View Full Version : Contest Base Class Contest XXXXIII Voting Thread

2018-06-29, 04:46 AM
Welcome to the voting thread for Base Class Challenge XXXXIII, Hey, I Know That Guy! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?558705-Base-Class-Contest-XXXXIII-Hey-I-Know-That-Guy!) Voting will consist of each voter giving a first, second, and third place vote for three separate base classes. Anyone can vote, and in fact, entrants must vote to qualify for victory.

A first place vote is worth three points, a second place vote is worth two points, and a third place vote is worth one point. You may not vote for your own class.

You are encouraged to include reason with your votes, though this is not absolutely required.

The class that ends up with the most points wins the challenge contest. Voting starts now and will continue until 20:00 (GMT) on July 13th.

Base Class
Total Points

The Wanderer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23069519&postcount=3) (Class Features (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23137898&postcount=10))

The Humble Hero (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23070341&postcount=4)

The Professional (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23072265&postcount=5) (Professions (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23072278&postcount=6))
Lanth Sor

The Rescuer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23072942&postcount=8) (Variants (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23081081&postcount=9))

Knower of Things (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23138100&postcount=11)

May your swords stay sharp, may the force be with you and may the odds be ever in your favour,

To the vote!

2018-06-29, 06:11 AM
1: The Wanderer
An amazing piece of homebrew that shows an incredible amount of effort, however being able to become anything doesn't leave the class with much of its own identity.

2: The Professional
Conceptually great, and probably has the best use of theme, but lacks fluff details and really needed to have more than six professions available.

3: The Humble Hero
The biggest gripe I have here is that the class is far too passive; a class needs to give the player options for things to do each round.

2018-06-29, 06:54 AM

1. The Professional.
A well rounded and build-versatile class that manages to stay in focus and offers a simple set of mechanics.

2. The Rescuer.
Seems quite competent at doing what it was meant to do, and elegantly designed.

The Wanderer requires more time and effort than I can spare ATM.
The Humble Hero has too many dead levels.
Knower of Things seems too narrow in focus to be contributive enough in an adventuring party. Could be a nice 5th wheel though.

Lanth Sor
2018-07-03, 11:09 AM
0. Professional- What can I say but genius design 100/10. :D
1. Wanderer- Finally a good alternative to playing an evolutionist. Great way of handling "classless"
2. Rescuer- Good design I love when "useless" skills become useful.
3. Knower of Things- I love this class, but it seems like it may be difficult to sell. I love playing Int based classes that don't spellcast and the whole "I've seen some S***" vibe is the best.

Humble Hero- I want to vote for this, but dead levels and just plain scary potential prevents me.

Best Use of Theme: Rescuer. We asked for everyday hero and being a hero is this classes everyday. The only difference is, the theme is their 9-5.
Most Likely to See Play: Wanderer. With its own tread this could easily work as effectively as the evolutionist.
Most Original: Humble Hero. While the most common fantasy book/movie protagonist this class really carries the tone of the everyman.

2018-07-13, 05:44 AM
1st - Rescuer. I dig the design on this. It has a cohesive theme that holds throughout the class, and it seems to make for a good skillmonkey. I might add a Knowledge skill or two to the class skills list, but it's certainly not necessary. Nature comes to mind, as does religion for those rescuers knowledgeable in natural remedies they can gather or dedicated to a religious cause, respectively.

I like focused skill. It feels appropriate for a skill monkey, and I like that it's an insight bonus equal to Wis modifier rather than just replacing the ability modifier with Wisdom.

Medical training is cool and very fitting. I have a few questions and comments, though. The 6th level ability grants temporary hp for 1 hour, so it seems like less of a pick-me-up in a fight than a preparation move before a fight (until 10th level, when you can make it a swift action). The fluff-mechanics disparity is really my only comment on that one, but it's not a huge deal. It seems okay, though DC 25 is pretty steep at level 6. At that level, you have 9 ranks + 3 (Wis) + 3 (1/2 class levels) + 2 (healer's kit) = +14, so you only succeed 50% of the time, which seems harsh when it's only giving you 12 temporary hp per day per creature at that level and you only get one chance. Even throwing in a healing belt for another +2 gives only a 60% chance of success on a reasonable setup. I see a few possible solutions for this: lower the DC; raise the amount of temporary hp you grant on a successful check; allow multiple checks per day (maybe scale it up with level). Alternatively, you could do a combination--allow for multiple checks per day at rapidly increasing DC, or lower the initial DC but allow higher-level characters to make higher-DC checks for more temporary hp, or lower the initial DC and increase temporary hp scaling. Lowering the DC solves the issue of it being difficult at lower levels, but the scaling is a tad low for higher levels while the check remains trivial at those levels as well. Increasing the temporary hp amount doesn't help lower-level rescuers use their class feature and might be a bit strong at level 6 if they succeed, depending on the amount by which you increase it. Allowing multiple checks per day is kind of like increasing the amount of temporary hp gained but spread out, so it's not wasted if the creature doesn't take all of the damage, but it also doesn't prevent inordinate amounts of damage at lower levels.

The 10th-level ability is great. Actions are precious. I wonder how often you'll be able to make a Heal check without moving, though. The swift action upgrade is the real prize once you can hit it, though it'll likely be a while before it's really consistent (13 ranks + 5 (4 naturally, +1 item Wis) + 5 (1/2 class levels) + 2 (healer's kit) + 2 (Healing Belt) = +27, or a 65% chance at 10th level to succeed on First Aid as a swift action). I guess if you fail a check you can just try again immediately after as a move action if you can tell you failed. Other Heal checks aren't usually made in combat, so the swift action is probably only really useful for first aid...which is kind of sad, actually. This leads into my comments on the higher-level abilities.

The 14th-level ability is a natural progression, though it comes in pretty late. By this point, a party is probably dead if it doesn't have the ability to avoid or remove at least some of these conditions. Still, it's a nice backup and the party can shift gears at 14th to allow the rescuer to remove the conditions rather than spending resources on doing it themselves (so they can perform their roles rather than backpedaling). Being unable to reduce the time it takes to use this feature kind of hurts, though, and without that swift action reduction a DC 20 is pathetically easy at this level (17 ranks + 7 (4 naturally, +3 item Wis) + 7 (1/2 class levels) + 2 (healer's kit) + 2 (Healing Belt) = +35). Even a DC 35 succeeds automatically. I have no problem with that (they've invested in Heal, c'mon), but if you're not willing to allow swift action removal of conditions, how about making the move action version take -20 for this at least (and the swift action -40 or something)? For the record, I don't think having this feature available as a swift action is overpowered at 14th level, but that might just be me.

The 18th-level ability is great. At 18th level, you'd conservatively expect 21 ranks + 8 (5 naturally, +3 item Wis) + 9 (1/2 class levels) + 2 (healer's kit) + 2 (Healing Belt) = +42. Most characters taking the class this far will easily hit the check no problem if they can make it the first round, and will only fail on a 1 or 2 in the second round. Again, this is probably fine, since it's 18th level and it requires a full-round action. Speaking of, I might allow this to be reduced to a standard action for a big penalty to Heal to allow characters with higher bonuses to use them without just leaving their comrades dead for a few rounds. As a secondary comment, you may want to define what you mean by "relatively whole." Now for questions: Do 1st-level characters suffer Constitution loss? Do spellcasters have a chance to lose spells for the day? Can you bring back an unwilling soul? Do ability scores reduced to 0 stay at 0 if they're not Constitution (which I assume goes up to 1 if it being reduced to 0 was the cause of death)?

AC bonus is cool, though "unencumbered" isn't really a game term. Should probably change that to "carrying no more than a light load" (which is what I assume you mean considering at the end you mention medium and heavy loads).

Status is cool and fitting. The condition/spell sense allows them to do their job better, so that's cool, and the ability to keep tabs on the party at all times is nice for a potential scout.

Does rush to the rescue count against the rescuer's actions in their next turn or is it just a free move action? Is it an immediate action? Good feature. If it doesn't count against your move action on your next turn it lets you hit that move action use from your 10th-level medical training ability more often, too. It's unfortunate that it requires your ally dropping below 0 hp or becoming helpless, but it's still (presumably) free actions, so it can only do so much. I suppose you could make it a 1/encounter ability that functions the same but without the limit on their ally's condition. Either way, nice to have.

The stunning strike line seems good, and nice for a non-killer. Improved stunning strike is especially great for that immunity bypass.

Adrenaline rush is amazing, befitting a capstone ability. I dig it.

2nd - Wanderer. First of all--sorry, I didn't look at every value for every ability. Looking at most of them, I agree with the majority just eyeballing, so I'll just guess that the rest are probably fine.

Secondly, this is an undertaking fitting of your style of taking far too much and making it somehow digestible for practically anyone willing to read a decent amount. You did well again, in my opinion.

I honestly don't have much to say except that I think the build points are really close to a sweet spot for mid-power, at least in the early game. I thought skill points costing 1 build point each would hurt quite a bit but I tried building something at 3rd level and it turned out pretty well, actually. I didn't play with the casting point costs or any higher-level builds, though. Still, it looks good. I really like what you've done here, and I could see myself playing a wanderer in the future, easily.

Do you have plans on expanding the wanderer's class feature list, perhaps to include any of your homebrew?

EDIT: When I have time, I'll try to test out different setups to see how they fare compared to my rather simple 3rd-level concept. Spellcasters, gishes, copying other classes except for one or two features cherry-picked from others, etc. I wouldn't expect it before voting is over, but I can probably do it over the weekend since I almost always have access to a notebook even when busy.

3rd - Knower of things. I have mixed feelings on the drinking mechanic, but it is interesting, at least.

I like Know-How quite a bit, though it's not great on a knower of things since their skill list is huge. Can be okay, though, and it helps if you want a specific kind of knower that wants stealthy skills or something (although factotum 3 might be better). I Know a Guy is really cool, though I don't like that it drains XP from party members. Unless they're really saving your bacon I'd feel bad for sapping XP from everyone. That it also takes wealth from your own stash to keep the old friend relevant in late game is kind of sad, too. Blatant Cheating is great; leaving prerequisite feats out of the list of things it bypasses was smart. Funnily enough, it lets them take multiclassing feats, if by "class" you also mean class features. Won't do any good, but it's cute. Maybe someone can find shenanigans. Drunken Gibberish is probably garbage in most builds, but hey, if you can find a way to make counterspelling better than taking normal actions, it's there for you. I Know Just the Thing is cool, but really only for cheap stuff. That 10x cost is pretty harsh. Even a little thing like a fan feather token is 2,000 gp. Oof. Does Armchair General require line of sight or effect to the target or is the only limitation your ally's hearing/understanding? I Know I Have Another One Around Here Somewhere is excellent and basically a must-buy if you got I Know Just the Thing. Always Slightly Buzzed is also great. Pretty much a must-have.

The avatars are nice to have. I especially like the Feline of Enterprise--very cool. The Wolf of Bravery's scaling seems a bit off to me, though. Comparing it to inspire courage, it seems to fall behind after level 6 or 7, if not before then because of items, prestige classes, feats, and all of the other support materials bards have access to while the knower of things is stuck with +2 attack/damage for one alcohol charge. Good at low levels, considerably weaker when you're spending a very large proportion of your kind-of-daily resource to get +3/+3 or +4/+4 to attack/damage with a standard action for an encounter. The Wolf of Madness has a similar issue with scaling, but at least it doesn't cost an action to use it, so you can conceivably use it to finish off an encounter if you've got not much else to do. The others seem fine to me.

Iron Liver gives you one or two charges for free per day, most likely. Necessary at this point, I think. I like the idea of managing alcohol charges to try to get the most out of this ability rather than just dumping your Intelligence score for all of the charges at once. Adamantine Liver is cool. Four charges a day probably for free. Again, probably necessary to stay competitive. Beloved of the Avatars is good, but 15th level feels pretty late for a 1/day use of any of the avatars, even fully enhanced. Maybe make it 3/day?

Honestly, I'd be worried about the power of the class if they didn't have 10+Int skill points per level with a stellar class skills list. As is, I think they're serviceable, though their combat abilities are kind of lacking outside of I Know a Guy (which has its own problems I briefly talked about above), and their alcohol charge system is pretty limited.

2018-07-13, 06:18 AM
Ooops I forgot all about this haha. I'll edit in my votes later today.

EDIT: Or the day after as it turns out, haha. Thanks for the extension, Jormengand!

Aw, I miss the extra categories ("Most original", "best use of theme", etc). Though I suppose there were too few entries this time to have a proper spread.

1st Place - The Rescuer
Neatly encapsulates the contest flavour while still having its own identity and function. I think this is something a lot of us struggle with, so kudos! I must say I never imagined a rogue could be repurposed as a healer haha.

2nd Place - The Wanderer
Obvious points for the effort involved! You must have trawled every 3.5 book and article ever written haha. My one quibble is that it's not an "everyday hero" so much as "any possible hero, given the correct build"... in a sense it perhaps feels more like a subsystem than a class? Nevertheless still very cool!

3rd Place - Knower of Things
I quite like the flavour, especially re: drinking, but the spirits didn't quite feel like an "everyday" ability (though I realise now they must be GoT House references).

Special Mention - The Professional
I agree with Alabenson, this is the closest to the contest theme and has some great mechanics, but doesn't quite feel finished.

Good work, everyone!

2018-07-13, 04:08 PM
Gonna give this one more day - as in 24 hours after the listed time - because I've already missed it, and Rferries has mentioned that he's gonna get some votes in, and dear god I'm too tired for this. More once I've slept!

2018-07-17, 04:20 PM
Right, sorry for my temporary non-presence. My votes are professional, humble hero and knower of things. No you don't get reasons, sorry, too tired, also I've already critiqued them IIRC so there's that.

This puts me and Alabenson as joint winners, followed by Lanth Sor. GG all, sorry for the rambling tone, I swear I will be more awake when I make the next one.