Help with Balancing a Character's Quirks

[The Extinguisher]

I need some help. I have a character with an interesting role-playing quirk to him, and I'm wondering how to balance out some in-game bonuses and drawbacks. The quirk is that he is an atheist, refusing to believe in any god or extra-planar creature.

Now, one of the extras I've considered is a bonus to Will Saves involving outsiders and outsider-based illusions. As a draw back, I was thinking something to with our parties cleric's spells. Unfortunatly, I have no idea what numbers would be good.

So any help with this? Any other suggestions?

[Crow]

I need some help. I have a character with an interesting role-playing quirk to him, and I'm wondering how to balance out some in-game bonuses and drawbacks. The quirk is that he is an atheist, refusing to believe in any god or extra-planar creature.

Now, one of the extras I've considered is a bonus to Will Saves involving outsiders and outsider-based illusions. As a draw back, I was thinking something to with our parties cleric's spells. Unfortunatly, I have no idea what numbers would be good.

So any help with this? Any other suggestions?

I don't think you need any in game bonus or drawback to play this.

The thing is, in D&D, all those things are real whether your character believes it or not.

[Solo]

Its pretty hard to disbelieve in the Gods when a Plane Shift spell can teleport you Tamiat's home plane....

[The Extinguisher]

I don't need to, but I think it would be handy and neat. I can play it, but it's always good to have some in-game backup.

Also, I understand it'll be hard, but it'll also be fun. That's why I'm doing it.

[Lord Tataraus]

I need some help. I have a character with an interesting role-playing quirk to him, and I'm wondering how to balance out some in-game bonuses and drawbacks. The quirk is that he is an atheist, refusing to believe in any god or extra-planar creature.

Now, one of the extras I've considered is a bonus to Will Saves involving outsiders and outsider-based illusions. As a draw back, I was thinking something to with our parties cleric's spells. Unfortunatly, I have no idea what numbers would be good.

So any help with this? Any other suggestions?

How often do gods and outsiders use illusions?
And why would their illusions not effect you as much when its the creature manifesting them that you don't believe in? Would you assume that any outsiders you come across are illusions as well and you would carelessly ignore it? If you do not believe in the gods, then the cleric's spells should have no effect on you after a few tries to win you over through "miracles".
Is it possible to have an atheist in a world where gods and mortals have so much interaction? As a DM I would not allow a character to be atheist without being insane (or at least viewed that way) it just makes no sense at all.

[The Extinguisher]

I mean, illusions of outsiders. Such as Elan's lion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0478.html)
He would assume that all outsiders are powerful illusions that work off of the belief of others. He wouldn't carelessly ignore them, just not be as affected by them.
For one, he's a paladin with access to divine spells, as well clerics don't need to worship gods for spells, so he mearly assumes that the cleric's spells are not from a god, but from the same place as his magic, whereever that be. So it should effect him, but not as much. Like, there should be a chance of failure.
It's possible. Like I said, it's just hard and fun. In the real world, there are lots of people with alternative views on scientific facts. Why not in D&D with gods.

[de-trick]

I could see if you just never learned about religion or thought you were abandoned in your time of need by your former god

We have a gnome who never knew that selune and shar are gods, and a chosen f selune and shar were trying to convert him, he thought that 2 chicks wanted him and his 18 chr

[KillianHawkeye]

The thing is, in D&D, all those things are real whether your character believes it or not.

I think what he means by this is that not believing in the Gods is not a valid reason why you would recieve a lessened effect from divine magic. Whatever your character's beliefs, the magic is still 100% real.

Also, does the character believe in other (non-extraplanar) supernatural creatures (i.e. dragons, vampires, unicorns, etc.)? If they recognize the existence of these creatures, they would probably not also doubt the existence of outsiders and elementals. Of course, you can still have doubts that these creatures are as powerful as they say they are, or that they are responsible for the divine magic or the creation of the world. (Hint: If you've ever watched Stargate SG-1, they frequently deal with powerful creatures who claim to be gods but who are really not.)

[Raolin_Fenix]

Um, drawback: if you don't have a patron deity (let alone if you don't believe in the gods at all), you're going to have rough times petitioning a temple for healing. Or finding someone willing to resurrect you.

[Nerd-o-rama]

I cannot find the quote exactly, but I'm fairly sure it was from Feet of Clay, stated by Dorfl, philosophical and atheistic golem.

After denying the existence of the Discworld's gods to a group of their priests, Dorfl is struck by lightning. Repeatedly.

Dorfl, scorched but largely unharmed (being made of ceramics), comments that mere empirical evidence is not proof of something's existence. If the Gods could prove to him logically that they existed, he'd believe.

Just a perspective to keep in mind when playing an atheist in a world of physical gods.

[Anxe]

You're character refuses to believe in Gods and Outsiders in a world where they pop up every other combat? That's like a person in the modern day world not believing in the internet. I wouldn't give you a bonus if I was DM.

[Solo]

You're character refuses to believe in Gods and Outsiders in a world where they pop up every other combat? That's like a person in the modern day world not believing in the internet.
"The internet... is a series of tubes!"

[AKA_Bait]

I'm not sure you need any ingame mechanics for this.

Might a make a suggestion though... so as not to have your character decide 'well that Balor isn't real' and discover they are the hard way. You could be an atheist that recognizes the gods are real but doesn't think that they are 'gods' in the sense of being worthy of worship. That way the halfdemon dire tiger that shows up doesn't simply rip your face off, but you can still go around saying 'pah, there are no gods. Just some really powerful outsiders is all.'

[Arakune]

Puff, the most quick way to make him shut up is to kill him and his soul to some deity home plane and make the deity give him some kind of 'incentive' to his faith. How he are disbelieving THAT!?

[slexlollar89]

I don't mean to be a an ass, but a paladin HAS to beleive in a god... it's in the description of the class.

On a lighter note, I like this idea, maybe he will eventully understand that gods have been fortifyinh/aiding him, and he totaly convert.

give him this: +1 atk and dmg against outsiders and creatures that cast divine magic. MAYBE some SR if you really want the flavor. Drwbacks: -5 on bluff, dipl, sense motive, gather info etc. versus the above cretures. -2 saves against all divine magic, subject to effects with any alignment descriptor (ex: even though is good, he could be smote or hit with a good evocation).

This is just an idea.

[Swooper]

You're character refuses to believe in Gods and Outsiders in a world where they pop up every other combat? That's like a person in the modern day world not believing in the internet. I wouldn't give you a bonus if I was DM.
More like, a person in the real world who refuses to believe that the Earth is more than ~6000 years old, and evolution never happened.

And I hear those certainly exist, however hard to believe. :smallconfused:

[Shhalahr Windrider]

I don't mean to be a an ass, but a paladin HAS to beleive in a god... it's in the description of the class.
What? You mean the part that says "A paladin need not devote himself to a single deity—devotion to righteousness is enough"? (emphasis mine; PHB, pg. 43)

The paragraph goes on further with more language differentiating paladins devoted to deities from paladins not devoted to deities.


You're character refuses to believe in Gods and Outsiders in a world where they pop up every other combat?
Certainly not the case in any campaign I've ever played in.

Anyway, as others have menitoned, there's a difference in believing a particular being exists and in believing that the being is what it says it is. So what if a Heironeous says, "You don't believe in me, eh? Then I shall smite you!" The atheist can reply, "Oh, I believe you exist and that you are a very powerful being. But I've seen plenty of wizards zap people with lightning. You're just a powerful wizard." This sort of belief is much the same as the Athar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athar) of Planescape.

Why should this sort of atheist any bonuses or drawbacks? Well, gods and divine magic get their power through belief. It's not that hard to imagine an individual with strong enough disbelief could interfere with that power. Divine powers require strong faith, not just recognition that it exists.

I'd hesitate to apply this to outsiders as a whole, but outsiders are linked to broad philosophies, so belief could theoretically influence them.

(Now, I don't quite grasp the Outsider == Illusion thing.)

[Overlard]

There's a radio show here called Old Harry's Game. It's set in Hell, with Satan as the main character. There used to be a character called the Professor, who having not believed in a god, was sent to hell despite being a kind, righteous man. For the first few episodes, he refused to believe he was in Hell, but instead that he was in a coma after a car crash, and all the things he saw/heard/felt were his brain keeping itself occupied.

Self-delusion is a powerful tool, and one that humans have a great handle on.

[DeathQuaker]

More like, a person in the real world who refuses to believe that the Earth is more than ~6000 years old, and evolution never happened.

Actually, no. The first person's analogy, while humorous, was slightly more accurate.

And while yes, I believe in evolution, our evolutionary and big bang theories are just that. We have some proof of them, but there's still a lot of mystery to how and why things happened the way they did.

In a typical D&D universe, gods and outsiders aren't a mystery. There is hard, concrete proof that they exist and in great abundance. There are no "gaps" or "room for interpretation." Tyr can appear on earth, walk around, interact with people, and do stuff only a god can. His burning holy aura leaves the impression seared into the very soul of the person viewing him that he is, indeed, real.

A succubus can show up, transform, and drain the life essence out of you. It's quite obvious when you feel her cold lips pressed against your flesh that this is what is happening. Her demonic wings, claws, and fangs are apparent.

And a Conjuror and an Illusionist can easily demonstrate that their arts belong to two different Schools.

BUT.... this is in a typical D&D universe. The OP hasn't really revealed what setting his game is in. If the GM things it makes sense for his world, it's probably okay. Maybe the gods don't appear in Avatar form very often. I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that the OP's concept makes no sense...

But I would advise the OP to do think about it carefully, and what he really hopes to get out of the concept. If the game is in a typical D&D world, you need to think about his unusual background where he would have a strong enough ethos to gain divine power without serving a deity. Who would teach him such a thing?

And in typical D&D universes, the concept of the "unfaithful" generally is someone who is not an atheist, and definitely knows Powers and Outsiders are real, but someone who feels god worship is useless. Perhaps the gods are too whimsical, or only appear during their convenience... perhaps he suffered a great loss and expected the gods to help, and they didn't. Such a person might develop a strong will/belief in Self-Made Destiny and some such, being able to draw upon their beliefs divinely. If the OP's game is in a typical D&D universe, such a concept might suit the OP's character idea better than the "Atheism" concept.

And yes, at any rate, the character idea is interesting, but warrants no mechanical adjustment to the PC's stats. No benefit or harm save what the player wants to roleplay.

[Crow]

Actually, no. The first person's analogy, while humorous, was slightly more accurate.

And while yes, I believe in evolution, our evolutionary and big bang theories are just that. We have some proof of them, but there's still a lot of mystery to how and why things happened the way they did.

In a typical D&D universe, gods and outsiders aren't a mystery. There is hard, concrete proof that they exist and in great abundance. There are no "gaps" or "room for interpretation." Tyr can appear on earth, walk around, interact with people, and do stuff only a god can. His burning holy aura leaves the impression seared into the very soul of the person viewing him that he is, indeed, real.

A succubus can show up, transform, and drain the life essence out of you. It's quite obvious when you feel her cold lips pressed against your flesh that this is what is happening. Her demonic wings, claws, and fangs are apparent.

And a Conjuror and an Illusionist can easily demonstrate that their arts belong to two different Schools.

BUT.... this is in a typical D&D universe. The OP hasn't really revealed what setting his game is in. If the GM things it makes sense for his world, it's probably okay. Maybe the gods don't appear in Avatar form very often. I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that the OP's concept makes no sense...

But I would advise the OP to do think about it carefully, and what he really hopes to get out of the concept. If the game is in a typical D&D world, you need to think about his unusual background where he would have a strong enough ethos to gain divine power without serving a deity. Who would teach him such a thing?

And in typical D&D universes, the concept of the "unfaithful" generally is someone who is not an atheist, and definitely knows Powers and Outsiders are real, but someone who feels god worship is useless. Perhaps the gods are too whimsical, or only appear during their convenience... perhaps he suffered a great loss and expected the gods to help, and they didn't. Such a person might develop a strong will/belief in Self-Made Destiny and some such, being able to draw upon their beliefs divinely. If the OP's game is in a typical D&D universe, such a concept might suit the OP's character idea better than the "Atheism" concept.

And yes, at any rate, the character idea is interesting, but warrants no mechanical adjustment to the PC's stats. No benefit or harm save what the player wants to roleplay.

Maybe, though the Paladin believes he is a "Paladin of Tyr", Tyr doesn't actually give him any power at all due to his not believing in him. However he still has power because some trickster god thought it would be amusing...

[AKA_Bait]

Maybe, though the Paladin believes he is a "Paladin of Tyr", Tyr doesn't actually give him any power at all due to his not believing in him. However he still has power because some trickster god thought it would be amusing...

I'm confused... how can someone believe they are a Paladin of Tyr but not that Tyr exists?

I could sort of see being a 'Paladin of Justice/Honor' without any god association (the same way a cleric can lack a diety) and still having powers but I'm having trouble with thinking they are a paladin of a god and think that god isn't real...

[Wolf_Shade]

I mean, illusions of outsiders. Such as Elan's lion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0478.html)
He would assume that all outsiders are powerful illusions that work off of the belief of others. He wouldn't carelessly ignore them, just not be as affected by them.
For one, he's a paladin with access to divine spells, as well clerics don't need to worship gods for spells, so he mearly assumes that the cleric's spells are not from a god, but from the same place as his magic, whereever that be. So it should effect him, but not as much. Like, there should be a chance of failure.
It's possible. Like I said, it's just hard and fun. In the real world, there are lots of people with alternative views on scientific facts. Why not in D&D with gods.
I'd say you get a bonus for disbelieving illusions containing outsiders.
However, I'd think the opposite of what you desire would be the case in terms of actual outsider effectiveness. The abilities of the outsider would be more effective (at least as far as anything with a save is concerned). You don't believe it exists, therefore you don't believe it can affect you, therefore you don't actively or even subconciously attempt to resist whatever it might be attempting. You're saves against deific and outsider activities would be reduced (or the DC of the save would be increased for you). That's my 2c.

[Assasinater]

Anyway, as others have menitoned, there's a difference in believing a particular being exists and in believing that the being is what it says it is. So what if a Heironeous says, "You don't believe in me, eh? Then I shall smite you!" The atheist can reply, "Oh, I believe you exist and that you are a very powerful being. But I've seen plenty of wizards zap people with lightning. You're just a powerful wizard." This sort of belief is much the same as the Athar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athar) of Planescape.

For the way of thinking, this makes the most sense. However, simply put, belief has extraordinary power only in Planescape, and that is because it takes place in Sigil and the Outer Planes, mostly.

In Prime Material Plane, atheism would only matter in roleplaying, which has still enough importance and effect on gameplay. The things that happen because he's atheist, however, are nothing supernatural.

[Kantolin]

I would like to first agree with everyone else here. Disbelieving the ground is not going to make it stop effecting you, disbelieving in dieties, particularly in standard D&D, is not going to make them stop effecting you. Whether or not you believe that that smite is going to smite you, it will do so.

However... this is simply the typical and logical answer. It can be fun to have someone whos disbelief is enough to stop this.

So, if you'd really like to go with this, though... be sure to talk with your DM. Then anyway, my suggestion would be to give the character Spell Resistance of something + his level vs divine spells, that cannot be turned off or voluntarily lowered.

That way, it'd protect him from the unholy blight used by the evil cleric, but also restrict him from the healing spells of his party members. The added difficulty in healing would about counteract the boosts.

If you want it to also influence being smitten or something, go with a hit dice as caster level check and do it the same way, then also have it involve lay on hands and the like.

[Nerd-o-rama]

What? You mean the part that says "A paladin need not devote himself to a single deity—devotion to righteousness is enough"? (emphasis mine; PHB, pg. 43)

The paragraph goes on further with more language differentiating paladins devoted to deities from paladins not devoted to deities.
Actually, in the Forgotten Realms, Paladins explicitly do have to worship a deity or pantheon of some sort. It's part of the setting.

With my current book selection, however, I'm failing to find a page citation. Should be in the PGtF under Classes.

Also, I just realized something: my Paladin in a Planescape game is sort of an Athar. Being an import from Eberron (never mind that Eberron doesn't exist in the Great Wheel Cosmology, it's a humor game), he worships the Sovereign Host, which he believes to be higher powers than the corporeal Powers of the Planescape setting. He acknowledges that, say, Hextor can obliterate him with a thought, but does that make him truly a god? No, it just makes him a superpowerful Outsider. The only difference between him and an Athar, really, is that he believes in some divine power higher than the ones present on the Planes.

One of these days, I'm going to get him in a religious debate with a deity. And then he's probably going to die. But if you've got to go, it might as well be trying to inductively prove to a god that he's not a supreme being...

[Indon]

For the way of thinking, this makes the most sense. However, simply put, belief has extraordinary power only in Planescape, and that is because it takes place in Sigil and the Outer Planes, mostly.

In Prime Material Plane, atheism would only matter in roleplaying, which has still enough importance and effect on gameplay. The things that happen because he's atheist, however, are nothing supernatural.

Deities and Demigods, a 3.5 D&D book printed by Wizards, makes a number of suggestions on how to become a God, how the god-system works, in other words.

"Accumulate worship" is one of those suggestions. So, yes, you can optionally introduce belief=divine power into any campaign.

Add furthermore that a Cleric, by RAW, doesn't need a deity and can worship an ideal (which, as of 3'rd ed, can actually grant high-level spells), well, that just makes the man behind the curtain a bit more apparent.

[Dragonmuncher]

Well, I'm with the group that says that there doesn't have to be a mechanical aspect to this- A cleric's powers stem from HIS beliefs, not the target's.

It's a very interesting idea- athiests in Terry Pratchett's Discworld series suffer a similar problem, and tend to wear rubber boots.



However, if you you still want one... hmmm.

Well, if you want to ignore the general way belief and divine power work in D&D, that the target's belief doesn't matter, then you could make it like something that "All divine spells cast on the person affects him as if its CL was one level lower."

Or you could just go with the Suspicious trait-


Suspicious

You are naturally suspicious of everyone and everything. While this trait makes you hard to fool, it makes others slightly less likely to agree with you or find you threatening.
Benefit

You gain a +1 bonus on Sense Motive checks.
Drawback

You take a -1 penalty on Diplomacy checks and intimidate checks.
Roleplaying Ideas

This trait might express itself as comic levels of paranoia, or it might make the character quietly cautious about others.


I'd recommend against anything too beneficial or damaging- it's a roleplaying choice, and players shouldn't feel punished because they want to play something interesting, and they shouldn't feel the temptation to munchkin by building an exotic backstory that gives them all sorts of neat stuff..

[AKA_Bait]

Deities and Demigods, a 3.5 D&D book printed by Wizards, makes a number of suggestions on how to become a God, how the god-system works, in other words.

"Accumulate worship" is one of those suggestions. So, yes, you can optionally introduce belief=divine power into any campaign.

Add furthermore that a Cleric, by RAW, doesn't need a deity and can worship an ideal (which, as of 3'rd ed, can actually grant high-level spells), well, that just makes the man behind the curtain a bit more apparent.

True, but I always understood the 'accumulate worship' thing in deities and demigods to be 'x worship gets you y power' not that 'worship from x being gives you y power applicable that being only' Given the amount of worship a being needs to become a god, even if you counted active disbelief as some sort of negative worship, the amount of that required to make any mechanical diffrence ought to be way beyond that of any one creature.

[Indon]

True, but I always understood the 'accumulate worship' thing in deities and demigods to be 'x worship gets you y power' not that 'worship from x being gives you y power applicable that being only' Given the amount of worship a being needs to become a god, even if you counted active disbelief as some sort of negative worship, the amount of that required to make any mechanical diffrence ought to be way beyond that of any one creature.

But one person's active belief in an ideal can generate as much magical power as a deities' granted blessings.

Edit: It would be interesting to have a guy who didn't believe the gods were real, and wanted to prove it by ascending to godhood purely from worship...

[Shhalahr Windrider]

For the way of thinking, this makes the most sense. However, simply put, belief has extraordinary power only in Planescape, and that is because it takes place in Sigil and the Outer Planes, mostly.
Tell that Vecna. Sometime after he was killed by his former leiutenant in the same battle that cost him his hand and eye, a number of power hungry wizards began to worship his spirit. It was this worship that granted him godhood.

The idea that worship and belief is what gives gods their powers is at least strongly hinted at in every setting. And remember, Planescape was meant to be the default cosmology and explanation for the multiverse. The only reason belief was more powerful on the planes is because it's closer to where that belief is converted into reality.


But one person's active belief in an ideal can generate as much magical power as a deities' granted blessings.
Indeed it can.

Of course, with most ideals, it is likely their are a number of folks that believe in it, even if they don't draw power from it the way a cleric of a philosophy does. So perhaps clerics of a philosophy are really tapping into a collective philosophy and isn't really just generating the power by him or herself.

Could be one way or the other as far as the rules are concerned.


Edit: It would be interesting to have a guy who didn't believe the gods were real, and wanted to prove it by ascending to godhood purely from worship...
Love that idea. Sort of a combination Athar/Believer of the Source in Planescape terms.


Actually, in the Forgotten Realms, Paladins explicitly do have to worship a deity or pantheon of some sort. It's part of the setting.
But that's a specific case exception. As far as I can tell, we're talking mostly in setting-neutral terms. (Yeah, I did bring up Planescape, but that was just to show how a particular philosphy has been applied in-game before.)


One of these days, I'm going to get him in a religious debate with a deity. And then he's probably going to die. But if you've got to go, it might as well be trying to inductively prove to a god that he's not a supreme being...
Can think of few things more worthy for a beloved D&D character. :smallbiggrin:

[The Extinguisher]

Well, for one, it is a typical D&D world. The character comes from a small village that never had a connection with any gods. There were never any clerics or divine casters that could commincate with them, and the village was left unanswered. For whatever reason, the gods couldn't reach them. So for the longest time, generations in the village, it grew from "oh, the gods cannot reach us" to "the gods have abandoned us" to "oh, there simply are no gods" and since it was isolated, no one ever came or left, and they simply never learned.
However, the paladin in question left the village (for details I am still working out) and became a paladin, based on the reasons for leaving.


So, if you'd really like to go with this, though... be sure to talk with your DM. Then anyway, my suggestion would be to give the character Spell Resistance of something + his level vs divine spells, that cannot be turned off or voluntarily lowered.

That way, it'd protect him from the unholy blight used by the evil cleric, but also restrict him from the healing spells of his party members. The added difficulty in healing would about counteract the boosts.

I really like this idea, and I'll think I'll go with it. I know it's possible and I don't need in-game bonus and drawbacks, but I like having something tangible to work with to help with Roleplaying.


I'd say you get a bonus for disbelieving illusions containing outsiders.
However, I'd think the opposite of what you desire would be the case in terms of actual outsider effectiveness. The abilities of the outsider would be more effective (at least as far as anything with a save is concerned). You don't believe it exists, therefore you don't believe it can affect you, therefore you don't actively or even subconciously attempt to resist whatever it might be attempting. You're saves against deific and outsider activities would be reduced (or the DC of the save would be increased for you). That's my 2c.

I admit, the outsider thing is a bit out there, even for the character basis. So I might not even go with it at all. But if I do, I'll work from this, which makes more sense.

Thanks for the help people.
Also: I'd equate it more to someone form modern times believing the world was flat.

[Arakune]

Personally I don't like the belief=divinity, but rater belief=more power.
And I think there are some entities that are so astronomically powerful that no matter of how much you disbelief the being existence that entity will become 'weaker' (those 'elder ones' could have the lines of the power that created the multiverse, perhaps?).

Also, the only drawback should be that divine benefit power doesn't affect this guy, and he get some bonus to disbelief illusions that involves outsiders.