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retaliation08
2018-05-23, 07:10 PM
I'm working on a character for a 3.PF game. The character was an old Brass Dragon from the City of Brass. He was somehow banished to the material plane and memory wiped, waking up as an amnesiac human boy. The goal is to create a +1 template that exhibits his Draconic side. I don't want any ability score modifiers, and I feel like the rest of the template is overcompensating for that fact.

Fallen Brass Dragon (bare bones, no flavor text yet)

Sand Digger:
You acquire retractable Claws on your hands and feet, 1d6 Med; 5ft./HD Burrow speed. Max 30ft. or base move speed if less than 30 ft.

Brass Dragon Senses:
Low-lightVision;Darkvision 60ft.

Brass Dragon Defenses:
Vulnerability to cold; Immunity to Sleep/Paralysis/Fire

Brass Dragon Skills:
Gather Information, Bluff, and Survival are always class skills for you.

Brass Dragon Magic:
Speak with Animals at-will; You can use each the following SLAs 1/day beginning at the indicated HD: Endure Elements 1HD, Suggestion 5HD, Control Winds 9HD, Control Weather 13HD, Summon Djinni 17HD

Brass Dragon Breath:
You acquire two types of breath weapon. You can use your breath weapon 1/day. Fire breath: 60ft. line, 1d6/2HD (Reflex half DC 10+1/2HD+Con mod); Sleep Breath: 30 ft. cone, (Will DC 10 +1/2 HD + Con mod)

So does this seem balanced for a +1LA Template? How could I change it to achieve +1ness? How about for a +2LA?

Thanks!

Nifft
2018-05-24, 03:08 AM
You want someone who is "a human boy", with claws... but he thinks he's a normal human? How does that work?

If you want this to be plausibly ignorant of its inhuman nature, then it's probably best to focus on defensive stuff rather than attacks.

The breath weapon is not worthwhile at 1/day.


What's the intended class for your character?

Grim Reader
2018-05-24, 03:08 AM
I'm working on a character for a 3.PF game. The character was an old Brass Dragon from the City of Brass. He was somehow banished to the material plane and memory wiped, waking up as an amnesiac human boy. The goal is to create a +1 template that exhibits his Draconic side. I don't want any ability score modifiers, and I feel like the rest of the template is overcompensating for that fact.

Fallen Brass Dragon (bare bones, no flavor text yet)

Sand Digger: You acquire retractable Claws on your hands and feat, 1d6 Med; 5ft./HD Burrow speed. Max 30ft. or base move speed if less than 30 ft.

Brass Dragon SensesLow-lightVision;Darkvision 60ft.

Brass Dragon Defenses:
Vulnerability to cold; Immunity to Sleep/Paralysis/Fire

Brass Dragon Skills: Gather Information, Bluff, and Survival are always class skills for you.

Brass Dragon Magic: Speak with Animals at-will; You can use each the following SLAs 1/day beginning at the indicated HD: Endure Elements 1HD, Suggestion 5HD, Control Winds 9HD, Control Weather 13HD, Summon Djinni 17HD

Brass Dragon Breath: You acquire two types of breath weapon. You can use your breath weapon 1/day. Fire breath: 60ft. line, 1d6/2HD (Reflex half DC 10+1/2HD+Con mod); Sleep Breath: 30 ft. cone, (Will DC 10 +1/2 HD + Con mod)

So does this seem balanced for a +1LA Template? How could I change it to achieve +1ness? How about for a +2LA?

Thanks!

I don't know if this helps, but I've been working at a similar concept: A Dragon cursed to human form, and having to make his way with only a remnant of his power. This is what I came up with (requires two feats at level 1) :

Race: Changeling, Feats: Racial emulation: Kobold, Dragonwrought. Class: Sorcerer. The sorcery and minor shapeshifting are the remanants of his Draconic power, he has the Dragon type, and qualifies for some rites later on. Dragonwrought can be pretty broken, but it doesn't have to be.

retaliation08
2018-05-24, 07:23 AM
You want someone who is "a human boy", with claws... but he thinks he's a normal human? How does that work?

Well, I am not totally sure. The Draconic feats seem to apply that this is possible. Ultimately, the reasoning and mechanics of his fallen status is up to the DM. It may have been out of punishment, to hide and protect from a threat, to weaken him for later killing, or any other wild idea the DM has. I want to be surprised.

I think he is really still mostly dragon, like semi-permanently alternate formed, but is regaining his power over time. He might not discover most of his draconic and class features until he really needs them. I can easily imagine any of the magic stuff carrying over to his new form, but so much of being a dragon seems form dependent: Natural armor, natural weapons, breath weapons, elemental immunity and vulnerability, senses. Without any of those things, its hard to even imagine playing a draconic character.

He is amnesiac. I'm not exactly sure what this entails, but it is or will soon become obvious that he is dragonish. The hook is more about not understanding how or why that is the case.


If you want this to be plausibly ignorant of its inhuman nature, then it's probably best to focus on defensive stuff rather than attacks.

I agree in a way. The claws are there because I couldn't imagine a normal human with a burrow speed, and couldn't imagine this character without a nightly small burrow lair to rest in with his trinkets.


The breath weapon is not worthwhile at 1/day.

Yes. I considered scaling the uses by HD, but the more uses it got, the template just seemed like it was putting DFA as a template on a character. Also, the sleep breath is pretty strong. I had the sleep breath because I was originally using the Draconic Breath feat, but I have been unsure if that or claws makes much sense with his new anatomy. I do like the Draconic Breath feat, but it makes no account for sleep breath, which is governed by a Brass Dragon Lineage, which is garbage. Additionally, the Half-Dragon template's breath weapon doesnt scale and is only 1/day.


What's the intended class for your character?
The intended class is bard, using DFI or Blazing Blades from PF because its weaker. It has spontaneous charisma based casting like sorcerer and will be made for sublime chord to get sorcerer casting. Like brass dragons, the character is all about the talk but mostly about the song. He desires a captive audience and/or accompaniment for his dragonsongs. He is meant as a support build to make the party look good by giving them extra damage and the occasional autocrit. The ECL is 2-4, and the DM auto-buys of Templates. LA +1 means starting with a level 2 character instead of level 3. I am also using the Young Creature PF template that is -1 CR but doesn't seem like an equivalent counterbalance to a +1 LA template.

Edit: I had a thought. If this granted the dragon type, it would allow for Alter Self into low CR dragons at level 4. That may be a functional way around some of the anatomical issues. Also, something about qualifying for draconic feats might be a subsitute for some of these abilities.

jqavins
2018-05-24, 03:00 PM
For myself, I would take a different approach. First of all, I wouldn't call this a "template" per sť; that word implies that it may be applied to any, or at least to many creatures or characters. What you're making is a one-off, and discarding the word "template" may help to maintain the one-off mentality.

I would start, when he's a boy, with nothing that makes his appearance different from human. But, as you've done with Brass Dragon Magic, the abilities emerge with advancing character level, or with age and growth.
Fred the Dragon Boy (Mostly bare bones, not much flavor text yet)
Fred was an old Brass Dragon from the City of Brass. He was somehow banished to the material plane and memory wiped, waking up as an amnesiac human boy 9 years of age. Fred lives as an orphaned street urchin.

Each of the following characteristics will gradually emerge as Fred advances in age and ECL. The (Age/Level) are shown after the name, and the characteristic emerges when either one is reached.

Sand Digger (19/7):
Fred will acquire retractable Claws on his hands and feet, 1d6 Med; 5ft./HD Burrow speed. Max 30ft. or base move speed if less than 30 ft.

Fred instinctively wants to sleep in corners, ditches, small rooms, or other places which resemble burrows. Until his claws emerge, he will seek out such places to sleep, with his meager possessions gathered around him, whenever possible.

Brass Dragon Senses (9/2):
Fred already has Low-light Vision and Darkvision per his true draconic nature. Thus far he has not come to realize that not all human children have this.

Natural Armor: (9/2 and up):
Fred's skin is already unnaturally tough, though again he does not know that he is not normal. He has a natural armor bonus of +1. This armor will increase by another +1 for every character level or for every two years of age. For example, if Fred reaches ECL 3 while still nine years old, his natural armor will improve to +2. When he reaches 11 years old, it does not improve to +3; it would have increased at that age to +2, but that advancement has already been made. It is increased to +3 when Fred reaches ECL 4 or 13 years old.

Brass Dragon Defenses:
Vulnerability to cold (9/2)
Immunity to Sleep (13/4)
Immunity to Paralysis (17/6)
Immunity to Fire (21/8)


Brass Dragon Skills (9/2):
Gather Information, Bluff, and Survival are class skills for Fred.

Brass Dragon Magic:
Speak with Animals at-will (9/2)
Fred will be able to use each the following SLAs 1/day beginning at the indicated age or ECL:
Endure Elements (9/2)
Suggestion (15/5)
Control Winds (23/9)
Control Weather (31/13)
Summon Djinni* (39/17)


Brass Dragon Breath:
Fred will acquire two types of breath weapon. He will use his breath weapon 3/day.
Sleep Breath(25/10): 30 ft. cone, (Will DC 10 +1/2 HD + Con mod)
Fire breath (35/15): 60ft. line, 1d6/2HD (Reflex half DC 10+1/2HD+Con mod)


Incidentally, why Summon Djinni? If Fred (and other brass dragons) come from the City of Brass, shouldn't he get Summon Efreeti?

retaliation08
2018-05-24, 03:27 PM
Summon djinni was on the srd for brass dragon and I wasnt thinking.

Still looking over your feedback, thanks for responding :)

retaliation08
2018-05-24, 06:41 PM
For myself, I would take a different approach. First of all, I wouldn't call this a "template" per sť; that word implies that it may be applied to any, or at least to many creatures or characters. What you're making is a one-off, and discarding the word "template" may help to maintain the one-off mentality.

I would start, when he's a boy, with nothing that makes his appearance different from human. But, as you've done with Brass Dragon Magic, the abilities emerge with advancing character level, or with age and growth.
Fred the Dragon Boy (Mostly bare bones, not much flavor text yet)
Fred was an old Brass Dragon from the City of Brass. He was somehow banished to the material plane and memory wiped, waking up as an amnesiac human boy 9 years of age. Fred lives as an orphaned street urchin.

Each of the following characteristics will gradually emerge as Fred advances in age and ECL. The (Age/Level) are shown after the name, and the characteristic emerges when either one is reached.

Sand Digger (19/7):
Fred will acquire retractable Claws on his hands and feet, 1d6 Med; 5ft./HD Burrow speed. Max 30ft. or base move speed if less than 30 ft.

Fred instinctively wants to sleep in corners, ditches, small rooms, or other places which resemble burrows. Until his claws emerge, he will seek out such places to sleep, with his meager possessions gathered around him, whenever possible.

Brass Dragon Senses (9/2):
Fred already has Low-light Vision and Darkvision per his true draconic nature. Thus far he has not come to realize that not all human children have this.

Natural Armor: (9/2 and up):
Fred's skin is already unnaturally tough, though again he does not know that he is not normal. He has a natural armor bonus of +1. This armor will increase by another +1 for every character level or for every two years of age. For example, if Fred reaches ECL 3 while still nine years old, his natural armor will improve to +2. When he reaches 11 years old, it does not improve to +3; it would have increased at that age to +2, but that advancement has already been made. It is increased to +3 when Fred reaches ECL 4 or 13 years old.

Brass Dragon Defenses:
Vulnerability to cold (9/2)
Immunity to Sleep (13/4)
Immunity to Paralysis (17/6)
Immunity to Fire (21/8)


Brass Dragon Skills (9/2):
Gather Information, Bluff, and Survival are class skills for Fred.

Brass Dragon Magic:
Speak with Animals at-will (9/2)
Fred will be able to use each the following SLAs 1/day beginning at the indicated age or ECL:
Endure Elements (9/2)
Suggestion (15/5)
Control Winds (23/9)
Control Weather (31/13)
Summon Djinni* (39/17)


Brass Dragon Breath:
Fred will acquire two types of breath weapon. He will use his breath weapon 3/day.
Sleep Breath(25/10): 30 ft. cone, (Will DC 10 +1/2 HD + Con mod)
Fire breath (35/15): 60ft. line, 1d6/2HD (Reflex half DC 10+1/2HD+Con mod)




So I really like what you've done with this stuff. It almost feels like a bloodline form UA, but better. I think I can use a lot of it, though some is too high level to get to.

Couple points:

1. I am not sure how I feel about the sudden acquisition of Immunity without resistance or bonus first.I think I could simulate that with draconic feats though, and then retrain them later.

2. Natural armor feels like it scales too fast. It ends up being a about the same as An adult brass dragon at about the same HD.

3. With these abilities being acquired by both age and levels, how would you suggest handling the -CR Young template when he comes of age? Losing it will net him a size increase, +4 Str and Con, and -4 Dex. Would it work to include the ability modifications as part of the "template?" The metallic dragon classes from Dragon Mag #20 had ability score increases as part of the progression, which was based on the standard monster array of 11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10, and the ability scores at each dragon age and HD.

4. Not calling it a template is one thing, but if its not, then its just a bunch of free stuff, that is only minorly balanced by the -CR template that will eventually go away. I guess I can always self nerf if I or the DM feels the need.

5. How should this affect type? Is dragon type too much? Dragonblood subtype?

Thanks again for all the work. If you feel inclined, please address these points. It all looks well thought out and I'll go over it with my DM.

jqavins
2018-05-24, 07:10 PM
I may have more later, but here are a few thoughts.

2. Natural armor feels like it scales too fast. It ends up being a about the same as An adult brass dragon at about the same HD.Actually, that was the goal. Start out with very little, and progress to "dragon-like" when level reaches dragon hit dice numbers.


3. With these abilities being acquired by both age and levels, how would you suggest handling the -CR Young template...I wouldn't. One thing I meant to add to what you had (and then forgot) is that at some point he will regain his draconic shape change ability. From that moment on, he's a dragon and all the rest is, as we say in my career field, "overtaken by events." Until then, he is functionally not a dragon, and you don't go by dragon rules. Needless to say, when he regains this ability, somebody is going to catch hell!


4. Not calling it a template is one thing, but if its not, then its just a bunch of free stuff, that is only minorly balanced by the -CR template that will eventually go away. I guess I can always self nerf if I or the DM feels the need.I didn't mean to imply that it shouldn't come with an LA. Sorry if that was unclear.