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DanielLC
2007-09-08, 04:05 PM
Lawyer (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0282.html)

Alignment: Any nonchaotic nonevil.

Hit Die: d4.

Class Skills:
Bluff (Cha), Decipher Script (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Gather Information (Cha), Knowledge (Law) (Int), Perform (Oratory) (Cha), Profession (Law) (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis) (for reading the fine print).

Skill Points at 1st Level: (2 + Int modifier) 4.

Skill Points at Each Additional Level 2 + Int modifier.

Class Features:

Weapon and Armor Proficiency:
A lawyer isn't proficient with any weapons or armor; however it is still considered a very bad idea to attack one.

Bonus Languages:
A lawyer may substitute Latin (or whatever dead language the oldest of laws where written in) for one of the bonus languages available to the character because of his race.



Crooked Lawyer

Hit Die: d4.

Alignment: Any nonchaotic nongood.

Class Skills:
Bluff (Cha), Decipher Script (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (Law) (Int), Perform (Oratory) (Cha), Profession (Law) (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis) (for reading the fine print).

Skill Points at 1st Level: (2 + Int modifier) 4.

Skill Points at Each Additional Level 2 + Int modifier.

Class Features:

Weapon and Armor Proficiency:
A crooked lawyer isn't proficient with any weapons or armor; however it is still considered a very bad idea to attack one.

Stigma:
Any lawyer or judge in the area of a crooked lawyer, along with anyone who makes a DC 15 knowledge (local) check, knows he's a crooked lawyer. They will expect the worst of him, getting a +5 bonus on sense motive checks against him and forgery checks on documents he gave them. He will attract mostly guilty clients if he is a criminal attorney, or clients with no case if he is a civil attorney.

Table: The Lawyer or Crooked Lawyer:
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save

1st|
+0|
+0|
+0|
+0

2nd|
+1|
+0|
+0|
+0

3rd|
+1|
+1|
+1|
+1

4th|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+1

5th|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+1

6th|
+3|
+2|
+2|
+2

7th|
+3|
+2|
+2|
+2

8th|
+4|
+2|
+2|
+2

9th|
+4|
+3|
+3|
+3

10th|
+5|
+3|
+3|
+3

11th|
+5|
+3|
+3|
+3

12th|
+6|
+4|
+4|
+4

13th|
+6|
+4|
+4|
+4

14th|
+7|
+4|
+4|
+4

15th|
+7|
+5|
+5|
+5

16th|
+8|
+5|
+5|
+5

17th|
+8|
+5|
+5|
+5

18th|
+9|
+6|
+6|
+6

19th|
+9|
+6|
+6|
+6

20th|
+10|
+6|
+6|
+6[/table]

Knowledge (Law):
Can only be used for law, but the DC of checks is 10 lower then the relevent check from Knowledge (Local).

Profession (Law):

Writing contracts: Opposed by a decipher script check to interpret (interpreter gets a +5 bonus, but he can misinterpret like normal) or reinterpret (interpreter gets a -5 penalty. If he succeeds, he can skew the contract to be more favorable towards him.)
Lawyers usually summarize the contract in plain common, so the interpret check isn't needed (but it can still be done if the interpreter doesn't trust the lawyer, with a +10 bonus instead of +5, so long as the lawyer isn't lieing).

Synergy:
If you have 5 or more points in Profession (Law), you get a +2 bonus in Knowledge (Law) checks or Knowledge (Local) checks about law.
---
Should I add abilities? Any ideas on adding requirements to crooked lawyer? Should I just make it a seperate class? Should I add a judge class?

Solo
2007-09-08, 04:08 PM
What do they... um.... do?

BRC
2007-09-08, 04:23 PM
What do they... um.... do?
OBJECTION: the purpose of the class is not on trial here!

Kaelaroth
2007-09-08, 04:26 PM
Add abilities!!! Make these money-sucking fiends as fun as they should be!

i.e.
habeus corpus: forces incorporeal critters onto the material plane?

DracoDei
2007-09-08, 06:11 PM
I once created a modified Deck of Many Things that had some pretty amusing cards in it. One of them granted you the services of a 4th level expert (lawyer). Maxed ranks in bluff, sense motive, Profession(Law), and Diplomacy. Alignment as character served on the law-chaos axis, but always evil... like I said it was intended for humor value.

DanielLC
2007-09-08, 07:10 PM
What do they... um.... do?

Do you think you can massacre the BBEG's minions without going on trial for quite a few counts of muder? Even if they knew they weren't just gaurding a rich paranoid guy, if you kill enough of them it will cause serios problems. Every minion you kill can mean another widowed mother trying to fend for herself and her children.


Add abilities!!! Make these money-sucking fiends as fun as they should be!

i.e.
habeus corpus: forces incorporeal critters onto the material plane?

For the crooked lawyers, I was thinking about having plane shift so they can have a devil review their case and give them help. They might summon a devil instead. Another idea I had was to make a devil replace them, like in the Lord of Nightmares (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/lordOfNightmares.htm) Epic spell, but with a devil, the devil looks like them, and the devil knows thier case. It would be used during court in an emergency, although it could be used for combat.

I was also thinking of making the crooked lawyers have to be trained by a devil in order to level up, or at least in order to begin the class.

Do you think I should add these abilities? Do you have ideas for any others? How about some ability that lets them use their bluff check to get the jury to focus on something irrelevent (with a penalty if that's a lie too)?

Meeeeebit
2007-09-09, 05:42 AM
I just gotta say this!

Make the lawyers main abillities something like Court orders, Sueing and all that other pointless Law & order junk that would be sooo funny.:smallbiggrin:

Kurald Galain
2007-09-09, 06:53 AM
Sue
Whenever the lawyer is target of any creature's special ability, or takes damage from any of that creature's attacks, the lawyer may sue that creature. This is a full-day action that provokes many attacks of opportunity. The creature must make a Will save (difficulty of the lawyer's level plus any skill ranks in knowledge: bureaucracy); if the creature fails, he must pay the lawyer 100 gp per point by which he failed his save, or its equivalent in goods or services.

Restraining Order
As a full-round action, a lawyer may cast Hold Monster once per day, as a red tape-like abilitity. For every three levels in lawyer, he can use this ability an additional time per day. The save DC is equal to 10 + the amount of D&D rulebooks the lawyer's player has with him.

DanielLC
2007-09-09, 03:40 PM
Can't anyone sue anyone whenever they want?

I'm pretty certain restraining orders only apply to people. As such, it would be hold person.

I don't know much about all the stuff lawyers can do, but more importantly, there's no reason it would be the same in a nation in a D&D game. I also don't think anything legal counts as an ability.

I'll add a magic Item, though:
Giant Boot (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0280.html)
"If the boot doesn't fit, you must aquit."
If this item is used in court, the opposing lawyer must make a DC 15 will save or be too distracted to hear the user's arguments.

Threeshades
2007-09-09, 04:01 PM
I think the crooked lawyer should be always evil and non-chaotic, but they may be lawful. I mean okay they're bending the law but at first they are trying to use glitches in the system to get as much out of any law for their own benefit as they can.

Non-crooked lawyers should have a good willsave bonus and get the access to any non-chaotic and non-evil alignment since they are trying to find justice if that has to mean going over a law it should be alright for them since an innocent shouldnt be convicted just because something written down somewhere makes it impossible to avoid.

And how about Craft (Contract) as a class skill?

Enzario
2007-09-09, 04:04 PM
First of all, Bluff HAS to be a class skill.
Now, lets see...
Legalese (Su)
This exceedingly complicated and confusing language can only be understood by lawyers. Even then, a DC 15 Decipher Script check is required to avoid drawing false conclusions from it. A lawyer adds this to his list of languages known at 1st level. This is a secret language, and any lawyer that teaches it to a non-lawyer is promptly disgraced and forced into becoming a state-appointed defense attorney.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency
A lawyer is automatically proficient with any and all reams of paper, Very Expensive Pens, and Wordplay. A lawyer is not proficient with any form of armor, and is not proficient with any shield except The Shield of Law.

Red Tape (Su)
Once per day per two class levels, a lawyer may, as an immediate action, drench an opposing creature in a quagmire of legal rules and regulations. This creature may not act during its next turn, and is considered flat-footed against any attack against it. At the end of the encounter, the lawyer may bill any one of his allies for an amount equal to the HD of the affected monster x 5000 gp.

Mewtarthio
2007-09-09, 04:49 PM
Inevitable Deception

At tenth level, the Crooked Lawyer is so good at misrepresenting the facts that he can exert a certain degree of control against inevitables. Once per week, the Crooked Lawyer can attempt to call a Zelekhut to track down one of his enemies. The Crooked Lawyer must make a DC 20 Knowledge (law) or Profession (lawyer) check and must have at least heard of the target. The result of this check must be recorded. Upon success, the Crooked Lawyer has uncovered some obsure law the target might have broken and might have evaded punishment for. The Zelekut will pursue the target as normal; however, it may be banished if another Lawyer or Crooked Lawyer in the employ of the target can beat the original check result by 5 or more (unless the target actually has broken the law and evaded punishment).

At thirteenth level, the Crooked Lawyer can call a Kolyarut. He gains a +5 circumstance bonus to the Knowledge (law) or Profession (lawyer) check if he has the target's signature or arcane mark on any sort of document with words.

At sixteenth level, the Crooked Lawyer can call a Marut. He gains a +5 bonus on the check if the target has ever been exposed to magic from the Conjuration (healing) subschool, and an additional +5 bonus if the target has been resurrected, reincarnated, cloned, or otherwise restored from the dead by any means other than salient divine abilities (and, really, who'd mess with someone who's been resurrected by salient divine abilities anyway?).

JackMage666
2007-09-09, 08:18 PM
I dunno, thise abilities are starting to look like PC abilities.

I've rarely seen good NPC classes, as they're not supposed to be able to do hardly anything. A good Lawyer would be an Expert, and it wuld far surpass this model. Sorry, the base crooked lawyer is worse than a Commoner.

TheLogman
2007-09-09, 09:28 PM
I agree! Remove the "N", and make a full-fledged champion of Law, that bends the books of the universe to their will, subverting the very fabric of reality!

DanielLC
2007-09-09, 10:37 PM
I added a part for contracts. What I currently have is weaker than a commoner, but a crooked lawyer can still easily defeat a high-level adventurer in his own brand of combat. The abilities you're giving largely don't make any sense. How would a lawyer recite a quagmire of rules as an immidiate action? Why would legalese be supernatural?

One person suggested making the crooked lawyers control inevitables. Unless the lawyer lives on the lawful plane, he won't know their laws. Even if he did, crooked lawyers don't so much win cases as make them take so long the other guy can't afford to continue and settles.

It might be interesting to have a prestige class that has lawyer as a prerequisite but involves finding loopholes in the laws of physics, but in the D&D universe, they'd just be munchkins. If anyone would like to make a lawyer of physics class, feel free.

Xuincherguixe
2007-09-09, 10:44 PM
I would change it to any Lawful. Because jokes aside, there are some good lawyers out there. And this doesn't seem like it's supposed to be a joke class.

DracoDei
2007-09-10, 01:06 AM
And this doesn't seem like it's supposed to be a joke class.
I strongly disagree...

earlblue
2007-09-10, 08:57 AM
I don't suppose anyone here is reading law?:smallcool:

I say, remove the alignment restriction. Knowing the law doesn't equate to being lawful. If there is no chaotic lawyers and judges out there, there is no real need for lawyers and judges.

And the good lawyers are often crooked...:smallbiggrin:

And the most obvious PRC for lawyers? Judges...

OBeQuiet UWannaBe

I'll go back in time and shoot Lord Dennings if I ever invented a time machine!

OBjection (Su).

The lawyer has the supernatural ability to object anything. Everything and everyone must paused momentarily for a judge (usually the DM) to substain or overrule the objection.

E.g. I roll a to-hit... I hit!

"Objection!"

DM looking at the tables on the DM screen twice over again to make sure that the roll is indeed, a hit....

"Overule!"

Full Secret Trust (Su)

The supernatural ability to inflict/create a full secret trust (at -10) that will only materialize at the death of the subject of the trust.

Half Secret Trust (Su)

The supernatural ability to inflict/create a half secret trust (at -5) that will only materialize at the death of the subject of the trust.

AKA_Bait
2007-09-10, 10:25 AM
Dude... you forgot to make bluff a class skill for them... all lawyers should get that, not just the crooked ones.

DanielLC
2007-09-10, 09:45 PM
Even if the lawyer knows his client is guilty, the lawyer must act as though he's innocent. Okay, I guess I'll give him bluff.



OBjection (Su).

The lawyer has the supernatural ability to object anything. Everything and everyone must paused momentarily for a judge (usually the DM) to substain or overrule the objection.

E.g. I roll a to-hit... I hit!

"Objection!"

DM looking at the tables on the DM screen twice over again to make sure that the roll is indeed, a hit....

"Overule!"

This is an NPC class. Why would the DM object to himself?

Also, for secret trust, that isn't something common. Lawyers shouldn't have an ability for it.


I would change it to any Lawful. Because jokes aside, there are some good lawyers out there. And this doesn't seem like it's supposed to be a joke class.

Lawyers are the good ones and crooked lawyers are the bad ones. Which am I supposed to change to any lawful?
This class kind of is a joke, but I want it to be realistic. These should be the lawyers you're hiring. Also, if you use it, please add a judge prestige class.

Seriously, though, I kind of wish I didn't make this class. I feel like this thread is getting out of hand. If any of you want to make a more joke-based lawyer, feel free.

Should crooked lawyer be a PrC, or just a different class?

earlblue
2007-09-10, 10:10 PM
Even if the lawyer knows his client is guilty, the lawyer must act as though he's innocent. Okay, I guess I'll give him bluff.


This is an NPC class. Why would the DM object to himself?

Also, for secret trust, that isn't something common. Lawyers shouldn't have an ability for it.



Heh... you are not thinking like a DM. You are thinking like a player.

The DM must have (what we commonly called) the 'split personality' mind set in order to function as a DM. This is because :smallcool: the DM is everyone and everything other then the player characters. If the rest of the world is just one big happy family... You are running a conspiracy campaign.:smalleek:

So I submit that the DM must be able to object to himself. Well, one part of himself should be able to object to another part of himself. IT will drive the players bonkers.

Secret trusts are more common then you think. It is the creation of a trust where certain aspect of the trust is kept secret. Probably the reason why you think it is not common IS because they are suppose to be secrets. I only came to know about them when I took 'Trust' and 'Tort' during my 2nd year of reading UK law. However, the frequency of secret trust is not the deciding factor. Secret trusts and half secret trusts are coined by lawyers and the academics. They are the only one who can set up secret and half secret trusts properly.

And yes. This is a law joke that I came up with while studying...:smallbiggrin:

But come on! With so much lawyer jokes floating around - google 'Lawyer jokes' and a ton of them appears - you honestly expect a Lawyer NPC class to NOT turn into some sort of joke?:smallredface:

Rockphed
2007-09-10, 10:30 PM
I suggest you allow Chaotic lawyers. Just because you know the law does not mean that you will uphold it.

Also, Forgery should be a class skill for both(not just the crooked lawyers) as it is the only skill that can detect a Forgery.

JackMage666
2007-09-11, 12:16 AM
Being a Lawyer is a thing of law. A chaotic lawyer is an oxymoron. You would be miserable every day of your life, due to the fact that you're upholding an institution that goes against your core beliefs.

Lawyers should be Lawful. The best lawyers are actually Lawful Neutral, not Lawful Good, because they are supposed to be the face of cold hard logic, not moral compasses. Lawful Evil lawyers are also common, as they are willing to extract money and other losses from people, and have not even a slight pang of guilt in doing so.

Think of it this way -

Woman gets burned by coffee. She sues, and the lawyer explains she can only get her money back, as well as the money needed for medical bills (LN)
Woman gets burned by coffee. She sues, and the lawyer wins her 1 million dollars, as well as the same restraunt she burned herself in (LE)

One is upholding the law as it should be, one is grossly missusing it to make the law a horrible, horrible thing.

ImpFireball
2007-09-11, 01:17 AM
Lawyer (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0282.html)

Alignment: Any nonchaotic nonevil.


That's uh... that's the first thing wrong there. What proof is there that some lawyers truly aren't evil?

Chaotic lawyers'd be a pretty hard strung at their jobs by the way. Really. Running a firm is actually pretty hard. Hell, running anything can be hard. Starting a business is hard. It's real life. But then again, this is D&D.

AKA_Bait
2007-09-11, 10:06 AM
Should crooked lawyer be a PrC, or just a different class?

Honestly, it probably shouldn't be two classes at all. The essential skills for a crooked lawyer and an honest one aren't all that different it's just how they put those skills to use that is.

A judge PrC is a neat idea.

mroozee
2007-09-11, 10:59 AM
(currently in law school - will take the bar in 2008)

I see two ways to go with this in a non-joking way; a city-based lawyer whose talents give them advantages over others through the legal system and a magically-based lawyer - the kind that write the contracts demons use in soul purchases. The latter is probably better as a prestige class. A rough conceptual outline follows:

Skills: Bluff, Knowledge/Profession (Law), Intimidate, Sense Motive, Gather Information, Perform (Oratory), Diplomacy, Decipher Script

Hit Dice: d4
BAB: Mage
Good Saves: Will

Available Prestige Classes: Judge, Devil's Advocate

Lawyers in a fantasy setting take on roles ranging from a Royal or Church Adviser, Emissary, or Researcher. What follows differs dramatically from the U.S. legal system. No guarantee - express or implied. Consult an attorney for any real-world legal issues.

Lawyers have well-established connections to their organization, local judges and possibly others as well. Their power stems from their knowledge of the system and their ability to either get others to act on their behalf under the authority (for guards) or threat (for most others) of the law or to persuade a judge to use their actual authority on the lawyer's behalf.

Judges take on a more specific role - Within their jurisdiction, fantasy judges essentially settle legal matters. They are protected by the relevant government and (depending upon level) can directly order fines, imprisonment, enslavement, or even execution that the guard enforces. High level judges can change laws that they believe are not working and (on rare occasions) even over-rule the government they represent.

A lawyer who is thrown out of a bar will threaten the owner with legal action or possibly call in a guard to make his point. A judge who is thrown out of a bar has the owner locked up for three days to send a message.

The Devil's Advocate is a lawyer that uses magic to their advantage. Scribe Scroll and probably some spell casting abilities would be a requirement while Craft Magical Contract would be a class ability. They would focus on Mind Affecting and Compulsion spells but also use spells to gather information, communicate and possibly enforce their Contracts. As with earthly lawyers, the Devil's Advocate is all about working her connections - but now they can be of a supernatural origin. The threat of negotiating with a Demon is often enough to get the other side to settle.

mroozee
2007-09-11, 11:14 AM
Woman gets burned by coffee. She sues, and the lawyer explains she can only get her money back, as well as the money needed for medical bills (LN)
Woman gets burned by coffee. She sues, and the lawyer wins her 1 million dollars, as well as the same restraunt she burned herself in (LE)

One is upholding the law as it should be, one is grossly missusing it to make the law a horrible, horrible thing.

Or closer to reality:

Mega-corp Dining has 700 injury complaints for brewing coffee that is dangerously hot (about 50F above normal coffee temperatures). McD ignores same as it deems the price of litigation is insignificant compare to their coffee sales.

An elderly woman buys cup of coffee that spills in her lap. Rather than the normal burning that you would expect, she suffers 3rd degree burns over 6% of her body. She tries to settle with McD for $20K for her injuries but is rebuffed. At trial, she is found 20% responsible for her injuries and receives $160K from a jury for actual injuries. Because McD was aware of the dangers, punitive damages are huge - but reduced to 3x actual injuries or $480K.

Rather than appealing, McD restaurant enters into a private settlement. Oh, and then McD starts the spin cycle so that they sound like the victim of a legal system gone wild.

BlackStaticWolf
2007-09-11, 11:55 AM
As a law student, I endorse this class.

I'd suggest adding a couple different class skills based on the lawyers area of focus. Kind of like a clerics domain skills.

As someone else said, the only alignment restriction should be lawful.


Or closer to reality:

Mega-corp Dining has 700 injury complaints for brewing coffee that is dangerously hot (about 50F above normal coffee temperatures). McD ignores same as it deems the price of litigation is insignificant compare to their coffee sales.

An elderly woman buys cup of coffee that spills in her lap. Rather than the normal burning that you would expect, she suffers 3rd degree burns over 6% of her body. She tries to settle with McD for $20K for her injuries but is rebuffed. At trial, she is found 20% responsible for her injuries and receives $160K from a jury for actual injuries. Because McD was aware of the dangers, punitive damages are huge - but reduced to 3x actual injuries or $480K.

Rather than appealing, McD restaurant enters into a private settlement. Oh, and then McD starts the spin cycle so that they sound like the victim of a legal system gone wild.

Hurray fellow law student who's actually read the case! :smallbiggrin: There's no surer way of setting me off than citing that case when talking about runaway juries.

purple gelatinous cube o' Doom
2007-09-11, 11:55 AM
Personally, I would think a lawyer would have to be lawful, and not just nonchaotic.

Fay Graydon
2007-09-11, 02:20 PM
i think the crooked lawer should be evil, those lawyers are always up to somthing.
also, they must cost a small fortune to hire.

Xuincherguixe
2007-09-11, 07:41 PM
As far as Chaotic Lawyers go, it depends on what one considers chaotic.

Take the example of a guy who voluntarily takes on case against a company which has been dumping poison in the wetlands, despite no chance of getting money out of it. In other words, challenging the system with it's own rules.

It is effective sometimes.

But, I think the last thing we need is another alignment argument.

Mewtarthio
2007-09-11, 08:26 PM
As far as Chaotic Lawyers go, it depends on what one considers chaotic.

Take the example of a guy who voluntarily takes on case against a company which has been dumping poison in the wetlands, despite no chance of getting money out of it. In other words, challenging the system with it's own rules.

It is effective sometimes.

But, I think the last thing we need is another alignment argument.

I'd consider challenging the system with its own rules to be lawful. It shows you think the system works on a basic level and only needs to be tweaked through pre-defined systematic methods. A chaotic guy would claim that the system is worthless for protecting the poison-dumpers and stop the dumpers as expeditiously as possible, legality-be-damned.

DanielLC
2007-09-12, 10:26 PM
(currently in law school - will take the bar in 2008)

I see two ways to go with this in a non-joking way; a city-based lawyer whose talents give them advantages over others through the legal system and a magically-based lawyer - the kind that write the contracts demons use in soul purchases. The latter is probably better as a prestige class. A rough conceptual outline follows:

Skills: Bluff, Knowledge/Profession (Law), Intimidate, Sense Motive, Gather Information, Perform (Oratory), Diplomacy, Decipher Script

Hit Dice: d4
BAB: Mage
Good Saves: Will

Available Prestige Classes: Judge, Devil's Advocate

Lawyers in a fantasy setting take on roles ranging from a Royal or Church Adviser, Emissary, or Researcher. What follows differs dramatically from the U.S. legal system. No guarantee - express or implied. Consult an attorney for any real-world legal issues.

Lawyers have well-established connections to their organization, local judges and possibly others as well. Their power stems from their knowledge of the system and their ability to either get others to act on their behalf under the authority (for guards) or threat (for most others) of the law or to persuade a judge to use their actual authority on the lawyer's behalf.

Judges take on a more specific role - Within their jurisdiction, fantasy judges essentially settle legal matters. They are protected by the relevant government and (depending upon level) can directly order fines, imprisonment, enslavement, or even execution that the guard enforces. High level judges can change laws that they believe are not working and (on rare occasions) even over-rule the government they represent.

A lawyer who is thrown out of a bar will threaten the owner with legal action or possibly call in a guard to make his point. A judge who is thrown out of a bar has the owner locked up for three days to send a message.

The Devil's Advocate is a lawyer that uses magic to their advantage. Scribe Scroll and probably some spell casting abilities would be a requirement while Craft Magical Contract would be a class ability. They would focus on Mind Affecting and Compulsion spells but also use spells to gather information, communicate and possibly enforce their Contracts. As with earthly lawyers, the Devil's Advocate is all about working her connections - but now they can be of a supernatural origin. The threat of negotiating with a Demon is often enough to get the other side to settle.

I like that idea. Good name for the prestige class, too.

I'm tired of this thread and do not want to continue after the second page. I won't look at this thread again, but, mroozee, if you want to flesh it out, PM me the completed version so I can edit this.

WrstDmEvr
2007-10-14, 06:49 PM
why can't a lawyer be evil?

EDIT: why can't a regular lawyer be evil?

Riffington
2007-10-14, 08:44 PM
why can't a lawyer be evil?

EDIT: why can't a regular lawyer be evil?

Yes. Both types of lawyers should be permitted to be any alignment.

Better still, give both types identical stats and abilities. The only difference should be starting gold.

Ilgivan
2007-10-15, 09:31 AM
There's a lawyer class of some kind in the BoEF, if I'm remembering right.

That one's a PrC though, and I think it requires you to be lawful, non-evil, have a BAB of +3, take the negotiator feat, get 8 ranks in diplomacy and two in sense motive, and also take some sort of oath.

Gives you extra caster levels in divine classes.