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GalacticAxekick
2018-08-12, 02:07 AM
I noticed some time ago that some of the Wizard's schools—Abjuration, Divination, Enchantment, Illusion—gain much more interesting features that other schools—Conjuration, Necromancy, Transmutation. I decided to start rewriting the school of Transmutation so that its features actually make transmutations more useful, rather than offering mediocre transmutation-themed benefits.

Partway through this project I also decided to start editing and expanding the list of transmutation spells to accommodate character concepts that 5e neglects (e.g. a Fullmetal Alchemist-like wizard who changes the shape and material for his environment; an Bender-like druid who wields the elements as weapons, tools and canvas alike; a Mystique-like sorcerer who uses transformations to disguise and empower herself, etc)

The results so far can be found right here (http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/rytkdHGKf). I'd love to hear your constructive criticisms.

Indigo Knight
2018-08-12, 06:50 AM
What, per se, is exactly in this project?

Because what I see in the link is the redistribution of spells (and maybe tinkering with few of the spells themselves). I don't really see how this is a change to transmutaion school at large.
I do support your attemp. And think that this change is sorely needed (and for summoning/conjuring as well as others). But there is simply nothing here.
Or I'm missing something.

GalacticAxekick
2018-08-12, 12:30 PM
You don't see the first page, where I overhauled the Wizard's Transmuter subclass?

Indigo Knight
2018-08-13, 03:44 AM
I saw that. And I found it very underwhelming for it's intended purposes.
What did it bring to the game?

GalacticAxekick
2018-08-13, 07:48 AM
It brings magic items, permanent transformations and adaptability to the transmuter's game.

Starting at 2nd level a transmuter can make spell effects last the entire day.
Defenses like Barkskin and Harden last long enough to compete with Mage Armour.
Buffs like Bless, Haste, and Polymorph last long enough to shape whole adventures instead of single encounters.
Nerfs like Anchor/Levitate, Heat Metal and Polymorph can make enemies harmless for a whole day.
Effects like Move Earth, can be cast once, then treated as cantrips to produce walls, staircases, doors, pits, and tunnels at will.

Starting at 6th level you can change the effects of a transmutation spell without spending additional slots. Spells like Alter Self, Enhance Ability and Polymorph give you the freedom to be whatever you need to be. Spells like Construct and Transubstantiation give you the power to have whatever you need to have.

Starting at 10th level, you don't need to concentrate on transmutations that effect objects. Magic and Elemental Weapons are your new standard, not to mention candidates for Major Alchemy.

Also starting at 10th level, your allies can concentrate on the spells you cast on them. You can Enlarge the Fighter AND Reduce the Rogue AND Levitate the Cleric AND Polymorph yourself.

Starting at 14th level, you and any creatures concentrating on your spells can no longer have your concentration broken. Major Alchemy becomes an attractive option for your favourite buffs or even to nerf an important enemy.

Derpaligtr
2018-08-13, 09:22 AM
Does the class features mean to work with transmutation spells that aren't concentration or ones that are? Most transmutation spells need concentration. If your rework breaks the concentration rules... Wow this is powerful. Way too powerful. If it doesn't... It's still abusable but not usable on a lot of spells.

Major alchemy is way too powerful. You damn right I would pay 100 gp to have a permanent JUMP on my Fighter or Monk.

Step of the Wind doubles my jump and then JUMP triples it... Even without the Monk I would grab the Athlete feat (running start = always on) as a Fighter and pay for JUMP to be permanent...

Yeah, I would get into the position where I could move + dash and just jump really long distances that would make my DM pull their hair out. Seriously... This is really really really abusable (just ask anyone playing Magic of Incarnum in 3e how bald their DMs are).

Also, permanent SLOW on a creature? For 900 GP? Sure! Wait, does this feature get around saving throws? Or would the saving throws just suppress the spell for a little bit?

GalacticAxekick
2018-08-13, 09:30 AM
Does the class features mean to work with transmutation spells that aren't concentration or ones that are? Most transmutation spells need concentration. If your rework breaks the concentration rules... Wow this is powerful. Way too powerful. If it doesn't... It's still abusable but not usable on a lot of spells.The Minor and Major Alchemy features work with transmutation spells that aren't concentration AND ones that are. The features don't remove the need to concentrate, but increase the length of time you can.

Finishing Touch actually removes the need for you to concentrate if you target an object or an ally. The ally can concentrate on your behalf.

Masterpiece makes your concentration (or your ally's concentration) on your transmutation spells unbreakable, but you can still only concentrate on one effect at a time.


Major alchemy is way too powerful. You damn right I would pay 100 gp to have a permanent JUMP on my Fighter or Monk.

Step of the Wind doubles my jump and then JUMP triples it... Even without the Monk I would grab the Athlete feat (running start = always on) as a Fighter and pay for JUMP to be permanent...

Yeah, I would get into the position where I could move + dash and just jump really long distances that would make my DM pull their hair out. Seriously... This is really really really abusable (just ask anyone playing Magic of Incarnum in 3e how bald their DMs are).Jumping consumes movement, just like running. Even if the Athlete feat gives you a constant "running start" and the Jump spell gives you a running jump distance of 60 ft and running jump height of 24 ft, your fighter's speed is 30. You'll be leaping from rooftop to rooftop, backflipping over your enemies, dangling from chandeliers and generally loving life, but that 60 ft leap isn't happening without a dash. I domt think that's overpowered.


Also, permanent SLOW on a creature? For 900 GP? Sure! Wait, does this feature get around saving throws? Or would the saving throws just suppress the spell for a little bit?The feature only affects duration. You still need to concentrate on the spell, and successful saves can still end it.

Derpaligtr
2018-08-13, 09:53 AM
The Minor and Major Alchemy features don't remove the need to concentrate on spells.

You know jumping consumes movement right? You can't jump a distance greater than your speed, which makes permanent Jump useful but far from game-breaking, even in combination with Step of the Wind.

The feature only affects duration. You still need to concentrate on the spell, and successful saves can still end it.

If concentration is still an issue, it's a meh feature that needs to be replaced. (if it did replace the need for concentration it would have been an overpowered feature that needs to be replaced).
===
Yeah, I'm aware of how jumping works, thanks for being condescending. You know what jumping ignores? A lot of difficult terrain, gaps, height issues, and you can bypass pressure traps.

Athlete + Movement + Dash (bonus action if rogue or monk, though monk doubles their jump distance) = 60+ feet of movement to work with. If I can normally jump 16', that's 48' of jumping in a straight line that I can do at will. Also, for the high jump it's something like 3 + Str Mod? 6 * 3 = 18'. I can reach up 1.5 * my character height (say average 6') so let's round up to 20'. For the price of 100 GP I get a poor man's flight... Let's add another 100 GP and put in feather fall for good measure.

I'm all for a Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon game... But a lot of DM are not and this homebrew won't fly (heh) in their games.

===

If concentration/saves is still an issue... I would never waste money on spells that have concentration or saving throws. I'm a wizard, I can just get those spell slots back during a short rest so I might as well use them (arcane recovery).

GalacticAxekick
2018-08-13, 10:12 AM
If concentration is still an issue, it's a meh feature that needs to be replaced. (if it did replace the need for concentration it would have been an overpowered feature that needs to be replaced).And if concentration becomes less of an issue as you gain levels?


Yeah, I'm aware of how jumping works, thanks for being condescending. You know what jumping ignores? A lot of difficult terrain, gaps, height issues, and you can bypass pressure traps.

[...]

I'm all for a Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon game... But a lot of DM are not and this homebrew won't fly (heh) in their games.
I'm sorry to have insulted you. I wasn't sure you understood the jumping rules because, in my opinion, they make a permanent Jump far from overpowered.

Aarakocra, Winged Aasimar, and Winged Tieflings (controversial but overall balanced races) get flight at 1st Level, so I don't think spending 100gp to jump over terrain, gaps and traps is too much.


If concentration/saves is still an issue... I would never waste money on spells that have concentration or saving throws. I'm a wizard, I can just get those spell slots back during a short rest so I might as well use them (arcane recovery).Exactly. At early levels it's a tool to make non-concentration spells last. The point of Finishing Touch and Masterpiece is to make concentration less and less of an issue as you gain levels. By 10th level, transmutations you cast on objects never require concentration. By 14th, the concentration on transmutations you cast on creatures cant be broken.

Vogie
2018-08-13, 02:19 PM
Things that are permanent are going to be high level - all of the spells in 5e that are made permanent, IIRC, are done so by casting the same spell on the same thing every day for a year. The fact that you're talking about it at level 2, and give both Minor AND Major Alchemy at the same level, is really, really broken. And making a spell permanent that has a concentration requirement is a bit odd as well - the ones that come to mind, Teleportation Circle & Private Sanctum, don't have a concentration requirement... most likely precisely for that reason.

I'm not entirely certain what the 6th level feature does. "change the nature of the transmutation" doesn't really make sense. Did you mean to make something that allows you to switch modes on concentration spells a la Alter self? If so, you could do something like:

"While concentrating on a transmutation spell that has multiple options, while the spell lasts, you can end one option as a bonus action to gain the benefits of a different one".

That'd be pretty cool for something like Enhance ability, elemental weapon, and the handful of other spells with options... that don't already have that feature built in. Which many of them do, from the looks of it.

Honestly, I like what you're trying to do... however, the execution comes off more like a great idea for a complicated fix for the sorcerer's fairly lacking Extended spell metamagic rather than a Transmutation wizard. Because it doesn't really do any transmuting as a wizard, it just plays with transmutation spells. A "Transmutation Savant" or "Alchemical Experiment" Sorcerer Bloodline that expands on Extended Spell would be pretty sweet.


I'm all for a Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon game... But a lot of DM are not and this homebrew won't fly (heh) in their games.

Then they better not read the Eagle Totem Barbarian or the Monk class, because they are in for a shock! Theatrical Wushu is all over the place!

Derpaligtr
2018-08-13, 02:26 PM
Then they better not read the Eagle Totem Barbarian or the Monk class, because they are in for a shock! Theatrical Wushu is all over the place!

Wait, are you saying you can't see the different between those features and giving everyone permanent Jump + permanent Feather Fall for 200 gp a pop?

Eagle needs rage and monk needs ki (step of the wind) to get things going... It's not something that is at-will and completely out of place for the game. Even the birdperson race was insta banned from AL for a reason.

GalacticAxekick
2018-08-13, 03:36 PM
Things that are permanent are going to be high level - all of the spells in 5e that are made permanent, IIRC, are done so by casting the same spell on the same thing every day for a year. The fact that you're talking about it at level 2, and give both Minor AND Major Alchemy at the same level, is really, really broken. In my mind Major Alchemy is no more broken than buying powerful equipment (minus the risk of it being stolen, plus the risk of having it dispelled). But I can push Major Alchemy to a higher level if it's seriously broken.


And making a spell permanent that has a concentration requirement is a bit odd as well - the ones that come to mind, Teleportation Circle & Private Sanctum, don't have a concentration requirement... most likely precisely for that reason. Making a concentration spell permanent is odd. I wouldn't recommend any player to do so until they gain the Finishing Touch or Masterpiece.

I could explicitly prohibit using Major Alchemy on concentration spells, for clarity's sake, until the Finishing Touch and Masterpiece features make it viable.


I'm not entirely certain what the 6th level feature does. "change the nature of the transmutation" doesn't really make sense. Did you mean to make something that allows you to switch modes on concentration spells a la Alter self? Yes. I used the Malleable Illusions feature as a basis for this one. "Starting at 6th level, when you cast an illusion spell that has a duration of 1 minute or longer, you can use your action to change the nature of that illusion (using the spell's normal parameters for the illusion), provided that you can see the illusion." I trust the PHB's language is clear enough for most readers.


That'd be pretty cool for something like Enhance ability, elemental weapon, and the handful of other spells with options... that don't already have that feature built in. Which many of them do, from the looks of it. Polymorph, Hex and Bestow Curse stand out to me as spells that would benefit. The paired spells, such as Enlarge/Reduce, could get interesting too. But I agree the options for spells benefiting from this feature are narrow.


Honestly, I like what you're trying to do... however, the execution comes off more like a great idea for a complicated fix for the sorcerer's fairly lacking Extended spell metamagic rather than a Transmutation wizard. Because it doesn't really do any transmuting as a wizard, it just plays with transmutation spells. A "Transmutation Savant" or "Alchemical Experiment" Sorcerer Bloodline that expands on Extended Spell would be pretty sweet. I disagree for thematic reasons. No sorcerer should be able to transmute more effectively that a wizard who specializes in that school.

On the mechanical side, however, I don'twant the subclass to he too complex for players to approach. Is there any way I could simplify it while allowing transmuter's to prologue spells, and to make them permanent? Or alternatively, is there any other way transmuter's could be especially good at transmutation spells (as opposed to gaining transmutation-themed features, as they do in the PHB)?

Vogie
2018-08-13, 08:21 PM
In my mind Major Alchemy is no more broken than buying powerful equipment (minus the risk of it being stolen, plus the risk of having it dispelled). But I can push Major Alchemy to a higher level if it's seriously broken.

Making a concentration spell permanent is odd. I wouldn't recommend any player to do so until they gain the Finishing Touch or Masterpiece.

I could explicitly prohibit using Major Alchemy on concentration spells, for clarity's sake, until the Finishing Touch and Masterpiece features make it viable.

Yes. I used the Malleable Illusions feature as a basis for this one. "Starting at 6th level, when you cast an illusion spell that has a duration of 1 minute or longer, you can use your action to change the nature of that illusion (using the spell's normal parameters for the illusion), provided that you can see the illusion." I trust the PHB's language is clear enough for most readers.

Polymorph, Hex and Bestow Curse stand out to me as spells that would benefit. The paired spells, such as Enlarge/Reduce, could get interesting too. But I agree the options for spells benefiting from this feature are narrow.

I disagree for thematic reasons. No sorcerer should be able to transmute more effectively that a wizard who specializes in that school.

On the mechanical side, however, I don'twant the subclass to he too complex for players to approach. Is there any way I could simplify it while allowing transmuter's to prologue spells, and to make them permanent? Or alternatively, is there any other way transmuter's could be especially good at transmutation spells (as opposed to gaining transmutation-themed features, as they do in the PHB)?

Ah, I had forgotten about the Illusionist wizard. I could never fully grok that subclass, so that's on me.

The best thing to do is to make things as eloquent as possible, and add levers to make it easier to balance.

For Example, Major Alchemy & Work In Progress could be mixed with the existing Transmuter's Stone feature, so the Transmuter's stone that could have any Transmutation spell imprinted on it, rather than just those four. The Transmuter only gets one, so they have a the choice to make a Feather Fall Stone, or Jump stone, Disguise self, et cetera.

Then, once you get to level 14, Your masterpiece is a second Transmuter's stone that holds a single spell, and can also concentrate on it. This has actually already been released by wizards - their Technomancy UA release for the Modern Masters was a Wizard subclass that allows your Chained Device (a tablet that acts as a spellbook) with the caveat that it "must be held or worn by you to maintain this effect". So you could have a Feather Fall stone AND a Polymorph stone.

Another option is to just figure out a way to port the Permanency spell from 3.5e (http://archivesofnethys.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Permanency)

GalacticAxekick
2018-08-13, 11:51 PM
For Example, Major Alchemy & Work In Progress could be mixed with the existing Transmuter's Stone feature, so the Transmuter's stone that could have any Transmutation spell imprinted on it, rather than just those four. The Transmuter only gets one, so they have a the choice to make a Feather Fall Stone, or Jump stone, Disguise self, et cetera.

Then, once you get to level 14, Your masterpiece is a second Transmuter's stone that holds a single spell, and can also concentrate on it. This has actually already been released by wizards - their Technomancy UA release for the Modern Masters was a Wizard subclass that allows your Chained Device (a tablet that acts as a spellbook) with the caveat that it "must be held or worn by you to maintain this effect". So you could have a Feather Fall stone AND a Polymorph stone. Ideally, I'd like a transmuter with time and resources to uphold the setting: to make a guild's worth of magic items, legions of animated constructs, blessings for whole communities and curses for a lifetime of enemies. Using the stone to support one spell at a time doesn't accomplish this, unless I put a price of making additional stones. This is how I thought up Major Alchemy in the first place.

I understand that this gives the transmuter a lot of potential. But that's kinda the point. Money (or labour) can earn a Fighter quality weapons, armour, mounts, and other boons that make her more powerful than Fighters of the same level. This is the Transmuter's +3 longsword, +3 plate, Pegasus, etc. Maybe I've made it too affordable, but I'd rather raise the cost than remove it entirely.


Another option is to just figure out a way to port the Permanency spell from 3.5e (http://archivesofnethys.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Permanency)I'll give this a look and get back to you! Thanks for your opinions so far!

EDIT: The Permanency spell seems fundamentally the same as the Major Alchemy feature, with a few key differences:
As a spell, rather than a class feature, any Wizard could learn it. This means Evocateurs, Illusionists, Necromancers, anyone who decides to learn the spell can make magic items, constructs, permanent blessings and permanent curses. Very little would make transmuters unique and worthwhile.
Because the spell isn't limited to transmutation, it introduces a lot of options for Abjurers, Conjurers, Diviners and Necromancers. This is very fun, but it demands a lot of screening to prevent abuse.
Because the spell only works on a specific list of spells, a lot of those fun options (and the abuse that comes with them) are out.
The prices are generally higher than the prices I set.

With #1 in mind, I'd like to keep Major Alchemy a feature rather than a spell. With #2 in mind, however, I'd like to introduce similar features to the relatively weak schools of Conjuration and Necromancy. I don't want the restriction that comes with #3, so I'm willing to pre-screen all Transmutation (and possible Conjuration/Necromancy) spells for abuse. Oof. And finally, I'll consider raising the prices in line with #4.

Vogie
2018-08-14, 08:23 AM
Ideally, I'd like a transmuter with time and resources to uphold the setting: to make a guild's worth of magic items, legions of animated constructs, blessings for whole communities and curses for a lifetime of enemies. Using the stone to support one spell at a time doesn't accomplish this, unless I put a price of making additional stones. This is how I thought up Major Alchemy in the first place.

I understand that this gives the transmuter a lot of potential. But that's kinda the point. Money (or labour) can earn a Fighter quality weapons, armour, mounts, and other boons that make her more powerful than Fighters of the same level. This is the Transmuter's +3 longsword, +3 plate, Pegasus, etc. Maybe I've made it too affordable, but I'd rather raise the cost than remove it entirely.

Correct. 5e was balanced around artifacts & equipment of that level being incredibly rare, and having the entire economy broken by an easily-dippable 2nd level feature. No one gets a +3 longsword & at level 2.


The Permanency spell seems fundamentally the same as the Major Alchemy feature, with a few key differences:
As a spell, rather than a class feature, any Wizard could learn it. This means Evocateurs, Illusionists, Necromancers, anyone who decides to learn the spell can make magic items, constructs, permanent blessings and permanent curses. Very little would make transmuters unique and worthwhile.
Because the spell isn't limited to transmutation, it introduces a lot of options for Abjurers, Conjurers, Diviners and Necromancers. This is very fun, but it demands a lot of screening to prevent abuse.
Because the spell only works on a specific list of spells, a lot of those fun options (and the abuse that comes with them) are out.
The prices are generally higher than the prices I set.


Well, yeah... That's why I suggested it.
You could either make a class feature ("At Level 14, you gain the ability to make certain spells permanent" with a list) or make the spell only available to that subclass.

And you can't complain about it including Conjuration, divination and necromancy spells - you did the same thing. The difference is you grabbed a bunch of non-transmutation spells and said "these are transmutation now!" on the second page. That being said, you probably already have an idea on which you actually *want* to have available for permanency.

Another option I hadn't considered before is to have a different 14th level feature that's more elemental transmute-y, then actually replace the Spell Mastery and Signature Spell class features with your Major Alchemy/Work in Progress features. Instead of locking it into any spell of a certain level, you give the Transmutation wizard the ability to make their transmutation spells at-will or permanent.

GalacticAxekick
2018-08-14, 12:24 PM
Correct. 5e was balanced around artifacts & equipment of that level being incredibly rare, and having the entire economy broken by an easily-dippable 2nd level feature. No one gets a +3 longsword & at level 2.I'm not offering +3 longswords at level 2. I'm offering +3 longswords at level 15. That's the earliest you can cast 8th level spells (which is the spell level at which Magic Weapon offers a +3 bonus).

Sure, this gives players access to what the DMV calls a very rare magic item. But it costs 6400gp of very rare materials. The setting's economy should be fine.

Even from the perspective of game balance, a player with 6400gp to spend on a +3 weapon is a player with 6400gp to spend on potions, scrolls, poisons, mounts, ships, skill/tool/language training, hirelings, informants, socio-politucal influence. The value exists either way. Major Alchemy just gives it a new shape.

And finally, while 5e neither makes magic items necessary or easily available, it does assign them gp values, and it does describe which levels they can reasonably be acquired at. A very rare item such as a +3 weapon cam be reasonably acquired after 11th level, and has a value between 5000 and 50 000gp.


And you can't complain about it including Conjuration, divination and necromancy spells - you did the same thing. The difference is you grabbed a bunch of non-transmutation spells and said "these are transmutation now!" on the second page. That being said, you probably already have an idea on which you actually *want* to have available for permanency. I didn't complain about the Permanency effect including spells from other schools. I said it was fun and that I'd like to the same thing in the future.

I worried that if one Permanency feature was available to all wizards, non-transmuters encroach on transmuters' niche: permanent magic items, transformations and constructs. To prevent this, I'd want to break the feature up into school-specific Permanencies.

I moved spells between schools for basically the same reason: to stop schools from encroaching on one another. I gave telepathy related "transmutations" to the Diviners that should have them. I gave summoning and plane-shifting "transmutations" to the Conjurers that should have them. And I took transformative spells from the schools that shouldn't have had them in the first place.


Another option I hadn't considered before is to have a different 14th level feature that's more elemental transmute-y, then actually replace the Spell Mastery and Signature Spell class features with your Major Alchemy/Work in Progress features. Instead of locking it into any spell of a certain level, you give the Transmutation wizard the ability to make their transmutation spells at-will or permanent.I'll give this some consideration! It's an interesting idea, though I'm concerned it'll fall short the same way the transmuter's stone does: making one or two effects permanent, and only at a very high level.

Indigo Knight
2018-08-19, 04:19 AM
Honestly, I like what you're trying to do... however, the execution comes off more like a great idea for a complicated fix for the sorcerer's fairly lacking Extended spell metamagic rather than a Transmutation wizard. Because it doesn't really do any transmuting as a wizard, it just plays with transmutation spells. A "Transmutation Savant" or "Alchemical Experiment" Sorcerer Bloodline that expands on Extended Spell would be pretty sweet.

I second that.


What I thought you're making is an underline math-like formula for transmuters which streamline the boons and negatives that they can afflict on characters. Otherwise, as said, I see this as a non-featy feat of Extended Heightened #SpellName#.
Take note that I do not intend to belittle what you made. Just... underwhelming for me, that s'all

GalacticAxekick
2018-08-19, 02:19 PM
I don't understand what you mean by "underying math-like formula" or "streamline the boons and negatives that transmuters can afflict on characters".

Do you mean a sort of sliding scale of spell effect? Such that spells are less discrete ("Enlarge doubles your size") and more continuous ("Enlarge increases your size category by as little or as much as the caster wants, to a maximum of double your original size")?

Indigo Knight
2018-08-21, 08:23 AM
Take, for example, the following two spells:
Cat's Grace & Animalistic Power

They both infer a bonus to ability score of the target.
But they're not the same.
In this scenario, the spells I picked are the same level. But it doesn't have to.
The point is - at the end of the line there are many many spells which are a slight variation from others. But never, was this differentiation been given a number.

I simply assumed that you did this thing. That you gave number to sliding scale(s) between the spells.
It's my mistake. My imagination got the better of me.

GalacticAxekick
2018-08-21, 10:01 AM
Take, for example, the following two spells:
Cat's Grace & Animalistic Power

They both infer a bonus to ability score of the target.
But they're not the same.
In this scenario, the spells I picked are the same level. But it doesn't have to.
The point is - at the end of the line there are many many spells which are a slight variation from others. But never, was this differentiation been given a number.

I simply assumed that you did this thing. That you gave number to sliding scale(s) between the spells.
It's my mistake. My imagination got the better of me.What would giving a number accomplish, from a mechanical perspective? As you describe it, it's only a way of classifying spells.

Would the transmuter gain the ability to slide a spell along the scale to mimic spells she doesn't have in her book? Or to slide between known spells on the scake without using slots? I'm open to the concept you have in mind, but I don't quite grasp it yet.