New fighter subclass

[Bannan_mantis]

I am making a subclass for fighter and wanted to base it off using skill and timing over strength and speed. I wanted for them to be more wiser than faster and be similar to a older and more experienced warrior. Please be as critical as possible as I want this to be good and not too op or not powerful enough and this is also the first time I have made a home-brew subclass.

Subclass: Grand Master

Skillful Strikes
You have learned many techniques and skills and have learned how to use timing and precision over power and speed

Starting at 3rd level, you can use your wisdom modifier instead of your strength or dexterity modifier when using a martial weapon

Concentrated
You do not let distractions disturb your focus

Starting at 7th level, you can add your wisdom modifier to your initiative bonus and you can’t be surprised

Insightful Prediction
Through your many years of battle you have learned to predict the opponent's movements and where their attacks will land

At 10th level, you gain the evasion ability. when you are subjected to an effect that allows you to make a Dexterity saving throw to take only half damage, you instead take no damage if you succeed on the saving throw, and only half damage if you fail.

Pressure Point Strike
you can attempt to strike a creature’s pressure points to cause more damage than normal.

Starting at 15th level, When you make a melee attack the target must make a saving throw equal to 10 + your attack modifier, if they do not make it the target is paralyzed for 2d4 turns. You can use this ability once per long rest

Instinctive Dodge
You have trained for battle for so long that attempting to dodge a attack coming towards you is pure instinct now.

At 18th level, you can add your wisdom modifier to your AC

[nickl_2000]

Alright a few issues

Skillful Strikes - I'm not sure why, but I feel like the weapons here should be limited more than martial. Maybe make the fighter choose from Monk weapons since that's a somewhat similar ability. I just don't like letting a fighter use a Glaive or Two Handed Sword from wisdom alone.

Concentrated - It's enough to add Wis to initiative, if someone wants to not be surprised, they can take alert. Then you could also easily add an out of combat ability here to make the level more fun (see examples below)

Insightful Prediction - I understand your point here, but I don't think evasion makes a whole lot of sense. Beyond that, I think it is flat out to good for a fighter to get without investing a feat (shield master). I think it would be better to have an ability (based on Wis modifier/rest) that can impose disadvantage against the opponent for an attack as a reaction or something like that.

Level 18 This seems like to much to me, a potential constant +5 to wisdom is huge..... That being said it's a capstone, so meh

As a side note, everything single skill here is combat based. There isn't a single thing in here that affects the social or exploration tiers of the character. There are some things you can do here that would help.

For example
Level 3 - Pick a skill from the wisdom based skills and get proficiency in it.
Level 7 - Can spend downtime training companions in martial skills. When doing so each day of training counts as 2 (or 3 maybe... basically reducing training to learn martial skills).
Level 7 - Has spent many years training and facing down enemies larger and strong than him. PC has advantage when rolling against an intimidation checks

[Bannan_mantis]

Thank you for your suggestions. For some of the suggestions they wouldn't work as say for the level 3 ability I can see how it can feel weird so maybe instead similar to the kensei monk they get that only on one kind of weapon say a rapier or a longsword or a whip and for the level 7 suggestion I am not so sure about the intimidation type of feature but I do like the idea of a more out of combat ability so I will take that into account. I apologise if I am being annoying this is my first time and I have a clear idea in mind of a type of fighter that uses wisdom over dexterity and strength and can predict a opponents attacks in a way

[Lalliman]

To add to what Nickl_2000 said.

Skilful Strikes: It is certainly a little odd to picture an 8 Str character wielding a greatsword effectively because of his high Wis. I would've been more inclined to have your Wis score grant more peripheral benefits than using it for your attack rolls, but if that's the kind of character you want this to be I won't disagree with that. I wouldn't restrict it to monk weapons, that seems too limiting to me. But maybe to make it more reasonable you could say "You must have at least 13 Strength to apply this feature to a weapon with the heavy property."

That little flavour issue aside, Skilful Strikes honestly doesn't do that much. Wis isn't that much more useful than Str (let alone Dex), so you're not getting much of a benefit out of this. You need something more to compete with the likes of Martial Superiority.

Pressure Point Strike: Apparently Nickl missed this one, because it's totally absurd. It paralyses (which is more powerful than stun) for an average of 5 turns with no recurring save, has a save DC 2 points higher than any other save-based ability, and there's no indication that it can't be used as part of a complete Attack action. This is a save-or-die of the likes 5e has rarely seen. Seriously, just turn it into a variant of Stunning Strike or something. And use the normal save DC of 8 + prof + Wis.

Instinctive Dodge: Yeah, this is obviously too much, even at level 18. Maybe you can add your Wis to AC against one attack as a reaction?

[nickl_2000]

Thank you for your suggestions. For some of the suggestions they wouldn't work as say for the level 3 ability I can see how it can feel weird so maybe instead similar to the kensei monk they get that only on one kind of weapon say a rapier or a longsword or a whip and for the level 7 suggestion I am not so sure about the intimidation type of feature. I apologise if I am being annoying this is my first time and I have a clear idea in mind of a type of fighter that uses wisdom over dexterity and strength and can predict a opponents attacks in a way

No, you are not being annoying at all. It's your homebrew and your idea. I'm simply laying out other thoughts that I had (I try to give options as much as I can).

The Kensai style is a good one, but I would let the player choose the weapons to give them more control over the character. I would also make it so that they can get more weapons as they level ( you get either prof mod weapons or wisdom mod weapons and can choose another weapon when the number increases). This limits it in power somewhat, but also gives the player freedom to build as they want to build.


As to prediction of the attacks then here is another option on how to do it without giving evasion. The PC can, as a reaction to being attacked, add their wisdom modifier to their ac for that attack. They would function the same as defensive duelist or shield. The player can use this skill 3 times per long rest at level 7, 4 times per long rest at level 10, and 5 times per long rest at level 15.


Then you could change the level 18 ability so that if they roll initiative and have no uses left of Insightful Prediction, they regain 2 uses of it (or something like that).

[Bannan_mantis]

good point I like your additions to the skilful strike and I see what was wrong with that. I was possibly thinking of changing it from paralyses to just level of exhaustion effects and it lasts for 1d4 rounds instead of 2d4 rounds and with the skilful dodge ability I can see what you are thinking. would changing it to say half your wisdom be better or would it be better to think of something new entirely?

[Bannan_mantis]

I like your ideas Nicki and I feel that may work better. I also decided to take more of a look and thought more of possibly having that trait and something similar to uncanny dodge as well so you can use it for attacks and saves but if you feel again that I am getting overpowered with that then I will keep it to the suggested ability you provided.

[Bannan_mantis]

Alright I have taken what you said and changed parts of the subclass. I feel that I still need extra bonuses to third level and I am not so sure about the other skills but here it is

Skilful Strikes
You have learned many techniques and skills and have learned how to use timing and precision over power and speed

Starting at 3rd level, you can use your wisdom modifier instead of your strength or dexterity modifier with one martial weapon of your choice

Predicted Observation

Starting at 7th level, as a reaction to being attacked you can add your wisdom modifier to their ac for that attack. You can use this skill 3 times per long rest at level 7, 4 times per long rest at level 10, and 5 times per long rest at level 15.

Fast footwork
Through your many years of battle you have learned to predict the opponent's movements and where their attacks will land

At 10th level, you can use all your reactions to move out of range of the radius of a attack. If you succeed on a dexterity saving throw you can take no damage instead of half. This can only be used if there is an area for you to move to and the movement you can take is limited to your movement speed

Pressure Point Strike

Starting at 15th level, you can attempt to strike a creature’s pressure points to cause more damage than normal. When you make a melee attack the target must make a saving throw equal to 10 + your attack modifier, if they do not make it the attack is counted as a critical hit. You can use this once per long rest

Instinctive Dodge
You have trained for battle for so long that attempting to dodge a attack coming towards you is pure instinct now.

At 18th level, whenever you roll for initiative and have no uses of predicted observation you regain one use

[nickl_2000]

Level 3, increase the amount of items you can use to more than 1. You at least need 2 weapons, but I think it should be based on Wisdom Mod of Proficiency Mod.


I would also include a social tier ability check at level 3.

Skill in intimidation, expertise in something, or something else. That would add to the power of the overall class, without breaking anything from a combat balance issue

[Bannan_mantis]

For the social ability I have this idea in mind

You gain proficiency in one skill and expertise in a other out of perception, insight, history, persuasion, deception, intimidation and investigation

also for skilful strikes what if every few levels you can use another weapon with it say 3 at 7th level, 4 at 10th level and 5 at 15th level

[Lalliman]

It's improving, but I have some more thoughts.


Level 3, increase the amount of items you can use to more than 1. You at least need 2 weapons, but I think it should be based on Wisdom Mod of Proficiency Mod.
I disagree with this whole approach, I wouldn't limit it to specific weapons at all. I can reluctantly accept the Kensei doing it because limited weapon selection is the monk's deal, but I think limiting the player's choices to a few specific weapons is an unfun mechanic that has no place in 5th edition.

Consider the implications: If you're stripped of your weapons and forced to fight with what you can find, you'll be far worse at fighting until you can find just the right weapon. If you find some great magic weapon that you want to use, there's a high chance you can't because it isn't the right type. Is that what you want this class to be like?


Starting at 7th level, as a reaction to being attacked you can add your wisdom modifier to their ac for that attack. You can use this skill 3 times per long rest at level 7, 4 times per long rest at level 10, and 5 times per long rest at level 15.
'Their AC' should be 'your AC'.

That aside, the timing of this is a bit odd. 7th level tends to be reserved for a non-combat ability (e.g. Know Your Enemy, Remarkable Athlete). Since you have a lack of a good feature at 3rd, couldn't you just put this there? Make it 2 uses at 3rd level, then increase from 7th. Then you can put a non-combat ability at 7th.


At 10th level, you can use all your reactions to move out of range of the radius of a attack. If you succeed on a dexterity saving throw you can take no damage instead of half. This can only be used if there is an area for you to move to and the movement you can take is limited to your movement speed
I don't like the change to this compared to Evasion, because it has weird implications on the classes that have actual Evasion. Evasion is kind of an abstract ability, you're supposed to assume that the character somehow moved out of the way of the effect or hid behind something, even though technically speaking they're still in the same square. Because this feature does what Evasion does but also moves the character in the process, it strongly implies that yes, rogues and monks do indeed phase through fireballs without moving from where they stand. By trying to remove the weirdness of Evasion, you're making the other classes look even weirder.

It's also weird in that it gives you extra movement that you wouldn't otherwise get. So you can get somewhere quicker if a wizard is throwing fireball at you.


Starting at 15th level, you can attempt to strike a creature’s pressure points to cause more damage than normal. When you make a melee attack the target must make a saving throw equal to 10 + your attack modifier, if they do not make it the attack is counted as a critical hit. You can use this once per long rest
A crit does only about 50% more damage than a normal hit, so this is very underwhelming for something you can only do once per long rest. Rather than pump up the damage, I would add an extra effect. Like, it becomes a critical hit and the target has the poisoned condition until your next turn. I'd also make it once per short rest.

The save DC is still wrong though. 8 + attack modifier would consistent with all other save DCs, but you shouldn't base it on attack modifier because then it becomes vastly stronger with Archery Fighting Style. It should be 8 + prof + Wis mod.

[Bannan_mantis]

I see what you are saying and I tried to make the tenth level ability similar to shield master in a way, would changing it will keeping the same feel of it be better or should I change it all together and for pressure point strike I see what you mean, it can be a critical hit for damage and possible causes the poison effect for 1d4 rounds

[Bannan_mantis]

If I do switch the 7th level ability out for a utility feat would something like this work well?

You have a number of tactical advantage points equal to your wisdom modifier. Whenever you are in combat, war, or competition you can spend one tactical advantage point as a bonus action to roll an insight check against your opponent's deception check. On a success, you know what your opponents planned next move is. On a failure, you do not know what the opponent could be planning. You do not know whether you succeed or fail.
You can also attempt to bluff a move and make your opponent think you are going to do something when in reality you will not. You must be able to communicate with the opponent for this to be usable and it's a insight check from the opponent with a dc of 8 + your prof mod + your wis mod

You regain your expended tactical advantage points when you finish a short rest.

[Bannan_mantis]

I have taken into consideration what you guys said and I hope this is the last post of the whole subclass I will make but if you still think changes are needed changes will be made.

Skilful Strikes
Starting at 3rd level, you can use your wisdom modifier instead of your strength or dexterity modifier with all martial weapons

Experienced Tactician
You gain proficiency in one skill and expertise in a other out of perception, insight, history, persuasion, deception and investigation

Tactical Advantage
Starting at 7th level, You have a number of tactical advantage points equal to your wisdom modifier. Whenever you are in combat, war, or competition you can spend one tactical advantage point as a bonus action to roll an insight check against your opponent's deception check. On a success, you know what your opponents planned next move is. On a failure, you do not know what the opponent could be planning. You do not know whether you succeed or fail.
You can also attempt to bluff a move and make your opponent think you are going to do something when in reality you will not. You must be able to communicate with the opponent for this to be usable and it's a insight check from the opponent with a dc of 8 + your prof mod + your wis mod

You regain your expended tactical advantage points when you finish a short rest.

Predicted Observation
Starting at 10th level, as a reaction to being attacked you can add your wisdom modifier to their ac for that attack. You can use this skill 4 times per short rest at level 10, 5 times per short rest at level 15 and 6 times per short rest at level 18

Pressure Point Strike
Starting at 15th level, you can attempt to strike a creature’s pressure points to cause more damage than normal. When you make a melee attack the target must make a constitution saving throw with a dc equal to 8 + your prof bonus + wis mod, if they do not make the saving throw the attack's damage is counted as a critical hit and the target has the posion effect. You can use this once per short rest

Instinctive Observations
Starting at 18th level, whenever you roll for initiative and have no uses of predicted observation you regain one use

[Composer99]

Overall, I think it's a decent first effort. My two overall comments would be:

(1) I suggest cleaning up the wording so that it's a bit more in line with the 5e aesthetic and a bit more rigorous. I've included suggested changes in one instance.

(2) Right now there are two extra sets of resources you have to manage (tactical advantage points and uses of Predicted Observation), both of which recharge on a short or long rest, and a feature that recharges on a short or long rest (Pressure Point Strike). That's getting kind of cluttered, don't you think? I'll make some suggestions as I get into individual features. Speaking of which...


I have taken into consideration what you guys said and I hope this is the last post of the whole subclass I will make but if you still think changes are needed changes will be made.

Skilful Strikes
Starting at 3rd level, you can use your wisdom modifier instead of your strength or dexterity modifier with all martial weapons

Experienced Tactician
You gain proficiency in one skill and expertise in a other out of perception, insight, history, persuasion, deception and investigation

This subclass gets Wisdom to... weapons. Do you mean weapon attack rolls? Damage rolls? Both? You need to be specific.

Adding Wisdom to weapon attack rolls (for any weapon) but not to damage rolls would probably be the most realistic option, but would just mean adding Wisdom to the list of ability scores you need to be good at, so I suspect you just need to add Wisdom to both attack and damage rolls.

Also, why not simple weapons as well? That would seem to fit with the theme of seasoned veteran who can use any weapon by relying on experience and know-how.

Taken together, the two of these are fine: they show that you're an experienced fighter who relies on your wits, finely honed instincts, and deep knowledge of combat in order to survive in (or out of) a fight.

Nitpick: I would suggest re-wording Experienced Tactician as follows:

Choose one of your skill proficiencies from Deception, Insight, Investigation, History, Perception, and Persuasion. Your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check you make that uses that proficiency. You also become proficient with another skill of your choice from the above list.


Tactical Advantage
Starting at 7th level, You have a number of tactical advantage points equal to your wisdom modifier. Whenever you are in combat, war, or competition you can spend one tactical advantage point as a bonus action to roll an insight check against your opponent's deception check. On a success, you know what your opponents planned next move is. On a failure, you do not know what the opponent could be planning. You do not know whether you succeed or fail.
You can also attempt to bluff a move and make your opponent think you are going to do something when in reality you will not. You must be able to communicate with the opponent for this to be usable and it's a insight check from the opponent with a dc of 8 + your prof mod + your wis mod

You regain your expended tactical advantage points when you finish a short rest.

Oo-kay. I'm not a fan of this feature.

(1) There's no mechanical benefit to success. As a result, it doesn't fit well with the abstract, turn-based nature of combat, and it's not enforceable. Your DM could just forget you used this feature, or the target could just change its mind by the time its turn comes around.

It's also not particularly helpful. Most of the time, you have a good idea of what your opponents want to do anyway: cast a spell if they're a spellcaster, hit someone with a weapon if they're not. The only mystery is who they will target.

(2) The "bluff your enemy" part of the feature doesn't give you any benefit if you succeed.

I'm going to recommend that you replace this feature, and combine the replacement with Predicted Observation. I would suggest the following for sure for this feature:
- You get a number of uses of the feature equal to your proficiency bonus (tying it to your skill and experience as a warrior)
- You recover expended uses when you finish a short or long rest
- At 18th level, you recover one use of this feature whenever you roll initiative and have no uses
- This feature lets you add your Wisdom modifier to a variety of die rolls or scores.

Here are some options for what it could be used for:
- Add it to initiative roll (no action)
- Add it to a saving throws (requires your reaction)
- Add it to Intelligence or Charisma ability checks, giving you some additional out-of-combat utility (no action)
- Add it to ability checks with tools (no action)
- Add it to your Armour Class as per Predicted Observation (requires your reaction)
- Subtract it from an opponent's Armour Class; because you're a seasoned fighter, you more easily notice and exploit weak spots in defences - or you could "fluff" this as being a successful bluff (requires your bonus action)


Predicted Observation
Starting at 10th level, as a reaction to being attacked you can add your wisdom modifier to their ac for that attack. You can use this skill 4 times per short rest at level 10, 5 times per short rest at level 15 and 6 times per short rest at level 18

See above. If you go that route, you'd need a replacement feature for this level. You could go with something that gives you temporary hit points, or get advantage on ability checks to avoid being surprised, or even something that lets you extend the benefits of your "Seasoned Veteran"/revised Predicted Observation feature to your allies. Or, you could even move Pressure Point Strike to this level.


Pressure Point Strike
Starting at 15th level, you can attempt to strike a creature’s pressure points to cause more damage than normal. When you make a melee attack the target must make a constitution saving throw with a dc equal to 8 + your prof bonus + wis mod, if they do not make the saving throw the attack's damage is counted as a critical hit and the target has the posion effect. You can use this once per short rest


Instinctive Observations
Starting at 18th level, whenever you roll for initiative and have no uses of predicted observation you regain one use

Both these features are fine (although you might rename Instinctive Observations as per the discussion above). I personally consider them underwhelming for 15th and 18th level, but they're in line with what other fighter subclasses get, and they are solid in and of themselves.

Incidentally, if you move Pressure Point Strike to 10th level, you could do something like the following for 15th level:

Veteran's Reflexes
Once per round, after you use your reaction to make an opportunity attack, you regain the use of your reaction.


(By way of comparison, the cavalier gets a reaction once per (everyone else's) turn for opportunity attacks at 18th level, so this is definitely not overpowered for 15th. IMO it's also thematic for a grizzled survivor who's seen it all and knows his or her way around a fight.)

[Bannan_mantis]

wow, thank you very much Composer99 your input is a massive help to this. (forgot the other part about this reply, I understand those ideas now, I apologise if this is annoying)

[Bannan_mantis]

looking more at your reply I feel I understand you more and I must ask your opinion on the 15th level ability. I do not exactly feel like the veterans reflexes ability works very well so I have a few ideas for what could be the 15th level ability instead.

1) weapon expertise, you choose 4 martial weapons and you can add double proficiency bonus to attack rolls made with those weapons

2) you gain proficiency in wisdom and charisma saving throws

3) you have advantage on all frightened and charmed saves

I am not saying you have all three of these abilities at once but mixing these abilities for the 15th level ability I feel would be a better option than the veteran's reflexes ability.

[Composer99]

Advantage on saving throws against being charmed or frightened is by itself probably enough for 15th level.

[Bannan_mantis]

alright then taking into account all of what you guys have suggested I have finalised the subclass, here is a cool little page for it

https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/B1ZGI_Rjfm

[Clodix367]

Honestly rolling up a character for this now, it looks pretty good

[Bannan_mantis]

Honestly rolling up a character for this now, it looks pretty good

That's good to hear, thanks a lot

[Bannan_mantis]

Subclass review and changes:

I have done 5 small games to play test this subclass and see how good it is and too see if it needs some changes and it needs a few changes but overall this is a very good class and I feel I have been able to capture the feeling I was going for. I have made a few changes in this class to assist with what I am trying to go for and to overall make this class feel like more of a subclass.

Roleplay:

First off is the role-play element of this subclass and to be honest I feel that this subclass is honestly very fun to role-play with as it gives the user a wide array of options for choices to make about their character and the type of fighter they are, the only real restrictions are that the character has to use skill over strength and speed and honestly that isn't all too much of a problem. I had myself and two others trying this over the course of those games and one person used a lizard folk who had their entire tribe killed, another used a blind wood elf who used their other senses instead of their vision and I used a human who became obsessed with learning fighting style from ancient times so it doesn't limit you and also another thing that is fun is describing how you attack a enemy. You can have your character almost (in role-play) manipulate the opponent and saying how they predict their movements and act on them is honestly very fun.

Gameplay:

Now the 3rd level abilities, I must say this already works very well with the feeling of the class, using wisdom instead of dex/str works very well with the feeling of the class and the proficiencies you gain are very useful as well. One thing I enjoy abut this is you aren't limited by your weapon choices at all with this and that works well with this being a subclass that is basically the most skilled fighter subclass than any other subclass so this works very well. One change is that I am changing it to where you can choose two proficiencies (not double proficiencies) instead of one.

Next is the 7th level ability, this works with the feeling of the subclass but then it starts to kind of work too well to the point where this feels like the classes' battle manoeuvres or it's fighting spirit ability but you then get this at seventh level instead of third level so I feel this needs a change. looking at other subclasses the samurai's elegant courtier looks pretty good and does feel like this subclass but at the same time I wanna make this subclass still feel unique and not the same, to make up for this I am changing the subclass ability as follows

Tactician's mind
Starting at 7th level, You get a number of Tactical points equal to your proficiency bonus. This feature lets you add your Wisdom modifier to any Deception, Investigation, History and Persuasion skill check and doing so costs one tactical point. you also gain proficiency in wisdom saving throws

I feel this works and is on a equal footing to elegant courtier as unlike elegant courtier this gives you a wider array of choices for the skill checks you will add your wisdom modifier to but as a down side you have a limited number of uses so I feel it evens out, also this class is most likely very wise and intelligent so having a proficiency in wisdom saving throws makes sense.

Next is the 10th level ability, this is again like the 3rd level ability perfect for what I am trying to go for, it emphasises how this type of fighter has much more knowledge than other archetypes and attacking a pressure point is a smart idea that also shows skill as it is hard to do if the opponent is wearing plate armour.

Second last is the 15th level ability, this ability while it works with what I am going for with this archetype but it actually loses it's use from other class and race abilities, it is still quite powerful when this doesn't happen but for the fact that it does I feel I should change this a little bit. Instead of it being purely advantage on charmed and frightened saving throws I am changing it to where your charisma saving throw is equal to your wisdom saving throw, I feel that this works as it helps with mental affects and this subclass is abut having a very sharp and powerful mind and it's essentially a boosted up charisma saving throw proficiency and that isn't too over powered when you consider that this is the 15th level ability

And finally is the 18th level ability, I felt that already this wasn't all that good as it's a roll for initiative gain back point type ability and the battle master and arcane archer gets that at 15th level (and then take into account the battle superiority dice and arcane shot are probably used more and more useful than the old tactical points) and the samurai gets it's version at 10th level and then you see how it wasn't all to good. A replacement for this is one that in testing was pretty powerful but wasn't massively overpowered either and is similar to the cavalier's ability and it fundamentally works as by now you should be a master at predicting opponent's movements and strikes

Battle Foresight
Starting at 18th level, in combat, you get a special reaction that you can take once on every creature's turn, except your turn. You can use this special reaction only to increase you armour class by 4 for one melee attack, and you can't use it on the same turn that you take your normal reaction.

(Now I would like to see how others feel about these changes and knowing me I can tell that these are may be a little bit overpowered so I want to see how other people think, should I change the Battle Foresight to give you less AC, should I change the focused mind to just give proficiency in int and cha saving throws?)