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GybeMark
2018-05-30, 01:32 PM
Hi folks,

Occasional GM here, running a one-off adventure.

I'm having a heck of a time coming up with some arguments for an NPC to make, so I figured that some of the most creative RP community out there might have a few ideas in mind...

The hook for the adventure is that an NPC has discovered a way to sever the world/plane/whatever from magic entirely. The PCs are powerful enough to stop him, but (after fighting their way to him) the NPC is going to try his best to convince the PCs that he's right, and that the world should be severed. A simple personal argument ("A wizard killed my wife, therefore magic is bad!") is pretty lame. I'm going for something which will really make the PCs think "gee, he's got a point...". In a perfect scenario (HA!), I'd like the PCs to actually debate among themselves whether the world in general is or is not better for having magic in it, and whether they have the authority to sever (or prevent from severing) magic from the world.

The problem is, I suck at articulating arguments in a convincing way. What would be your best "magic is bad for the world" argument, and how would you go about defending it? Have any of you folks had a character (or NPC) who was militantly opposed to the very idea of magic, and why did they feel this way?

(throwaway campaign setting, so I am actually interested to see if my players choose to keep magic in the world or not, knowing they're not going to be playing in the setting again and don't have to worry about breaking game mechanics).

EDIT: Many thanks, folks! These are AWESOME ideas. Time to start writing some short speeches based on some of these points, and see which ones come out as really compelling.

Thanks again, and may you never lose your daggerboard when your boat turns turtle.

Kaptin Keen
2018-05-30, 03:10 PM
Maybe he's psionic? And feels that it would be better for us, as a species, to use our innate inner power, rather than borrow dangerous powers from the cosmos.

Or maybe he's against wild and uncontrollable powers that frankly do more harm than good?

Or maybe it's an equality thing - only the top 1% of the top 1% have any real magic, and they can lord it over all the rest of us, for no really meaningful reason other than 'might makes right'.

Hell, maybe he's prophetic, and he's seen the coming magipocalypse, and the only way to avoid it is to not have magic.

Florian
2018-05-30, 03:14 PM
Just a thought:

Magic is a thing that was discovered rather late in the development of civilizations. With the rise of magic, some strange things happened, that went unnoticed at first: First, Aberrations started to get spawned, the undead came later, then, when we're nearing the Tippyverse levels of magic proliferation, the Hollow Ones started to show up en masse, animals and humanoid children born without a soul.

The hitherto unknown fact is, magic is powered by devouring souls of the unborn. While you need magic to fight the monsters, this is also the root cause that created the monsters in the first place and the simple act of fighting your way thru to the BBEG killed the souls of a generation of children.....

hymer
2018-05-30, 03:37 PM
The kind of personal power that can be accumulated by wizards and the like is simply untenable. How many of the world's potentially ragnarokesque catastrophes have had to do with magic? All of them, I bet. Get rid of magic, and the world will be a lot safer, and it will be harder for someone to set themselves up as an undying or undead tyrant. You know it will happen sooner or later.

The Jack
2018-05-30, 04:43 PM
Best methods


the whole anti elite shtick, as discussed before. Go for it, Comrade.

The whole "anti enemy of civilisations state". Demons, undead, dragons, aberrations, Gnolls, elves... Wouldn't it be better if the fatherland would never again suffer these?

Jay R
2018-05-30, 06:30 PM
"I have seen into the future, and though the vision is clouded, I know that some day, some great wizard will learn how to destroy entire cities at once. This power must not be allowed to develop."

And if the PCs agree with him, and successfully eliminate magic, he can say, "It's done. Now that future wizard Oppenheimer will never be able to develop his terrible weapon."

denthor
2018-05-30, 07:42 PM
Magic was given to us to tempt us towards the easy and quickest to power. Everyone who has ever become powerful has come to a bad end or sent others to a bad end in the quest for power.

With each use you draw power from a source that corrupts everyone around you.

Steal from darksun plants die or people get sick with each spell.

WindStruck
2018-05-30, 09:22 PM
He could have the crystal ball "I have seen the future" schtick and blame magic for it. Or, take the opposite direction. He's studied history immensely, and every so often, magic use becomes extremely advanced, and then there has been some world-wide apocalypse, be it devastating wars that killed nearly everything, planar invasions, ripping the fabric of the universe, etc...

And so therefore, the only way to end this cycle is to stop the source of all these problems: magic.

Question for you: So you want a really good argument for the NPC to be doing this and convincing the PCs. ....do you actually want your PCs to agree with him? Is everyone going to be ok shutting down all magic for good? What if some members of the party agree with his argument, and some others don't?

Jay R
2018-05-30, 09:57 PM
What if some members of the party agree with his argument, and some others don't?

From a story and suspense point of view, that's the best possible result.

Dragonexx
2018-05-31, 01:01 AM
One very good argument against magic is that it makes an egalitarian society basically impossible as now you have individuals who can challenge societies monopoly on force.


You have to remember, when dispensing justice, that social structures are very different in D&D than they are in real life. In real life, a single person cannot fight society and win, and cannot do significant damage without a large amount of effort, planning and preparation that can be detected and foiled. In D&D land you have necromancers who can raise an army of spawn creating undead, super-widened spells can obliterate entire villages, dragons can rage across the countryside burninating crops and people, and high level characters can seriously just go Dynasty Warriors on armies. How can any legal and court system handle people like this?

Say a 12th level warlock busts down commoners shop because they happened to have a magical reagent they wanted. What can a legal system do against people who can use illusions and enchantments and shapeshifting and summons, without relying on their own high powered people, and then having to trust that those people have their best interests at heart?

WindStruck
2018-05-31, 01:07 AM
One very good argument against magic is that it makes an egalitarian society basically impossible as now you have individuals who can challenge societies monopoly on force.

You could still have extremely high level fighters, rogues, and monks running amok, and now without magic... well, it would still be pretty darn hard to stop them too.

Fortis
2018-05-31, 02:14 PM
"I have seen the future!" Said the wizened old wizard. "Indeed, I have seen many futures. Many possible paths for mankind to take in distant years to come. In some they thrive, in some they stagnate, and in some they perish to the last man. But do you know the most marvelous future I have seen? It is the one without magic! Now I know what you are thinking. 'This old man is mad. He will say any falsehood to sway us.' Let me counter with a question. What causes illness?"

"Such a simple question, and yet so difficult to answer, is it not? No, I dont know either. Nobody knows, despite it being such a common occurence. It is not a curse nor a doing of gods or spirits. It's a natural force of thus world. But in this marvelous future I saw, mankind discovered what does cause illness. They understood it. And with that underatanding came new medicines, the likes of which would be miraculous to us. Pox and lepers and plauge were a thing of the past. They had no easy magic shortcut to use, so they studied and experimented and learned. And because of that they surpassed what magic can do today."

"Don't you see? Magic makes us stagnate. We rely on wizards and priests and sorcerers to give us the quick and easy way out! Without magic, there will be hardships yes, but mankind will learn because of them. Mankind will delve into the secrets of the natural world and use that knowledge rise to glorious heights that not even the gods could envision! They discover why fire burns. Why water falls from the sky as rain. Why trees and crops can grow with just soil water and light. Why we age and fall ill. They discover why the moon hangs in the sky and why the stars twinkle and why the sun glows! Yet none of this will come to pass as long as we rely on the crutch and heavy yoke that is magic. So for the good of mankind, nay for all races, I will remove this yoke from us."

parryhotter
2018-05-31, 04:46 PM
Very interestingly.

The Jack
2018-05-31, 04:49 PM
Get rid of magic to have science

Yeah but then I can't have my +3 Vorpal helicopter.