To XP or not to XP?

[Fishyninja]

Hello All.

Right quick backstory; first time DM running Tales of the Yawning Portal as a full campaign. Basically lots of dungeon crawls with moderate RP bits between dungeons.

Anyway I am using the XP system for levelling as I found this was easier to do first time round....However I am now concerned that if they get into combat during the RP periods between dungeons I am going to have to reward XP to them and then they are going to be at a higher level than the dungeon recommends.

I know I can alter enemies and more to encounters within the dungeons. I have to do that now as I have 6 players in the group however I don't want to keep doing that.

So is it acceptable to not award XP for RP stuff in an XP driven game?

[Trask]

If all you want to do you run the Yawning Portal adventures straight out of the book, that should be clear from the start. Just tell your players that this campaign is going to be all about these adventures, and the RP in between is just a break. If they get into a bar fight or something it doesnt count. The only XP to be gained is from the dungeon.

[Expected]

Personally, I prefer combat to role-play. As long as I get experience from slaying enemies and plenty of opportunities to do so, it wouldn't bother me if I wasn't awarded experience for role-play. This is just my opinion, though, and it is biased because the DM for the campaign that I played in almost completely ignored combat.

[Kadesh]

Just do Milestone XP. It's so much easier to manage. Rewards for RP don't need to be solely XP based.

[DeTess]

Why do you not want to do milestone XP? You're worried that people will not be the correct level for the various dungeons, and using milestone XP you can just fiat that without worrying or limiting what the players do in between dungeons.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

The maximum XP a player in my game got for RP was 50.

Just give them to a small amount of xp for RP.

[Asmotherion]

Haven't played the adventure myself. Are there other ways to earn XP? Is there a way to avoid combat all together? Can you manage to make combat rewarding and not feel like a nuissance all together?

Perhaps go for Milestones, but at the same time find a way to make combat interesting and rewarding.

Taking out the XP makes people less enthousiastic about risking their character's life. It's a Loose-Loose situation for them as soon as the combat starts. Find a way to compensate that.

[Aett_Thorn]

I really am fond of the milestone XP system. Not only does it allow you to adjust the pace of leveling to what your adventure needs, but I also feel like it can reward creativity and avoiding fights if the party wants.

[Tanarii]

Leveling without XP and Milestone XP are different things in 5e. 5e Milestone XP still involved XP. Meanwhile the community usage 'milestone' usually means what 5e calls "Leveling Without XP". Worth pointing out in any discussion in 5e involving the term.

I've never seen a game that used XP in any edition of D&D where it was faster than a DM doing leveling without XP. It's not inherent to the 5e rule that Leveling without XP or Milestone XP will be faster, but so far based on the large majority of posts I've seen where people discussed their leveling rates, and of course the 5e adventures (Storm Kings) and new AL season rules, it seems that in practice awarding XP is slower. Even if you award it at an advanced rate based on encounter difficulty, instead of merely the sum of the XP from creature CRs.

As far as not awarding XP for 'RP', non-combat encounters should award based on the DMG difficulty guidelines. Since those are based on likely loss of resources, it's very rare for non-combat encounters to exceed Easy.

[ad_hoc]

The default is to not gain XP during downtime. It should only take 10 minutes or so anyway.

Side note, you will need to significantly up the difficulty. 6 players are about twice as strong as 4.

[username1]

I wouldn't give xp for stuff like that, but I would reward RP differently. Give them access to new shops, side quests, items, and other things for good role play. Let it help your adventure, not cause problems.

[mephnick]

RPGs give XP for the things they want the players to focus on. That's its whole value as a reward system. Look at any given RPG and see what it rewards players for and you'll see what the focus of the game is supposed to be. In other games you get XP for solving problems and exploring relationships. In D&D, traditionally you get XP for killing monsters, avoiding traps and stealing loot. That should tell you what the game is about. However, change the reward structure and you change the focus of the game. If you want to reward deep character interaction, reward it. If you don't care about that, don't.

[Rusvul]

Personally, I prefer XP in my games, as a player or as a DM. I played in a game for a long time with a DM who didn't use XP... instead, we leveled up whenever we reached a story goal. This happened rather infrequently, though, and we had no way of knowing how close we were to leveling up. I think using XP gives the players some indication of where they are, and being given XP specifically for a unique or clever solution is a good way to reward creative thinking, IMO.

I do think there's value in reaching story milestones, though, so I give my players fairly generous amounts of XP when they complete story goals.

[Foxydono]

Personally, I prefer XP in my games, as a player or as a DM. I played in a game for a long time with a DM who didn't use XP... instead, we leveled up whenever we reached a story goal. This happened rather infrequently, though, and we had no way of knowing how close we were to leveling up. I think using XP gives the players some indication of where they are, and being given XP specifically for a unique or clever solution is a good way to reward creative thinking, IMO.

I do think there's value in reaching story milestones, though, so I give my players fairly generous amounts of XP when they complete story goals.
I second this opinion.

[ciarannihill]

I do think there's value in reaching story milestones, though, so I give my players fairly generous amounts of XP when they complete story goals.

This is an interesting middle-ground, essentially grant non-combat XP boons to players/characters when it makes sense to do so.


I personally find that with new players milestone works better -- they're learning enough mechanics and having to track XP on top is a little more book-keeping than many would like to do. Party XP is another way I've seen people do it, have the more experienced party members track a total XP so the newer players can focus on the other mechanics.

Having said that, it varies wildly from group to group -- if you have a group where some players can't play as consistently XP can be a way to reward players who attend regularly, but some might view it as punishing your other players. It's very much a "what works best for your table" thing, although I feel like there are pros and cons to both and most players are happy to play either regardless, even if they have a preference.

[Fishyninja]

Why do you not want to do milestone XP? You're worried that people will not be the correct level for the various dungeons, and using milestone XP you can just fiat that without worrying or limiting what the players do in between dungeons.

Long story short, first time DMing and XP seemed easier at the time.


The maximum XP a player in my game got for RP was 50.

Just give them to a small amount of xp for RP.

Not a bad idea!


The default is to not gain XP during downtime. It should only take 10 minutes or so anyway.

Side note, you will need to significantly up the difficulty. 6 players are about twice as strong as 4.

Aye I noted that in the first couple of battles and had to adjust all future encounters.


I wouldn't give xp for stuff like that, but I would reward RP differently. Give them access to new shops, side quests, items, and other things for good role play. Let it help your adventure, not cause problems.

Already on that, they have some unique shops and the potential to get some custom magic items. I also have some little side quests for them potentially.

Wow thank you all! Some really good thoughts here.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

If you want an easy way to adjust encounters just make a file or cards of enemies(I know there are cards for 3.5e, I don't know where to look for 5e. You may need to make them).

Sort them by CR and build an encountrer on the spot.

I learned from my players in the game I DMed to never plan stuff, only ideas and personality(in case of NPCs).

[ATHATH]

Taking out the XP makes people less enthousiastic about risking their character's life. It's a Loose-Loose situation for them as soon as the combat starts. Find a way to compensate that.
Then again, maybe you WANT to make combat a thing to be avoided, a la Shadowrun.

[Knaight]

Then again, maybe you WANT to make combat a thing to be avoided, a la Shadowrun.

Plus if the combat actually furthers their goals directly (as opposed to just generating XP) it introduces an actual incentive to have that particular fight. That means it's no longer lose-lose, and also has the sensible effect of mostly limiting fights to those that at least one side actually wants to pick, though there's still plenty of room for situations to conspire to cause fights nobody really wants to be in.

[Kadesh]

Perhaps go for Milestones, but at the same time find a way to make combat interesting and rewarding.

Taking out the XP makes people less enthousiastic about risking their character's life. It's a Loose-Loose situation for them as soon as the combat starts. Find a way to compensate that.
Making Combat Interesting and rewarding doesn't mean 'i only need 50XP to level, i've got 5 Villagers here I can randomly slaughter to get that XP'.

Also, Milestone Levelling works better in a Combat as War game anyway, so, ye, Combat should be avoided. You level when you achieve objectives, not by killing everything you think you can do so.

If you are playing DnD to get random level bumps and fight meaningless monsters, I can't help but think there are much better and quicker ways and media than pen and paper RPG's.

[Tanarii]

Taking out the XP makes people less enthousiastic about risking their character's life. It's a Loose-Loose situation for them as soon as the combat starts. Find a way to compensate that.

Then again, maybe you WANT to make combat a thing to be avoided, a la Shadowrun.
Or a la oD&D, B/X D&D, AD&D or BECMI D&D. When XP for GP was there so the primary purpose was to get rich with as little fighting as possible, and raise huge armies to conquer the world. If you had to fight, the goal was to get the filthy lucre they were guarding, not risk your life pointlessly.

Not that I or anyone else I knew actually played it that way at the time. I had to go back and play BECMI in the last decade to get that playing experience. :smallamused:

[KorvinStarmast]

Personally, I prefer XP in my games, as a player or as a DM. I played in a game for a long time with a DM who didn't use XP... instead, we leveled up whenever we reached a story goal. This happened rather infrequently, though, and we had no way of knowing how close we were to leveling up. I think using XP gives the players some indication of where they are, and being given XP specifically for a unique or clever solution is a good way to reward creative thinking, IMO.

I do think there's value in reaching story milestones, though, so I give my players fairly generous amounts of XP when they complete story goals. Yeah, this, since D&D 5e played on a tabletop isn't a computer game. The point mephnick made about "incentivize the behavior that your want out of your players with XP" is sound basic advice.

[Tanarii]

Yeah, the nice thing about XP for specific things is the players know what those things are.

Which is why I've never liked "XP for RP". It's XP for DM fiat. Or as Belkar put it, spin a sob story and get free XP. Suckers!

XP for "story goals" or "Milestones" is fine from that perspective. It really means a tangible reward for completing specific in-game goals in a linear/written adventure. Works fine for those. Not so good in a sandbox with different players & characters at the table each session.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Guys, from what I remember you don't need to kill the enemy but to defeat it.

You can convince the bandit leader to work under you and to give the merchant supplies to you so you will return it instead of killing the bandit for the supplies and get the same XP.

[Tanarii]

Technically true. But any good murderhero knows not to leave bad guys alive. The DM will always use the against you later on as a 'plot twist'.

I cant decide if this needs blue text so leavig as is ;)

[Knaight]

Technically true. But any good murderhero knows not to leave bad guys alive. The DM will always use the against you later on as a 'plot twist'.

I cant decide if this needs blue text so leavig as is ;)

On the other hand, if you leave on good terms they dilute the ally pool, so that when the DM decides to kill a trusted ally it's more likely to be one you don't actually care about.

The same applies to blue text here. The color this should be read in depends on which DM.