evil. They typically didn't have long lifespans though. Though back then they were demons/tanari and not devils...so do with that what you will


edited: tanari not baatezu (which was 2Es idea of devils. I had the names backwards)

[Millstone85]

Though back then they were demons/baatezu and not devils...so do with that what you willTechnically, 5e cambions have neither the demon nor the devil subtype. They are just fiends.

[Pex]

Motivation:

A devil likes to make contracts with people to sell their soul for things. Trouble is all the Devils are doing it. It's hard to get rich in Hell where currency in Hell is souls. He also notices that heroes like to send devils back to Hell where they're trapped for a year and a day or Asmodeous punishes them for their failure or some reason he doesn't want to go back.

The devil decides instead of trying to snag that one big deal he thinks long term. Getting a lot of easier little deals will add up. He decides to provide for things a person wouldn't sell their soul for but would sell a prized possession. The idea is repeat customers would eventually sell their soul, but in the mean time the devil acquires material wealth and influence on the Material Plane World but not at such a big stink heroes are looking for him to smite into oblivion. Asmodeous doesn't mind because the devil never gets the soul, but he does since they go to Hell anyway for dealing with the devil. Asmodeous is willing to let the devil do has he pleases on the Material Plane. There in lies Asmodeous' weakness in losing his hold on the devil.

The devil is making a killing, figuratively speaking, with all the deals he's making if he notices he never does get to buying souls he doesn't care anymore. Soon he's making deals for non-Evil things. Not Good, perhaps, but not Evil. He's a Broker of sorts. Information, objects of value, favors. He gets so into it he eventually forgets he's a devil. He's a Businessman. Getting the deal done is what's important. As time goes by and his past Evil deals are forgotten or overlooked, heroes start coming to him for deals. They need information, objects of value, favors to deal with some Evil threat. He feels Important as he's needed for people to take care of situations. He likes being Important. He's hobnobbing with other Important People of the Planes. Helping people becomes second nature. It defines him. He's become Lawful Good.

[apepi]

I can see a devil ending up in a contract that makes him do good things but he hates it.

[Maxilian]

Aren't most devils corrupted humanoid souls?

[Ganymede]

We already have 5e lore examples of devils becoming chaotic evil and of angels becoming lawful evil.

This is not exactly a far fetched idea.

[BBQ Pork]

Pop Culture reference: Television series: "The Good Place", in which (amongst other things) a Devilish figure becomes somewhat sympathetic to the tortured human souls.

Given that in the mortal workplace, people lose their zest for their jobs, perhaps after centuries of the devilish workplace, even the occasional devil could too.

[Mercurias]

Might be fun to see a group of PCs “corrupt” a fiend, but given their sense of the passage of time, they might just be finishing the job of turning a demon after generations of heroes and ages tried to make him finally cave to Millenia of soul searching.. Bonus points if the change has an effect of any warlocks the Fiend has at the time.

[Tanarii]

I would go with the PHB's take on this...

PHB p122
If it somehow ceased to be lawful evil, it would cease to be a devil.
and then think about what the creature would become. Maybe something akin to a tiefling.
Interesting. I always read that as they would cease to exist. But seeing your point, it can pretty clearly also mean it changes to a different kind of outsider matching its new Alignment.

[PeteNutButter]

Zariel is in the new book. She is a pretty demonic looking "angel" that fell.

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2018/05/dd-check-out-zariel-from-mordenkainens-tome-of-foes.html

So going by that idea, you could take your "ascended" demon and make it look more angelic. Replace bat wings with feathered ones, and scales with skin, etc.

[Maxilian]

Zariel is in the new book. She is a pretty demonic looking "angel" that fell.

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2018/05/dd-check-out-zariel-from-mordenkainens-tome-of-foes.html

So going by that idea, you could take your "ascended" demon and make it look more angelic. Replace bat wings with feathered ones, and scales with skin, etc.

I still think that's not a good reference, unlike devils, angels are rarely created out of humanoid souls, while most devils are created that way (starting as lemure), so unless the devil came to be by the plane itself, i think it could be easier to "redeem" one.

[Millstone85]

Aren't most devils corrupted humanoid souls?I have been told that it is more like a devil is made from a humanoid soul, which is wholly consumed in the process. The devil is not the late person in any way, shape or form.

I do find that to be a surprising aspect of the lore. It means the Nine Hells are no afterlife at all, just a place that mortals feed with their sins.

[Unoriginal]

Note that Devils are *not* immune to the alignment-changing effects of some of the Planes, not even the good ones.

Still, while a Fiend could become good, as others said, they'd stop being a Fiend, and it'd be a close-to-unique situation.


I have been told that it is more like a devil is made from a humanoid soul, which is wholly consumed in the process. The devil is not the late person in any way, shape or form.

I do find that to be a surprising aspect of the lore. It means the Nine Hells are no afterlife at all, just a place that mortals feed with their sins.

This is correct, although the evils the soul commited do have an impact to an extent.

[Kane0]

You might be interested in the Tales of Wyre.

[hamishspence]

This is correct, although the evils the soul commited do have an impact to an extent.

It may also depend on the nature of the pact, if any. Mortals who go to the Nine Hells without a pact will always become lemures initially.

Mortals who made pacts with certain archdevils might possibly become something other than lemures.

I'd suggest that devils that get heavily involved in neutral planar politics - the kind of devil that visits the planar towns and argues in taverns with angels - are most likely to cease being devils. They get exposed to other points of view more.

They might still count as fiends for a while - just not devils - at least until they get some other Creature Type, like Celestial.

[DeadMech]

Is it possible? Sure. It might not be common and it might not be permanent though. Everyone likes a succubus paladin but when you've spent your entire life subsisting off the abuse or very fabric of other people's souls and enduring the abuse of anyone powerful enough to unleash it, you're not likely to have an easy time of being a good person. Especially when that life has been longer than most empires and maybe even a few landmasses.

And the good guys would be nuts to just trust you or even simply leave you alone. They've been tricked before by people they thought had good intentions.

[hamishspence]

Is it possible? Sure. It might not be common and it might not be permanent though. Everyone likes a succubus paladin but when you've spent your entire life subsisting off the abuse or very fabric of other people's souls and enduring the abuse of anyone powerful enough to unleash it, you're not likely to have an easy time of being a good person. Especially when that life has been longer than most empires and maybe even a few landmasses.

And the good guys would be nuts to just trust you or even simply leave you alone. They've been tricked before by people they thought had good intentions.

I suspect the places where redeemed fiends are most likely to thrive, are "truce zones" like planar towns on the Outlands, metropolises like Sigil, etc.

Keep in mind that succubi aren't all ancient. Because they reproduce among themselves, new succubi come into existence. An orphaned succubus infant would be a good candidate for "they haven't earned execution" attitudes amongst the Forces Of Good.

Cambions and succubi are not strictly speaking devils though.

Even the cambion offspring of an archdevil (as opposed to the offspring of a succubus) will be a "un-subtyped fiend".

[SirGraystone]

Zariel still is not a bad example, she's an angel who enjoy fighting so much that she got involve into the Blood Wars. You could have just has as easily a devil, who's tired of the eternal war and try to leaves it behind.

[lxion]

As said: you are the DM, so you can choose.

A Devil that has been cursed to do good, or one that chooses to do good to harass other evil beings are the first things that come up for me.

[Unoriginal]

Note that a Devil could do a good action without being of a good alignment.

It'd be unusual, but nothing stops an Ice Devil to, say, repay someone who showed them mercy without string attached, or to let non-important war prisoners go when it'll bring the Devil no benefit, out of respect for an enemy general. That doesn't mean the Devil doesn't engage in horrible acts all the time, but an exception here and there is possible.

It'd be exceedingly rare, however, because Devils are extremely self-serving.

[Naanomi]

Most ‘ascended’ fiends historically end up Neutral... going all the way to Good is pretty tough

[MilkmanDanimal]

Lemurs are probably too far gone but could a cambion, a half breed, Find goodness to be appealing?

Just need to quote this because the typo of "Lemures" to "Lemurs" makes me think of the Nine Hells as a much more cuddly, adorable place.

Crawley in Good Omens is very much an example of a devil who probably first shifts to Neutral Evil in that he's hung around humanity so long he's begun to like some of them, and wants to keep them around for his own mostly selfish reasons, and then stands up and fights against them. He's likely pretty Neutral at the end of it.

If a devil who becomes neutral or good is no longer a devil, fine. They're just a fiend who's now neutral or good, and I'd think they'd remain a fiend, regardless of alignment. I mean, if angels can fall, then, logically, it seems devils could float, right? A devil could get tired of the Blood War or all the bureaucracy of hell, and just want to go do something else.

[M Placeholder]

I can see a devil ending up in a contract that makes him do good things but he hates it.

In Planescape Torment, that actually happens.

Trias, an Angel, tricked a Cornugon (a Greater Baatezu) called Fhjull Forked Tongue, into a deal in which he literally cannot do anything evil and bound to undertake acts of goodwill, and as a result, the fiend has feld the Nine Hells and is hiding out in the Outlands. He's still Lawful Evil, but he cannot do anything evil, and as a result of this, he's not a happy bunny in the slightest, and will take every opportunity to insult Fall from Grace (the reformed Succubus - in 2nd edition, Succubi and Incubi were Demons).