Help Making a Sahuagin PC race (5e)

[LudicSavant]

Looking for suggestions for statting up Sahuagin as a PC race in 5e, since I haven't found any implementations that caught my fancy floating around the internet already.

A couple initial thoughts on Sahuagin traits:
- They have a predisposition for mutation, and so a customizable race (like warforged was back in the day) or a variety of subraces seems ideal. It would be really cool if anyone could come up with a decent mechanic for having four arms.
- Natural armor and weapons are basically ribbon abilities. Even Monks don't gain a meaningful benefit from 5e's implementation of Natural Armor (http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/rules-answers-january-2016).

A couple design goals:
- Should be accessible to a variety of classes, rather than pigeonholing. It's okay if this is accomplished through 'subraces' or not. Should at the very least be a competitive choice for Wizards, Clerics, and Fighters.
- Should be competitive against the likes of variant humans, yuan-ti purebloods, etc. Basically, I prefer to shoot for the higher bar for power balance.

[Blackbando]

It would be really cool if anyone could come up with a decent mechanic for having four arms.

While I don't have time to help design the full race, I can at least offer two suggestions on the four arms trait. Either:

A: Handle it similarly to Middle Finger of Vecna's Thri-Kreen (http://mfov.magehandpress.com/2015/07/thri-kreen.html), where the secondary arms are somewhat useful, but aren't as powerful as your primary arms.

B: Handle it how I personally would, which is as follows:
Four Arms. You have four arms and four hands. You can use each of these arms as you normally could any other arm, however, if you are wielding a weapon in two hands and a shield in another hand, you cannot gain the benefits of the shield, due to the weapon's size getting in the way of your defense.

Is there a better way to word my version? Most likely. But, the mechanical standpoint is still fairly clear; four primary arms can be interesting, but people seem to be utterly terrified of them. I don't understand why, exactly; I've heard the reasons of "it's like giving them extra attack" or "they can then two-weapon fight with greatswords/mauls", but, by RAW, they can't unless you specifically say they can. You can hold a longsword in each hand but can't TWF with them without Dual Wielder, after all. Now, to be fair, most people don't negate the shield bonus for their four primary arms trait, and that's also a usual balance concern, but, that's why I put that restriction. Is it one that makes sense, fluff-wise? Maybe. Depends on what the PC is wielding; a halberd or pike seems a bit difficult to focus on both attacking with and blocking with a shield at the same time.

Hopefully either of these methods and/or my mini-rant are helpful to you!

[LudicSavant]

While I don't have time to help design the full race, I can at least offer two suggestions on the four arms trait. Either:

A: Handle it similarly to Middle Finger of Vecna's Thri-Kreen (http://mfov.magehandpress.com/2015/07/thri-kreen.html), where the secondary arms are somewhat useful, but aren't as powerful as your primary arms.

B: Handle it how I personally would, which is as follows:
Four Arms. You have four arms and four hands. You can use each of these arms as you normally could any other arm, however, if you are wielding a weapon in two hands and a shield in another hand, you cannot gain the benefits of the shield, due to the weapon's size getting in the way of your defense.

Is there a better way to word my version? Most likely. But, the mechanical standpoint is still fairly clear; four primary arms can be interesting, but people seem to be utterly terrified of them. I don't understand why, exactly; I've heard the reasons of "it's like giving them extra attack" or "they can then two-weapon fight with greatswords/mauls", but, by RAW, they can't unless you specifically say they can. You can hold a longsword in each hand but can't TWF with them without Dual Wielder, after all. Now, to be fair, most people don't negate the shield bonus for their four primary arms trait, and that's also a usual balance concern, but, that's why I put that restriction. Is it one that makes sense, fluff-wise? Maybe. Depends on what the PC is wielding; a halberd or pike seems a bit difficult to focus on both attacking with and blocking with a shield at the same time.

Hopefully either of these methods and/or my mini-rant are helpful to you!

Thanks! The four arms thing does seem to be one of the bigger mechanical challenges on the table. Regarding your second solution:

Four Arms. You have four arms and four hands. You can use each of these arms as you normally could any other arm, however, if you are wielding a weapon in two hands and a shield in another hand, you cannot gain the benefits of the shield, due to the weapon's size getting in the way of your defense.

What exactly is stopping a player from, say, wielding a weapon in two hands on their turn, then ceasing to do so at the end of their turn and gaining the benefits of a shield when it's not their turn?

[Blackbando]

What exactly is stopping a player from, say, wielding a weapon in two hands on their turn, then ceasing to do so at the end of their turn and gaining the benefits of a shield when it's not their turn?

Simple. In 5e, turns are all meant to happen at once (even though, honestly, I don't see many groups play that way, since that's usually kinda annoying) in how it actually goes down, even though in reality it's turn-based. Many people would argue that if you attack with a shield (not bash via the feat, but actually attack like it's a blunt weapon), you shouldn't gain the AC benefit, because you're attacking with it when everyone else is trying to hit you, instead of blocking. Similar situation here; your weapon/arms are in the way of blocking.

That's just the fluff of it, though. I hadn't actually realized that was possible, by RAW, until you pointed it out, so let me fix it up a bit.

Four Arms. You have four arms and four hands. You can use each of these arms as you normally could any other arm, however, if you make an attack with a weapon using two hands and a shield in another hand, you cannot gain the benefits of the shield until the start of your next turn, due to the weapon's size getting in the way of your defense.

Bolded the change. I'm not exactly sold on how the wording of this tweak is, but I can't exactly think of a better way to word it.

Also, while I'm replying to this thread, anyways, I came up with a trait idea for Blood Frenzy, assuming you want the Sahuagin to have it.

Blood Frenzy. Immediately before you take the Attack action on your turn against a creature that doesn't have all of its hit points, you can use your bonus action to grant you advantage on all attacks made using that action against that creature. After using this trait, you must take a short or long rest before doing so, again.

Maybe it shouldn't take a bonus action, but I felt like it'd be a good idea to make it one, due to how deadly it can be. Hopefully my trait idea at least gives you an idea of your own on how to execute it, if it doesn't work already.

[LudicSavant]

Perhaps a shield still takes an action to "don" or "doff" between "gaining its benefits" and not, even if you're still holding everything. Though that does feel a little awkward fluff-wise.

[witchslave]

I've been hoping someone would open up this as an idea.
There is a book out from kobold press that does have the basic sahuagin as a PC race for 5th ed.

unlikely-heroes-for-5th-edition from kobold press website

It doesn't have rules for mutants unfortunately. I was toying around with the idea 4 arms being better as fighters, malenti as rouge types, and a made up one I was brainstorming that would be for druid types that is similar to the four armed but with tentacles and a flatter face, maybe jellyfish tendrils for hair. Krakens in the area would cause the mutation like sea elves cause malenti to be born.

Also even though it is an older book set for 2nd ed. Its all about sahuagin culture, anatomy, religion, and their views on magic. Personally I love it

Monstrous-Arcana-The-Sea-Devils-2e from dungeon master's guild website

Couldn't post a link to the books unfortunately

[witchslave]

I find both books as a good start for different mutations that could be possible with the biology and mindset of the sahuagin

[LudicSavant]

While I don't have time to help design the full race, I can at least offer two suggestions on the four arms trait. Either:

A: Handle it similarly to Middle Finger of Vecna's Thri-Kreen (http://mfov.magehandpress.com/2015/07/thri-kreen.html), where the secondary arms are somewhat useful, but aren't as powerful as your primary arms.

B: Handle it how I personally would, which is as follows:
Four Arms. You have four arms and four hands. You can use each of these arms as you normally could any other arm, however, if you are wielding a weapon in two hands and a shield in another hand, you cannot gain the benefits of the shield, due to the weapon's size getting in the way of your defense.

Is there a better way to word my version? Most likely. But, the mechanical standpoint is still fairly clear; four primary arms can be interesting, but people seem to be utterly terrified of them. I don't understand why, exactly; I've heard the reasons of "it's like giving them extra attack" or "they can then two-weapon fight with greatswords/mauls", but, by RAW, they can't unless you specifically say they can. You can hold a longsword in each hand but can't TWF with them without Dual Wielder, after all. Now, to be fair, most people don't negate the shield bonus for their four primary arms trait, and that's also a usual balance concern, but, that's why I put that restriction. Is it one that makes sense, fluff-wise? Maybe. Depends on what the PC is wielding; a halberd or pike seems a bit difficult to focus on both attacking with and blocking with a shield at the same time.

Hopefully either of these methods and/or my mini-rant are helpful to you!

Forgive me if you've already mentioned it and I simply missed it, but what about wielding multiple light weapons and a shield?

[Blackbando]

Forgive me if you've already mentioned it and I simply missed it, but what about wielding multiple light weapons and a shield?

I have no quarrel with it. PAM + quarterstaff can already get a bonus action attack with a shield (and not requiring a fighting style), and TWF isn't the strongest in general. Allowing the race to have a fun niche that lets them make use of their arms in combat more than most others, instead of just being kinda cool but not doing much, seems a lot better to me.