PDA

View Full Version : Pathfinder Bound Pathfinder 2nd Edition



Zman
2018-08-06, 02:08 PM
Created a Bound Pathfineder Houserule. Itís all located in the PDF. Essentially Pathfinder 2nd Edition is a super solid bound system with level scaling tacked on top. These rules uncover that system, similar and IMO superior to 5e.

Iíve also included a rules change for magic weapon damage dice converting them to innate and based on level.



Ok, here is a little example using a standard lvl 10 Fighter, 20Str, 12 Dex, Expert with a Greatsword, Trained in Heavy Armor, +2 Full Plate, +2 Greatsword. We will be pitting him against a lvl 0 Orc Brute, a lvl 10 Barbed Devil, and a lvl 20 Balor.

Stock P2 lvl 10 Fighter
Fighter +19 attack modifier, AC 29
Orc Brute +5 attack modifier, AC 13
Barbed Devil +20 attack modifier, AC 27
Balor +35 attack modifier, AC 44

Stock P2 lvl 10 Fighter
vs Orc Brute hits on 2+/2+/3+ gets hit on 20+/20+/20+
vs Barbed Devil hits on 8+/13+/18+ gets hit on 9+/14+/19+
vs Balor hits on20+/20+/20+ gets hit on 2+/2+/4+


Bounded P2 lvl 10 Fighter
Fighter +9 attack modifier, AC19
Orc Brute +5 attack modifier, AC13(Unchanged)
Barbed Devil +10 attack modifier, AC17
Balor +15 attack modifier, AC24

Bounded P2 lvl 10 Fighter
vs Orc Brute hits on 4+/9+/13+ gets hit on 14+/19+/20+
vs Barbed Devil hits on 8+/13+/18+ gets hit on 9+/14+/19+(Completely unchanged)
vs Balor hits on 15+/20+/20+ gets hit on 4+/9+/14+

As you can see the differences between he power level is narrowed. This has no effect on the damage dealt per attack, on hp, etc. These power levels are still vastly different for those factors alone. But the overt gap between the two has been narrowed and we're using smaller numbers in a semi bound system. Sure, P2 has expected magical bonuses to AC and attack modifier and especially damage baked in, but removing the level from calculations does not affect equal level conflicts which are balanced. It does open up the range of viable challenges for the party. Minions are more relevant, even at 10th level a fighter can't ignore a wave of orc brutes, they'll have to wade through them like a hero. Hell, a 20th level wizard who is out of spell slots will look at a rushing wave of basic orcs with a glimmer of fear. The other effect is that higher level enemies are somewhat weaker compared to the party.


Here is a pretty pdf version for anyone that is interested.

Bound Pathfinder 2nd Edition (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1EOv33DQjk5Zf0rTgS73xyGitX5mTjpW8/view?usp=sharing)

Zman
2018-08-27, 04:39 PM
These have been significantly cleaned up since I first wrote them. I also have a playtest if the bound rules over in my Xmanís Arena. Itís still recruiting for Bound and Unbound runs.

Iím looking at including a Magic Shielsís Fox as well. Essentially removing Sturdy Shields and replacing them with Armor Potency runes. They donít improve AC, but each +X adds a dent and increases the DR by 1.

Caelestion
2018-08-29, 05:56 PM
I think that this is an interesting initiative. Have you considered giving the increased damage dice to skill levels rather than character levels?

Zman
2018-08-29, 08:42 PM
I think that this is an interesting initiative. Have you considered giving the increased damage dice to skill levels rather than character levels?

Thanks, its also a lot of fun.

Tying the damage dice increase to proficiency? I have definitely considered it, and if I was a dev helping to build P2 from scratch I would likely do something like that. But, by tying it to level it maintains all of the internal damage and balance assumptions of stock P2. It is just, IMO, to easy and good of a fix to try and tie the increases to proficiency. If I were doing it from scratch something like it would look like an additional die at 7th and 12th level plus an additional die for Expert, Master, and Legendary and one die for a magic weapon. Though, you'd need to offer a feat chain to get to at least Master for other classes and something like that really borks the damage assumptions of the game.

It boils down to the only simple viable change for damage dice is to tie them to level instead of magic weapons. It works perfectly with the built in assumptions and greatly improves the variety of play. For instance, in Bardorak's Bound run he attacked with his +1 Pick, his Shield Boss, a with a Composite Shortbow. The weapons were viable choices because they had the extra damage dice, and obviously his +1 weapon was preferred. Magic weapons remain desirable for their +X, greater than just high quality weapons, and for their weapon properties. Characters are no longer to focus their WBL into the highest +X item and can diversify their purchases. It makes things like carrying Master crafted javelins a good idea, as well as backup weapons etc.

Caelestion
2018-08-30, 04:28 AM
i'd give a damage boost for using a magic weapon and then a second boost at 11th, both for all classes, with the other three expected boosts at E/M/L weapon levels. Once you add in a feat to allow trained weapon users to become Expert in one or more weapons (or even allow rangers/barbarians to become Master in some), that would heighten the fighter's mastery of weapons and allow everyone to deal lots of damage in combat (as is no doubt expected).

nonsi
2018-09-03, 01:30 AM
.
Very nice solution regarding XP awards.
Just one thing doesn't add up. Since the specifications go as far as party level +/- 6, granting no XP to characters with +3 levels above party average seems a bit harsh.

Zman
2018-09-03, 10:19 AM
i'd give a damage boost for using a magic weapon and then a second boost at 11th, both for all classes, with the other three expected boosts at E/M/L weapon levels. Once you add in a feat to allow trained weapon users to become Expert in one or more weapons (or even allow rangers/barbarians to become Master in some), that would heighten the fighter's mastery of weapons and allow everyone to deal lots of damage in combat (as is no doubt expected).

That isnít workable without a major overhaul of proficiency availability. Now Barbarians will have two fewer dice that Fighter. Just doesnít work. Even if we get barbarians to Master, they still lose out on a dice. The internal damage assumptions of the game are not setup for this kind of change. By level is easy and it just works.


.
Very nice solution regarding XP awards.
Just one thing doesn't add up. Since the specifications go as far as party level +/- 6, granting no XP to characters with +3 levels above party average seems a bit harsh.

Thanks. That is completely intentional. Three levels higher that the party average is huge, and virtually a non challenge. You could make it 1/10th or 10xp or something, but 0 works just fine most of the time. This is a party balancing mechanic, if the character who is over two levels ahead has to really miss out, so be it.

Itís a whole lite better than stock, make them all the same level.

Think of Lord of the Rings, Gandalf wasnít gaining XP in the Hobbit or Fellowship until he went solo against a Balrog, while the others were leveling up left and right. If a character is three levels over the average they just arenít meaningfully challenged by the low level characterís threat and it wouldnít take long till the lowest members catch up enough for them to all be earning xp.

Caelestion
2018-09-03, 12:09 PM
Doing it by level does then suggest that even a wizard or sorcerer can deal massive amounts of damage with any weapon, when previously they would have needed a weapon they most likely wouldn't have shelled out for.

Zman
2018-09-03, 05:02 PM
Doing it by level does then suggest that even a wizard or sorcerer can deal massive amounts of damage with any weapon, when previously they would have needed a weapon they most likely wouldn't have shelled out for.

Correct. So, you could build a gish Sorcerer or Wizard and deal level appropriate damage with the caveat of being merely trained and stuck to simple weapons. So, compared to a Fighter youíre by default begins +1-2 to hit, and if you didnít invest in a decent magical weapon you are behind conceivably another +1-5 to hit as well.

Trust me, this ruling doesnít take anything away from martials.

Actually, quite the opposite is true. Now a Fighter can use any backup weapon and deal level appropriate damage. What good was carrying javelins, is darts, or wearing a gauntlet, or having a shield boss, or carrying a Shortbow, if you needed to shell out coin to make them magic weapons. And of course you wouldnít have the coin to keep them at the highest available potency sod they be bad by comparison and youíd forgive them for you primary weapon anyway. Now, martials could conceivably end up with a Legendary +1 sword decked with potency runes and spend the rest of their gold on other stuff. Alternatively they could shell out go to snag that +4 or +5 upgrade too. Martials no longer are forced into spending the bulk of their go to upgrade their weapon to the highest potency ASAP or risk falling behind. Now, they have options, and that is good.

Now, the damage comes from the character regardless of the roll in their hand. Sure, some tools are vastly more powerful than others, but a character can at least deal level appropriate damage with anything. The high level fighter stranded without his gear can grab that poor quality rusty sword from that armored statue and fight his ass off. Heís be a legend with that longsword dealing 6d8+6 Damage. Sure, heíd really be feeling the -2 poor quality over his +5 Keen Greater Flaming Longsword, but at least heís be able to fight, even if he missed a lot. Compare that to stock where heíd still be a net -7 to hit, but would only deal 1d8+6 instead of level appropriate 6d8+6.