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View Full Version : D&D 3.x Class Bladeweaver: Duskblade Upgrade (P.E.A.C.H)



nonsi
2018-06-08, 12:38 AM
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The Duskblade class had always felt incomplete to me.
The Bladeweaver is my version of what the official Duskblade should've been.
I've added several class features that I found badly lacking, and repositioned some features for a more or less even spread, to make every level count. I tried to design the class in a way that would encourage taking it all the way to level 20.


Table: The Bladeweaver

Class FeaturesSpells per Day
LevelBABFRWSpecial012345

1st+1+2+0+2Arcane Attunement, Armored Mage (light)32覧覧

2nd+2+3+0+3Combat Casting, Tactile Learning43覧覧

3rd+3+3+1+3Arcane Channeling54覧覧

4th+4+4+1+4Armored Mage (medium), Eclectic Learning65覧覧

5th+5+4+1+4Quick Cast 1/day652覧

6th+6/+1+5+2+5Spell Power +2, Tactile Learning763覧

7th+7/+2+5+2+5Armored Mage (heavy shield), Augmented Warfare 765覧

8th+8/+3+6+2+6Ranged Arcane Channeling, Eclectic Learning876覧

9th+9/+4+6+3+6Quick Cast 2/day8762覧

10th+10/+5+7+3+7Spell Power +3, Tactile Learning8873覧

11th+11/+6/+1+7+3+7Spell Block9875覧

12th+12/+7/+2+8+4+8Arcane Channeling (full attack), Eclectic Learning9886覧

13th+13/+8/+3+8+4+8Quick Cast 3/day99862

14th+14/+9/+4+9+4+9Spell Power +4, Tactile Learning109873

15th+15/+10/+5+9+5+9Spell Reflection109975

16th+16/+11/+6/+1+10+5+10Arcane Channeling (multi-spell), Eclectic Learning1010986

17th+17/+12/+7/+2+10+5+10Quick Cast 4/day11109862

18th+18/+13/+8/+3+11+6+11Spell Power +5, Tactile Learning111010873

19th+19/+14/+9/+4+11+6+11Spell Replenishment111010975

20th+20/+15/+10/+5+12+6+12Multispell Cascade, Eclectic Learning1210101086




Spells and Spellcasting
Bladeweavers know all spells on the PHB-II Duskblade's list.


The Duskblade痴 spell list appears below.
PH2 spells are marked with an asterisk.



0 Level
1st Level
2nd Level
3rd Level
4th Level
5th Level


Acid Splash,
Disrupt Undead
Ray of Frost
Touch of Fatigue
Bigby痴 Tripping Hand*
Blade of Blood*
Burning Hands
Cause Fear
Chill Touch
Color Spray
Jump
Kelgore痴 Fire Bolt*
Lesser Deflect*
Magic Weapon
Obscuring Mist
Ray of Enfeeblement
Resist Energy
Rouse*
Shocking Grasp
Stand*
Swift Expeditious Retreat
True Strike
Animalistic Power*
Bear痴 Endurance
Bigby痴 Striking Fist*
Bull痴 Strength
Cat痴 Grace
Darkvision
Deflect*
Dimension Hop*
Ghoul Touch
Melf痴 Acid Arrow
Scorching Ray
See Invisibility
Seeking Ray*
Spider Climb
Stretch Weapon*
Sure Strike*
Swift Fly
Swift Invisibility
Touch of Idiocy
Crown of Might*
Crown of Protection*
Dispelling Touch*
Doom Scarabs*
Energy Aegis*
Energy Surge*
Greater Magic Weapon
Halt*
Keen Edge
Protection From Energy
Ray of Exhaustion
Regroup*
Vampiric Touch
Bigby痴 Interposing Hand
Channeled Pyroburst*
Dimension Door
Dispel Magic
Enervate
Fire Shield
Phantasmal Killer
Shout
Toxic Weapon*
Bigby痴 Clenched Fist
Chain Lightning
Disintegrate
Hold Monster
Polar Ray
Slashing Dispel*
Sonic Shield*
Waves of Fatigue.




Looking at the above list, it seems quite comprehensive for the needs of the class to fulfill its role.

I propose the following changes to the list, to make it cleaner and more effective to use:



0 Level
1st Level
2nd Level
3rd Level
4th Level
5th Level


Acid Splash,
Disrupt Undead
Ray of Frost
Touch of Fatigue
Bigby痴 Tripping Hand*
Blade of Blood*
Burning Hands
Cause Fear
Chill Touch
Color Spray
Jump
Kelgore痴 Fire Bolt*
Lesser Deflect*
Magic Weapon
Obscuring Mist
Ray of Enfeeblement
Resist Energy
Rouse*
Shocking Grasp
Stand*
Swift Expeditious Retreat
True Strike
Animalistic Power*
Bear痴 Endurance
Bigby痴 Striking Fist*
Bull痴 Strength
Cat痴 Grace
Darkvision
Deflect*
Dimension Hop*
Ghoul Touch
Melf痴 Acid Arrow
Scorching Ray
See Invisibility
Seeking Ray*
Spider Climb
Stretch Weapon*
Sure Strike*
Swift Fly
Swift Invisibility
Touch of Idiocy
Crown of Might*
Crown of Protection*
Dispel Magic#
Dispelling Touch*
Doom Scarabs*
Energy Aegis*
Energy Surge*
Greater Magic Weapon
Halt*
Keen Edge
Protection From Energy
Ray of Exhaustion
Regroup*
Vampiric Touch
Bigby痴 Interposing Hand
Channeled Pyroburst*
Dimension Door
Dispel Magic
Enervate
Fire Shield
Greater Animalistic Power**
Phantasmal Killer
Shout
Toxic Weapon*
Bigby痴 Clenched Fist
Chain Lightning
Disintegrate
Hold Monster
Polar Ray
Slashing Dispel*
Sonic Shield*
Waves of Fatigue.




- Struck-out spells are official Duskblade spells that I propose removing from the list, for being less effective or overlapping.
- Dispel Magic# goes down to 3rd spell level. Gaining it at 9th character level is tough enough. No need for further abuse.
- Greater Animalistic Power** provides double effect of Animalistic Power (+4 to all physical ability scores).



Tactile Learning
At 2nd level and every 4 levels thereafter, you gain an additional known spell. This spell may be taken from any list (of any class), with the restriction of the spell being a Touch spell of a level no higher than the highest spell level you have access to.
Starting at 10th level, this ability allows you to take Ranged Touch spells.


Arcane Channeling:
In addition to the benefits granted by the Duskblade's feature of the same name, you also gain the following options:

Duskblade spells that allow multiple uses (e.g. Chill Touch and Scorching Ray) persist on the weapon until fully used up (1 use per melee/range attack), even if their duration is normally Instantaneous, but no more than 1 round per allowed use.
Instead of channeling an offensive spell via his weapon, a bladeweaver may channel a beneficial spell upon himself or his equipment.

Eclectic Learning
At each level divisible by 4, you gain an additional known spell. This spell may be taken from any list (of any class), with the restriction of being an Abjuration/Evocation/Necromancy spell of a level no higher than the highest spell level you have access to.
Alternatively, you may gain an additional spell from the other schools (including Universal), but you gain the chosen spell at 1 level higher than its original spell level.
Special: A bladeweaver may use general feats to take Eclectic Learning.


Augmented Warfare (Su)
Starting a 7th-level, you learn how to convert magical energy to augment your combat. You gain the following options:

As a swift action, you may expend one spell slot to gain a bonus to your attack rolls equal to the spell slot's level until the start of your next turn.
As an immediate action, you may expend one spell slot to gain a natural armor bonus to your AC equal to the spell slot's level until the end of your next turn. This armor bonus stacks with whatever natural armor bonus you already possess.

Ranged Arcane Channeling (Su)
Starting at 8th level, you may apply Arcane Channeling to ranged weapon attacks or ranged natural attacks. A bladeweaver may mount projectiles with touch spell, ranged touch spells, and ranged spells that have a focal point.


Spell Block (Su)
When you reach 11th level, your Arcane Warfare evolves. By spending an immediate action you may block a spell's effect that targets you. In order to block a spell, you must expend a total amount of spell levels equal to the level of the spell that was cast. You may not combine more spell levels than 1/2 your caster level, rounded up.
You block only the portion of the spell effect that had targeted you, meaning that if a spell can target multiple creatures, only your portion of the spell is blocked.
Blocked Zero-level spells don't consume spell levels.


Arcane Channeling (full attack) (Su)
In addition to the benefits granted by the Duskblade's feature of the same name, you may also apply this ability for range attacks.


Spell Reflection (Su)
Starting at 15th level, when using your Spell Block option, you may reflect the effect back at the caster, or another target within the spell's range, treating yourself as the spell's originating point, but using the caster's stats.


Arcane Channeling (multi-spell) (Su)
At 16th level, you may apply multiple spell effects vs. multiple targets with your melee or range attacks during the same combat turn.
You may channel a different spell on each attack. Whether the attack hits or not, the effect lingers until the beginning of your next turn and may be applied on successful hits until the time is up (including AoOs).
Only a single effect may be delivered per successful attack, regardless of how many spells where actually channeled during the round.
You may not channel more than 4 spells (one per iterative attack) in a given combat round, but you're at liberty to decide whether to charge your primary weapon or offhand weapon when wielding two weapons.
Note: Multi-Spell is applicable for range attacks only when applied to missile devices (including bows).


Spell Replenishment (Su)
At 19th level, you learn how to absorb spell energy.
When targeted by a spell that inherently only has a single target, you may absorb a number of spell levels equal to the spell's level minus 1.
You may then utilize up to 5 spell levels and activate Augmented Warfare as a free action, if you so choose. If you select the augmented attack, the enhancement kicks off at the beginning of your combat turn.
Special: When a spell is blocked, you immediately sense if it is a single-target spell, so you do not have to gambit between reflecting it and harnessing its energy.


Multispell Cascade (Su)
When level 20 is obtained, a bladeweaver reaches the pinnacle of bladeweaving.
When applying Arcane Channeling, all accumulated effects are applied to each target successfully hit, with the restriction that each target may only be affected once by a given spell.
So if, for instance, the character makes 3 melee attacks vs. one opponent and the last attack vs. a second opponent, and channels 4 spells (once per attack), then the first opponent takes one effect per attack while the second opponent (and anyone hit by your AoOs before the beginning of your next turn) takes all 4 effects.
Note: Multispell Cascade is applicable for range attacks only when applied to missile devices.









Bladeweaver Feats

Augmented Resilience
Prerequisites: Augmented Warfare class feature
Benefits: As an immediate action, you may use Augmented Warfare to gain bonuses to saving throws until the end of your next turn.


Channeling Grappler
Prerequisites: Arcane Channeling (full attack) class feature, Imp. Grapple
Benefits: You may channel a single spell per round via a held weapon or natural weapon while grappling.


Enhanced Spell Power
Prerequisites: Spell Power
Benefit: The bonus provided by your Spell Power ability increases by +1.
Special: This feat may be taken for the second time starting at level 14.


Expanded Learning
Prerequisites: Tactile Learning, Eclectic Learning
Benefit: You gain an additional Tactile Learning or Eclectic Learning.
Special: This feat may be taken once per 4 Bladeweaver levels.


Extra Quick Cast
Prerequisites: Quick Cast 2/day
Benefit: You gain an additional daily use of your Quick Cast ability.
Special: This feat may be taken for the second time starting at level 17.


Lingering Augmented Warfare
Prerequisites: Augmented Warfare
Benefit: Benefits provided by Augmented Warfare linger beyond their normal duration.
For each 4 Bladeweaver levels passed 7th (11, 15, 19...), the benefits provided by Augmented Warfare last one round longer


Retributive Shield Channel
Prerequisite: Arcane Channeling class feature, Improved Shield Bash
Benefit: At the end of a round when you use Arcane Channeling to charge your shield with a spell effect, you may spend an attack of opportunity to subject a creature that attacks you in melee to the effects of the spell that you channeled.




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nonsi
2018-06-12, 04:34 PM
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I'm truly puzzled :smallconfused:
5 days, 57 views and not a single opinion for a simple "would you allow such modification to the Duskblade in your game" question.

Did I articulate something in an unintelligible manner, or has the Duskblade simply lost its glory?

PhantasyPen
2018-06-13, 09:34 AM
Hmm, if you aren't going to expand upon the Duskblade's spell list yourself, might I suggest that you simply make this a fixed-list caster who automatically knows all the spells on their list? The duskblade list is small enough naturally that this wouldn't break much of anything, and it would probably save frustration for people who (like me) end up with rather high-INT duskblades that technically "know" more spells of a given level than they have spells of that level due to INT bonus.

I like Spell Block and Reflection, but you might want to word them a little more clearly. I assume you're supposed to stack spell levels up to the level of the spell you're trying to Block/Reflect yes? Because it doesn't actually say that anywhere. Might I ask why you tied this mechanic to an immediate action rather than an attack of opportunity?

nonsi
2018-06-14, 04:53 PM
Hmm, if you aren't going to expand upon the Duskblade's spell list yourself, might I suggest that you simply make this a fixed-list caster who automatically knows all the spells on their list? The duskblade list is small enough naturally that this wouldn't break much of anything, and it would probably save frustration for people who (like me) end up with rather high-INT duskblades that technically "know" more spells of a given level than they have spells of that level due to INT bonus.


Done.





I like Spell Block and Reflection, but you might want to word them a little more clearly. I assume you're supposed to stack spell levels up to the level of the spell you're trying to Block/Reflect yes? Because it doesn't actually say that anywhere.


I've added clarification, though I'm not sure if it says anything that wasn't already specified.





Might I ask why you tied this mechanic to an immediate action rather than an attack of opportunity?


Actually, it consumes both (AoO means 'Attack of Opportunity'. AoOs is for plural).
Reason: It's quite a powerful ability that no other class has access to.

PhantasyPen
2018-06-14, 08:42 PM
Actually, it consumes both (AoO means 'Attack of Opportunity'. AoOs is for plural).
Reason: It's quite a powerful ability that no other class has access to.

I don't think Spell Block or Reflection is all that powerful, actually, Spell Reflection is slightly above average in that all other abilities that do the same thing don't work on AoE spells. (I know the abbreviation for Attack of Opportunity, however it is clumsier for me to read AoO than the whole phrase.) Spell Block just feels like a personalized form of counterspelling however, which now that I'm thinking about it, I supposed makes it fair enough to make it a reaction, but it should not eat up an attack of opportunity in that case.

For sake of concise wording, I would recommend rewriting Spell Block into something similar to this perhaps?

When you reach 11th level, your Arcane Warfare evolves. By spending an immediate action you may block a spell's effect that targets you. In order to block a spell, you must expend spell slots equal to the level of the spell that was cast, you may combine multiple spell slots for this purpose, however you may not combine spell slots greater than 1/2 your caster level.
You block only the portion of the spell effect that had targeted you, meaning that if a spell can target multiple creatures, only your portion of the spell is blocked.



Now, on to your version of advanced learning: it's quite the odd ability, compared to the versions that the Dread Necromancer, Beguiler, and Warmage all have. For each of those classes, they are allowed to select a wizard spell (or sorcerer/cleric spell in the case of Beguiler and Dread Necro respectively) from a specified school or schools of magic up to the highest level of spell that they can cast, and they learn that spell at the level it was for the original class.

Your version allows the Bladeweaver to pick any Sorc/Wiz spell, but it can only be up to one level lower than your highest spell known, and you learn it as one level higher. Given that the Duskblade spell list only goes up to fifth level, I think this makes your version a bit too nerfed when it is compared to the other versions of Advanced Learning. In fact, it's just a nerfed version of the Extra Spell feat, since the feat lets you pick a spell from any spell list, not just one, while your class feature only allows the player to select from a single list. A better solution in my mind would be to let players select any touch/ranged touch Sorc/Wiz spell up to one level higher than their highest level of spell known, and treat the new spell as though it was one level lower.

nonsi
2018-06-15, 02:53 AM
I don't think Spell Block or Reflection is all that powerful, actually, Spell Reflection is slightly above average in that all other abilities that do the same thing don't work on AoE spells. (I know the abbreviation for Attack of Opportunity, however it is clumsier for me to read AoO than the whole phrase.) Spell Block just feels like a personalized form of counterspelling however, which now that I'm thinking about it, I supposed makes it fair enough to make it a reaction, but it should not eat up an attack of opportunity in that case.


Historically, attacks of opportunity were invented before they though about reactions and immediate actions. That separation in 3e is artificial and defies common sense.
(btw, 5'-step was also awkwardly designed. Laziness I guess)
Making an attacks of opportunity is just as much a reaction as any immediate action is. Except as a very specific, dedicated high-level class feature, I wouldn't allow a character to make more than a single out-of-turn action/reaction (with the exception of multiple AoOs vs. multiple opponens).





For sake of concise wording, I would recommend rewriting Spell Block into something similar to this perhaps?


When you reach 11th level, your Arcane Warfare evolves. By spending an immediate action you may block a spell's effect that targets you. In order to block a spell, you must expend spell slots equal to the level of the spell that was cast, you may combine multiple spell slots for this purpose, however you may not combine spell slots greater than 1/2 your caster level.
You block only the portion of the spell effect that had targeted you, meaning that if a spell can target multiple creatures, only your portion of the spell is blocked.



Seems decent enough.
Done.





Now, on to your version of advanced learning: it's quite the odd ability, compared to the versions that the Dread Necromancer, Beguiler, and Warmage all have. For each of those classes, they are allowed to select a wizard spell (or sorcerer/cleric spell in the case of Beguiler and Dread Necro respectively) from a specified school or schools of magic up to the highest level of spell that they can cast, and they learn that spell at the level it was for the original class.

Your version allows the Bladeweaver to pick any Sorc/Wiz spell, but it can only be up to one level lower than your highest spell known, and you learn it as one level higher. Given that the Duskblade spell list only goes up to fifth level, I think this makes your version a bit too nerfed when it is compared to the other versions of Advanced Learning. In fact, it's just a nerfed version of the Extra Spell feat, since the feat lets you pick a spell from any spell list, not just one, while your class feature only allows the player to select from a single list. A better solution in my mind would be to let players select any touch/ranged touch Sorc/Wiz spell up to one level higher than their highest level of spell known, and treat the new spell as though it was one level lower.


Makes sense.
I'm thinking of I restricting schools to Abjuration/Conjuration/Evocation/Necromancy/Transmutation? That's the bulk of the Duskblade's list.
I'm even OK with restricting schools to Abjuration/Evocation/Necromancy. More in theme with direct combat and less about buffs/debuffs/augments/minions.

PhantasyPen
2018-06-16, 08:36 AM
I don't think the Advanced Learning should allow access to Conjuration spells, however Evocation/Necromancy/Transmutation or Abjuration/Evocation/Necromancy would make sense, giving access to more than three schools would probably necessitate some other kind of restriction however, such as only spells compatible with Arcane Channeling, or only having a range of personal, just as examples.


Historically, attacks of opportunity were invented before they though about reactions and immediate actions. That separation in 3e is artificial and defies common sense.
(btw, 5'-step was also awkwardly designed. Laziness I guess)
Making an attacks of opportunity is just as much a reaction as any immediate action is. Except as a very specific, dedicated high-level class feature, I wouldn't allow a character to make more than a single out-of-turn action/reaction (with the exception of multiple AoOs vs. multiple opponens).


Based on this statement, I'm guessing you've either banned Combat Reflexes, or you've forgotten this feat exists haven't you?

nonsi
2018-06-17, 02:58 AM
I don't think the Advanced Learning should allow access to Conjuration spells, however Evocation/Necromancy/Transmutation or Abjuration/Evocation/Necromancy would make sense, giving access to more than three schools would probably necessitate some other kind of restriction however, such as only spells compatible with Arcane Channeling, or only having a range of personal, just as examples.



Based on this statement, I'm guessing you've either banned Combat Reflexes, or you've forgotten this feat exists haven't you?

On the contrary.
"I wouldn't allow a character to make more than a single out-of-turn action/reaction (with the exception of multiple AoOs vs. multiple opponents)".
It's even an integral part of BAB in my rules rather than feat-dependent. Combat Reflexes feat has an entirely different functionality in my project.

The idea is that each type of reaction dictates a certain stance. If you're already in a stance for making AoOs and you have sufficient combat training, then you're entitled to react vs. multiple attackers.

PhantasyPen
2018-06-19, 10:50 AM
On the contrary.
It's even an integral part of BAB in my rules rather than feat-dependent. Combat Reflexes feat has an entirely different functionality in my project.

The idea is that each type of reaction dictates a certain stance. If you're already in a stance for making AoOs and you have sufficient combat training, then you're entitled to react vs. multiple attackers.

If you're trying to get people to use this as part of a regular game, making your own houserules an integral part of its mechanics might not be the best idea unless you know for a fact they would be using your houserules as well.

Anachronity
2018-06-19, 08:43 PM
I'm confused. Isn't the Duskblade generally considered a good class already?

nonsi
2018-06-19, 09:28 PM
I'm confused. Isn't the Duskblade generally considered a good class already?

The official Duskblade gains no new ability passed level 13 - that's 7 boring levels where nothing interesting happens.
In practice, it has 6 dead levels: 7, 8, 12, 14, 18, 19. (a total of 10 uninteresting levels)
It doesn't synargize well for multiclassing or with PrCs.
Its Arcane Channeling is restricted to melee attacks only.
Its known-spells repertoire is pathetic.

So basically, a lot of unfulfilled potential.

Darth Ultron
2018-06-19, 09:48 PM
Spell Block comes way to late. It's a great ability, so it should be usable at much lower levels. I might even put it at first, after all the ability does have a nice limit.

Spell Reflection works at 15th....but maybe add Spell Absorption at say 8th. Like 'when using Spell Block you adsorb the spell energy as 'spell slots' for a round and can expend them as a swift action. And even add the spell slots can be used to cast multiple protection spells.

Though..hummm...for 'spell reflection' I do kinda like the idea of 'hitting' a spell effect and sending it back to the caster. It does make a great visual...a spellcaster casting scorching ray, and with a sword swing have it shot back to them.

And after like 11th level there are no new powers...just additions and alterations of powers.

Maybe add like making temp armor and weapons..kinda 'Artificer' like...say like one + per five levels..that stacks with other magic.

Maybe like 5th level add 'weapon telekinesis' so they can 'Jedi' a weapon to them as a swift action if needed.

Maybe add skill feats. Like leap attack or pounce, or battle jump.

Maybe speed increases.

PhantasyPen
2018-06-20, 12:50 AM
I'm confused. Isn't the Duskblade generally considered a good class already?

Duskblade is an amazing class and I love it, but it's not the best that it can be, despite my love for it.

nonsi
2018-06-20, 12:54 AM
Spell Block comes way to late. It's a great ability, so it should be usable at much lower levels. I might even put it at first, after all the ability does have a nice limit.

Spell Reflection works at 15th....but maybe add Spell Absorption at say 8th. Like 'when using Spell Block you adsorb the spell energy as 'spell slots' for a round and can expend them as a swift action. And even add the spell slots can be used to cast multiple protection spells.


I was thinking of declaring 0-level spells as "free of charge".
If I place this ability any sooner than 5th level, then I'd have to explain SL-combination by making each blocked spell cost its SL + 1.
I believe 6th level would be the more reasonable choice here.

OTOH, the class has plenty of things to learn during its first 8 levels, and i feel like adding an ability at 6th would dictate sibling abilities at levels 2, 10 14 and 18, as well as force me to find another ability for levels 11 and 15, since I really hate dead levels.
One line of abilities that seems fit for me at those levels could be the Mage Slayer feat tree (with augments at levels 14 and 18).

Personal Note: I'm often criticized for caring too much about design-elegance when homebrewing a class, but from my personal experience, an elegantly designed class is easier to use during gametime, because many times players glance at level progression tables for gathering their thoughts.





And after like 11th level there are no new powers...just additions and alterations of powers.


There aren稚 entirely new powers, true. But the given alterations provide new options and things to do on the battlefield.
I'm quite ok in adding the absorption option when targeted by a spell that has only a single target to begin with.





Maybe add like making temp armor and weapons..kinda 'Artificer' like...say like one + per five levels..that stacks with other magic.


It doesn't feel to me like this would fit the theme of this class, and I'm trying to maintain a decent level of class design elegance and keep it as close as possible to the Duskblade.
I also think that any class-inherent crafting capabilities would step on the toes of other classes.





Maybe like 5th level add 'weapon telekinesis' so they can 'Jedi' a weapon to them as a swift action if needed.


I'm thinking of improving Advanced Learning as follows:

Eclectic Learning
At the indicated levels, you gain an additional known spell. This spell may be taken from any list (of any class), with the restriction of being an Abjuration/Evocation/Necromancy spell of a level no higher than the highest SL you have access to.
Alternatively, you may gain an additional spell from the other schools (including Universal), but you gain the chosen spell at 1 level higher than its original SL.


That way, a bladeweaver could use it for devising a swift action spell for 'Jedi' theme (it's a 0-level spell effect).





Maybe add skill feats. Like leap attack or pounce, or battle jump.

Maybe speed increases.


Seems to me more of a territory of pure melees.

PhantasyPen
2018-06-20, 05:32 PM
I'm thinking of improving Advanced Learning as follows:

Eclectic Learning
At the indicated levels, you gain an additional known spell. This spell may be taken from any list (of any class), with the restriction of being an Abjuration/Evocation/Necromancy spell of a level no higher than the highest SL you have access to.
Alternatively, you may gain an additional spell from the other schools (including Universal), but you gain the chosen spell at 1 level higher than its original SL.



This looks amazing and I wholeheartedly recommend using this.

Darth Ultron
2018-06-20, 06:04 PM
It doesn't feel to me like this would fit the theme of this class, and I'm trying to maintain a decent level of class design elegance and keep it as close as possible to the Duskblade.
I also think that any class-inherent crafting capabilities would step on the toes of other classes.

I think making temporary armor and weapons fits. If you want to stay 'close' to Duskblade, then don't make any changes.

The 'idea' is a duskblade attacks and uses a spell....but this only so-so works out in D&D. You can get a couple attack spell combos...and then be 'just a fighter'.

Using magic to make the sword +1 flaming for a couple rounds seems to fit 'weapon and magic'.



That way, a bladeweaver could use it for devising a swift action spell for 'Jedi' theme (it's a 0-level spell effect).

I think more 'special ability' then 'another feat'.



Seems to me more of a territory of pure melees.

It's all about attacks and damage.

IS Arcane Channeling (multi-spell) the territory of pure spellcasters?

Well, my other 'non duskblade' idea was to adsorb subtypes when hitting a foe. So say hitting an Imp and they could take Evil, Extraplanar, or Lawful(like one every five levels). Again this gives a nice attack bonus as they would be/have a evil or lawful weapon, for a couple rounds.

ShiningStarling
2018-06-20, 06:19 PM
Of all the gin joints in all the world...

So the Duskblade is a mess. At 13th level, it becomes an interesting mess, but nonetheless a mess.

Your Bladeweaver, on the other hand... is a much larger mess. For one thing, Spell Block and Reflect seem much more Spellthief.

Gishes are a personal favorite of mine, and personally, I resent the Duskblade. With its introduction, people suddenly became much less interested in playing real gish. Conversations about fighting whilst using magic ended up circular, "Well, I could play a Duskblade, Arcane channeling is so cool! But... they dont get xyz spells. I guess I could play Fighter/Mage, but then no Arcane channeling!" This would continue until some sort of decision was made, but no one was ever truly happy with the decision from a gameplay perspective.

Now, you do eliminate this problem somewhat by adding advanced/eclectic learning, letting you shore up your spell selection, but... not enough, says I.

The problem with all this nonsense? They already made this class, and made it balanced, not confusing, and versatile. It's called Spellsword, and its on page 79 of the Complete Warrior. The only class to ever do ignoring arcane spell failure correctly, in a way that could actually use the enchantment the PHBII says is 'of particular use to Duskblades', but is in fact useless to them (Twilight, -10% ACF, +1 Price bonus). At 9th level, Spellswords get -30% ACF. If you had a set of full plate (35%) and a heavy steel shield (15%) and put twilight on both of them, a Duskblade would suffer a 25% failure chance, because they only ignore the penalties on medium armor and lower, plus shields, while the Spellsword would be free of any ACF.

Also, channel spell for the Spellsword doesn't necessitate a touch spell. It can be, but if you pick one that isn't a touch spell, no biggie, it'll only affect who you hit with the weapon. Now, Spellswords don't get to break the action economy like Duskblades do. Spellswords have to use a move action to channel the spell, while the Duskblade gets to use it as part of the same action. But really, the best use of the Duskblade's Full Attack Channel is with a touch-range buff and 2 whips, or maybe whirlwind attack with a spiked chain.

But, here I am getting all worked up. Here's my overall.

Duskblade: Good, but uninteresting, takes up the design space of a prestige class, needs better spells to have any variety.

Bladeweaver: I like it, Good, but still takes up the design space of a prestige class, probably balanced, but definitely breaks the action economy far worse than Duskblade.

Spellsword: only 2 dead levels, not bad for WotC, might need a bit of a touch up, but definitely balanced, works within existing 3.5 framework better, more flexible, more possibilities.

(side note, Wizard1/Fighter4/Spellsword4-9/EldtitchKnight to Finish is actually pretty fun)

nonsi
2018-06-22, 03:48 AM
Originally Posted by nonsi
It doesn't feel to me like this would fit the theme of this class, and I'm trying to maintain a decent level of class design elegance and keep it as close as possible to the Duskblade.
I also think that any class-inherent crafting capabilities would step on the toes of other classes.


I think making temporary armor and weapons fits. If you want to stay 'close' to Duskblade, then don't make any changes.


1. In my experience, "My way or the highway" is nonproductive for homebrewing.
2. The Soulknife as a concept if not in execution is a valid class. I wouldn't wanna step on its toes.





The 'idea' is a duskblade attacks and uses a spell....but this only so-so works out in D&D. You can get a couple attack spell combos...and then be 'just a fighter'.

Using magic to make the sword +1 flaming for a couple rounds seems to fit 'weapon and magic'.


Good point.
I'm considering reevaluation of each of Duskblade's spells. I want to take away what's not necessary (probably too many spells if the class would provide access to all of them) and add effects to the Bladeweaver's class spells (e.g. Flaming, Wraith Strike, Metallic property, Aligned Strike etc).







Originally Posted by nonsi
That way, a bladeweaver could use it for devising a swift action spell for 'Jedi' theme (it's a 0-level spell effect).


I think more 'special ability' then 'another feat'.


Notice that I was talking about an immediate spell you'd be able to add to the character's repertoire, not a feat.







Originally Posted by nonsi
Seems to me more of a territory of pure melees.


It's all about attacks and damage.

IS Arcane Channeling (multi-spell) the territory of pure spellcasters?


No, it's more versatile than that. It's about delivering effects via martial combat. Not all effects deal damage.
Pumping up damage is not what I envision for this class.
Delivering debuffs ans SoS effects, however, is very much in line with my expectations of this class.





Well, my other 'non duskblade' idea was to adsorb subtypes when hitting a foe. So say hitting an Imp and they could take Evil, Extraplanar, or Lawful(like one every five levels). Again this gives a nice attack bonus as they would be/have a evil or lawful weapon, for a couple rounds.


Alright, now you're talking.
So, we have alignment and we have characteristics.
1. It doesn't seem within RP to allow a character to adopt conflicting alignment on either axes. OTOH, this would give an unfair advantage to neutrality.
2. How would you break down racial characteristics? I'm assuming you wouldn't wanna let a character hit a clay golem and suddenly acquire all its traits. Also, how would you restrict number of uses?




nonsi
2018-06-22, 03:49 AM
So the Duskblade is a mess. At 13th level, it becomes an interesting mess, but nonetheless a mess.


I don't see how "a mess" would adequately define it.
It's design is clean and it's simple to operate even for newbies.





Your Bladeweaver, on the other hand... is a much larger mess. For one thing, Spell Block and Reflect seem much more Spellthief.


Those abilities remind one another to some extent, but in fact they're radically different.
The Spellthief wrests spells, effects, resistances and SLAs from targets of its AoO. The Spellthief provides the option of actually learning new spells by stealing them.
The Bladeweaver does nothing of the sort, but passively reacts when targeted by effects. The upside is that it doesn't consume actions during your turn.





Gishes are a personal favorite of mine, and personally, I resent the Duskblade. With its introduction, people suddenly became much less interested in playing real gish. Conversations about fighting whilst using magic ended up circular, "Well, I could play a Duskblade, Arcane channeling is so cool! But... they dont get xyz spells. I guess I could play Fighter/Mage, but then no Arcane channeling!" This would continue until some sort of decision was made, but no one was ever truly happy with the decision from a gameplay perspective.


This is why I've added Eclectic Learning and changed it to knowing all class spells. You don't get 6th plus SL access, but you get something that others don't get. Power vs. versatility tradeoff is a must, otherwise everybody would play one of the other known uber-gishes and character concepts would be drastically narrowed down, because there would always be the good old familiar winning hand.





Now, you do eliminate this problem somewhat by adding advanced/eclectic learning, letting you shore up your spell selection, but... not enough, says I.

The problem with all this nonsense? They already made this class, and made it balanced, not confusing, and versatile. It's called Spellsword, and its on page 79 of the Complete Warrior. The only class to ever do ignoring arcane spell failure correctly, in a way that could actually use the enchantment the PHBII says is 'of particular use to Duskblades', but is in fact useless to them (Twilight, -10% ACF, +1 Price bonus). At 9th level, Spellswords get -30% ACF. If you had a set of full plate (35%) and a heavy steel shield (15%) and put twilight on both of them, a Duskblade would suffer a 25% failure chance, because they only ignore the penalties on medium armor and lower, plus shields, while the Spellsword would be free of any ACF.


Trading some AC for other goodies is a worthwhile sacrifice.
You see, while high AC is a valid design strategy, it's definitely not the only valid design strategy. Don't tell people what they like and what they don稚.

So, there's your option, but a player could also go for one of the classic uber-gishes:
Wiz 6/ Fighter 1/ Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Knight Phantom 7
Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8

One big problem: you wait a long time before you could really enjoy the fruits of your labor. That's always true for class-combo gishes.
Another problem: not everybody's cut out for jigsaw puzzles of classes.





Also, channel spell for the Spellsword doesn't necessitate a touch spell.


Now you're talking!
I'm definitely open to suggestions for the Bladeweaver on this one.





Now, Spellswords don't get to break the action economy like Duskblades do. Spellswords have to use a move action to channel the spell, while the Duskblade gets to use it as part of the same action. But really, the best use of the Duskblade's Full Attack Channel is with a touch-range buff and 2 whips, or maybe whirlwind attack with a spiked chain.


The whole point behind the Duskblade (implementation aside for a moment) is the spell-steel concerto.
And it's far less abuseable than what pure casters can accomplish via Quicken Spell, Twin Spell, Split Ray and the Celerity line.





Duskblade: Good, but uninteresting, takes up the design space of a prestige class, needs better spells to have any variety.

Bladeweaver: I like it, Good, but still takes up the design space of a prestige class, probably balanced, but definitely breaks the action economy far worse than Duskblade.


IIRC, someone on GiantITP/ENWorld/Gleemax once counted over 700 official PrCs.
Why then should I care if I stole the thunder of one of them, if I ended up with a well-designed base class?





Spellsword: only 2 dead levels, not bad for WotC, might need a bit of a touch up, but definitely balanced, works within existing 3.5 framework better, more flexible, more possibilities.


You're forgetting the loss of 5 CLs.

nonsi
2018-06-22, 07:57 AM
.

The Duskblade痴 spell list appears below.
PH2 spells are marked with an asterisk.



0 Level
1st Level
2nd Level
3rd Level
4th Level
5th Level


Acid Splash,
Disrupt Undead
Ray of Frost
Touch of Fatigue
Bigby痴 Tripping Hand*
Blade of Blood*
Burning Hands
Cause Fear
Chill Touch
Color Spray
Jump
Kelgore痴 Fire Bolt*
Lesser Deflect*
Magic Weapon
Obscuring Mist
Ray of Enfeeblement
Resist Energy
Rouse*
Shocking Grasp
Stand*
Swift Expeditious Retreat
True Strike
Animalistic Power*
Bear痴 Endurance
Bigby痴 Striking Fist*
Bull痴 Strength
Cat痴 Grace
Darkvision
Deflect*
Dimension Hop*
Ghoul Touch
Melf痴 Acid Arrow
Scorching Ray
See Invisibility
Seeking Ray*
Spider Climb
Stretch Weapon*
Sure Strike*
Swift Fly
Swift Invisibility
Touch of Idiocy
Crown of Might*
Crown of Protection*
Dispelling Touch*
Doom Scarabs*
Energy Aegis*
Energy Surge*
Greater Magic Weapon
Halt*
Keen Edge
Protection From Energy
Ray of Exhaustion
Regroup*
Vampiric Touch
Bigby痴 Interposing Hand
Channeled Pyroburst*
Dimension Door
Dispel Magic
Enervate
Fire Shield
Phantasmal Killer
Shout
Toxic Weapon*
Bigby痴 Clenched Fist
Chain Lightning
Disintegrate
Hold Monster
Polar Ray
Slashing Dispel*
Sonic Shield*
Waves of Fatigue.






Looking at the above list, it seems quite comprehensive for the needs of the class to fulfill its role.

I'm considering the following changes to the list, to make it cleaner and more effective to use:



0 Level
1st Level
2nd Level
3rd Level
4th Level
5th Level


Acid Splash,
Disrupt Undead
Ray of Frost
Touch of Fatigue
Bigby痴 Tripping Hand*
Blade of Blood*
Burning Hands
Cause Fear
Chill Touch
Color Spray
Jump
Kelgore痴 Fire Bolt*
Lesser Deflect*
Magic Weapon
Obscuring Mist
Ray of Enfeeblement
Resist Energy
Rouse*
Shocking Grasp
Stand*
Swift Expeditious Retreat
True Strike
Animalistic Power*
Bear痴 Endurance
Bigby痴 Striking Fist*
Bull痴 Strength
Cat痴 Grace
Darkvision
Deflect*
Dimension Hop*
Ghoul Touch
Melf痴 Acid Arrow
Scorching Ray
See Invisibility
Seeking Ray*
Spider Climb
Stretch Weapon*
Sure Strike*
Swift Fly
Swift Invisibility
Touch of Idiocy
Crown of Might*
Crown of Protection*
Dispel Magic#
Dispelling Touch*
Doom Scarabs*
Energy Aegis*
Energy Surge*
Greater Magic Weapon
Halt*
Keen Edge
Protection From Energy
Ray of Exhaustion
Regroup*
Vampiric Touch
Bigby痴 Interposing Hand
Channeled Pyroburst*
Dimension Door
Dispel Magic
Enervate
Fire Shield
Greater Animalistic Power**
Phantasmal Killer
Shout
Toxic Weapon*
Bigby痴 Clenched Fist
Chain Lightning
Disintegrate
Hold Monster
Polar Ray
Slashing Dispel*
Sonic Shield*
Waves of Fatigue.




- Struck-out spells are official Duskblade spells that I propose removing from the list, for being less effective or overlapping.
- Dispel Magic# goes down to 3rd SL. Gaining it at 9th character level is tough enough. No need for further abuse.
- Greater Animalistic Power** provides double effect of Animalistic Power (+4 to all physical ability scores).

Reminder: the intent is that the character knows all spells on the Bladeweaver's list





Beyond the above, I'm considering allowing a bladeweaver an additional option for Arcane Channeling: instead of channeling an offensive spell via his weapon, a bladeweaver could channel a beneficial spell upon himself.

.

PhantasyPen
2018-06-22, 12:02 PM
.

The Duskblade痴 spell list appears below.
PH2 spells are marked with an asterisk.

Looking at the above list, it seems quite comprehensive for the needs of the class to fulfill its role.

I'm considering the following changes to the list, to make it cleaner and more effective to use:

- Struck-out spells are official Duskblade spells that I propose removing from the list, for being less effective or overlapping.
- Dispel Magic# goes down to 3rd SL. Gaining it at 9th character level is tough enough. No need for further abuse.
- Greater Animalistic Power** provides double effect of Animalistic Power (+4 to all physical ability scores).

Reminder: the intent is that the character knows all spells on the Spellweaver's list

Beyond the above, I'm considering allowing a spellweaver an additional option for Arcane Channeling: instead of channeling an offensive spell via his weapon, a spellweaver could channel a beneficial spell upon himself.

.

I would recommend not removing spells from the class list, just as a general rule. Also you've been referring to this class as the Spellweaver for your last couple of posts, but that's a PrC :tongue:

I'm also not sure I understand what you intend to be the benefit of being able to "channel" self-buffs. Can you explain what you mean?

nonsi
2018-06-22, 12:51 PM
I would recommend not removing spells from the class list, just as a general rule. Also you've been referring to this class as the Spellweaver for your last couple of posts, but that's a PrC :tongue:


Right you are :smallredface:
Fixed :smallbiggrin:

The point of removing certain spells was mainly to save players precious time and making bad choices.
Dispel Magic becomes available 4 levels earlier.
Greater Animalistic Power is basically all 3 missing 2nd SL ability-boosts rolled into one. I believe that Animalistic Power is better than any of them anyway.
Also, even after the omission, SLs 1 and 2 have 14 spells each. Anything more than that is unreasonable when the class automatically knows all spells in its list.





I'm also not sure I understand what you intend to be the benefit of being able to "channel" self-buffs. Can you explain what you mean?


Examples: Darkvision, Deflect, Protection From Energy. Basically, things that add to your survival chances when the need arises.

PhantasyPen
2018-06-22, 11:46 PM
Examples: Darkvision, Deflect, Protection From Energy. Basically, things that add to your survival chances when the need arises.

I know what spells those are, I meant I didn't see the benefit of being able to channel them.

nonsi
2018-06-23, 12:27 AM
I know what spells those are, I meant I didn't see the benefit of being able to channel them.

Picture this:
Your party is nearing certain victory in an encounter, but you're critically low on HP.
Let's say that when your turn is over, the last living/functional opponent's turn comes up in the initiative cycle and there's a 1 in 4 chance that it'll be attacking you.
Common sense dictates that you first reduce chances of taking a hit / reduce damage and rely on the offensive efforts of your team mates to finish it off, should yours not suffice.
With my proposed option, you may make a non-augmented melee attack and enhance your survival chances in a single action. Maybe you'll kill it with your sword, but usually your opponents' HP count is not within your grasp, so if you don't, you still have a solid chance of evading its claws / surviving its electrical discharge if it comes for you.

nonsi
2018-06-23, 02:39 AM
.
I want to make sure that ideas with high potential don't fall between the cracks, so I'm resurfacing them here:





Well, my other 'non duskblade' idea was to adsorb subtypes when hitting a foe. So say hitting an Imp and they could take Evil, Extraplanar, or Lawful(like one every five levels). Again this gives a nice attack bonus as they would be/have a evil or lawful weapon, for a couple rounds.


So, we have alignment and we have characteristics.
1. It doesn't seem within RP to allow a character to adopt conflicting alignment on either axes. OTOH, this would give an unfair advantage to neutrality.
2. How would you break down racial characteristics? I'm assuming you wouldn't wanna let a character hit a clay golem and suddenly acquire all its traits. Also, how would you restrict number of uses?





Also, channel spell for the Spellsword doesn't necessitate a touch spell.


I'm definitely open to suggestions on this one.

ShiningStarling
2018-06-23, 04:25 PM
One big problem: you wait a long time before you could really enjoy the fruits of your labor. Personally I believe that starting at 1st level is very dull after you've done it enough times, 5th is my preference, gives you more of a footing for backstory and such, but I understand not everyone feels the same, so fair enough.

Also, thanks for sticking with me through all that, I got a bit carried away.

Side note: I didn't mean to imply you were taking the design space of a spellsword, rather that the spell channeling style of fish seems unique enough to not be a base class, apologies for lack of clarity.


Now you're talking!
I'm definitely open to suggestions for the Bladeweaver on this one.

The whole point behind the Duskblade (implementation aside for a moment) is the spell-steel concerto.

Alrighty, here's my suggestion then. Move multi-spell channelling to the full attack spot, then in the levels between eclectic learning, add "Tactile Learning", like Eclectic learning, but instead of school restriction, make it touch spells only. Feel like that'd add a lot of variety to the playstyle. <3

nonsi
2018-06-24, 02:01 AM
Personally I believe that starting at 1st level is very dull after you've done it enough times, 5th is my preference, gives you more of a footing for backstory and such, but I understand not everyone feels the same, so fair enough.


The thing about starting at 1st level, is that for many players it creates a stronger sense of attachment to your character, but that's only if the group can linger to cover the distance. Otherwise 5th is indeed a good place to start from, provided that you're not a newbie.

But what I was actually trying to say is that the Spellsword overshadows the Duskblade on the aspect of armor only at the higher levels, which is far far away from 5th.





Side note: I didn't mean to imply you were taking the design space of a spellsword, rather that the spell channeling style of fish seems unique enough to not be a base class, apologies for lack of clarity.


If we're talking only about Arcane Channeling, then yes. But I'd like to believe that my proposed changes give the Bladeweaver a valid base-class status (which indeed might be questionable where the official Duskblade is the issue).





Alrighty, here's my suggestion then. Move multi-spell channelling to the full attack spot, then in the levels between eclectic learning, add "Tactile Learning", like Eclectic learning, but instead of school restriction, make it touch spells only. Feel like that'd add a lot of variety to the playstyle. <3


"Tactile Learning" is a wonderful idea. I'll add it to 2nd level as well, because Combat Casting will become less and less significant (and eventually insignificant) with level increase.

Multi-spell seems a significantly powerful ability. The option of delivering different effects vs. different opponents could take you a long way in dealing with versatile groups of opponents and varied situations. AFAIK, no one can do that officially, and I'm concerned it might turn out broken at 12th level.
Also, if I apply your suggestion, I'll end up with nothing interesting to write home about at levels 19 and 20.

PhantasyPen
2018-06-24, 10:01 AM
So, I just realized it's not really spelled out, but how does multi-spell channeling work? Is it supposed to be something like you get to apply one different spell to each attack, or you can pick two spells to channel and they are applied to every attack, or some other meaning? If you don't specify this, it comes down to table ruling, and I can tell you with certainty that three different DM's will give four different answers on that subject if the text doesn't specify.

nonsi
2018-06-24, 01:12 PM
So, I just realized it's not really spelled out, but how does multi-spell channeling work? Is it supposed to be something like you get to apply one different spell to each attack, or you can pick two spells to channel and they are applied to every attack, or some other meaning? If you don't specify this, it comes down to table ruling, and I can tell you with certainty that three different DM's will give four different answers on that subject if the text doesn't specify.

You're absolutely right.
Well, the intent is to give absolute freedom, but without making things crazy.
It goes like this:

"The bladeweaver may channel a different spell on each attack. Whether the attack hits or not, the effect lingers until the beginning of the bladeweaver's next turn and may be applied on a successful hit until the time is up (including AoOs). Only a single effect may be delivered per successful attack, regardless of how many spells where actually channeled during the round."

.

ShiningStarling
2018-06-24, 06:02 PM
"Tactile Learning" is a wonderful idea. I'll add it to 2nd level as well, because Combat Casting will become less and less significant (and eventually insignificant) with level increase.

Multi-spell seems a significantly powerful ability. The option of delivering different effects vs. different opponents could take you a long way in dealing with versatile groups of opponents and varied situations. AFAIK, no one can do that officially, and I'm concerned it might turn out broken at 12th level.
Also, if I apply your suggestion, I'll end up with nothing interesting to write home about at levels 19 and 20.
Glad you liked it :3

I brought up getting it earlier because the normal Full Attack channel still only uses one spell slot, whereas your multi-spell channel uses a spell for each attack, and one of my complaints with Duskblade is having all those spell slots but using them too efficiently to ever really run out. Also, in playability terms, few games reach 19th level or beyond.

(Also completely unrelated, but please please break the WotC thing of never more than 6 cantrips, it's so silly)

nonsi
2018-06-25, 01:32 AM
I brought up getting it earlier because the normal Full Attack channel still only uses one spell slot, whereas your multi-spell channel uses a spell for each attack, and one of my complaints with Duskblade is having all those spell slots but using them too efficiently to ever really run out. Also, in playability terms, few games reach 19th level or beyond.


I could see it within reason to allow Arcane Channeling (full attack) to apply to range attacks at 12th, then allow multispell at 16th, but then I have nothing left for levels 19 and 20, and I'm fed up with those levels ending up empty (de-facto or practically).
Where could you possibly take the class at levels 19 and 20 if multispell was granted at 16th? I even tried to reexamine the PF Magus (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/), only to find out that its strength goes in a different direction (attacking and casting, rather than channeling).





(Also completely unrelated, but please please break the WotC thing of never more than 6 cantrips, it's so silly)


1. In practice, the class would grant at least 5 more daily cantrips as early as 1st level.
2. What did you have in mind?

ShiningStarling
2018-06-25, 08:52 PM
I could see it within reason to allow Arcane Channeling (full attack) to apply to range attacks at 12th, then allow multispell at 16th, but then I have nothing left for levels 19 and 20, and I'm fed up with those levels ending up empty (de-facto or practically).
Where could you possibly take the class at levels 19 and 20 if multispell was granted at 16th? I even tried to reexamine the PF Magus (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/), only to find out that its strength goes in a different direction (attacking and casting, rather than channeling).
Maybe apply a free Metamagic a couple times a day? Treat it like the Dervish capstone, do that thing you were already doing, but amp it up to 11 this time.





1. In practice, the class would grant at least 5 more daily cantrips as early as 1st level.
2. What did you have in mind?
12 seems like a good cap for Bladeweaver, use all your cantrips to block or party a 6th level spell once seems like a decent balance point

nonsi
2018-06-26, 01:55 AM
Maybe apply a free Metamagic a couple times a day?



Treat it like the Dervish capstone, do that thing you were already doing, but amp it up to 11 this time.


1. Those seem like two different things.
2. I'm not sure what you mean regarding the latter and I'd rather not guess.
3. The class has nothing special regarding metamagic for 18 levels (Quick Cast applies to class spells only, so it's not exactly metamagic), making it seem out of place here.
4. I need substance for 2 levels.

For level 20, I was thinking about once per day applying all accumulated effects to each target, with the restriction that each target may only be affected once by a given spell.
So if the character makes 3 attacks vs. one opponent and the last attack vs. a second opponent, and channels 4 spells (once per attack), then the first opponent takes one effect per attack while the second opponent (and anyone hit by your AoOs before the beginning of your next turn) takes all 4 effects.

That still leaves me with nothing interesting for level 19.




12 seems like a good cap for Bladeweaver, use all your cantrips to block or party a 6th level spell once seems like a decent balance point


No biggie.
Done.

nonsi
2018-06-27, 03:27 AM
.

OK, I had this thought. (and this is just a thought for now)

Since heavy shield doesn稚 really change anything, and since I currently have nothing for level 19, I'm considering forfeiting Spell Block and making the following changes:

At 7th level, instead of "Armored Mage (heavy shield)", the Bladeweaver gains the PF Magus' Spell Combat ability.
At 11th level, instead of Spell Block, when applying Spell Combat, the Bladeweaver adds his level to his Concentration check.
At 15th level, instead of Spell Reflection, the Bladeweaver gains the PF Magus' Counterstrike ability.
At 19th level, a Bladeweaver doesn't provoke AoOs when using his Spell Combat ability.

Along with my proposal above for level 20, I think this will fill in all the blanks nicely.
I realize that exchanging Spell Block and Spell Reflection would be quite a big sacrifice, but the above changes seem to fill the blanks nicely and probably more in theme with the rest of the Bladeweaver's abilities.

PhantasyPen
2018-06-27, 06:52 AM
.

OK, I had this thought. (and this is just a thought for now)

Since heavy shield doesn稚 really change anything, and since I currently have nothing for level 19, I'm considering forfeiting Spell Block and making the following changes:

At 7th level, instead of "Armored Mage (heavy shield)", the Bladeweaver gains the PF Magus' Spell Combat ability.
At 11th level, instead of Spell Block, when applying Spell Combat, the Bladeweaver adds his level to his Concentration check.
At 15th level, instead of Spell Reflection, the Bladeweaver gains the PF Magus' Counterstrike ability.
At 19th level, a Bladeweaver doesn't provoke AoOs when using his Spell Combat ability.

Along with my proposal above for level 20, I think this will fill in all the blanks nicely.
I realize that exchanging Spell Block and Spell Reflection would be quite a big sacrifice, but the above changes seem to fill the blanks nicely and probably more in theme with the rest of the Bladeweaver's abilities.

Personally I would say don't do it, but that's because I hate the magus and love the idea of the Spell Block mechanic, it adds a layer of anti-magic defense the original duskblade had but never capitalized on.

nonsi
2018-06-27, 09:21 AM
Personally I would say don't do it, but that's because I hate the magus and love the idea of the Spell Block mechanic, it adds a layer of anti-magic defense the original duskblade had but never capitalized on.

I share your preference, but 7th level is de-facto empty of class features, and the bigger problem is that I don't have anything to put at level 19 if I'm to make the desired changes specified at post #31.

PhantasyPen
2018-06-27, 09:59 PM
I think Eclectic learning is enough for level 20, since if you've gotten that far you're not looking for an extreme boost in power anymore, just something to solidify what you already have. As for 19th level, perhaps do back to Darth Ultron's suggestion (and I can't believe I just said that) and let them spend spells or slots to buff their armor and/or shield.

nonsi
2018-06-27, 10:38 PM
I think Eclectic learning is enough for level 20, since if you've gotten that far you're not looking for an extreme boost in power anymore, just something to solidify what you already have.


1. Capstones are a tradition that I like.
2. All the other "____ Learning" accompany other features and it'll seem odd that the only exception would be not having a capstone.
3. Since I already thought about Multispell Cascade, I don't really need to make that compromise.





As for 19th level, perhaps do back to Darth Ultron's suggestion (and I can't believe I just said that) and let them spend spells or slots to buff their armor and/or shield.


Actually, that's a solid ability for 7th level.
Will do :smallamused:
. . . Which again leaves me with the task of finding something for level 19 :smallfrown:

nonsi
2018-06-28, 01:12 AM
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Ok, I think I finally have all issues resolved (in the OP) :smallsmile:

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PhantasyPen
2018-06-28, 01:39 AM
Starting at 7th level, you learn how to convert magical energy to augment your combat.
You gain two options:
As a swift action, you may convert spells to increase your attack rolls until the beginning of your next turn.
As an immediate action, you may convert spells to increase your AC until the end of your current turn (reminder: an immediate action relates to a character's actions to come, not the ones that have preceded it).
In both cases, the bonus equals the converted spell's level.

Emphasis mine. Immediate actions are meant to be used outside of your turn, so this is confusing to me at the least. Might I suggest rephrasing like so?



Starting a 7th-level, you learn how to convert magical energy to augment your combat. You gain the following options:

As a swift action, you may expend one (or more?) spell slot(s) to gain a bonus to your attack rolls equal to the (combined) level of the spell slot(s) until the start of your next turn.
As an immediate action when a creature attacks you you may expend one (or more) spell slot(s) to gain a bonus to your Armor Class equal to the (combined) level of the spell slot(s) until the end of your next turn.



I wasn't sure if you intended for the class to allow the caster to sacrifice more than one spell slot at a time. If so, then just remove the parentheses. If using multiple spell slots are allowed, then you'll probably need to specify a limit. (Perhaps no greater combined spell levels than 1/2 your caster level?)

EDIT: Wait, why did you remove Heavy Shields from Armored mage again? It seems a bit mean to the poor Heavy Shield.

nonsi
2018-06-28, 02:26 AM
Emphasis mine. Immediate actions are meant to be used outside of your turn, so this is confusing to me at the least. Might I suggest rephrasing like so?


Done.




I wasn't sure if you intended for the class to allow the caster to sacrifice more than one spell slot at a time. If so, then just remove the parentheses. If using multiple spell slots are allowed, then you'll probably need to specify a limit. (Perhaps no greater combined spell levels than 1/2 your caster level?)


Spell combination is highly unorthodox. I don't even remember ever encountering it in any 3.Xe official materials. It'd be like mentioning that humans can't fly in the racial features.




EDIT: Wait, why did you remove Heavy Shields from Armored mage again? It seems a bit mean to the poor Heavy Shield.


That 1/2 hp damage diff (in almost all cases) ain't worth the feature slot or the diversion of players' attention and the temptation to invest character resources in shield-bashing.
Augmented Warfare blows that feature out of the water and is very much within the class' theme.

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PhantasyPen
2018-06-28, 12:00 PM
Are you sure you want Armored Warfare's AC buff to be a deflection bonus? That's one of the few types of AC boost that this class isn't going to have much of a hard time getting access to. Particularly with the Deflection spells being on their list.

ShiningStarling
2018-06-28, 05:37 PM
1. Those seem like two different things.
2. I'm not sure what you mean regarding the latter and I'd rather not guess.
3. The class has nothing special regarding metamagic for 18 levels (Quick Cast applies to class spells only, so it's not exactly metamagic), making it seem out of place here.
4. I need substance for 2 levels.

For level 20, I was thinking about once per day applying all accumulated effects to each target, with the restriction that each target may only be affected once by a given spell.
So if the character makes 3 attacks vs. one opponent and the last attack vs. a second opponent, and channels 4 spells (once per attack), then the first opponent takes one effect per attack while the second opponent (and anyone hit by your AoOs before the beginning of your next turn) takes all 4 effects.

That still leaves me with nothing interesting for level 19.
Regarding MM: I meant in the channelled spells, not normally, my bad on wording.
Love that capstone tho.

nonsi
2018-06-28, 10:13 PM
Are you sure you want Armored Warfare's AC buff to be a deflection bonus? That's one of the few types of AC boost that this class isn't going to have much of a hard time getting access to. Particularly with the Deflection spells being on their list.

That's a good point.
Changed it to armor bonus.

PhantasyPen
2018-06-28, 11:47 PM
That's a good point.
Changed it to armor bonus.

And would that stack with actual armor? I think an untyped bonus or dodge bonus might work best, since those are guaranteed to stack.

nonsi
2018-06-29, 12:16 AM
And would that stack with actual armor? I think an untyped bonus or dodge bonus might work best, since those are guaranteed to stack.

Mechanically speaking - I totally agree. But.......

I don't believe in untyped modifiers.
I don't know how to explain dodge bonuses where raw magic is involved.

PhantasyPen
2018-06-29, 12:25 AM
Mechanically speaking - I totally agree. But.......

I don't believe in untyped modifiers.
I don't know how to explain dodge bonuses where raw magic is involved.

(Emphasis mine) Pseudo-haste is my preferred explanation, but honestly this just needs a sentence tacked on the end explaining that the armor bonus stacks with any preexisting armor and you're golden.

nonsi
2018-06-29, 12:58 AM
(Emphasis mine) Pseudo-haste is my preferred explanation, but honestly this just needs a sentence tacked on the end explaining that the armor bonus stacks with any preexisting armor and you're golden.

That's a solid solution.
I chose to go for natural armor. Seems more intuitive to me.

nonsi
2018-06-29, 12:48 PM
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Ok, seems to me like we've ended up with one badass gish.
Does anyone see anything that we can still improve here or that merits modifications, or can I call this on a done deal?

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PhantasyPen
2018-06-30, 12:49 PM
Hmm, giving everything one more look-over I think we're just about golden. This looks like an amazing class that I would love to have in a game. Just a couple of things I think you might want to look over as part of proof-reading:


You should really change all instances of "SL" and "CL" with "spell level" and "caster level" respectively. I know what you meant because I've been going over this class with you, but I know for a fact that some of my players would not know what those mean and would probably try to game the system by choosing the most advantageous interpretations of those acronyms.
For Ranged Arcane Channel, is "any ranged spell with a focal point" supposed to include spells like Fireball? Because technically any spell with a radius has a focal point. If not, maybe try wording it like "any spell that requires a ranged attack roll" for clarity's sake



(Wow, I just noticed that like 70%-ish of my recommended edits were just about clarifying how things are worded. :redface:)

nonsi
2018-06-30, 01:27 PM
Hmm, giving everything one more look-over I think we're just about golden. This looks like an amazing class that I would love to have in a game.


One of those rare cases where things fall into place :smile:






You should really change all instances of "SL" and "CL" with "spell level" and "caster level" respectively. I know what you meant because I've been going over this class with you, but I know for a fact that some of my players would not know what those mean and would probably try to game the system by choosing the most advantageous interpretations of those acronyms.



Done.






For Ranged Arcane Channel, is "any ranged spell with a focal point" supposed to include spells like Fireball? Because technically any spell with a radius has a focal point. If not, maybe try wording it like "any spell that requires a ranged attack roll" for clarity's sake



Done.





(Wow, I just noticed that like 70%-ish of my recommended edits were just about clarifying how things are worded. :redface:)


Wording things correctly and clearly is important.
And the remaining 30% were invaluable :cool:

And this is also the place to thank ObliviMancer for her contribution :cool:

nonsi
2018-07-03, 01:50 AM
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Bladeweaver feats added. Feedback would be most welcome.

Ideas for more feats would be nice as well.
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PhantasyPen
2018-07-03, 12:43 PM
This is the first thing that came to mind:



Prerequisite: Arcane Channeling class feature, 3rd-level arcane spells
Benefit: If you confirm a critical hit while channeling a spell that deals hitpoint damage, the spell's damage is multiplied alongside your weapon's damage dice.

EDIT: and this is the second thing



Prerequisite: Arcane Channeling class feature, Improved Shield Bash
Benefit: If you have used your Arcane Channeling class feature this round and are wielding a shield, you may spend an attack of opportunity to subject a creature that attacks you in melee to the effects of the spell that you channeled.

I like shield builds okay?

nonsi
2018-07-04, 06:55 AM
This is the first thing that came to mind:



EDIT: and this is the second thing


I like shield builds okay?


I like Shield Channel.
I'll skip Critical Channeling, because I want to leave some places for noncasters to shine.

ShiningStarling
2018-07-04, 08:56 AM
Perhaps feats that expand the things Augmented Warfare applies to? One for saves, grapples, trips, perhaps even feats that allow channelling spells whilst grappling, tripping, etc.?

Other than maybe a gestalt feat for Initiators, I think that about covers my 2 coppers.

nonsi
2018-07-04, 04:22 PM
Perhaps feats that expand the things Augmented Warfare applies to? One for saves, grapples, trips, perhaps even feats that allow channelling spells whilst grappling, tripping, etc.?

Other than maybe a gestalt feat for Initiators, I think that about covers my 2 coppers.

2 feats added: Augmented Resilience and Channeling Grappler :smile:

nonsi
2018-07-04, 05:20 PM
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I've been having some thoughts regarding a bit of rearrangement of class abilities at levels 1 and 2.

1. Arcane Attunement means that the class has more spell output at the early levels than any full caster out there. It seems within reason to remove this feature and add its spells to the list of zero level Bladeweaver spells.
2. It's very intuitive to me that Somatic Weaponry would precede Arcane Channeling, so I was thinking of moving Combat Casting to 1st level instead of Arcane Attunement and put Somatic Weaponry at 2nd.