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StickMan
2007-09-11, 04:01 PM
OK so this is a dragon base class for a gestalt world, so the other class would be were the dragons would get there casting from if any. Does this class work, keep in mind here its for a gestalt world, but it should also still be in balance with other classes. I may also being using this for half dragons, being members of another race with levels in this class getting rid of the template. Any ideas you have are welcome.

Every level of the class is the same as seen on the table below.

Dragon
Alignment: Any
Hit Dice: d12
Race: Dragon and Half-Dragon
Class skills:
The Dragons Class skills are: Listen (Wis), Search (Wis), Spot (Wis), Concentration (Con), Diplomacy (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (any) (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Use Magic Device (Cha).
Skill Points at 1st Level: (6 + Int modifier) x4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 6 + Int modifier.

The Dragon
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+1|
+2|
+2|
+2| Draconic Power

2nd|
+2|
+3|
+3|
+3| Draconic Power

3rd|
+3|
+3|
+3|
+3| Draconic Power

4th|
+4|
+4|
+4|
+4| Draconic Power

5th|
+5|
+4|
+4|
+4| Draconic Power

6th|
+6|
+5|
+5|
+5| Draconic Power

7th|
+7|
+5|
+5|
+5| Draconic Power

8th|
+8|
+6|
+6|
+6| Draconic Power

9th|
+9|
+6|
+6|
+6| Draconic Power

10th|
+10|
+7|
+7|
+7| Draconic Power

11th|
+11|
+7|
+7|
+7| Draconic Power

12th|
+12|
+8|
+8|
+8| Draconic Power

13th|
+13|
+8|
+8|
+8| Draconic Power

14th|
+14|
+9|
+9|
+9| Draconic Power

15th|
+15|
+9|
+9|
+9| Draconic Power

16th|
+16|
+10|
+10|
+10| Draconic Power

17th|
+17|
+10|
+10|
+10| Draconic Power

18th|
+18|
+11|
+11|
+11| Draconic Power

19th|
+19|
+11|
+11|
+11| Draconic Power

20th|
+20|
+12|
+12|
+12| Draconic Power [/table]


Draconic Power: At each Level the Dragon gains a new expansion of its natural powers. A Dragon may not select the same Draconic Power twice in a row.
Dragon Breath: The Dragon gains a Breath weapon that it can use every 1d4+1 rounds. The Dragon must select the energy type from the following list: Fire, Acid, Cold, and Sonic. Each time the dragon uses his breath weapon he may select weather it should be a 60 foot line or a 30 foot cone. The First time this feat is selected the breath weapon deals 2d8 damage, each additional time dragon breath is selected the damage is increased by 1d8. A Dragons Breath weapon has allows for a reflex save of for half damage the DC+10+1/2 Dragon levels+Constitution modifier.
Dragon Might: Increase one ability score by +2, you may may take this ability a number of times, for the same score a number of times equal to one fifth you dragon level. You may not take Dragon Might twice in a row even to increase different ability scores.
Draconic Resistance: You gain Energy resistance 5 to one energy type. If you take this Power a more than once each time you can increases the same resistance by 5 or increases a new one. Once a Draconic Resistance has been taken 5 times for the same energy type the dragon gains Immunity to that energy type.
Draconic Endurance: You Gain Damage Reduction 1/-, each tie you select this Power your Damage Reduction increases by 1. You may only have Damage Reduction from Dragonic Endurance equal to one fourth your Dragon levels.
Dragon Armor: Your natural Armor increases by 1, you may only select Dragon Armor a number of times equal to one fourth plus one your charter level.



Dragon (Player Race)
Medium: As Medium creatures, dragons have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
-Type: Dragon
-Medium: As Medium creatures, Dragons have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
-Dragon base land speed is 40 feet.
-Darkvision out to 60 feet and low-light vision.
-Immunity to magic sleep effects and paralysis effects.
-Dragon Hide: Dragons have hide and mussel nearly as hard as steel covering most of there bodies. Because of this Dragons have and armor bonus equal to 2+ there constitution modifier. Because of the thickness of there hide -Dragons can not wear armor.
-Quadrupeds: Dragons are Quadrupeds as such they can carry more based that others there size, see page 162 of the players handbook for more. Because Dragons are Quadrupeds there hands are not made to use weapons and any attacks with a weapon a dragons would make is at a -4 penalty.
-Natural weapons: Medium Size Dragons have a Bite attack that deals 1d8 damage and two bite attacks that deal 1d6 damage. A dragonís teeth and claws count as both a natural weapon and a manufactured master work weapon for purposes of enchantment.
-Magic Body: Because of there magical nature a dragon may enchant his body, and natural weapons as if he had The Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat, by consuming gold equal to the amount need to craft the enchantment and spending the XP
-Automatic Language: Draconic and Common. Bonus Languages: Any

Dragons increases in size over time there this growth seems to be random with different members of the species growing at different rates. When a Dragon grows larger than medium size increases its size a per the normal rule of advancement. Only Dragons of Medium size can be played a player characters.

I'm still working on the feat that will give dragons wings but I think it will be based of how the raptorians gain flight, it may end up being two feats.

The Neoclassic
2007-09-11, 04:08 PM
It's like a half-dragon paragon class, to be combined in gestalt with a casting class?

StickMan
2007-09-11, 04:12 PM
It's like a half-dragon paragon class, to be combined in gestalt with a casting class?

Well yes and no they don't have to take a caster class I just put that up to deflect the question so do they still cast spells. Also it is being used for normal dragons as well, this is my attempt to make dragons playable in my world with out having level adjustments and still keeping the DND dragon flavor.

blue_fenix
2007-09-11, 04:28 PM
Looks like a nice way to build standardized dragons which can have varying individual abilities while all having the same CR for a given number of hit die. In a gestalt campaign in particular, as you mentioned, this works just fine, but even in a normal campaign it would allow a dragon PC to have better defined crunch and customization instead of being forced into a particular dragon color+age category. Of course, it's still overpowered compared to a normal PC class, but that's what dragons are supposed to be.

StickMan
2007-09-12, 10:07 AM
I think Dragon Might is the biggest issue with the class as a whole cause by level cause if you only increase two ability scores all the way to level 20 then they both have a +10 to that score, which seems to be a bit much I may need to change it so they have to apply the ability to a minim of three different scores.

One of the big issues with this class is that it is a very powerful passive class which can be matched with a powerful active class in a gestalt game. If anyone has any ideas as to how to balance it or change it but still keep it so its still keeping with the idea plz post any ideas.

StickMan
2007-09-12, 08:55 PM
Update: I've added the Dragon Race, also edited Dragon Might.

stolenchariot
2007-09-13, 08:40 PM
Love the idea man.. Can't think of anything contructive to say atm, but I'll get back to you on that.

Mr. Moogle
2007-09-15, 12:07 AM
Ummm... you might want to make a couple more draconic power options, right now its kind of limited.

JackMage666
2007-09-15, 12:36 AM
Wait, wait, wait... Perfect BAB, All good saves, and a d12 HD? So, it's got a perfect base, and, wait, it gets an ability EVERY level, which he can choose?

One of which gives a +2 to an ability score? Which you could take EVERY level (not to the same ability score, though, you have to wait every 5 levels for one increase.)

So...

Lvl 1 - Str +2
Lvl 2 - Dex +2
Lvl 3 - Con +2
Lvl 4 - Int +2
Lvl 5 - Wis +2
Lvl 6 - Str +2
Lvl 7 - Dex +2
... And so on...

Or, better yet, get rid of the mental stat increases, and get DR/-- or Natural Armor +2 or Energy Resistance. By 20th level, you have..

+8 Str, +8 Dex, +8 Con, DR 4/--, +8 Natural Armor, All Good Saves, Perfect BAB, and high HP, all before Magic Items come into play.

And, high number of skill points, including UMD. So, while it didn't have any magical abilities before, it can now use any Scroll, Wand, or Staff it comes across, or a mess of other things. He blows the fighter out of the water. Even the rogue looks pretty scant, though he can sneak attack at least. Wizards are hoping he doesn't carry scrolls. Barbarians Rage, because the Dragon class can't, but he can.

I don't know, it seems a bit broken to me.

StickMan
2007-09-15, 04:07 AM
Wait, wait, wait... Perfect BAB, All good saves, and a d12 HD? So, it's got a perfect base, and, wait, it gets an ability EVERY level, which he can choose?

One of which gives a +2 to an ability score? Which you could take EVERY level (not to the same ability score, though, you have to wait every 5 levels for one increase.)

So...

Lvl 1 - Str +2
Lvl 2 - Dex +2
Lvl 3 - Con +2
Lvl 4 - Int +2
Lvl 5 - Wis +2
Lvl 6 - Str +2
Lvl 7 - Dex +2
... And so on...

Or, better yet, get rid of the mental stat increases, and get DR/-- or Natural Armor +2 or Energy Resistance. By 20th level, you have..

+8 Str, +8 Dex, +8 Con, DR 4/--, +8 Natural Armor, All Good Saves, Perfect BAB, and high HP, all before Magic Items come into play.

And, high number of skill points, including UMD. So, while it didn't have any magical abilities before, it can now use any Scroll, Wand, or Staff it comes across, or a mess of other things. He blows the fighter out of the water. Even the rogue looks pretty scant, though he can sneak attack at least. Wizards are hoping he doesn't carry scrolls. Barbarians Rage, because the Dragon class can't, but he can.

I don't know, it seems a bit broken to me.

You can't take Dragon Might twice in a row its still the same ability even if its a different score. Also it can only be taken once per 5 levels of the class meaning at level 20 you can only have one ability boosted by +8. I'm thinking I need to reduce the Natural armor bonus given to only +1 from dragon armor +2 is to much. I may as well change the Damage reduction to being able to be taken every 5 levels, not sure on that one.

I'm not sure what other Draconic power options there are that are actual dragon powers. I mean the only thing left is like flight, fear aura and what Blind senses. I'm doing flight through a feat or two, as for fear aura and Blind senses well just not sure how to make them in to class abilities.


Thanks for the feed back,
Stickman

JackMage666
2007-09-15, 11:24 AM
You can't take Dragon Might twice in a row its still the same ability even if its a different score. Also it can only be taken once per 5 levels of the class meaning at level 20 you can only have one ability boosted by +8. I'm thinking I need to reduce the Natural armor bonus given to only +1 from dragon armor +2 is to much. I may as well change the Damage reduction to being able to be taken every 5 levels, not sure on that one.
Alright, then the ability wording needs to be changed.

Dragon Might: Increase one ability score by +2; you canít increase the same score more than once for every five levels of dragon you have, minimum 1.
As is, it allows you to take it as many times as you want, but you can only do the same score every five levels. So you could do my Dex/Str/Con combo, if you wanted. If you changed it to something like...

Dragon Might: Increase one ability score by +2; you can take this ability once for every five levels of dragon you have, minimum 1.
That should read more clear that you can oly take it once very five levels, not once every five levels for every ability.

Vadin
2007-09-15, 11:35 AM
I'd say it's a good way to build-a-dragon as long as you're alright with them being more powerful than other characters, especially in a gestalt game. No matter which class they choose to go gestalt with, they get full BAB, all good saves, and continual power increase in natural abilities.

To be fair, though, dragons have always been kind of unfair as it is...

Krelon
2007-09-15, 12:14 PM
as NPC class ok. Gives a really good dragon feeling.

for PC's in a 3.5 D&D setting I would add: for every 5 levels in this class you gain a cumulative level adjustment+1 (to a maximum of +4). And it will be balanced with the official base classes.

StickMan
2007-09-15, 10:47 PM
OK I updated, Dragon Might and Dragon Armor. I just noticed I forgot to list the DC for the Reflex save, on the breath weapon its up now as well.

I think I'm going to take the Reflex save down to bad, in an attempt to make the class a little more balanced.

I'm going to add a few one shot abilities to fill out the class a bit more, any suggestions would be welcome.

I would really like to hear what people have to say about the race.

Thanks,
Stickman

P.S. I seem to start a lot of, sentences with I. I think I should work on that. I apologize for repetitive grammar. I think its to late for me to be typing, I'm going to bed now.

Eighth_Seraph
2007-09-15, 11:09 PM
Heh. I'm not entirely certain whether that was meant to be a joke, but I found it funny anyway.

If you're worried about balance, a good thing to cut down on would be the Reflex save. Dragons generally don't seem particularly dodge-y, especially when they get big. A poor Reflex save progression and Bam! something vaguely akin to being within arrowshot of balance.

paigeoliver
2007-09-15, 11:47 PM
Full BAB, all good saves, D12 hit dice and 6 skill points per level is way over the top compared to normal classes. This class only balances if it has NO class abilities at all. I know it is based on the dragon monster type, but it isn't appropriate at all.

This class would be a decent match for most gestalt characters without even being gestalt.

It is particularly unbalanced for gestalt since it will likely universally be paired with wizard to get the full casting ability of a wizard with none of the normal drawbacks at all, and I mean none, since it would then have full everything, plus a full armor class (which is normally hard to do for a wizard).

I would change to good fort save only, 2 skill points per level and D10 hit dice, and that is just for starters.

Also, no matter what you are doing make the breath weapon advancement automatically take up some of the class abilities, as your class is written (gestalt campaign) no sane person would be using any slots for the breath weapon at all, since even spending half your slots on the thing gives you the same (or less) damage results as the spell your dragon/wizard can certainly cast instead.

StickMan
2007-09-16, 02:11 PM
Full BAB, all good saves, D12 hit dice and 6 skill points per level is way over the top compared to normal classes. This class only balances if it has NO class abilities at all. I know it is based on the dragon monster type, but it isn't appropriate at all.

You realize of course that really would be massively underpowered. Hit dice and base attack bonus are nothing to a few good spells.



It is particularly unbalanced for gestalt since it will likely universally be paired with wizard to get the full casting ability of a wizard with none of the normal drawbacks at all, and I mean none, since it would then have full everything, plus a full armor class (which is normally hard to do for a wizard).

I would change to good fort save only, 2 skill points per level and D10 hit dice, and that is just for starters.

Also, no matter what you are doing make the breath weapon advancement automatically take up some of the class abilities, as your class is written (gestalt campaign) no sane person would be using any slots for the breath weapon at all, since even spending half your slots on the thing gives you the same (or less) damage results as the spell your dragon/wizard can certainly cast instead.

Now as I have said I'm going to remove the Reflex save. Removing the will save would just be silly cause as you said this class will most likely be paired with another Casting class, and if its matched with a non caster class I'm not worried about balance much.

If your at all familiar with gestalt its not at all uncommon to have high hit dice, full base attack and casting. The unbalancing factor of this class is its class abilities. Full Armor class is not hard for a wizard at all, beside the spells that give it, Twilight Mitharal Chain Shirt works quite well.

The idea on the Breath weapon may be a good idea, I'm thinking about it. Also I would like to point out that unlimted Breath weapon a day is very nice cause then you can spend all the spells you want on other things. Also you run out of spells you don't run out of breath in general.