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View Full Version : D&D 3.x Other Homebrewers Unite! (Game Rebuilding)



Climowitz
2018-06-26, 02:00 AM
Introduction:
The idea is simple, let's restart Dungeons and Dragons 3.5 Edition, we begin with the fact that rules are as they are right now, and everything can be changed. We'll take out every base class, race and prestige classes, and we will add or change whatever we want. Adding homebrew made by other people or made by yourself.

Objective:
The main objective is to end with a revamped version of Dungeons and Dragons 3.5 Edition, made by the players and base on the designers game, using the homebrew of many collaborators. We should have a new index of Base Classes, Playable Races, NPC Races, Prestige Classes, Subsystems, Rework of Previous Systems, New and/or Variant Skills, New Spells / Powers / Incantations / Etc. New Feats, New Templates, New Mechanics, Fixes, New Magic and Mundane Items, Deities, Worlds, Dungeons and whatever you want to add.

The Rules:
Let's set some boundaries so this doesn't goes off hand.

Whatever is added will be simple, and easy to understand, the more organized it is, the better. If someone wants to even add templates to base classes, prestige classes, races, etc. That would be even better.
Everything that is not a comment or suggestion will be added as a Spoiler, and if it is a reference to a different page, it will be copied and pasted in the comment, to avoid the reference from being removed from the different page.
I will try to keep things as updated as possible, and if i meet with two different suggestions for the same topic, i will try to add the one that has more support, or both as different choices for the same thing.
Nothing can't be added, however let's try to keep it balanced and coherent. Let's focus on the very same idea D&D has, and stay away from, space, futuristic technology, or even modern.
I'll set up some limits for every category to make it universal.



[Classes] Base Classes must be 20 Levels, while Prestige Classes must be 3, 5 or 10 Levels.
[Races] Playable Races must always be LA+0, have total scores of 0 and a base size of Small, Medium or Large. NPC Classes can be any LA, size and ability scores.
[Feats] Reworked feats must always have the same name as the old, while new ones must have Name, Prerequisites, Benefit and Category.
[Spells] Spells should suggest to which spell list would have belonged to.
[Subsystems] Every new subsystem must be completely compatible with the old ones.
[Reworked System] Any system already existing, must have a rule set to be adapted and not just be a rewrite, so new subsystems could be compatible with them.
[Other] Keep whatever you add as easily merged with what other people might add.


The Results:
Here will go everything that is added, i will try to have it as clean and easy to read as possible, if thread gets too big, a Google Docs Sheet will be used.
Alchemist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?40967-The-Alchemist)
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Arcane Magic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?233664-Arcane-Magic-Base-Class-and-System-Overhaul-WIP-PEACH)
5'-Step:
5'-Step can be taken either as a swift action or a move action.


Ability-Score Progression:
Characters add 1 point to one ability score at each level (including 1st).
You cannot increase the same ability twice in 2 consecutive levels, and you cannot push your racial ability-score limits (18 + racial ability-score-adjustment) faster than +1 per 4 class levels via level-progression alone.
This adheres to the notion that practice makes perfect, and serves as a decent compensation for a bad start and/or MAD. It also puts yet a greater impact on level progression vs. gear.
Special: Once per 6 character levels, a general feat can be used to raise one's ability score and ability limits by +1.


Caster-Level Boost:
No matter how, why, where, when or who - CL boosting is never ever cumulative. All CL boosting factors of all kinds overlap.
This rule takes care of many cases where exceedingly high CL breaks the game (e.g. Blasphemy spell)


Diplomacy:
Redefinition: http://www.thealexandrian.net/creati...diplomacy.html
Motivation: http://www.thealexandrian.net/creati...cy-design.html
Note: Diplomacy is ineffective in combat, unless you actually know something of relevance to your target that would make it pause and think.


Feats turned into combat options available for all:
PA: As per PF
Weapon Finesse: Applicable automatically to all light & finesseable weapons you're proficient with.
Combat Expertise: As per PF. You may also do the exact opposite which is to fight recklessly and trade AC for better hit chances.
Cleave: Whenever you fell an opponent and another opponent is within melee reach, you may follow-through your attack to the second opponent, using the same attack roll.


Favored Classes and Multiclassing:
There are no favored classes and no multiclassing XP penalties of any sort and for any reason!
It is long since time to throw away this extra baggage carried over to 3e from BECMI & AD&D.


Full Attack:
Full attack is a standard action (so, yes, move then full attack).


Gaze Attacks and On-Sight influences:
Gaze attacks are once-per-round free actions that target a single creature. Gaze attacks are free actions that may be taken out-of-turn.
Some creatures passively influence creatures upon sight. When the effect is a negative morale-related condition, if multiple creatures are encountered at the same time, the check to resist is made only once, with a cumulative -1 penalty for each individual beyond the first.


High-Level Play and Magical Transportation:
Dungeons have an actual magical purpose. By putting anything behind at least 40 of solid, continuous material (like solid walls of dirt, stone, ice, or whatever, but not a forest of trees or rooms of furniture), the area is immune to unlimited-range or "longer than Long Range" spells like scry and transportation magic like teleport, greater teleport, the travel version of gate, and other effects. You can use these magics inside a dungeon, but you are also stopped by a 40 solid, continuous material in a Line of Effect; this means you can use these effects inside a dungeon to bypass doors and walls, but entering and leaving the dungeon is a problem, and parts of the dungeon that have more than 40 of material in the way between your position and the target of your effect will be effectively isolated from your position.
3' of lead or silver have the same effect.


Int Increment:
Apply extra skills from Int bonuses retroactively. It's only reasonable that someone who becomes more intelligent can learn new things, and otherwise, if you're making a character above first level, you'd have to go through all his levels to nail the end result.


Massive Damage:
Massive Damage is redefined as 50% of maximum health HP.
When subject to massive damage, a target needs to make a Fort save vs. DC = 10 +1/2 damage dealt.
- If the Save fails, the target is nauseated from the pain for 1d4 rounds.
- If the save succeeds, the target is sickened for 1d4 rounds.


PrCs and Spellcasting:
PrCs NEVER EVER advance spellcasting levels of other PrCs.


Spell Durations:
Apply the following changes when figuring the duration of a spell effect.
- Durations of [X] minutes/level now last [X] minutes.
- Durations of [X] hours/level now last [X] hours.
- Durations of [X] days/level now last [X] days.


Spell Ranges:
- Close: 30'
- Medium: 60'
- Long: 120'


Spell Targets & AoE:
- Target or Targets: All spells that affect one or more targets, no two of which can be more than a set distance from one another, have this set distance halved.
- Area: All bursts, cylinders, emanations, spheres, and spreads with a radius of 20 feet or more have their radius halved. All cones, cylinders, and lines with a length or height of 20 feet or more have their length or height halved. All shapeable spells, or spells that affect a number of squares or cubes, provide half as much shapeable area or affect half as many squares or cubes.


Summoning, Calling, Animation & Domination:
You cannot simultaneously maintain multiple effects that force creatures or objects to act against their will or nature - be they from calling, summoning, animating, possessing, telekinesis or whatever similar effect. This applies to spells, SLAs and innate powers.
Spawns work differently in 2 ways:
1. Spawns may have spawns.
2. Spawns w/ spells are each counted separately for this rule.

Skill Rework:
Class skills max ranks remain at Level + 3, and characters still get 4x skill points at 1st level.
Cross Class Skills only require spending 1 skill point to bump it up 1 rank. Cross Class Skill max ranks is still half your class skill max rank.
Once a skill becomes a class skill for any reason, it always remains a class skill for that character, even if you multi-class.
An increase in Intelligence retroactively increases the number of skill points you earn.
All classes receive at least 4 + Int modifier in skill points per level, and at most 8 + Int Modifier.
Skill List Consolidated: Acrobatics (Dex; Merged from Balance and Tumble, Grants Synergy Bonus to Fly and Athletics), Athletics (Str, Merged from Climb, Jump, and Swim), add the Fly skill from Pathfinder, Perception (Wis; merge Spot and Listen, grants synergy bonus to search), Merge Gather Information into Diplomacy, Use Handle Animal for animal empathy checks, Rename Sense Motive to Insight, Merge Open Lock into Disable Device, Stealth (Dex; Merged from Hide and Move Silently; Use a charisma-based stealth check in place of Disguise Checks), Replace Use Rope with Craft (Hitching; Dex) if needed; otherwise drop Use Rope, Linguistics (Cha; Merged from Forgery, Decipher Script, and Speak Language).
The Heal Skill should be given additional function, allowing players to use it to regain HP... or at the very least convert some lethal damage into non-lethal damage.
All Characters gain a single profession or craft skill as a class skill at level 1. They automatically receive 2 ranks in said skill.


Backgrounds: All classes receive a background package at level 1 in addition to their class features, racial features, class features, and their standard feat. A character's background functions similarly to backgrounds in D&D 5E, giving some general information about what the character did before becoming an Adventurer, what walk of life they lived, etc. Backgrounds must be made and approved of by the DM. A typical background package would come with a flavorful description and grant extra perks to a character... such as: adding a few extra class skills to the character and/or granting a few minor background bonuses to a couple skills (comparable to skill racial bonuses), may grant a bonus language or two, a possible bonus feat, etc. All background packages should be roughly equal in power.

For rough examples of background packages, check the Link to my Wheel of Time rework, and look up the backgrounds. Note: Backgrounds probably shouldn't be tied to specific nationalities, but more generic in nature. Something like "Street Rat", "Orphan", "Merchant", or "Scholar" works perfectly.

General Math tip: Try not to give flat +1 bonuses; flat bonuses should be at least a +2 and even numbered, unless you are giving a +5 bonus. Bonuses should scale according to something.


OK everybody, make you contributions, add whatever you like, whatever that is.

Climowitz
2018-06-26, 03:08 AM
Reserved in case of necessity.

noob
2018-06-26, 03:44 AM
There is multiple ways to go: either we balance around a given level of power(example: we do only T1 guys or only T3 people) Or we do not balance at all.

Climowitz
2018-06-26, 03:56 AM
There is multiple ways to go: either we balance around a given level of power(example: we do only T1 guys or only T3 people) Or we do not balance at all.

The more balanced the better, however, anybody can contribute with anything, and others may say its underpowered or overpowered, and tweak it.
I just want collaboration, every voice matters, so anyone can suggest or add whatever they want, and other say it's not fitted.

Eldan
2018-06-26, 04:04 AM
"More balanced" alone is not a thing. Balanced to what? But fine.

Ground up rework of magic:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?233664-Arcane-Magic-Base-Class-and-System-Overhaul-WIP-PEACH

Climowitz
2018-06-26, 04:16 AM
"More balanced" alone is not a thing. Balanced to what? But fine.

Ground up rework of magic:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?233664-Arcane-Magic-Base-Class-and-System-Overhaul-WIP-PEACH

Yep, balance is hard, but the more material there is, the easier will be to spot a line of balance. However i don't intend everything to be perfectly alined, specially when this should be a lot of people collaborating.

BTW, Added Arcane Magic to system.

nonsi
2018-06-26, 04:33 AM
.

1. Since you wish to continue calling it "D&D 3.5e", you should start by naming the things you intend to take from 3.5e that will remain as they are.
2. If you wish to end up with something more than a hodgepodge of changes that will not mess with one another, you'd better define your goals better, such as the kind of things you'd expect characters to be able to do at different character levels, how you intend to maintain sane RNG, etc.
3. If you go for all the trouble of changing things, why preserve NPC classes? Why not just say that NPCs are usually of lower level, or less optimized? Also, PrCs pose a serious problem as far as balance goes. It would be a good thing if you found a way to do without them.
4. Regarding subsystems: you're only be able to make those work together when you can see them. No hombrew material is perfect as presented for the first time. That's what PEACHing is for.


FYI, there's already a minimalistic fix that fixes all the known major problems of 3.5e (at least all that I've encountered since about 2005) while keeping it approximately 98% in tact: click the second link in my sig to find out.

A complete 3.5 overhaul is worth the effort only if you already have a clear vision in advance how to improve it on many aspects.

noob
2018-06-26, 04:34 AM
What are the spells of that system(the one which was just added).
And I would like to know how does it fix things relatively to the standard system(for example it does not fix at all the 15 minutes adventuring day problem at all?).
Would we not just be better off with spheres of power as a baseline of casting for example?(at least it fix the 15 minutes adventuring day problem)

Eldan
2018-06-26, 04:38 AM
What are the spells of that system(the one which was just added).
And I would like to know how does it fix things relatively to the standard system(for example it does not fix at all the 15 minutes adventuring day problem at all).
Would we not just be better off with spheres of power for example?

Hm? Of course it does! Sorcerers are fine after a short break, wizards need an hour of meditation to refresh spells. THat massively cuts down on wasted time. The spells are listed under their respective lores.

Climowitz
2018-06-26, 04:49 AM
This is merely a project for people to say, "hey i really like this class that SOMEBODY did" or "I made this i think is good". Compiled in a single thread, with a list and not spread among the whole forum. There is no goal with no specific classes or prestige or anything.

I'll soon start adding my own suggestions and things that feel really good for the game. I know prestige classes are a problem, but many people like them, and i don't want to completely remove them, or force them as a 10 level class with prerequisites met at level 10, although i would love that.

noob
2018-06-26, 05:05 AM
Hm? Of course it does! Sorcerers are fine after a short break, wizards need an hour of meditation to refresh spells. THat massively cuts down on wasted time. The spells are listed under their respective lores.
It fix the 15 minutes adventuring day partially(summoned creatures you throw in the fray comes only one day later so people will wait for their recoverable meat wall instead of killing their fighter) in a way but maybe it just make the cycle faster(go near enough the dungeon entrance to see the guards, cast all your spells, go back and restart)
So I would like a synopsis of what that system grant.
For example does it grants enough status removal spells for managing the effect of standard monsters(stuff like removing negative levels, stat drain, regrowing limbs and a bunch of others)
Do the added complexity improve it significantly relatively to core with a removal of the long lasting minionmancy spells(planar binding, simulacrum, create undead and the like), the polymorph spells and the broken spells(like miracle or wish or shades and other spells which grants any spell and/or do more)

Eldan
2018-06-26, 05:09 AM
It didn't aim at making anything stronger. Removing a lot of that stuff was an intended part of the goal. A lot of it was moved to ritual casting, too.

What it does is:
Make spellcasting easier to disrupt
Limit the amount of active spells a spellcaster can keep up
Limit how many spells wizards can know to limit their flexibility
Rewrite a few of the more broken spells
Change how spells are learned by grouping them into thematic lores that build on each other
Remove the 15 minute adventure day
Try to make Vancian casting a bit more fluffy in general.

noob
2018-06-26, 05:47 AM
It didn't aim at making anything stronger. Removing a lot of that stuff was an intended part of the goal. A lot of it was moved to ritual casting, too.

What it does is:
Make spellcasting easier to disrupt
Limit the amount of active spells a spellcaster can keep up
Limit how many spells wizards can know to limit their flexibility
Rewrite a few of the more broken spells
Change how spells are learned by grouping them into thematic lores that build on each other
Remove the 15 minute adventure day
Try to make Vancian casting a bit more fluffy in general.


Make spellcasting easier to disrupt now by default summons lasts a day as does control undead so the wizard can just do his minion army as usual(not of the same minion but you can use natural ally 1,natural ally 2,natural ally 3 and one controlled undead and the undead you animated by level 5 in wizard) and you can not disrupt the spells he did cast the morning.(idem if the spellcaster goes the buffing route) so the only spellcastings that are easier to disrupt are the ones done in battle such as fighting spells which are usually the least game breaking spells

Remove the 15 minute adventure day
When his minions die caster stops adventuring for a whole day and even if there is no minions then the wizard might decide to spend all his days preparing teleportation zones and teleporting back to those when he is tired and preparing spells again and so do spend most of his time preparing spells then preparing teleport then spend a minor time doing stuff out of that(he will also probably prepare one teleport in his home and one not too much far to the dungeon but not close enough for his opponent to find easily which means we can add one hour of walking in addition to the two teleportation preparation in the cycle).
Yes wizards are that much paranoid.

It probably fix broken spells by removing them(no wish or miracle or shades or simulacrum) which is by the way the only good way to fix them
And the Mind blank fix is just bad because people at high level does not wants mind controlling to happen because it is really a bad mechanic.(it is like killing someone and creating a minion at once so it is extremely annoying for the players to be hit by that)
Mind blank is considered a problem spell but it is not: the problem spells were all the dominate/charm/suggestion/scy spells which were setting breaking.



Limit the amount of active spells a spellcaster can keep up
Limit how many spells wizards can know to limit their flexibility
Not that much since you can go all wiz1/sorc1 and immediately have like 7 focus(thus you are able to keep 7 spells at once at level 2) and 8 spell known(ok a bit lower than a wizard for low level spells but then you will have free cantrips with at least one of them of high quality(that invisibility cantrip) basically increasing that total of at least 1)
Personally I had a wizard using just the 2 spells per level in core and it was already a lot of polyvalence so getting a bit less(35 spells at level 20 if you are wizard 19 / sorcerer 1 which is not a bad choice) is not that bad especially if you get cantrips that are pure awesomeness(I think it is a bit too much good since it is like if you had a free bonus focus) like the invisibility one.
What is missing however is a lot of fun stuff like reverse gravity or illusory wall.
I think there is a lot of spells which could be added to lores or to rituals that are not broken.

However good work on the fluff Eldan.
Personally for that magic system I would also make so that the first level in a class with spellcasting gives you more spell known and focus and rewrite the classes so that they give as many focuses and spells known when taking the first level when you have the boost for it to be the first spellcasting class you get.
Example: the wizard would get 0 focus and 2 spell known at level 1(and at the next levels of course he gets 3 less focuses and spells known than before) and 3 extra focuses and 3 extra spell known from gaining the first level in a caster class but then if you took a single level in sorcerer it would not bring again the extra focuses from being the first level in a caster class and so at that level you would only gain 1 focus and 0 spell known from that level therefore fixing how your system did give too much incentive for multiclassing (basically the more classes are added to the system the more the multiclass chain casters are powerful in your system for example if there was 20 sorcerer like classes with different names then you would just multiclass in all those classes and have at the end 80 focuses and 60 spells known which is better than any capstone).

Now I wonder would the varied hypermundanes fit in this balance or not?
In theory Eldan said his system aimed for tier three so spheres of power (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/variant-magic-rules/spheres-of-power/) probably fits with the rest.

Eldan
2018-06-26, 06:33 AM
Actually, another point was more spells on lower levels and fewer on higher levels, in comparison.

Disruption would mostly work by hitting casters with status effects, for long term spells. Tire them out, poison them, confuse them, that kind of thing. Until they can't hold up the spells.

And well, you usually shouldn't focus entirely on summons, I guess. That's a bit of an edge-case.

As for mundanes, another project I had for a while was integrating all combat maneuvers (down to power attack, bull rush and sneak attack) into a ToB-like system with fewer limitations. That would cover most mundanes.

That said, it's always been my view that characters above a certain level just shouldn't be mundane.

The mind blank fix is part of my personal homebrew philosophy where I just generally don't like any absolute effects, especially immunities. It either leads to weird stuff where the god of fire can't burn a fire giant and the god of tricksters can't charm the wizard, or to stupid escalating "break through immunity" feats.

As for the fun stuff, weeellll... writing lores is a lot of work. I don't consider that homebrew complete, it would need at least twice as many lores to be really workeable.

noob
2018-06-26, 06:36 AM
Actually, another point was more spells on lower levels and fewer on higher levels, in comparison.

Disruption would mostly work by hitting casters with status effects, for long term spells. Tire them out, poison them, confuse them, that kind of thing. Until they can't hold up the spells.

And well, you usually shouldn't focus entirely on summons, I guess. That's a bit of an edge-case.

As for mundanes, another project I had for a while was integrating all combat maneuvers (down to power attack, bull rush and sneak attack) into a ToB-like system with fewer limitations. That would cover most mundanes.

That said, it's always been my view that characters above a certain level just shouldn't be mundane.

Here is an hypermundane:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?433533-quot-I-will-crush-you-puny-mage!-quot-(3-5-hypermundane-class-PEACH)
Is it too much powerful or too much weak?(you get stuff like shrugging off status effect, cdg on hit and high stats and controlling someone for days by screaming at it and getting any feat without any of the conditions(start flying now!) building new stuff, applying a medikit on a corpse so hard it resurrects)

Eldan
2018-06-26, 06:38 AM
Oh, and Reverse Gravity is in the lore of forces.

Eldan
2018-06-26, 06:40 AM
Here is an hypermundane:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?433533-quot-I-will-crush-you-puny-mage!-quot-(3-5-hypermundane-class-PEACH)
Is it too much powerful or too much weak?

Seems okay. Not a class I'd play personally, but okay. I prefer more active classes, this one is a bit too much pile-of-numbers for my tastes.

noob
2018-06-26, 06:50 AM
The mind blank fix is part of my personal homebrew philosophy where I just generally don't like any absolute effects, especially immunities. It either leads to weird stuff where the god of fire can't burn a fire giant and the god of tricksters can't charm the wizard, or to stupid escalating "break through immunity" feats.

Then make all the mind control spells partial (Charm person for example is already awful and is an absolute: you will not try to harm the caster which is very annoying)


Seems okay. Not a class I'd play personally, but okay. I prefer more active classes, this one is a bit too much pile-of-numbers for my tastes.
Oh and you did not check the tricks but I think you will not consider that resurrecting someone by using first heal hard enough is a passive thing nor you will consider building rockets to send messages is passive nor you will consider shouting at people to stun them or to get them out of mind control or yet going through a dimensional rift(or breaking "Mostly anything including walls of force" through brute force) is passive either.
And you can retrain the tricks if your trick selection does not please you/ you need other tricks for your adventure.

Eldan
2018-06-26, 06:58 AM
Oh, you're right. I didn't see the tricks section. Most of those are still pretty passive, though there's a few on there I really don't like (Always Strike First). Still. Animal Companion, better senses, alchemy, rifts, stealth, action economy, yeah there's a lot of good stuff covered there.

Honestly, going over the entire mind control system into something that works better would be a massive undertaking and I'm not even sure where to start. Charm would be one that I would think is okay, in general. It's quite vague, it doesn't guarantee that the other person will actually help you, it has provisions that make it harder to use in a fight, there are inbuilt ways of breaking it. I wouldn't even say that the creature can't harm you: friends can still fight, if pressured.

noob
2018-06-26, 07:04 AM
Oh, you're right. I didn't see the tricks section. Most of those are still pretty passive, though there's a few on there I really don't like (Always Strike First). Still. Animal Companion, better senses, alchemy, rifts, stealth, action economy, yeah there's a lot of good stuff covered there.

Honestly, going over the entire mind control system into something that works better would be a massive undertaking and I'm not even sure where to start. Charm would be one that I would think is okay, in general. It's quite vague, it doesn't guarantee that the other person will actually help you, it has provisions that make it harder to use in a fight, there are inbuilt ways of breaking it. I wouldn't even say that the creature can't harm you: friends can still fight, if pressured.

An alternate to redoing all the mind control system is to keep mind blank as a nope button to mind control so that you no longer have to deal with it at high level.
That is what the base system does(there is also amulets of protection against evil if you use custom item crafting rules (Does not works against charm so you might still be mind controlled by someone with high charisma and some persuasive arguments))

Composer99
2018-06-26, 07:11 AM
Gotta be honest, basing a rebuild of 3.5 on what appears to be a "let's throw stuff at the wall and see what sticks" strategy doesn't inspire confidence.

The thing is, there are so many directions you could go down: nerf casters, buff martials, mix of both; skill points, no skill points; change how full attack works, don't change it; and so on.

Without an objective in mind it could be tricky to get something coherent at the very least.

Eldan
2018-06-26, 07:12 AM
An alternate to redoing all the mind control system is to keep mind blank as a nope button to mind control so that you no longer have to deal with it at high level.

THat is, I think just a wrong direction to go in on this. Trickery is a popular archetype. It certainly is with me. Trickster monster, be they fey or trickster gods, are common all over. One spell should not cut out entire archetypes.

Eldan
2018-06-26, 07:13 AM
Gotta be honest, basing a rebuild of 3.5 on what appears to be a "let's throw stuff at the wall and see what sticks" strategy doesn't inspire confidence.

The thing is, there are so many directions you could go down: nerf casters, buff martials, mix of both; skill points, no skill points; change how full attack works, don't change it; and so on.

Without an objective in mind it could be tricky to get something coherent at the very least.

I just assumed this was intended as a homebrew list of stuff people liked.

We've had attempts at wholesale overhauls before. Gaols and Giants, for one. Age of Warriors for a more limited subset.

noob
2018-06-26, 07:26 AM
THat is, I think just a wrong direction to go in on this. Trickery is a popular archetype. It certainly is with me. Trickster monster, be they fey or trickster gods, are common all over. One spell should not cut out entire archetypes.

Having the councilor able to cast mind blank does not means the king will always benefit from it.
Just get to the councilor and give him an offer he can not refuse: he would let you mind control the king and in exchange you will give him a significant power over the kingdom while making that hard to see thanks to how you are better at being subtle than the councilor.
If the councilor tried to mind control the king himself he would not be very good at making the king favor him without that being seen.
Look the only mind control plots it makes impossible is if somehow there is incorruptible wizards with mind blank and who bypass the focus limit(and that are impossible to stab for lowering the amount of focus somehow) or if all the people that matter to mind control knows how to cast mind blank (even then you can mind control them after beating them).
I mean then with your logic you should not be fine with sword fighter not being able to sword one opponent because it is invisible and flying and that he can not know there is an invisible flying opponent 800 meters above him.(stuff like wizards that casts invisibility) so why would it be bad that to have one single person the trickster can not mind control without going through some intermediary steps(like how the fighter can then sword the opponent once he drinks a potion of see invisible and a potion of flight, the trickster can just stab the mind blanking wizard and mind control his target)?

Eldan
2018-06-26, 08:16 AM
Because there are ways around invisibility even for a low-level fighter. Dust. Foot tracks in the mud. Vegetation moving aside. Listening very carefully. Heck, even blind flailing, if you have to. But Mind Blank just says "No, not happening". Similar for flying: you can jump, you can go into cover, you can climb something high, you can get nets, or a catapult, or a bow, or just throw your weapons.

Climowitz
2018-06-26, 08:24 AM
I just assumed this was intended as a homebrew list of stuff people liked.

We've had attempts at wholesale overhauls before. Gaols and Giants, for one. Age of Warriors for a more limited subset.

This. Right now it's almost empty, as it get's filled, a level of balance or direction will be easier to define, but for now, it's just things every homebrewer likes made by himself or others.

Eldan
2018-06-26, 08:25 AM
Sure, but al ot of this stuff will just be generally incompatible. Like, what do you do if you have three barbarian fixes? If several people redo magic? If one person changes the skill system, but another person makes a skill-based class and they don't fit together at all?

If you want a ground-up change of the system, you must start at the broad organisational steps and define design goals.

noob
2018-06-26, 08:28 AM
Because there are ways around invisibility even for a low-level fighter. Dust. Foot tracks in the mud. Vegetation moving aside. Listening very carefully. Heck, even blind flailing, if you have to. But Mind Blank just says "No, not happening". Similar for flying: you can jump, you can go into cover, you can climb something high, you can get nets, or a catapult, or a bow, or just throw your weapons.

What the fighter could do against the flying invisible wizard I mentioned(which is level 3 and can do that all day long with only a focus cost of 1 point with your system)?
since the wizard is 800 meter high the fighter can not use dust, he can not see the foot tracks, he can not jump 800 meters high at the right spot(but he can probably jump 800 meters high) without seeing the invisible wizard(which is impossible with your version of invisibility because your version is stronger at range than the regular one) he will probably not go in cover if he is not aware of the wizard(which he might not be until the wizard drop the content of his bag of holding full of explosives) he can not throw his weapons at something flying and invisible so far away.
In fact against such a wizard you would need a way to see the super high invisible wizard which would need something like the ability to see invisible stuff.
furthermore all the solutions you gave are not brute force.
While you want the enchanter to bruteforce(just use a higher level spell) through the mind blank.
Why would your trickster(which means full of tricks and subtlety which is the opposite of brute force) enchanters face their problems just by casting harder their mind control spell(using a higher level spell which is the bruteforce version of spell-casting) while the sword fighter(who is here just to sword!) would solve their problems through subtlety?
Unless you allow your player to bypass the protection of the flying invisible wizard he does not know the existence of by saying SWOOOORD! then you should not allow the trickster to bypass mindblank by shouting stronger DOOOMINATE!
What I say is that the ways to ignore protections for the trickster should not be easier than the ways the fighter use to find the invisible flying wizard.(for example if mind blank had 100% efficiency and that you wanted to mind control the mind blanked person without anybody knowing you just need to use a poison(or manage to make so that the wizard gets food poisoning due to an incompetent cook to sicken the wizard) that weaken the mind in a non discernible way on the wizard and then the mind blank is away and you can just mind control your target and that is in fact an easy solution compared to having the sworder suddenly decide "oh I am level 3 and at that level levitating invisible wizards 800 meters high exists(possible to do all day long at level 3 with your system) so I am totally going to drink a potion of see invisible and watch out")

Climowitz
2018-06-26, 08:45 AM
Sure, but al ot of this stuff will just be generally incompatible. Like, what do you do if you have three barbarian fixes? If several people redo magic? If one person changes the skill system, but another person makes a skill-based class and they don't fit together at all?

If you want a ground-up change of the system, you must start at the broad organisational steps and define design goals.

Then people will select the one that fits the best. And changes to system or subsystems should be compatible with other things by setting an adaptation and not a complete transformation.

Eldan
2018-06-26, 08:51 AM
Ah, well, I'm out then. Small quickfixes don't solve 3.5's problems.

Durzan
2018-06-26, 08:52 AM
Skill Rework:

Class skills max ranks remain at Level + 3, and characters still get 4x skill points at 1st level.
Cross Class Skills only require spending 1 skill point to bump it up 1 rank. Cross Class Skill max ranks is still half your class skill max rank.
Once a skill becomes a class skill for any reason, it always remains a class skill for that character, even if you multi-class.
An increase in Intelligence retroactively increases the number of skill points you earn.
All classes receive at least 4 + Int modifier in skill points per level, but no more than 8 + Int Modifier.
Skill List Consolidated: Acrobatics (Dex; Merged from Balance and Tumble, Grants Synergy Bonus to Fly and Athletics), Athletics (Str, Merged from Climb, Jump, and Swim), add the Fly skill from Pathfinder, Perception (Wis; merge Spot and Listen, grants synergy bonus to search), Merge Gather Information into Diplomacy, Use Handle Animal for animal empathy checks, Rename Sense Motive to Insight, Merge Open Lock into Disable Device, Stealth (Dex; Merged from Hide and Move Silently; Use a charisma-based stealth check in place of Disguise Checks), Replace Use Rope with Craft (Hitching; Dex) if needed; otherwise drop Use Rope, Linguistics (Cha; Merged from Forgery, Decipher Script, and Speak Language).
The Heal Skill should be given additional function, allowing players to use it to regain HP... or at the very least convert some lethal damage into non-lethal damage.
All Characters gain a single profession or craft skill as a class skill at level 1. They automatically receive 2 ranks in said skill.


These changes simplify the skill system quite a bit.

Backgrounds: All classes receive a background package at level 1 in addition to their class features, racial features, class features, and their standard feat. A character's background functions similarly to backgrounds in D&D 5E, giving some general information about what the character did before becoming an Adventurer, what walk of life they lived, etc. Backgrounds must be made and approved of by the DM. A typical background package would come with a flavorful description and grant extra perks to a character... such as: adding a few extra class skills to the character and/or granting a few minor background bonuses to a couple skills (comparable to skill racial bonuses), may grant a bonus language or two, a possible bonus feat, etc. All background packages should be roughly equal in power.

For rough examples of background packages, check the Link to my Wheel of Time rework, and look up the backgrounds. Note: Backgrounds probably shouldn't be tied to specific nationalities, but more generic in nature. Something like "Street Rat", "Orphan", "Merchant", or "Scholar" works perfectly.

General Changes:

Classes suitable for player use should be referred to as Heroic Classes.
All heroic classes should grant profeciency with all Simple Weapons.
Heroic Classes should have at least a d6 HD. NPC Classes can have a d4 HD.
All Heroic Classes should NOT have ANY dead levels. A dead level is defined as any level that does not add or improve upon a special class feature (excluding spells known and spell slots as a special feature).
All classes have a level cap at the max level listed for their default table. This means that all base classes cap at level 20, and prestige classes at either 10, 5, or 3 levels. If you wish to continue playing after maxing out a class, you must multiclass, or level-up in classes that haven't reached their cap. This continues beyond level 20 if you so desire.
Ability Increases should be a +1 bonus to two DIFFERENT stats at 4th character level and every 4 levels afterwards.
Characters BAB increases beyond a character level of 20, but they only gain a maximum of 4 attacks due to high BAB.
Racial HD should already be factored into a Monster PC's Level Adjustment. ECL then simply becomes Class Levels + LA. For Monsters with large racial HD and/or Level Adjustment (Where both is +5 or Higher), use either the Racial HD or the LA for calculating ECL, whichever is smaller.


General Math tip: Try not to give flat +1 bonuses; flat bonuses should be at least a +2 and even numbered, unless you are giving a +5 bonus. Bonuses should scale according to something.

Welp guys, thats my contribution, PEACE OUT!

Goaty14
2018-06-26, 12:08 PM
Skill List Consolidated

Where's UMD?


All Characters gain a single profession or craft skill as a class skill at level 1. They automatically receive 2 ranks in said skill.

What does this fix?


Backgrounds: All classes receive a background package at level 1 in addition to their class features, racial features, class features, and their standard feat. A character's background functions similarly to backgrounds in D&D 5E, giving some general information about what the character did before becoming an Adventurer, what walk of life they lived, etc. Backgrounds must be made and approved of by the DM. A typical background package would come with a flavorful description and grant extra perks to a character... such as: adding a few extra class skills to the character and/or granting a few minor background bonuses to a couple skills (comparable to skill racial bonuses), may grant a bonus language or two, a possible bonus feat, etc. All background packages should be roughly equal in power.

Again: How does this fix, or help any bad aspect of 3.5? You just dedicated an entire section to what amounts to a giant nothingburger.


All Heroic Classes should NOT have ANY dead levels. A dead level is defined as any level that does not add or improve upon a special class feature (excluding spells known and spell slots as a special feature).

WotC's Dead Levels Article (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061013a) fulfills this requirement, while not making any meaningful changes (ok; people keep using it to give the FS Know. (Religon) as a class skill, but that should've been a thing from the start). Take the fighter for example: At every level that a fighter doesn't get a feat (7 total dead levels), he can get a +1 on checks for a very specific check (i.e break/bend object, balance on slippery surfaces, etc). Again, this doesn't really change anything. It *could* change things, but it doesn't set a minimum standard.


All classes have a level cap at the max level listed for their default table. This means that all base classes cap at level 20, and prestige classes at either 10, 5, or 3 levels. If you wish to continue playing after maxing out a class, you must multiclass, or level-up in classes that haven't reached their cap. This continues beyond level 20 if you so desire.

Changes nothing important. All it really does is mean you can't boost your paladin's Lay-on-Hands or Smite past 20th, or your monk's Stunning Fist DC. If a new player didn't understand that prestige classing was the end-all-be-all in epic, well, thank you captain obvious. The rule itself is also very limited, since such a player would have to be EPIC before this comes into effect.


Characters BAB increases beyond a character level of 20, but they only gain a maximum of 4 attacks due to high BAB.

Ok? Like I said: Making minor changes to epic won't change much to how 3.5 works, much less fix any problems...


Racial HD should already be factored into a Monster PC's Level Adjustment. ECL then simply becomes Class Levels + LA. For Monsters with large racial HD and/or Level Adjustment (Where both is +5 or Higher), use either the Racial HD or the LA for calculating ECL, whichever is smaller.

I'd use the LA-Reassignment thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?518086-The-LA-assignment-archive&p=21798987) myself. I have a strong feeling that this rule is ripe for abuse, though I can't think of anything right now.

EDIT: Starting the game as a White Ethergaunt (Fiend Folio) means you would, under this rule, have to suffer +5 LA, but cast as a 13th level wizard (which stacks with normal wizard levels). Even presuming that the wizard was fixed to be T3, being 8 levels ahead of what you should be is a little bit broken, right?


General Math tip: Try not to give flat +1 bonuses; flat bonuses should be at least a +2 and even numbered, unless you are giving a +5 bonus. Bonuses should scale according to something.

That's a horrible rule-of-thumb that literally doesn't call out any specifics nor change anything. Circumstance bonuses already were +2/+5!

Durzan
2018-06-26, 07:14 PM
Where's UMD?


All skills not mentioned remain the same. UMD is fine as its own skill (as far as I know).


What does this fix?

Profession is a skill that most people wouldn't invest skill points unless its required for a class skill. Since it is basically useless, why not give a couple ranks in it for free? It gives the player the ability to use game mechanics to hint at what the character was doing before becoming an adventurer. Also helps explain what said character does on the side when not adventuring.

I'm a big fan of using mechanics to reflect the fluff of the game.



Again: How does this fix, or help any bad aspect of 3.5? You just dedicated an entire section to what amounts to a giant nothingburger.

False about it being a nothing burger.

Backgrounds can be used to explain a sneaky or bookworm fighter with mechanical benefits. Want a sneaky fighter, give him a background that makes Stealth a class skill, gives him a background bonus to stealth, or gives him the Stealthy Bonus Feat. Also doubles as a springboard for giving players a starting point for developing a character backstory. Sneaky Fighter could've been a thief as a child, explaining why he got Stealth as an additional class skill.



WotC's Dead Levels Article (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061013a) fulfills this requirement, while not making any meaningful changes (ok; people keep using it to give the FS Know. (Religon) as a class skill, but that should've been a thing from the start). Take the fighter for example: At every level that a fighter doesn't get a feat (7 total dead levels), he can get a +1 on checks for a very specific check (i.e break/bend object, balance on slippery surfaces, etc). Again, this doesn't really change anything. It *could* change things, but it doesn't set a minimum standard.

Your right about setting a minimum standard. Class abilities should be a useful tool in a class arsenal, not just a piece of almost meaningless fluff. You want a minimum standard, look at the Armsman class from my Wheel of Time rework (link in my sig). Its basically a revamp of the fighter. Thats the kind of thing I am talking about. All classes should get something useful at every level, or a significant improvement at each level.


Changes nothing important. All it really does is mean you can't boost your paladin's Lay-on-Hands or Smite past 20th, or your monk's Stunning Fist DC. If a new player didn't understand that prestige classing was the end-all-be-all in epic, well, thank you captain obvious. The rule itself is also very limited, since such a player would have to be EPIC before this comes into effect.

Its a needed step toward restructuring Epic Level play, which frankly shouldn't have its own unique set of rules in the first place.

Hell, I got a friend who doesn't even like to set 20th level as a cap. He wants his groups to go on to level 50 (Hah, as fun as that'd be to do a level 1 to 50 run, good luck doing it quickly. Fat chance he'll actually see that dream come true), heck he planned out the first campaign I ever played and planned it to go to level 50. He never even touched the Epic Level Handbook. He plans out all his characters for 50 levels, no exceptions (usually 2 base classes and a single 10 level prestige class). And I look at him and say, "Dude, you do realize that the game becomes a slog around level 10 or so... right? And it takes us like 5 sessions just to complete one adventure (not even kidding). We ain't gonna last till level 20, much less level 50!"



Ok? Like I said: Making minor changes to epic won't change much to how 3.5 works, much less fix any problems...


This goes hand in hand with the previous point.



I'd use the LA-Reassignment thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?518086-The-LA-assignment-archive&p=21798987) myself. I have a strong feeling that this rule is ripe for abuse, though I can't think of anything right now.

EDIT: Starting the game as a White Ethergaunt (Fiend Folio) means you would, under this rule, have to suffer +5 LA, but cast as a 13th level wizard (which stacks with normal wizard levels). Even presuming that the wizard was fixed to be T3, being 8 levels ahead of what you should be is a little bit broken, right?

Your probably right about that as well. It was a rough rule of thumb that makes LA's a bit less ridiculous on the players. I honestly don't care for LA at all, and just tend to ignore it when I DM. Of course, I compensate for that by having tight control over what races I let my players play as.


That's a horrible rule-of-thumb that literally doesn't call out any specifics nor change anything. Circumstance bonuses already were +2/+5!

...The Halfling Luck Racial Bonus, Masterwork Weapons, and Weapon Focus would like to have a word with you. There are plenty of items, feats, racial traits, and so forth that grant measly +1 bonuses that don't scale. Its disgraceful, and makes my OCD-sense tingle.

noob
2018-06-27, 02:17 AM
So should we add the hypermundanes(a fix to the mundanes) and the spheres of power(a simple casting system with specialist casters that do a few things all day long) systems?

Climowitz
2018-06-27, 02:43 AM
So should we add the hypermundanes(a fix to the mundanes) and the spheres of power(a simple casting system with specialist casters that do a few things all day long) systems?

Could you please leave a link?

noob
2018-06-27, 04:12 AM
Hypermundanes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17189310&postcount=245) (lists also a bunch of other things but I am suggesting among that list only hypermundanes unless you like fun themed dnd 3.5)
Spheres of power (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/variant-magic-rules/spheres-of-power/)

rferries
2018-06-27, 05:52 AM
Re: Durzan's changes - all very good ideas. I'd also suggest that all class skills can be used untrained.

Seconding Goaty14's idea of using the LA-reassignment thread to balance monsters. Ideally, all monsters with an LA would be fully revised so that their character level = their Hit Dice = their CR (e.g. a medusa could be revamped as a ranger-type character of suitably high level to permit the gaze without being unbalanced). This would effectively eliminate having to deal with LA.

Eldan
2018-06-27, 07:19 AM
Do we have to take Spheres of Power? I don't like them much.

Climowitz
2018-06-27, 09:17 AM
Do we have to take Spheres of Power? I don't like them much.

No, this is a collection of recommendated homebrew changes and creations, you could simply ignore a change if you don't like it.