Did I do the wrong thing?

[ShadowImmor]

Last night I ran a session for my players, they are in a Fire Themed Dungeon, and I had removed all their gear for this room (so they didn't just cut the knot as one of the characters can fly, they had NO PROBLEM WITH THIS, they were happy about it because it meant they actually had to solve the room)

It was a fairly standard Invisible Bridge over Lava room, so they can't see the thing they're walking on, but they had a refilling bag of pebbles and a stick to probe.

The rules for the room were as follows -

At the beginning of your turn you have to make a Con check or suffer 1 level of exhaustion from the heat (the DC starts at 10 when they enter, and increases each round by 1)

If you are not holding the bag, it is a bonus action to either take a handful of pebbles, or take the bag from the floor/another player, and an action to spread the pebbles. If you do this, you can check three spaces both adjacent to you and at least one other space. (So if you imagine the space a player is on, they can check any 1 side or any 1 corner effectively)

If you hold the stick, you can use your main action to probe one space, and a bonus action to probe another space.

You can use your action to probe a space with a body part, if you do and it is not a safe space, you must make a DC 15 Con Save or take 1d10 fire damage.

You can use a bonus action to prove a space with a body part, if it is not a safe space, you take 1d10 fire damage. (Essentially the bonus action is quicker, and so you can take less care thereby always taking SOME damage)

They managed to complete the whole room in 6 rounds, with the Winged Kobold getting to 3 levels of exhaustion.

(Almost all exhaustion in this dungeon is only temporary, i.e. while they are in the "hot" room.)

During the puzzle, the Druid used Create Water to cause rain to fall over a 6x6 square area, revealing both the path and, if a PC entered the Rained on area, they could reduce the Exhaustion by 1 level OR gain advantage on the next Con check. He did this twice, using up his last 2 First Level spell slots. (Meaning he has no spell slots remaining).

He complained he felt it was too hard and now he will be useless for the rest of the dungeon (he still has cantrips and they have all their gear back now). As he was the only one that used spell slots/resources to complete the room.

Over all the room has ended with them having used a short rest, one of the PCs (A Paladin) has used one hit die to heal and has 1 level of exhaustion remaining and used Stones Endurance (He's a Goliath), the Winged Kobold has take about 6 points of damage (out of 18) and has no Exhaustion, and no one else is hurt/has any Exhaustion

I want to know what your opinions on this are? Did I do the wrong thing? Was the room too difficult? Put a strain on their resources? The Kobold was in danger a couple of times, everyone else seems to think it was the right level of danger, and thought it was a good puzzle. Even the Kobold player (He rolled very badly the whole session and didn't pass a single con Check)

Be good to know your thoughts!

[ProsecutorGodot]

Encounters are meant to be a strain on resources. I have a few questions though.

What level are the players? You mention the Druid only having used 2 first level spell slots, makes me think level 1-3 if he's out of spells right after that. 1d10 fire damage also has the potential to knock a low level character unconscious right away. They can't be much higher than 3rd level if the Kobold's max HP is only 18. How many encounters have they gone through already?

There's a case to be made that if the druid hadn't spent both his spells to make it rain they all would have died to the exhaustion or fire damage, depending entirely on what level you threw this challenge in front of them at. At the very least the Kobold would have died to his exhaustion without the druid.

It's hard to say if it was necessarily too difficult, it could certainly have been deadly without the druid spending his spell slots but if dice rolls were good everyone would have made it across completely fine regardless.

I don't think the puzzle was a bad idea and I think you handled it pretty well.

[prototype00]

Depends, you gonna make them fight a life or death battle right after this or can they long rest?

[ShadowImmor]

Encounters are meant to be a strain on resources. I have a few questions though.

What level are the players? You mention the Druid only having used 2 first level spell slots, makes me think level 1-3 if he's out of spells right after that. 1d10 fire damage also has the potential to knock a low level character unconscious right away. They can't be much higher than 3rd level if the Kobold's max HP is only 18. How many encounters have they gone through already?

There's a case to be made that if the druid hadn't spent both his spells to make it rain they all would have died to the exhaustion or fire damage, depending entirely on what level you threw this challenge in front of them at. At the very least the Kobold would have died to his exhaustion without the druid.

It's hard to say if it was necessarily too difficult, it could certainly have been deadly without the druid spending his spell slots but if dice rolls were good everyone would have made it across completely fine regardless.

I don't think the puzzle was a bad idea and I think you handled it pretty well.

They're only level 2 (so I appreciate not a lot of resources) They have gone through no damaging encounters so far today. (A couple of puzzles but no drain on resources whatsoever).

That's true they could have died however, unbeknownst to them, it was capped at 4 exhaustion, and once they hit that point, the exhaustion would have been upgrading to "permanent" i.e. they have to spend a long rest to get rid of it. I did say this after the session was completed. I want them to act like they are in danger, but not while actually being in danger. (They made a couple of jumps and leaps of faith to cross the areas, which wasn't necessarily needed) they would only have died if they fell in the lava.

As for the Damage being high, apparently 1d10 is Setback damage for levels 1-3 (or 4) according to the DMG/DM's Screen, so that was what I based it on. I think the whole encounter I only rolled 3 dice, and one of them was because a player took a step of faith off the edge of the walkway.

[Unoriginal]

Don't think you did anything wrong, except maybe you should have made it clear they could die, though

[Phoenix042]

I want to know what your opinions on this are? Did I do the wrong thing? Was the room too difficult? Put a strain on their resources? The Kobold was in danger a couple of times, everyone else seems to think it was the right level of danger, and thought it was a good puzzle. Even the Kobold player (He rolled very badly the whole session and didn't pass a single con Check)

Be good to know your thoughts!

So first of all, that sounds like a taxing and challenging encounter. You should award the XP you'd expect to give if they had just defeated a deadly encounter.

Second, immediately after the room, there should be a small, easy fight to:
A) remind them that they're badass
B) Remind them how taxed they are.

then a chance to rest (long), then be careful not to hit them with what would normally be a deadly encounter.


Why?

The rooms drain on resources is meaningless unless they then have to deal with encounters afterwards. If they DO have to deal with encounters afterwards, they could easily TPK the party if they're hard enough after something like that. Exhaustion SUCKS as a condition, and it sounds like there's plenty of it going around, and it won't all go away during one long rest.

That's GOOD, because it means this room's drain on resources will affect them tomorrow, which I'm guessing was the idea.

[darknite]

Nobody died, right? It was the druid player's choice to use the resources they did. I think it went well. Players tend to remember and appreciate serious, imaginative challenges over pushover ones.

[SiCK_Boy]

It also looks fine to me.

The only thing that is unclear to me is how aware the players were of the "temporary" duration of those exhaustion levels. As in, did they know the exact mechanical working of it (and when / how they could get rid of those)?

If they didn't, that may explain why they felt they needed to expend resources to minimize the damage and exhaustion taken.

The druid player complaining about not having any spells anymore is something that would worry me at this point. When a spellcaster reverts to the stance that they are useless once spell slots are expended (meaning he does not feel he can contribute with only his cantrips), it puts a lot of stress on the entire party to take early long rests. It's even worse if the player is the kind of person that will lash out against any challenge with all of his firepower (or if the druid is the kind of player to just use spells when they could have used other options to circumvent a problem), and if the rest of the party has no way to tell him to pace himself and not waste spells around. This is how a party starts on the path to the 5 minutes work day, which can become problematic (depending on the story scenario you use).

The amount of damage is very reasonable in my view. A single d10 is pretty swingy in terms of damage, but still not going to kill someone (and the whole party is around to stabilize or revive anyone falling unconscious from damage), so I don't see it as a big deal (obviously, for the players, it may look terrifying, but that's part of the fun of the game to take those risks and face those odds yet make it through).

[Pex]

A check against exhaustion every round with increasing DC is a bit much. Someone will fail eventually and spiral down more. The DC should not have increased, and it should not have been made every round. Two or three checks total is suffice depending how long party takes, making the check every three rounds.

[darknite]

A check against exhaustion every round with increasing DC is a bit much. Someone will fail eventually and spiral down more. The DC should not have increased, and it should not have been made every round. Two or three checks total is suffice depending how long party takes, making the check every three rounds.

I think in concept it's not a bad thing to do, in fact it really puts a sense of urgency into the situation. However in the case of 2nd level characters a starting DC of 10 was probably a bit high.

[Armored Walrus]

So first of all, that sounds like a taxing and challenging encounter. You should award the XP you'd expect to give if they had just defeated a deadly encounter.


Yep, you set up a challenge that used the amount of resources you'd expect from a deadly encounter - make sure they get xp for it. Also, if you've laid out the dungeon with the 6-8 encounter day in mind, hopefully you didn't drop a deadly challenge in the next room, or you're going to kill them all. If that's the style of game you're going for, and your players are on board with that, then no problem, but it doesn't sound like that's the case.

[ShadowImmor]

A check against exhaustion every round with increasing DC is a bit much. Someone will fail eventually and spiral down more. The DC should not have increased, and it should not have been made every round. Two or three checks total is suffice depending how long party takes, making the check every three rounds.

That's something a Player brought up. And to a point, I agree. The problem is, with the checks only being made every three rounds they would only have had to make 2 checks, which at DC 10 (which it started it) they would have easily passed. I considered making the checks top out at 13, as that may have been fairer.

They were explicitly aware about exhaustion being temporary, as in an earlier room they left and let the exhaustion go down (thereby allowing them to essentially take 20 to pass the checks and puzzles) so they knew it was temporary (I didn't however let it go down by just leaving the room this time, they had to complete the room to get rid of it)

I've since spoken to the (other) players and each one of them have said it was a good fun challenge, it's only the druid player disagreeing, even the Kobold player (who got royally messed with by his dice, as I said, he didn't pass a single con check) has told me he actually really enjoyed it and was just a bit annoyed he didn't roll higher than about a 5 all session.

The next room is a combat encounter, they have had a short rest, but not a long one as no one else has really expended any resources, (all together I think they've spent 3 hit die and 3 1st level spell slots) over a Paladin, Fighter, Rogue, Sorcerer and Druid. (The Paladin still has some damage, but only a few points and a level of exhaustion, the Rogue has no exhaustion and some damage).

I feel maybe the Druid player is just unhappy he has no 1st Level spell slots left because he blew them all already on this challenge. (Which is also, kind of the point, it's supposed to make them blow resources).

Though he did say it was more that he felt he was the only one that could have done it (which, technically is true, but it's how they chose to tackle the encounter) and he felt they would die without it. Which, I do understand, but I do think that's kind of the point? If they could have just strolled through it, what's the point? If it didn't make them think "Okay this is dangerous, how do we solve this problem?" then surely the point of a trap/environmental puzzle is lost?

Thanks for all your input so far guys, I think maybe next time not increasing the DC (Even though I liked the way it ramped up the tension and caused them to start taking some more risks earlier) or only have it increasing to a certain point maybe a good idea, (again even though I liked the way the Kobold Spiralled, as he was the only one that did, and even then, not even that badly).

[Armored Walrus]

The druid player complaining about not having any spells anymore is something that would worry me at this point. When a spellcaster reverts to the stance that they are useless once spell slots are expended (meaning he does not feel he can contribute with only his cantrips), it puts a lot of stress on the entire party to take early long rests.

Especially since it's a druid we're talking about. He's still got wildshapes, presumably. If those are gone as well, presumably he took Shillelagh.

[Unoriginal]

There is nothing wrong with making a difficult/high DC encounter.

A dungeon isn't supposed to be friendly, most of the time. You don't have to go Dark Souls' or Lone Wolf's "gotcha and now you're dead" level, but if a player goes "man, we could have died", the response kinda is "well yeah, this place is lethal."

So no, it's not "too difficult", it's "very difficult, and the PCs are awesome for surviving getting kicked in the teeth."

[Temperjoke]

I think you did this right. The druid made a choice about how he spent his limited resources, and is having "buyer's remorse" for his purchase. Depending on his cantrip choices he's now facing an issue that many caster's do "What do I do now that I'm out of slots?" It's something he would have had to face eventually, all spell casters do.

[Contrast]

..which at DC 10 (which it started it) they would have easily passed.

I would expect level 2 characters to have con scores modifiers of +1-2. I don't know what your party make up is but most people would be failing a DC10 con check 40-45% of the time. I hardly think that counts as 'easily passed'.


I do sort of see your druids point. You specifically removed/disallowed methods that would have allowed them to traverse the encounter without resource expenditure just to force him to expend resources. At that point it can feel more of a tax than a challenge if that makes sense.

To a certain extent this is all of D&D but removing the curtains that hides it can feel pretty unsatisfying as a player. One suggestion I might make it that exhaustion is a very unsatisfying encounter to 'fight' against as a player. Half of the battle is perception - I would probably feel more satisfied as a player if I had had to use Create Water to extinguish a wall of advancing flame as opposed to being glorified air conditioning even though the end result is the same.

[ShadowImmor]

I would expect level 2 characters to have con scores modifiers of +1-2. I don't know what your party make up is but most people would be failing a DC10 con check 40-45% of the time. I hardly think that counts as 'easily passed'.

It took them six rounds to get across. Only the Druid and the Kobold had less than a +3 mod to the check. Even if it was a flat DC10, means they would pass half the checks if they had no mod, which means they would only have gained about 3 levels of this "temporary exhaustion". That's not even doing damage, or draining resources. Bear in mind according the rules, a DC 10 check is Moderate. Perhaps not easily passed, but equally we had a +5, a +4, a +3, and two +1 modifiers. It's a Con Save not a check remember, so some of them do get Proficiency.


I do sort of see your druids point. You specifically removed/disallowed methods that would have allowed them to traverse the encounter without resource expenditure just to force him to expend resources. At that point it can feel more of a tax than a challenge if that makes sense.

I didn't disallow anything. I didn't even have a way in mind to solve the room. They did what they wanted with the things I provided and he cast spells. I'm not sure what you're saying I removed/disallowed as I did nothing of the sort. The Create Water spell I even allowed to last the whole round (When it should only happen on the druids turn, RAW) so everyone could get the benefit of it.

[Pex]

Devil in the details. A check every other round. Every three rounds but the DC is 13. Every three rounds but the room is larger so they'll have to make at least three checks. The point is it shouldn't have been every round with increasing DC.

[Unoriginal]

Devil in the details. A check every other round. Every three rounds but the DC is 13. Every three rounds but the room is larger so they'll have to make at least three checks. The point is it shouldn't have been every round with increasing DC.

Why not?

....

[Fishyninja]

Last night I ran a session for my players, they are in a Fire Themed Dungeon, and I had removed all their gear for this room (so they didn't just cut the knot as one of the characters can fly, they had NO PROBLEM WITH THIS, they were happy about it because it meant they actually had to solve the room)

It was a fairly standard Invisible Bridge over Lava room, so they can't see the thing they're walking on, but they had a refilling bag of pebbles and a stick to probe.

The rules for the room were as follows -

At the beginning of your turn you have to make a Con check or suffer 1 level of exhaustion from the heat (the DC starts at 10 when they enter, and increases each round by 1)

If you are not holding the bag, it is a bonus action to either take a handful of pebbles, or take the bag from the floor/another player, and an action to spread the pebbles. If you do this, you can check three spaces both adjacent to you and at least one other space. (So if you imagine the space a player is on, they can check any 1 side or any 1 corner effectively)

If you hold the stick, you can use your main action to probe one space, and a bonus action to probe another space.

You can use your action to probe a space with a body part, if you do and it is not a safe space, you must make a DC 15 Con Save or take 1d10 fire damage.

You can use a bonus action to prove a space with a body part, if it is not a safe space, you take 1d10 fire damage. (Essentially the bonus action is quicker, and so you can take less care thereby always taking SOME damage)

They managed to complete the whole room in 6 rounds, with the Winged Kobold getting to 3 levels of exhaustion.

(Almost all exhaustion in this dungeon is only temporary, i.e. while they are in the "hot" room.)

During the puzzle, the Druid used Create Water to cause rain to fall over a 6x6 square area, revealing both the path and, if a PC entered the Rained on area, they could reduce the Exhaustion by 1 level OR gain advantage on the next Con check. He did this twice, using up his last 2 First Level spell slots. (Meaning he has no spell slots remaining).

He complained he felt it was too hard and now he will be useless for the rest of the dungeon (he still has cantrips and they have all their gear back now). As he was the only one that used spell slots/resources to complete the room.

Over all the room has ended with them having used a short rest, one of the PCs (A Paladin) has used one hit die to heal and has 1 level of exhaustion remaining and used Stones Endurance (He's a Goliath), the Winged Kobold has take about 6 points of damage (out of 18) and has no Exhaustion, and no one else is hurt/has any Exhaustion

I want to know what your opinions on this are? Did I do the wrong thing? Was the room too difficult? Put a strain on their resources? The Kobold was in danger a couple of times, everyone else seems to think it was the right level of danger, and thought it was a good puzzle. Even the Kobold player (He rolled very badly the whole session and didn't pass a single con Check)

Be good to know your thoughts!

I think you handled it well. its actually a really good encounter, a good puzzle! Would you mind if I used this in my campaign?

[Contrast]

It took them six rounds to get across. Only the Druid and the Kobold had less than a +3 mod to the check. Even if it was a flat DC10, means they would pass half the checks if they had no mod, which means they would only have gained about 3 levels of this "temporary exhaustion". That's not even doing damage, or draining resources. Bear in mind according the rules, a DC 10 check is Moderate. Perhaps not easily passed, but equally we had a +5, a +4, a +3, and two +1 modifiers. It's a Con Save not a check remember, so some of them do get Proficiency.

I mean...you kept on referring to it as a check not a save, including in this post, so I don't know why I would have remembered it was a save but ok, now I know :smalltongue:

3 levels is when you get disadvantage on saving throws which means things would go rapidly downhill from that point if it had taken even a round or two longer than it did.

I'm also assuming they only completed it in 6 rounds because they took risks by probing spaces with their body, hence the hit die used and damage done. So it was doing damage and draining resources.


I didn't disallow anything. I didn't even have a way in mind to solve the room. They did what they wanted with the things I provided and he cast spells. I'm not sure what you're saying I removed/disallowed as I did nothing of the sort. The Create Water spell I even allowed to last the whole round (When it should only happen on the druids turn, RAW) so everyone could get the benefit of it.

See:

I had removed all their gear for this room (so they didn't just cut the knot as one of the characters can fly, they had NO PROBLEM WITH THIS, they were happy about it because it meant they actually had to solve the room)

For clarity I'm not saying you shouldn't have things which challenge the players. I can just see that it would be frustrating to have all your climbing gear taken off you specifically because the DM wants you to have to expend resources to climb something, the wziard casts fly, then you're given your climbing equipment back.

[Armored Walrus]

Why not?


I agree. Seems like it worked out great. Granted, an increasing DC with no limit will eventually break the game, but it seems like he had it all pretty well balanced in the end. I'm guessing OP would be getting the same reaction from the druid if it had been a deadly combat instead, but the end result wouldn't necessarily have been any different. (A druid who still has both his wildshapes left and is still insisting he's useless now was going to have this reaction eventually no matter what OP did) As long as a suitable amount of exp gets rewarded, I see no problems with this encounter. Let's not all forget that as soon as they leave the hot room, all the exhaustion gets removed from the characters, per the OP, so it was essentially a save vs. nothing.

If no exp is rewarded, then I'd be a bit upset as a player, though.

[Callin]

Good encounter. The set up, the puzzle, the stuff you provided, all of. Good job.

[KOLE]

Terrific encounter. Well handled, great resources given, perfect tension. Give them Deadly appropriate XP, and keep that Druid player in check, don’t let them roll over you. They need to understand the consequences of their actions, ESPECIALLY as a full caster. Remind them how badass Shillelagh is and tell them to let the other party members carry the load until their next long rest.

[Pex]

Why not?

....

Because it means a guaranteed failure and each level of exhaustion makes the problem worse. We know for a fact that doesn't mean the room can't be solved since it was solved, but it does mean solving the room can be an unfun experience as the druid player feels. I don't think the druid player's distaste is really about feeling useless for not having spell slots the rest of the adventure. I think the true angst is he feels he was practically forced to waste his spell slots on something annoying and pointless. If it was a fun encounter and his spell use helpful in the endeavor he would be satisfied by the contribution, remaining giddy even if all he does next in combat is Shillelagh or Produce Flame.

[Lunali]

Just want to point out that as far as the players knew at the time the druid's spells were the only thing keeping the kobold from dying. They didn't find out until after that the exhaustion was capped or that it was temporary. The kobold failed every save, the puzzle took them 6 rounds to complete. Without the spells that would mean immobilization at 5 and death at 6, likely followed by the death of the rest of the party if they tried to help.

I'm not saying that the design was bad, but keep in mind that players expect the game to follow the base rules. If you change the rules for the puzzle without telling them, you have to expect them to treat it as if you hadn't.

[Daghoulish]

I'm not saying that the design was bad, but keep in mind that players expect the game to follow the base rules. If you change the rules for the puzzle without telling them, you have to expect them to treat it as if you hadn't.

The topic creator already pointed out that they were aware of the fact that the exhaustion would be temporary. He pointed that out here.


They were explicitly aware about exhaustion being temporary, as in an earlier room they left and let the exhaustion go down (thereby allowing them to essentially take 20 to pass the checks and puzzles) so they knew it was temporary (I didn't however let it go down by just leaving the room this time, they had to complete the room to get rid of it)

I gotta ask though.


I had removed all their gear for this room (they had NO PROBLEM WITH THIS)

How did you get your players to let go of all there gear? I know so many people who refuse to lose even a single item for any reason. Also it sounds like a really cool room and a memorable encounter. I even feel like the druid is being overly dramatic here. You said he used Create Water and you allowed it to work in a way it wouldn't normally because it was an interesting way to get through the trap. It's not like you forced him to use the spell, he chose to use it. You gave him a moment to shine and he seems ungrateful to me. I mean, he still has wild shift and Shillelagh, he's still got plenty he can do.

[Contrast]

The topic creator already pointed out that they were aware of the fact that the exhaustion would be temporary. He pointed that out here.

He said almost all exhaustion is temporary. I note the paladin left the room with a proper point of exhaustion so I'm assuming OP is operating some sort of scaling system where a certain amount of 'temp' exhaustion imparts actual exhaustion or each point of exhaustion has a chance to stick around or something.

[Unoriginal]

Because it means a guaranteed failure and each level of exhaustion makes the problem worse. We know for a fact that doesn't mean the room can't be solved since it was solved, but it does mean solving the room can be an unfun experience as the druid player feels. I don't think the druid player's distaste is really about feeling useless for not having spell slots the rest of the adventure. I think the true angst is he feels he was practically forced to waste his spell slots on something annoying and pointless. If it was a fun encounter and his spell use helpful in the endeavor he would be satisfied by the contribution, remaining giddy even if all he does next in combat is Shillelagh or Produce Flame.

One, he was not practically forced to use his slots, he decided to to help himself and the group.

Two, the room was obviously a "you'll die if you stay here" challenge, similar to a room where the walls close in to squish the characters or a room where you suffocate. Was it harsh? Yes. Is it a bad thing? No. As log as the DM acknowledge that this challenge could have killed the PCs, there is no issue.

Three, if a Druid player experience "true angst" because they use two spell slots who DID immensely help the group with a lethal encounter, well, they probably should take a class like Rogue which doesn't have much in the ressource management.

[ShadowImmor]

He said almost all exhaustion is temporary. I note the paladin left the room with a proper point of exhaustion so I'm assuming OP is operating some sort of scaling system where a certain amount of 'temp' exhaustion imparts actual exhaustion or each point of exhaustion has a chance to stick around or something.

Exhaustion is not temporary usually, but because I am how crippling it could be, I have made the rooms in this dungeon that give exhaustion due to heat as temporary exhaustion. It would have eventually start stacking into normal permanent exhaustion. I ended up deciding that if they end the room with more than 1 point of exhaustion it became semi-normal (I allowed them to spend 2 hit die during a short rest to get rid of it)


The topic creator already pointed out that they were aware of the fact that the exhaustion would be temporary. He pointed that out here.



I gotta ask though.



How did you get your players to let go of all there gear? I know so many people who refuse to lose even a single item for any reason. Also it sounds like a really cool room and a memorable encounter. I even feel like the druid is being overly dramatic here. You said he used Create Water and you allowed it to work in a way it wouldn't normally because it was an interesting way to get through the trap. It's not like you forced him to use the spell, he chose to use it. You gave him a moment to shine and he seems ungrateful to me. I mean, he still has wild shift and Shillelagh, he's still got plenty he can do.

It was an idea I read in another DM's dungeon, have a field that blocks their progress that is harmless in of itself but nabs all their gear sticking it in chests at the other end of the room. They know they'll immediately get all their gear back, but they have to deal with this room without it. I felt it ramps up the tension as they couldn't just fix it with "I can fly."


Just want to point out that as far as the players knew at the time the druid's spells were the only thing keeping the kobold from dying. They didn't find out until after that the exhaustion was capped or that it was temporary. The kobold failed every save, the puzzle took them 6 rounds to complete. Without the spells that would mean immobilization at 5 and death at 6, likely followed by the death of the rest of the party if they tried to help.

I'm not saying that the design was bad, but keep in mind that players expect the game to follow the base rules. If you change the rules for the puzzle without telling them, you have to expect them to treat it as if you hadn't.

I appreciate that, but I always had the plan, I wanted the players to feel the danger of possibly dying and work from there. If they don't think there's any real danger, then what's the point?


Because it means a guaranteed failure and each level of exhaustion makes the problem worse. We know for a fact that doesn't mean the room can't be solved since it was solved, but it does mean solving the room can be an unfun experience as the druid player feels. I don't think the druid player's distaste is really about feeling useless for not having spell slots the rest of the adventure. I think the true angst is he feels he was practically forced to waste his spell slots on something annoying and pointless. If it was a fun encounter and his spell use helpful in the endeavor he would be satisfied by the contribution, remaining giddy even if all he does next in combat is Shillelagh or Produce Flame.

To a point I agree, but if it was a combat (Which rooms with environmental hazards are supposed to do a similar thing to, i.e. drain resources) he wouldn't be moaning. I feel that the player has watched too much Critical Role and thinks the only thing that should drain resources is combat (which is pretty much how it works in the Campaign he runs, which I am a player in)


I agree. Seems like it worked out great. Granted, an increasing DC with no limit will eventually break the game, but it seems like he had it all pretty well balanced in the end. I'm guessing OP would be getting the same reaction from the druid if it had been a deadly combat instead, but the end result wouldn't necessarily have been any different. (A druid who still has both his wildshapes left and is still insisting he's useless now was going to have this reaction eventually no matter what OP did) As long as a suitable amount of exp gets rewarded, I see no problems with this encounter. Let's not all forget that as soon as they leave the hot room, all the exhaustion gets removed from the characters, per the OP, so it was essentially a save vs. nothing.

If no exp is rewarded, then I'd be a bit upset as a player, though.

I completely agree, they will be getting XP, I as possibly going to rate it one below deadly, but everyone here seems to think Deadly, so Deadly it shall be.


I think you handled it well. its actually a really good encounter, a good puzzle! Would you mind if I used this in my campaign?

Go ahead. Just use a force field they have to go through before they enter the room that blocks the heat before the go in, then once they pass it, all their gear is gone and they can see chests at the other end of the room, which they will immediately assume, correctly that their gear is in.


I mean...you kept on referring to it as a check not a save, including in this post, so I don't know why I would have remembered it was a save but ok, now I know :smalltongue:

3 levels is when you get disadvantage on saving throws which means things would go rapidly downhill from that point if it had taken even a round or two longer than it did.

I'm also assuming they only completed it in 6 rounds because they took risks by probing spaces with their body, hence the hit die used and damage done. So it was doing damage and draining resources.



See:


For clarity I'm not saying you shouldn't have things which challenge the players. I can just see that it would be frustrating to have all your climbing gear taken off you specifically because the DM wants you to have to expend resources to climb something, the wziard casts fly, then you're given your climbing equipment back.

I see your point, sorry I should have said save, my mistake. I appreciate that it can be frustrating and damaging, but I have always felt traps/puzzles like this are supposed to take the place of combat but be different and more interesting than "Go here and kill the thing." (Which I also will not be doing I must point out). So spending resources is kind of the point? I don't actually think they had much that would have made it easier to solve, and actually their armour would have given them disadvantage on the Con Saves, because it's heavy and stifling. What sort of encounters would you run that are designed to drain resources without just being "Kill the thing."? I'm interested in any ideas I can get!

[Pex]

To a point I agree, but if it was a combat (Which rooms with environmental hazards are supposed to do a similar thing to, i.e. drain resources) he wouldn't be moaning. I feel that the player has watched too much Critical Role and thinks the only thing that should drain resources is combat (which is pretty much how it works in the Campaign he runs, which I am a player in)



Now we know why he thought the endeavor was annoying and pointless. Something to keep in mind in the future. This player doesn't like puzzles that require class resources to solve. That's not to say you should never have such encounters, but perhaps don't have the resources needed be druid resources or very minimal he has plenty left based on his character level, or perhaps the best option be so important he's the Big Hero for doing it.

[Contrast]

I see your point, sorry I should have said save, my mistake. I appreciate that it can be frustrating and damaging, but I have always felt traps/puzzles like this are supposed to take the place of combat but be different and more interesting than "Go here and kill the thing." (Which I also will not be doing I must point out). So spending resources is kind of the point? I don't actually think they had much that would have made it easier to solve, and actually their armour would have given them disadvantage on the Con Saves, because it's heavy and stifling. What sort of encounters would you run that are designed to drain resources without just being "Kill the thing."? I'm interested in any ideas I can get!

As I said (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23129751&postcount=16), the DM sneakily trying to drain the parties resources is basically the game in 5E. I'm not opposed to environmental challenges or forcing the party to use resources to progress but the problem I'd personally have with this encounter was how transparent it was. Also for clarity, while I do understand the druids comments I don't think they're being completely reasonable - part of the deal you sign up to when you make a caster is the requirement to weigh up how you use your spell slots and commit to those decisions. As others have said, if you're gonna grumble about being out of spell slots, you shouldn't play a caster :smalltongue:

You saw that they might be able to bypass the challenge and rather than changing the challenge or letting them bypass it as a reward for having acquired that item/good planning, you just took away their stuff. I don't know item you were concerned about in particular but would using up that not have been resource expenditure in its own right?

Honestly 'trap/puzzle' design like this never really makes much sense to me because it always seems absurd that anyone would ever design a room like this. :smallbiggrin:

Its difficult to give suggestions for draining non-combat encounters without knowing more about the whys of the temple and the specific abilities of the party in more detail but I already gave my most general advice - it's usually better to fight something active rather than something passive if you expect the players to feel like they achieved something. Failure against a passive threat makes them feel rubbish (for instance, how do you think the kobold player would have felt if they'd guessed poorly and taken a few extra rounds to figure out what was going on and they'd just died from heat exhaustion while being able to do nothing about it), while success feels expected (and hence burning resources feels bad). Passive threats are fine when the stakes are low, when the stakes are high describe it as an active threat. As I said, in practice this might be an entirely contextual difference in how you describe something rather than any difference in rules but its about how players perceive the challenges as much as anything.

To try and give an example of what I mean - river is flooded and full of rushing water and players need to cross. You could just say there's a fallen tree, walking across, acrobatics not to fall in, exhaustion/damage if you do to get out. Your character feels like a chump when they fall in and trudge out. But it seems a total waste to expend resources to not walk over a mossy log. (edit - I'd do this if it was just meant to be a flavour encounter and a momentary interlude in describing a journey).

Or you could have the fallen tree half submerged and acrobatics to maintain your balance when debris slams into the tree/dodge rocks/branches/waves of stuff getting washed down. At least this way it feels more like the environment was dangerous than your character was a wimp/rubbish. It feels far more justified to expend resources to avoid (even though the actual tests are identical). (edit - I'd be more likely to do this if the party was involved in a chase, time mattered or the challenge was intended to be a more significant element of the journey).

[Armored Walrus]

I think it's pretty clear OP didn't do the wrong thing for 3/4 of his party, and for 1/4 of it he did. Add it to your mental inventory of how to run a good game for this group, talk to that player about what they did and didn't like about it, and move on with increased knowledge and experience.

[MagneticKitty]

My problem as a player with this puzzle is that it seems tedious.
As the flying kobold I would have been annoyed by not being able to fly over.

[DrowPiratRobrts]

There is nothing wrong with making a difficult/high DC encounter.

A dungeon isn't supposed to be friendly, most of the time. You don't have to go Dark Souls' or Lone Wolf's "gotcha and now you're dead" level, but if a player goes "man, we could have died", the response kinda is "well yeah, this place is lethal."

So no, it's not "too difficult", it's "very difficult, and the PCs are awesome for surviving getting kicked in the teeth."

I agree with this completely. The players should be proud, especially the Druid! He's single-handedly responsible for saving the entire party! There's satisfaction that comes when you realize you might've died and everyone made it out, even if you spent a lot of resources to do it.

Whether it was "too hard" probably depends on the rest of the dungeon ahead of them and how much opportunity they have to rest. Just something to consider. I think this sounds like an awesome encounter though.

And as it's been said, the Druid needs to come to terms with being a spell caster. Encourage him that he'll likely have more fun using many of his spells liberally rather than hoarding them and not using them in a full day. I should know as I'm currently playing a Wizard and trying to learn how to do this well. It's anticipating what may come with when we might have a chance to rest. I'm not great at it, but I rarely begrudge not having spell slots as long as I used them effectively when I used them.

I think you did the right thing!

[DrowPiratRobrts]

I feel maybe the Druid player is just unhappy he has no 1st Level spell slots left because he blew them all already on this challenge. (Which is also, kind of the point, it's supposed to make them blow resources).

Though he did say it was more that he felt he was the only one that could have done it (which, technically is true, but it's how they chose to tackle the encounter) and he felt they would die without it. Which, I do understand, but I do think that's kind of the point? If they could have just strolled through it, what's the point? If it didn't make them think "Okay this is dangerous, how do we solve this problem?" then surely the point of a trap/environmental puzzle is lost?



On the note of using resources outside of combat, I recently looked at my spellbook and about 18/20 spells did no damage and were either battlefield control or primarily used in RP/puzzle solving. There's nothing wrong with that.

As I said, I play a Wizard. I don't set out each day hoping to blow my slots on Counterspells, but I know that if there's an enemy caster it falls primarily to me to deal with him/her. I do it effectively and without complaining because even if I'm not having the most fun with my spells, I'm saving my party's proverbial bacon and allowing them to do what they do best without worrying about Fog Cloud, Hold Person, Fireball, and the like. I think your Druid really needs to reconcile what his primary role in the party looks like as one of two casters. He might not spend spells like that all the time, but he should always be willing to for the good of the party if he thinks it's the only way forward.

I've wasted slots trying to read someone's mind when it can't be read or convince an NPC to do what we want. Sometimes it works, but when it doesn't there's definitely a defeating feeling that comes with it. Then it falls to my party to find another way around the problem and pick me up so I can get back in the game and get to work being a god amongst mere mortals. That's what magic gets you, but it comes with its own challenges.

[Snails]

Overall, I would say the encounter was well designed. I like the suggestion to have a small combat afterwards to feed the PCs a success while suffering a bit of follow on pain.

The problem is that one player had a very different concept of what a "real encounter" is, and thus perceived being forced to burn significant spells on an arbitrary annoyance as unfair, because it was just hampered PCs from doing the real hero stuff.

That is probably an easily solvable problem, if the DM can explain how awards are given.

My 5e DM primary rewards "significant" achievement (e.g. finding and exploring the rumored Crystal Cave). To accomplish such things, there are significant encounters along the way, some of which require combat to get past and some which do not. But not all encounters are significant. Random wandering monsters or a pair of mook guards are just filler that give token XP -- best to avoid if you can.

In this context, I would presume lava cave is a significant encounter, just as adventure defining as any big combat.

If your player had a similar understanding of the rewards, the concerns would probably melt away.

[Mellack]

I think the puzzle/trap was interesting, but I am not comfortable with having to take away all of their equipment to do it. Those items/skills are also resources that they paid for. There was a trade-off to get them. Not letting them use those seems a bit unfair to me.

[guachi]

This sounds like a great Exploration encounter with real stakes at hand if the players dawdle. There were multiple ways to approach the puzzle. You gave a PCs idea a strong positive effect on the outcome.

The Druid's player shouldn't feel bad for using two spells. On the contrary, I think it's ingenious. I'd give the players good XP for the encounter and praise the Druid for his thinking.

When my players do stuff that does a great job of solving a problem or combating a foe I make sure to tell them. I have no problem pulling back the curtain and explaining how their actions beat my ideas.

[Ivor_The_Mad]

Last night I ran a session for my players, they are in a Fire Themed Dungeon, and I had removed all their gear for this room (so they didn't just cut the knot as one of the characters can fly, they had NO PROBLEM WITH THIS, they were happy about it because it meant they actually had to solve the room)

It was a fairly standard Invisible Bridge over Lava room, so they can't see the thing they're walking on, but they had a refilling bag of pebbles and a stick to probe.

The rules for the room were as follows -

At the beginning of your turn you have to make a Con check or suffer 1 level of exhaustion from the heat (the DC starts at 10 when they enter, and increases each round by 1)

If you are not holding the bag, it is a bonus action to either take a handful of pebbles, or take the bag from the floor/another player, and an action to spread the pebbles. If you do this, you can check three spaces both adjacent to you and at least one other space. (So if you imagine the space a player is on, they can check any 1 side or any 1 corner effectively)

If you hold the stick, you can use your main action to probe one space, and a bonus action to probe another space.

You can use your action to probe a space with a body part, if you do and it is not a safe space, you must make a DC 15 Con Save or take 1d10 fire damage.

You can use a bonus action to prove a space with a body part, if it is not a safe space, you take 1d10 fire damage. (Essentially the bonus action is quicker, and so you can take less care thereby always taking SOME damage)

They managed to complete the whole room in 6 rounds, with the Winged Kobold getting to 3 levels of exhaustion.

(Almost all exhaustion in this dungeon is only temporary, i.e. while they are in the "hot" room.)

During the puzzle, the Druid used Create Water to cause rain to fall over a 6x6 square area, revealing both the path and, if a PC entered the Rained on area, they could reduce the Exhaustion by 1 level OR gain advantage on the next Con check. He did this twice, using up his last 2 First Level spell slots. (Meaning he has no spell slots remaining).

He complained he felt it was too hard and now he will be useless for the rest of the dungeon (he still has cantrips and they have all their gear back now). As he was the only one that used spell slots/resources to complete the room.

Over all the room has ended with them having used a short rest, one of the PCs (A Paladin) has used one hit die to heal and has 1 level of exhaustion remaining and used Stones Endurance (He's a Goliath), the Winged Kobold has take about 6 points of damage (out of 18) and has no Exhaustion, and no one else is hurt/has any Exhaustion

I want to know what your opinions on this are? Did I do the wrong thing? Was the room too difficult? Put a strain on their resources? The Kobold was in danger a couple of times, everyone else seems to think it was the right level of danger, and thought it was a good puzzle. Even the Kobold player (He rolled very badly the whole session and didn't pass a single con Check)

Be good to know your thoughts!

It sounded fine to me. I mean all the PC's survived and it is all fixable with a long rest. If there is a place to stop and brake than they will be fine. It seems to me that the only problem is the spell slots.

[BLC1975]

It sounded fine to me. I mean all the PC's survived and it is all fixable with a long rest. If there is a place to stop and brake than they will be fine. It seems to me that the only problem is the spell slots.

I might have gone with water + fire = steam burns

[Pelle]

Could it be that that the puzzle felt a little too lolrandom? If the encounter being there didn't really make sense in the fiction, I can see why it felt like a gamist tax to the Druid player. I guess it wouldn't be a problem if the druid had spent resources to overcome a more natural problem.