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View Full Version : D&D 5e/Next [Very WIP] Truenamer Next



GreatWyrmGold
2018-07-05, 02:37 PM
I recently got bitten by the Homebrew Bug when I got the idea to adapt the Truenamer to D&D Next. I'd written most of a post about how I haven't brewed anything in a while, nothing for 5e, so I wanted to take it slow, then talking about the mechanics of the 3.5 Truenamer and how I could adapt them before letting them be examined, how I planned to assemble them after getting some feedback...but I made the mistake of doing that in-browser, and lost it because Murphy's Law. So that was a summary of why this post and the next are so bare-bones.

Yes, "the next". I'm not going to have a thread where I design something bit by bit without reserving the first post for an index. Speaking of which:

Early Mechanical Ideas

GreatWyrmGold
2018-07-05, 02:39 PM
What is there so say about the Truenamer? What defines them, mechanically?

It's broken and poorly-edited You know, let's not try to duplicate that part.
Truenaming relied on skill checks, with DCs usually determined by the power of the target and rarely by the level of the utterance. This means that your weakest and strongest utterances were equally easy to do, weirdly. I'll probably drop that bit...
Daily limits were determined not by a hard limit, but by slowly increasing the DC on your most-used utterances.
A few effects could be added by increasing the DC (or, in a couple of instances, by exceeding the DC enough).
Utterances generally have ridiculously short durations—almost always 1, 3, or 5 rounds.
Aside from utterances, Truenamers got a couple of utterance-like abilities (ULAs). Most simply duplicate spells, but the recitation feats (which involve repeating your name over and over, buffing yourself in the process) are kinda neat. Thematically, at least.
While many of its utterances (and ULAs) duplicated or mimicked spell effects, some were unique, and even many of the non-unique ones were notable for not allowing a saving throw (though you obviously had to make a Truenaming check).
The Truenamer focuses on buffs and debuffs, with an unexpected focus on neat caster buffs. Even outside buffs and debuffs, very few of their utterances target target inanimate objects or more than one creature (outside a very-late-game feature).
The Truenamer's secondary abilities had a strong know-it-all theme. From Truename Research as a bonus feat to Knowledge Focus to Knowledge skills being most of its skill list, the Truenamer had to be a book-smart guy. Which makes some amount of sense.


How can we adapt these?
Let's start with skill bonuses. A 1st-level Truenamer with proficiency and an Intelligence around 15 will have about a +4 bonus to Truenaming, which will increase to +11 at level 20 if their Intelligence is 20 and no other effects are in play. This increase is linear over these 20 levels, +2 per five levels (except for 15->20), so if other bonuses are eventually available to the Truenamer (e.g, if an Amulet of the Silver Tongue is found in a monster hoard), something like 12 plus half the CR/level of the target would be fine for having just over a 50/50 chance of success.
Of course, there should be modifiers. On the positive side, using a weaker utterance than your most powerful or knowing the target's personal truename should provide a bonus (+2/level and +5?), and we'll probably want to add some penalties. At bare minimum, we'll want a Law of Resistance. (Don't freak out, I have no intent of making utterances that would be underpowered if they were easily available at will.)
How should the LoR work? Well, let's compare the sorcerer. At 20th level, they can use their sixth-level spells twice a day total, their first-level ones four times, and the levels in the middle three. Granted, this is mitigated somewhat by sorcery points and whatnot, but if truenamers get any meaningful number of their top-tier utterances, even having LoR effectively prevent them from using a given utterance more than twice (say, +4/utterance), their resources will greatly outstrip those of traditional casters. Whether or not this is a problem depends on how this balances against lacking access to higher-level spells and their relative inflexibility. It could also be made less bad by increasing the base DC, but that feels a little too punishing for Truenamers who don't score some kind of extra bonuses on their Truenaming checks. Still, it's worth considering other options.
For instance, what if the Law of Resistance equivalent reduced the effectiveness of all truenaming? If each utterance increased the DC of truenaming by 1 or 2, you'd only be able to get off a handful of your strongest utterances. This would probably make the Truenamer more comparable to the warlock, especially if it was a larger penalty which was restored after a short rest, but very loosely so. That might make it a bit trickier to balance...but I suppose it's good to make the Truenamer more distinct from other casters, right?

Alright, let's move onto the other points briefly, as well as other thoughts I've had. (The bullet points are mostly to avoid walls of text; they don't directly correspond to previous bullet points.)

I'll want to match up as many utterances (and ULAs) as possible with comparable spells, and probably make equivalents for any buffs and debuffs without utterance equivalents. Hopefully I'll be able to figure out a good effective spell level for those utterances (making it easier to balance the truenamer relative to other classes), which I can use to judge other utterances against.
I'm imagining that there would be just one list of utterances. Utterances affecting items and areas wouldn't be separate lexicons, but they would still be restricted to higher levels, preserving the original feel without adding needless complexity (and adding a bit of additional flexibility, which will hopefully prevent situations where no available utterances in a lexicon interest a player).
That said, the ULAs have a few unique factors which set them apart from utterances. In particular, all three require personal (rather than generic) truenames and can be done without the ability to see or otherwise detect the target. I'm not sure what to do with them; keep them as loose class features? Make them utterances with unique mechanics? Create a new category of Truenaming with its own list of abilities?
Meta-truename feats and Speak Unto the Masses would be options available to all Truenamers, if they accept the skill penalties.
Yes, this system has a lot of penalties and bonuses despite advantage and disadvantage being all the rage in 5e. If you can think of a good way to make the Truenamer work without just being a spellcaster with neat lore, I'd love to hear it.
I like the idea of making all utterance buffs/debuffs stick around without requiring concentration, balanced by relative power and ridiculously short durations. It would make them unique and highlight their mechanical focus.
That said, I've also considered having a few "utility buffs" (or maybe utterances in general, but it's only useful for utility buffs) which can be repeated over and over in a Truenaming mantra, keeping the effect going for more than 30 seconds. This would be especially useful for utterances which let people fly or give skill bonuses.
I'm not sure if I should make recitations utterances or their own thing...I've thought about mixing them with Acolyte of the Ego abilities into a gishy archetype, which is another option. Speaking of archetypes, the Bereft prestige class would make another decent archetype, and the Brimstone Speaker and Fiendbinder could be mixed into the third.
Say My Name and I am There is one of the coolest things in the Truenamer arsenal. I'm not sure if I should make it part of the Truenamer capstone or part of a high-level Egotist-archetype ability...


And that seems like a good place to stop and ask for critique from people who know what they're doing.

Jormengand
2018-07-05, 02:41 PM
You might look at my own attempt at this and the feedback it received (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?495113-The-Truenamer-(3-5-to-5-conversion-PEACH)).

Amnoriath
2018-07-05, 07:29 PM
1. Hold on there, there is an easy way to resolve this as it is. First creatures have a proficiency bonus as well, all you need to do at base is have your utterances target an ability score. Than your Truespeech check targets a DC equal to 8+prof. mod.+x ability mod. The only thing that would add to the formula is if the creature has legendary actions. If you utter their truename you have advantage on the check.
2. The 2 laws in 3e that increased the dc is needlessly complex and requires you to book keep a different dc for each utterance you have. It should be a hard and flat rule. If you target the same creature with the same utterance before completing a rest you have disadvantage on the check. If you should fail on this check you can't use the same utterance on that creature again until you complete a rest.
3. Now, you are probably thinking how is this thing going to reliably use utterances? Well this is where both your class and truenames come in. The class itself should have a feature lets call "phrases". These are free additional uses to delay the law of resistance. If you know their truename the law of resistance is delayed as long as you don't take advantage on the check and don't fail.
4. As for willing creatures you treat them as if you know and/o utter their truenames for using utterances.

Amnoriath
2018-07-05, 08:10 PM
Actually lets change 3 to a cadence pool It increases like a ki pool and the level of utterance is equal to the cost of points to delay the law of resistance. The pool refreshes after a long rest.

GreatWyrmGold
2018-07-05, 09:40 PM
You might look at my own attempt at this and the feedback it received (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?495113-The-Truenamer-(3-5-to-5-conversion-PEACH)).
Thanks! That's given me some thoughts to think on. It sticks a bit too close to the mechanics of the original truenamer (more of a port than an adaptation, by my reckoning), but it's a decent place to start, and the critique should help me avoid some basic mistakes.



1. Hold on there, there is an easy way to resolve this as it is. First creatures have a proficiency bonus as well, all you need to do at base is have your utterances target an ability score. Than your Truespeech check targets a DC equal to 8+prof. mod.+x ability mod. The only thing that would add to the formula is if the creature has legendary actions. If you utter their truename you have advantage on the check.
2. The 2 laws in 3e that increased the dc is needlessly complex and requires you to book keep a different dc for each utterance you have. It should be a hard and flat rule. If you target the same creature with the same utterance before completing a rest you have disadvantage on the check. If you should fail on this check you can't use the same utterance on that creature again until you complete a rest.
3.
Actually lets change 3 to a cadence pool It increases like a ki pool and the level of utterance is equal to the cost of points to delay the law of resistance. The pool refreshes after a long rest.
4. As for willing creatures, you get advantage on the check. If you utter their truename no check is necessary.
To resolve what?
You've got a pretty good point about the Law of Resistance. I'm not sure that the solution in #2 is any better, or that #3 is needed. After all, you're going to have a good number of utterances and probably more than one potential target for each. It causes problems for buffs, but you have basically infinite debuffs if you switch things up a bit. (Not to mention that keeping track of which creatures you've used which utterances on doesn't seem simpler than keeping track of how many times you've used each.)
I should probably stick to a system where the Law of Resistance is one flat number. You've used X utterances, whatever they are, you get Y penalty, even if you haven't used utterance Z yet.

Amnoriath
2018-07-05, 11:30 PM
To resolve what?
You've got a pretty good point about the Law of Resistance. I'm not sure that the solution in #2 is any better, or that #3 is needed. After all, you're going to have a good number of utterances and probably more than one potential target for each. It causes problems for buffs, but you have basically infinite debuffs if you switch things up a bit. (Not to mention that keeping track of which creatures you've used which utterances on doesn't seem simpler than keeping track of how many times you've used each.)
I should probably stick to a system where the Law of Resistance is one flat number. You've used X utterances, whatever they are, you get Y penalty, even if you haven't used utterance Z yet.

1. The straight linear increase in a DC class making high CR creatures always harder than lower ones. Currently you are stuck at a 50/50 chance if you max Intelligence. Note that in saves if someone is proficient and maxes it they have a 65% chance to beat what a spellcaster gives them which still could damage them. Either the law of resistance as you use it isn't significant enough to warrant the difference making an at will caster against weaker foes and/or it cripples you to not being functional against stronger foes. By adding in the factor of targeting ability scores you can attack ones they are weak in to mitigate this problem.
2. How many would they know? It won't be nearly as many as in 3e as it relied off of many weaker and stronger versions of the same thing.
3. I didn't say they have infinite buffs, but I didn't explain it and would be needlessly complex now that I think about it.:smallredface:
4. All they really need to do is note if they used it. They would have them as a list really they could just put a coin by it as a reminder. Also this pool wouldn't be just for this, it can be used to fuel your class abilities and any other abilities an utterance may have.
5. So the class doesn't do anything about it? Often the best designs in 5e of abilities to stretch normal rules.
6. Also, how does advantage or disadvantage in ability checks apply with Truespeech to you?