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Shmeebly
2018-08-13, 04:12 PM
I've always disliked how a Sorcerer can somehow have fewer spells known/prepared than a half caster (Paladin, level 20 +5 CHA + oath spells), an equal amount of spells to a level 5 Cleric (level 5 +5 WIS + 6 domain spells) and barely more than a third caster (Eldritch Knight). I also dislike how their level 20 capstone ability is so terrible and how they only get a maximum of half of their class's key abilities. So I tried to think of some reworks/fixes for them, but I'm not entirely sure how balanced they are.
They are as follows:
1) Move their level 20 ability to level 5 (and maybe make it once per long rest as well?), this allows for them to use their sorcery points more freely and not be outclassed by a Wizard's Arcane Recovery. This would be either: four uses of their Metamagic abilities or two level one spell slots or one level two spell slots with one use of Metamagic
2) Make their new level 20 ability similar to the Warlock capstone: you can concentrate for one minute to regain all your expended sorcery points. Once per long rest
3) Make their spells known follow their level + one spell (at level 14 they would have 15, level 20 they would have 21)
OR make them a prepared class (level + mod prepared) that uses the Sorcerer spell list. The logic being they sit around for a bit (about one minute per spell level per spell, if you want it to be in line with other prepared classes' preparing time) thinking about what type of spells they want to prepare ("Hmm, I want to shoot lightning from my hands." Congrats, you have prepared Lightning Bolt)
4) Give another Metamagic known at level 8 and level 14
5) Maybe give a Ritual Spellcaster feature? Not sure how well that would mesh with the "innate magic" of a Sorcerer. The Sorcerer can choose to slowly and less exhaustingly draw upon their magic stores to cast a spell in exchange for free but have a longer casting time?
Again, I'm not sure how balanced (or lore-y) these suggestions are and I would like it if you would

Composer99
2018-08-13, 08:19 PM
I've always disliked how a Sorcerer can somehow have fewer spells known/prepared than a half caster (Paladin, level 20 +5 CHA + oath spells), an equal amount of spells to a level 5 Cleric (level 5 +5 WIS + 6 domain spells) and barely more than a third caster (Eldritch Knight). I also dislike how their level 20 capstone ability is so terrible and how they only get a maximum of half of their class's key abilities. So I tried to think of some reworks/fixes for them, but I'm not entirely sure how balanced they are.

I also find the sorcerer's limited spells known, along with its lacklustre capstone feature, to be very unsatisfactory. Let's see how some of this goes.


1) Move their level 20 ability to level 5 (and maybe make it once per long rest as well?), this allows for them to use their sorcery points more freely and not be outclassed by a Wizard's Arcane Recovery. This would be either: four uses of their Metamagic abilities or two level one spell slots or one level two spell slots with one use of Metamagic

I feel like making Sorcerous Restoration work the way Arcane Recovery does makes the sorcerer feel a bit less distinct from the wizard. Perhaps you could have it work the way it normally does, only the sorcerer recovers 2 sorcery points at 5th level after a short rest, increasing to 3 at 11th level and 4 at 17th level (matching the tiers of play)?


2) Make their new level 20 ability similar to the Warlock capstone: you can concentrate for one minute to regain all your expended sorcery points. Once per long rest

It's probably overpowered, but things are getting silly at that level, so it might not matter as much?


3) Make their spells known follow their level + one spell (at level 14 they would have 15, level 20 they would have 21)
OR make them a prepared class (level + mod prepared) that uses the Sorcerer spell list. The logic being they sit around for a bit (about one minute per spell level per spell, if you want it to be in line with other prepared classes' preparing time) thinking about what type of spells they want to prepare ("Hmm, I want to shoot lightning from my hands." Congrats, you have prepared Lightning Bolt)

Having spells known is the sorcerer's traditional 3e/3.5 bag, compared to the prepared-spell casters. (Strictly speaking, the sorcerer also has limited spells known in 4e, but it's not a distinguishing feature in that edition.)

As such, I'd be inclined to increase the sorcerer's spells known. My preference is to give them origin spells that function similarly to domain/oath spells, but a progression similar to what you have suggested works as well. I would suggest, however, that the progression be front-loaded: it wouldn't be unreasonable for sorcerers to learn 1 new spell every 2 levels from levels 15 to 20, or even from levels 11 to 20. It wouldn't be a weakness for them given that they can swap spells known.


4) Give another Metamagic known at level 8 and level 14

I'd be inclined to suggest 7th level instead of 8th, so the progression of metamagic isn't quite so compressed between 8th and 10th level.


5) Maybe give a Ritual Spellcaster feature? Not sure how well that would mesh with the "innate magic" of a Sorcerer. The Sorcerer can choose to slowly and less exhaustingly draw upon their magic stores to cast a spell in exchange for free but have a longer casting time?

Meh, let the wizards et al have their ritual magic. (If anything, ritual magic is probably a closer analogue to how book-learnin' magic would work in a world that didn't have the writings of Jack Vance to inspire RPG magic systems.) If a sorcerer really wants to cast ritual spells, there's always multiclassing or a feat.

Shmeebly
2018-08-13, 08:35 PM
"Perhaps you could have it work the way it normally does, only the sorcerer recovers 2 sorcery points at 5th level after a short rest, increasing to 3 at 11th level and 4 at 17th level (matching the tiers of play)?"

Yeah, this makes sense. Would you keep it to once per long rest or let them have equal to Charisma mod per long rest (realistically this would make it unlimited uses) or just make it have no long rest limit?

"It's probably overpowered, but things are getting silly at that level, so it might not matter as much?"

My thoughts exactly.

"As such, I'd be inclined to increase the sorcerer's spells known. My preference is to give them origin spells that function similarly to domain/oath spells, but a progression similar to what you have suggested works as well. I would suggest, however, that the progression be front-loaded: it wouldn't be unreasonable for sorcerers to learn 1 new spell every 2 levels from levels 15 to 20, or even from levels 11 to 20. It wouldn't be a weakness for them given that they can swap spells known."

I am sorry, but I am not sure what you mean? Allow them to learn an extra spell at 12, 14, 16, 18, 20 in addition to the one they would learn by my new leveling system (learn 2 at 12, 14,..., 20 and 1 at 13, 15,..., 19) to a total of 26 (if my math was correct).
Or am I misunderstanding?

"I'd be inclined to suggest 7th level instead of 8th, so the progression of metamagic isn't quite so compressed between 8th and 10th level."

Good point. I changed my original idea from level 15-->14 for this very reason but missed the this.

Thank you for your feedback.
Also I have no clue how to properly quote things on this site

Composer99
2018-08-13, 10:57 PM
Perhaps you could have it work the way it normally does, only the sorcerer recovers 2 sorcery points at 5th level after a short rest, increasing to 3 at 11th level and 4 at 17th level (matching the tiers of play)?

Yeah, this makes sense. Would you keep it to once per long rest or let them have equal to Charisma mod per long rest (realistically this would make it unlimited uses) or just make it have no long rest limit?

What I mean is, sorcerers regain sorcery points after finishing a short rest, just as they do at 20th level, only they regain fewer sorcery points at lower levels. Per the DMG guidelines, 2-3 short rests during an adventuring day are typical, so if we stick with the numbers I gave above, the sorcerer would typically recover 4 to 6 sorcery points from 5th to 10th level, 6 to 9 points at 11th to 16th level, and 8 to 12 points from 17th level on.




As such, I'd be inclined to increase the sorcerer's spells known. My preference is to give them origin spells that function similarly to domain/oath spells, but a progression similar to what you have suggested works as well. I would suggest, however, that the progression be front-loaded: it wouldn't be unreasonable for sorcerers to learn 1 new spell every 2 levels from levels 15 to 20, or even from levels 11 to 20. It wouldn't be a weakness for them given that they can swap spells known.

I am sorry, but I am not sure what you mean? Allow them to learn an extra spell at 12, 14, 16, 18, 20 in addition to the one they would learn by my new leveling system (learn 2 at 12, 14,..., 20 and 1 at 13, 15,..., 19) to a total of 26 (if my math was correct).
Or am I misunderstanding?

I'm suggesting two alternatives:

(1) The sorcerer gets the same number of base spells known as it does now, or thereabouts, but gets 2 extra spells known each of 1st through 5th level as "Sorcerous Origin" spells. This is functionally similar to clerics' Domain spells and paladins' Oath spells, except of course that they are learned instead of prepared. This gives sorcerers a minimum of 25 spells known (15 base, 10 Origin spells). If you think that's too many, they could get 1 Origin spell at each of 1st through 5th spell level, and you could add 1 or 2 spells to the base progression to tinker.

(2) The sorcerer gets more spells known in their base progression (as shown in the Sorcerer table), something more like this:



Level
Spells Known
Level
Spells Known


1st
3
11th
17


2nd
4
12th
17


3rd
6
13th
18


4th
7
14th
18


5th
9
15th
19


6th
10
16th
19


7th
12
17th
20


8th
13
18th
20


9th
15
19th
21


10th
16
20th
21




This has the same number of spells as you suggest as the ultimate goal (sorcerer level +1), but front-loads them, so that early on the sorcerer has plenty of low-level spell options, but can convert most of them (indeed, almost all of them) to higher-level spells over time.



Thank you for your feedback.

Also I have no clue how to properly quote things on this site

You're welcome! Also, it looks like you had started out well, but somehow lost the end-quote tag.

Shmeebly
2018-08-13, 11:12 PM
What I mean is, sorcerers regain sorcery points after finishing a short rest, just as they do at 20th level, only they regain fewer sorcery points at lower levels. Per the DMG guidelines, 2-3 short rests during an adventuring day are typical, so if we stick with the numbers I gave above, the sorcerer would typically recover 4 to 6 sorcery points from 5th to 10th level, 6 to 9 points at 11th to 16th level, and 8 to 12 points from 17th level on.

Yes, I understood that but I was unclear with my phrasing. However, you've answered my question anyway. I was saying should the Sorcerer only get the recovery (regaining the X-number of sorcery points on a short rest) a limited number of times per long rest. After thinking about it more I realized it would weaken the feature a great deal to only get it once per day and having a limit of 4~5 (CHA mod) would be pointless since you don't really get that many short rests in between long rests.


I'm suggesting two alternatives:

(1) The sorcerer gets the same number of base spells known as it does now, or thereabouts, but gets 2 extra spells known each of 1st through 5th level as "Sorcerous Origin" spells. This is functionally similar to clerics' Domain spells and paladins' Oath spells, except of course that they are learned instead of prepared. This gives sorcerers a minimum of 25 spells known (15 base, 10 Origin spells). If you think that's too many, they could get 1 Origin spell at each of 1st through 5th spell level, and you could add 1 or 2 spells to the base progression to tinker.

(2) The sorcerer gets more spells known in their base progression (as shown in the Sorcerer table), something more like this:

This has the same number of spells as you suggest as the ultimate goal (sorcerer level +1), but front-loads them, so that early on the sorcerer has plenty of low-level spell options, but can convert most of them (indeed, almost all of them) to higher-level spells over time.

Oooooh. I apologize, I am did not understand your meaning of front-loading them. Doing what you've suggested in the table is so that a higher-leveled Sorcerer could exchange their low level spells known to higher leveled spells, correct? This would allow the Sorcerer to have access to an array of spells appropriate to their level (high number of low level spells at low levels and a nice spread at higher levels).


You're welcome! Also, it looks like you had started out well, but somehow lost the end-quote tag.

Thank you for your feed back again! Also I think I've got the quote thing this time?
Maybe I got it in the edit.

Shmeebly
2018-08-13, 11:17 PM
As a side note this rework was a result of me going down the line and seeing what type of each class I would like to play (a Life Cleric, an Evocation Wizard, a Scout Rogue, etc.) and really liking the concept of a Sorcerer but really disliking their class in general.

Vogie
2018-08-14, 09:00 AM
1) Move their level 20 ability to level 5 (and maybe make it once per long rest as well?), this allows for them to use their sorcery points more freely and not be outclassed by a Wizard's Arcane Recovery. This would be either: four uses of their Metamagic abilities or two level one spell slots or one level two spell slots with one use of Metamagic

I would rather provide an extra low-level spell slot that refreshes on short rest... which they can then transform into sorc points if desired. Maybe one at 5 and another at 15. This is mechanically the same thing that they can do with a 1 and 2 level dip into warlock.


2) Make their new level 20 ability similar to the Warlock capstone: you can concentrate for one minute to regain all your expended sorcery points. Once per long rest

You don't want copypasta... it's already bad enough that it's a copy of the Monk Capstone. Maybe a metamagic-esque flow state that:

One minute per long rest where casting spells generates sorcery points instead of consumes them?
The ability to convert sorcery points with the values on the table instead of by spell level (converting a 5th level slot would give 7 points, rather than 5)



3) Make their spells known follow their level + one spell (at level 14 they would have 15, level 20 they would have 21)
OR make them a prepared class (level + mod prepared) that uses the Sorcerer spell list. The logic being they sit around for a bit (about one minute per spell level per spell, if you want it to be in line with other prepared classes' preparing time) thinking about what type of spells they want to prepare ("Hmm, I want to shoot lightning from my hands." Congrats, you have prepared Lightning Bolt)

Technically all casters in 5e are prepared spell classes. But you're right, having the same number of spells known as a half caster seems off. If they had something in the same vein as Warlock invocations that also expanded their spell list without knowing extra spells. More on this below.


4) Give another Metamagic known at level 8 and level 14

I also think 3, 7, 10, 14, & 17 is a better spread.


5) Maybe give a Ritual Spellcaster feature? Not sure how well that would mesh with the "innate magic" of a Sorcerer. The Sorcerer can choose to slowly and less exhaustingly draw upon their magic stores to cast a spell in exchange for free but have a longer casting time?
Again, I'm not sure how balanced (or lore-y) these suggestions are and I would like it if you would

I wouldn't want to do that, but I would like a reversal of the normal spell-upcasting paradigm
Perhaps the ability to spend one-to-two sorc points to make spells allowed to be cast one level LOWER than their existing level? That'd allow Sorcerers to use Sorc Points to cast 1st level spells as cantrips (not using spell slots at all).

If you're just wanting Sorcerers to be otherwise distinct from wizards, may increase the number of attune-able items?

Actually, a Spell Thief-esque ability that empowers your uses of Counterspell and Dispel Magic to "learn" a new spell by stealing it and adding it to your repertoire? Make it a metamagic for only that style of spell - Unravel Spell! - which gives the Sorcerer a certain flexibility to hunt down powerful spellcasters, rather than dusty tomes and scrolls.

Obviously we already have a class with something close to this - the Arcane Trickster's level 17 feature that can copy a spell for 8 hours, IIRC - but having it being permanently added to the sorc spell list is different enough that it'd still be worthy of capstone status

Shmeebly
2018-08-14, 01:12 PM
I would rather provide an extra low-level spell slot that refreshes on short rest... which they can then transform into sorc points if desired. Maybe one at 5 and another at 15. This is mechanically the same thing that they can do with a 1 and 2 level dip into warlock.

So like a one first level spell slot at level 1, two first level spell slots at 5, and either: two first level and one second, or three first level at level 15 (which sounds more appropriate to you?). This seems really similar to the Wizard's Arcane Recovery ability. Which I don't necessarily have that much of an issue with. The Wizard is a "normal" person that learned how to emulate how to be a Sorcerer so their arcane recovery is "better" (more spell slots recovered) but more limited (once per long rest).

Also in the case where the Sorcerer has not used any of these spell slots but still takes a short rest, give them the ability to immediately transmute these spell slots into sorcery points, maybe? This would be in line with the previously suggested 3~4 sorcery points regained per short rest at high levels. This would be so that they don't feel a weird compulsion to try and use first and second spell slots right before a short rest to not "waste" the ability?



One minute per long rest where casting spells generates sorcery points instead of consumes them?
The ability to convert sorcery points with the values on the table instead of by spell level (converting a 5th level slot would give 7 points, rather than 5)


Would the casting of spells renew sorcery points equal to if you had converted the spell slot? I.E. cast a first level spell and get one sorcery point back, cast a ninth level spell get nine back? So this would allow a Sorcerer to cast a second level spell with two (Empowered and one other) Metamagic for free (besides the expended spell slot)? This seems interesting (overpowered probably but it's a 20th level Capstone). It also gives a unique not copy-pasta'd (as you put it) Capstone (which all the class should have but not all do).


I wouldn't want to do that, but I would like a reversal of the normal spell-upcasting paradigm
Perhaps the ability to spend one-to-two sorc points to make spells allowed to be cast one level LOWER than their existing level? That'd allow Sorcerers to use Sorc Points to cast 1st level spells as cantrips (not using spell slots at all).

Wouldn't this be INCREDIBLY overpowered? Unless it has a limit of "Spell level first through fifth can be downcast." Otherwise you get effectively two ninth level spells, two eighth, two seventh, and three sixth.
Now if there was a level based thing: at 5th level you unlock the ability to down cast a spell of first through third level into a one level lower spell slot. At 15th level you gain the ability to use this ability on spells of level fourth through fifth level. At 18th level you can use this on sixth-seventh level. At 20th level you can use this on any level spell you desire. Or maybe make it peak at eighth level, cause, again two ninth level spells is intense. But then again this would be an additional level 20 ability which: few people get to, and when they do it usually marks the end of the game (since the fight with the BBEG levels them up to 20).


If you're just wanting Sorcerers to be otherwise distinct from wizards, may increase the number of attune-able items?

Similar to the Artificer class feature? But make it be a limit of 1 extra item. Have it say something like "Your innate magic allows you to have an easier time understanding the magics imbued into a magical item. When you unlock this ability at level 13 you gain the ability to attune to a fourth magic item."


Actually, a Spell Thief-esque ability that empowers your uses of Counterspell and Dispel Magic to "learn" a new spell by stealing it and adding it to your repertoire? Make it a metamagic for only that style of spell - Unravel Spell! - which gives the Sorcerer a certain flexibility to hunt down powerful spellcasters, rather than dusty tomes and scrolls.

I actually had the very same idea! But I wasn't sure how to implement it.

Would this ability cause the Sorcerer to know this spell IN ADDITION to their spells learned through leveling? Or would it cause the Sorcerer to have to replace one of their known spells? This would be a huge nerf in my opinion, but having them able to learn EVERY spell on the Sorcerer spell list is crazy, too! At which point they would be able to know (or prepare) more spells than ANY other class by far. Maybe limit them to learning a number of spells equal to either: their CHA mod (only 5) or 1/2 their Sorcerer level (10 tops). They could then replace these counter-learned spells with another counter-learned spell.

How often could the Sorcerer use this in a fight? Equal to the number of Counterspells they can use? That seems a little odd, learning spells left and right in the middle of a fight (even if the class is supposed to be a genius magic user this seems excessive). Wouldn't this ability make them want to never use damaging spells against an enemy Spellcaster and just keep Counterspelling? There could be a limit to "Once you've learned a spell through this use of Counterspell then you cannot learn another spell until the next dawn." But they could (and I suppose this would be up to the DM to prevent) just knock the Spellcaster out and treat them as a fountain of knowledge each morning (either learning another Sorcerer spell IN ADDITION or replacing one of their countered spells with another). Maybe the spell could read "Once you've learned a spell from a Spellcaster using this form of Counterspell you cannot learn another spell from them until a week has passed." This would both prevent them from changing their spells out though a Counterspelled ally EVERYDAY but not make the ability rather weak (a once-per-week ability that is not nearly as good as the (only?) other once-per-week ability Divine Intervention?)

Once-per-week seems like an arbitrary limitation to this ability, but then again there are a lot of these in DnD so what's one more? This phrasing would allow the Sorcerer to learn a spell from their ally Spellcasters (as long as it was on the Sorcerer spell list) but would prevent it from making the Sorcerer a pseudo-Prepared Caster class. As usual there would be the "While you can use this ability to counter any level of spell, you can only learn spells that are of a level which you can know and cast."

Maybe put in an Arcana check to learn the spell? Using CHA+ARC instead of INT+ARC?
Also what level would be appropriate for this ability.

Rockphed
2018-08-14, 01:55 PM
Wouldn't this be INCREDIBLY overpowered? Unless it has a limit of "Spell level first through fifth can be downcast." Otherwise you get effectively two ninth level spells, two eighth, two seventh, and three sixth.
Now if there was a level based thing: at 5th level you unlock the ability to down cast a spell of first through third level into a one level lower spell slot. At 15th level you gain the ability to use this ability on spells of level fourth through fifth level. At 18th level you can use this on sixth-seventh level. At 20th level you can use this on any level spell you desire. Or maybe make it peak at eighth level, cause, again two ninth level spells is intense. But then again this would be an additional level 20 ability which: few people get to, and when they do it usually marks the end of the game (since the fight with the BBEG levels them up to 20).

How about: "casting a spell at a lower level takes the product of all spell levels between the initial and final level, inclusive, in sorcerer points. Levels 1 and 0 are treated as being level 2 for this ability." So, turning a 1st level spell into a cantrip takes 4 points. Casting a 2nd level spell in a first level slot takes 4 points. Casting a 3rd in a 2nd takes 6. Casting a 9th in an 8th takes 72. Casting a 2nd as a cantrip takes 8. Casting a 9th as a 7th takes 504.

Shmeebly
2018-08-14, 02:06 PM
How about: "casting a spell at a lower level takes the product of all spell levels between the initial and final level, inclusive, in sorcerer points. Levels 1 and 0 are treated as being level 2 for this ability." So, turning a 1st level spell into a cantrip takes 4 points. Casting a 2nd level spell in a first level slot takes 4 points. Casting a 3rd in a 2nd takes 6. Casting a 9th in an 8th takes 72. Casting a 2nd as a cantrip takes 8. Casting a 9th as a 7th takes 504.

This seems like a bit too much. After all, there wouldn't really be a point to downcasting ANY spell would there be? I mean you couldn't downcast any high level spells and it would be MUCH more cost efficient to just make a new spell slot. Which now that I remember that ability, it makes this entire idea seem a tad silly. Afterall, there would be a very small number of times when you need to use this. Maybe when you need to use Misty Step but are completely out of spells slots of second and above? But if that's happened you're probably also out of sorcery points.

Rockphed
2018-08-14, 02:59 PM
This seems like a bit too much. After all, there wouldn't really be a point to downcasting ANY spell would there be? I mean you couldn't downcast any high level spells and it would be MUCH more cost efficient to just make a new spell slot. Which now that I remember that ability, it makes this entire idea seem a tad silly. Afterall, there would be a very small number of times when you need to use this. Maybe when you need to use Misty Step but are completely out of spells slots of second and above? But if that's happened you're probably also out of sorcery points.

Maybe have it be "you can use this ability to cast a spell at a lower level so long as the product of the spell levels is less than your sorcerer level", and have it be limited to 1 use per short rest. Then you can turn a 1st into a 0th, but you can also pull an emergency misty step at 1st level if so needed.

Shmeebly
2018-08-14, 03:26 PM
Maybe have it be "you can use this ability to cast a spell at a lower level so long as the product of the spell levels is less than your sorcerer level", and have it be limited to 1 use per short rest. Then you can turn a 1st into a 0th, but you can also pull an emergency misty step at 1st level if so needed.

This is a much better iteration. My only concern is that it would be (to my knowledge) the ONLY ability in the entire game to have a "product" ruling. It might be better to just make it "You can do first and second level spells at 3rd level, third level spells at 7th level, fourth level spells at 11th level, and fifth level spells at 15th level." This isn't a perfect line-up with what you've suggested but rather close (until you reach the fourth level spell slots which would be impossible with your suggestion: fourth level spells at Sorcerer level 24 and fifth level spells at Sorcerer level 120). And you get a second use of this at 10th level per short rest.

Vogie
2018-08-14, 08:41 PM
Would the casting of spells renew sorcery points equal to if you had converted the spell slot? I.E. cast a first level spell and get one sorcery point back, cast a ninth level spell get nine back? So this would allow a Sorcerer to cast a second level spell with two (Empowered and one other) Metamagic for free (besides the expended spell slot)? This seems interesting (overpowered probably but it's a 20th level Capstone). It also gives a unique not copy-pasta'd (as you put it) Capstone (which all the class should have but not all do).[/QUOTE]

That's the idea... It may be overpowered, but I'm in full spaghetti mode.

Another option is you could make it something where they couldn't do it on demand - Give them a ritual to make a circle of power that reverses the polarity of the sorcerous drain, or some such mage-o-babble, but only standing in this one circle they took a minute to draw out (that is, not in combat unless they were lying in wait or defending their sanctum). Maybe even give them the spell Magic Circle, but with the additional text in the class feature.


Wouldn't this be INCREDIBLY overpowered? Unless it has a limit of "Spell level first through fifth can be downcast." Otherwise you get effectively two ninth level spells, two eighth, two seventh, and three sixth.
Now if there was a level based thing: at 5th level you unlock the ability to down cast a spell of first through third level into a one level lower spell slot. At 15th level you gain the ability to use this ability on spells of level fourth through fifth level. At 18th level you can use this on sixth-seventh level. At 20th level you can use this on any level spell you desire. Or maybe make it peak at eighth level, cause, again two ninth level spells is intense. But then again this would be an additional level 20 ability which: few people get to, and when they do it usually marks the end of the game (since the fight with the BBEG levels them up to 20).

Yeah, I was really only thinking of doing it to lower level spells - specifically turning 1st levels into Cantrips... more on that later. Basically, I wanted something LIKE spell mastery, that wasn't actually a clone of it.


Similar to the Artificer class feature? But make it be a limit of 1 extra item. Have it say something like "Your innate magic allows you to have an easier time understanding the magics imbued into a magical item. When you unlock this ability at level 13 you gain the ability to attune to a fourth magic item."

Whoops, it is an artificer thing, isn't it? I forgot that class existed.



I actually had the very same idea! But I wasn't sure how to implement it.

Would this ability cause the Sorcerer to know this spell IN ADDITION to their spells learned through leveling? Or would it cause the Sorcerer to have to replace one of their known spells? This would be a huge nerf in my opinion, but having them able to learn EVERY spell on the Sorcerer spell list is crazy, too! At which point they would be able to know (or prepare) more spells than ANY other class by far. Maybe limit them to learning a number of spells equal to either: their CHA mod (only 5) or 1/2 their Sorcerer level (10 tops). They could then replace these counter-learned spells with another counter-learned spell.

How often could the Sorcerer use this in a fight? Equal to the number of Counterspells they can use? That seems a little odd, learning spells left and right in the middle of a fight (even if the class is supposed to be a genius magic user this seems excessive). Wouldn't this ability make them want to never use damaging spells against an enemy Spellcaster and just keep Counterspelling? There could be a limit to "Once you've learned a spell through this use of Counterspell then you cannot learn another spell until the next dawn." But they could (and I suppose this would be up to the DM to prevent) just knock the Spellcaster out and treat them as a fountain of knowledge each morning (either learning another Sorcerer spell IN ADDITION or replacing one of their countered spells with another). Maybe the spell could read "Once you've learned a spell from a Spellcaster using this form of Counterspell you cannot learn another spell from them until a week has passed." This would both prevent them from changing their spells out though a Counterspelled ally EVERYDAY but not make the ability rather weak (a once-per-week ability that is not nearly as good as the (only?) other once-per-week ability Divine Intervention?)

Once-per-week seems like an arbitrary limitation to this ability, but then again there are a lot of these in DnD so what's one more? This phrasing would allow the Sorcerer to learn a spell from their ally Spellcasters (as long as it was on the Sorcerer spell list) but would prevent it from making the Sorcerer a pseudo-Prepared Caster class. As usual there would be the "While you can use this ability to counter any level of spell, you can only learn spells that are of a level which you can know and cast."

Maybe put in an Arcana check to learn the spell? Using CHA+ARC instead of INT+ARC?
Also what level would be appropriate for this ability.

Yeah it'd have to be a high level ability (metamagic with a 10+ requirement) that would add to their total spells - not dissimilar to how a ritual caster could potentially get all the ritual spells, but isn't guaranteed to be able to.

Ways to pare it down:

Absurdly long cooldown (7+ days)
Can only learn certain spellschools (pick 2, for example)
Can only learn certain spell levels (no higher than 5th level, et cetera)
Only learn a certain number of spells (probably tied to proficiency modifier)
Stolen spells must always be cast at levels 5+ (Yes you stole ShieldlMisty Step from that Archmage; nope, it's still a level 5 for you)
And so on.



How about: "casting a spell at a lower level takes the product of all spell levels between the initial and final level, inclusive, in sorcerer points. Levels 1 and 0 are treated as being level 2 for this ability." So, turning a 1st level spell into a cantrip takes 4 points. Casting a 2nd level spell in a first level slot takes 4 points. Casting a 3rd in a 2nd takes 6. Casting a 9th in an 8th takes 72. Casting a 2nd as a cantrip takes 8. Casting a 9th as a 7th takes 504.

No, I was really thinking about basically giving a sorcerer a huge amount of "cantrips" at high levels... so they could cast a "first level" Chaos bolt, for example, instead of fire bolt as their primary damage dealer, as long as you had Sorc Points. Remember - a first level spell slot costs 2 points, so why would I spend 2 (or more) to turn it into a slotless cantrip??

The first person was right - being able to downshift level 6+ level spells is a really terrible idea lol

Shmeebly
2018-08-14, 10:59 PM
That's the idea... It may be overpowered, but I'm in full spaghetti mode.

Another option is you could make it something where they couldn't do it on demand - Give them a ritual to make a circle of power that reverses the polarity of the sorcerous drain, or some such mage-o-babble, but only standing in this one circle they took a minute to draw out (that is, not in combat unless they were lying in wait or defending their sanctum). Maybe even give them the spell Magic Circle, but with the additional text in the class feature.


I think the ability as it was previously discussed is more "Sorcerer-y". The Magic Circle would be a more prepared thing and fall more into a Wizard-esque feature, wouldn't it? I feel like it is fine as it is: "As an action you can enter into a state where you are one with the Weave. At the start of your next turn the magic within you merges with the magic outside of you and spell casting becomes easier. Whenever you cast a spell of first level or higher, you regain sorcery points equal to the level of spell cast. This state lasts for one minute and can only be used once per long rest."

If you really wanted to put a limit on it (a 20th level ability shouldn't have a limitation unless it can be used multiple times per day, in my opinion), maybe have it take a pretty steep requirement to use but multiple uses per day? Large number of Sorcerer points consumed on use, or maybe make it a Sorcerer only fifth/sixth level spell that they learn upon reaching level 20? (weird)

Maybe make it so that if you spend an entire turn using no movement or actions starting at the beginning of your next turn you gain the effects? The ability ends if you willingly move in any way (teleportation, walking, flying, etc.).



Yeah, I was really only thinking of doing it to lower level spells - specifically turning 1st levels into Cantrips... more on that later. Basically, I wanted something LIKE spell mastery, that wasn't actually a clone of it.


Maybe make it just a Metamagic option that allows you to cast a first level spell as a cantrip? Level 5+.

If this were the case would you make it so features that say things like "Whenever you cast a spell of first level or higher..." still proc? Or since the spell is now a "cantrip" the abilities wouldn't proc.



Ways to pare it down:

Absurdly long cooldown (7+ days)
Can only learn certain spellschools (pick 2, for example)
Can only learn certain spell levels (no higher than 5th level, et cetera)
Only learn a certain number of spells (probably tied to proficiency modifier)
Stolen spells must always be cast at levels 5+ (Yes you stole ShieldlMisty Step from that Archmage; nope, it's still a level 5 for you)
And so on.

I think the points I agree with are the first, third and fourth points. The Sorcerer would gain the ability at level 10 and could use it once per week. They could learn ANY spell of first through fifth level. The Sorcerer could only know a number of spells learned this way equal to their proficiency modifier.

The second point seems arbitrary (unless you mean the Sorcerer chooses the Schools of Magic that they are naturally talented in for this ability--which makes sense) and the fifth point seems very restrictive.

After thinking about it for a bit, using ANY spell list makes this ability a kind of Magical Secrets type ability (which is neither good nor bad, in my opinion).

Rockphed
2018-08-14, 11:59 PM
No, I was really thinking about basically giving a sorcerer a huge amount of "cantrips" at high levels... so they could cast a "first level" Chaos bolt, for example, instead of fire bolt as their primary damage dealer, as long as you had Sorc Points. Remember - a first level spell slot costs 2 points, so why would I spend 2 (or more) to turn it into a slotless cantrip??

The first person was right - being able to downshift level 6+ level spells is a really terrible idea lol

Because then you can cast it ad finitum. I am very willing to admit that my math is way too harsh as I don't have any actual experience with 5th edition.

Shmeebly
2018-08-15, 12:42 AM
Because then you can cast it ad finitum. I am very willing to admit that my math is way too harsh as I don't have any actual experience with 5th edition.

I think there might be a slight disconnect between what is being understood and what is being conveyed. Vogie was saying something along the lines of "Spend 1 sorcery point to make a 1st level spell a cantrip." This would probably be a new Metamagic option. This ability would allow you to do two things.

The first is pretty obvious: cast more first level spells for a slightly lower cost. Since the Sorcerer can already make a first level spell slot for two sorcery points and a bonus action, this ability would allow you to free up a bonus action or two and it would be 1/2 the original cost.


Because then you can cast it ad finitum.

This ability would NOT be for free which is what I am interpreting your post as (saying you could infinitely cast first level spells). It would still cost one sorcery point.

The second perk of this ability would be to cast a first level spell in addition to ANY other spell (that the Sorcerer could cast normally). This is useful since 5e (not sure about other versions) has a limit of casting a spell of first level or higher as an Action/Bonus and a single cantrip as an Action/Bonus. So by RAW you could cast Blade Ward (cantrip) as an Action and Misty Step (second level spell) as a Bonus. Using this ability you could cast Burning Hands (first level spell now a cantrip) as an Action and Wish (ninth level spell + Quickened Spell Metamagic) as a Bonus.

Vogie
2018-08-15, 08:17 AM
I think the ability as it was previously discussed is more "Sorcerer-y". The Magic Circle would be a more prepared thing and fall more into a Wizard-esque feature, wouldn't it? I feel like it is fine as it is: "As an action you can enter into a state where you are one with the Weave. At the start of your next turn the magic within you merges with the magic outside of you and spell casting becomes easier. Whenever you cast a spell of first level or higher, you regain sorcery points equal to the level of spell cast. This state lasts for one minute and can only be used once per long rest."

If you really wanted to put a limit on it (a 20th level ability shouldn't have a limitation unless it can be used multiple times per day, in my opinion), maybe have it take a pretty steep requirement to use but multiple uses per day? Large number of Sorcerer points consumed on use, or maybe make it a Sorcerer only fifth/sixth level spell that they learn upon reaching level 20? (weird)

Maybe make it so that if you spend an entire turn using no movement or actions starting at the beginning of your next turn you gain the effects? The ability ends if you willingly move in any way (teleportation, walking, flying, etc.).

Yeah, you're right - that's a bit to dusty-tome-esque for a sorcerer.

And now that I'm running the numbers, having a one-minute period where all spells generate sorc points is kind of absurd - depending on the level, you could generate nearly another full day's worth of spell slots over the course of one minute.

Maybe

A 1 minute "Sorcery Rage" where metamagic doesn't cost sorc points?
A SR feature that allows a single spell to generate sorc points?
An absorb-elements-style reaction that converts a portion of incoming damage into sorc points?



Maybe make it just a Metamagic option that allows you to cast a first level spell as a cantrip? Level 5+.

If this were the case would you make it so features that say things like "Whenever you cast a spell of first level or higher..." still proc? Or since the spell is now a "cantrip" the abilities wouldn't proc.

Of course! We're working on metamagic, so that makes the most sense. No I'd rather it count as a cantrip for the reason you state below.


I think the points I agree with are the first, third and fourth points. The Sorcerer would gain the ability at level 10 and could use it once per week. They could learn ANY spell of first through fifth level. The Sorcerer could only know a number of spells learned this way equal to their proficiency modifier.
The second point seems arbitrary (unless you mean the Sorcerer chooses the Schools of Magic that they are naturally talented in for this ability--which makes sense) and the fifth point seems very restrictive.
After thinking about it for a bit, using ANY spell list makes this ability a kind of Magical Secrets type ability (which is neither good nor bad, in my opinion).

I didn't really like the spell school idea either, but I also thought that it did sound like a restriction a specialist caster like the sorcerer would have. A blaster character may be able to learn evocation and necromancy spells, for example.


I think there might be a slight disconnect between what is being understood and what is being conveyed. Vogie was saying something along the lines of "Spend 1 sorcery point to make a 1st level spell a cantrip." This would probably be a new Metamagic option. This ability would allow you to do two things.

The first is pretty obvious: cast more first level spells for a slightly lower cost. Since the Sorcerer can already make a first level spell slot for two sorcery points and a bonus action, this ability would allow you to free up a bonus action or two and it would be 1/2 the original cost.

This ability would NOT be for free which is what I am interpreting your post as (saying you could infinitely cast first level spells). It would still cost one sorcery point.

The second perk of this ability would be to cast a first level spell in addition to ANY other spell (that the Sorcerer could cast normally). This is useful since 5e (not sure about other versions) has a limit of casting a spell of first level or higher as an Action/Bonus and a single cantrip as an Action/Bonus. So by RAW you could cast Blade Ward (cantrip) as an Action and Misty Step (second level spell) as a Bonus. Using this ability you could cast Burning Hands (first level spell now a cantrip) as an Action and Wish (ninth level spell + Quickened Spell Metamagic) as a Bonus.

Correct - you're still hard-capped with the number of Sorc Points you have at any time. Now, that can be a lot - a 10th level sorcerer will have 10 sorc points, and, were they to convert ALL of their spell slots to sorc points (4,3,3,3,2 would give 4+6+9+12+10=41) they would have a total of 61 points. In the average game, that means that a sorcerer could potentially cast a 1st level spell as a cantrip 61 times. That's an absurd amount of times, but that is at the cost of doing literally anything else.

I hadn't even considered the cool combo with quicken spell, but that just cements it as a good idea, as it's a combo that only a sorcerer can pull off. Uniquely.

So we're looking at adding a pair of metamagic spells thus far, available at level 10 (so they can be picked up at 10, 14, & 17):

Downshift Spell (requires 10th level)
When you cast a spell at first level, you can spend 1 sorcery point to cast it as a cantrip instead, without expending a spell slot.

Unravel* Spell (requires 10th level)
When you cast a Counterspell or Dispel Magic spell, you can spend 3 sorcery points. If you do, and a 5th level or lower spell ends in this way, you unravel* that spell instead. Whenever you finish a long rest, pick one of the unraveled* spells from the previous day, and learn it - that spell counts as sorcerer spell for you and are in addition to the Spells Known column of the Sorcerer table. You can unravel* a number of spells equal to your proficiency modifier. When you add a spell to your list in this way, you can't use this feature again for 7 days.

*Alternate names: Spelljack, Bind Spell, Absorb Spell, Capture Spell

I added the lag between a spell is unraveled/jacked/bound/absorbed/captured to the end of the next long rest so the players' spell list doesn't change mid-fight, and also allows them to potentially unravel(or whatever) a series of spells, then pick one. It also encourages a sorcerer to Long rest, which is a subtle nudge away from coffee-based scenarios.

Shmeebly
2018-08-15, 12:11 PM
A 1 minute "Sorcery Rage" where metamagic doesn't cost sorc points?
A SR feature that allows a single spell to generate sorc points?
An absorb-elements-style reaction that converts a portion of incoming damage into sorc points?


I think the first point is the most sensible one for a Sorcerer. Overpowered, for sure (able to Twin/Quicken/Empower EVERY spell that's applicable) but it's a level 20 capstone so I have no issue with it.
The second is a bit too repetitive seeming in my opinion (unless you make it so that casting any first level spell regains sorcery points, which would alleviate the "I cast X spell" every Action/Bonus every turn to regenerate points.
The third seems a bit too infrequent? Unless you mean you gain the ability to use your reaction to half ANY damage you take and you regain one sorcery point per 10 damage reduced. But that seems a little... iffy.



Of course! We're working on metamagic, so that makes the most sense. No I'd rather it count as a cantrip for the reason you state below.

Yeah, I thought of the cantrip thing after I'd already written that part



I didn't really like the spell school idea either, but I also thought that it did sound like a restriction a specialist caster like the sorcerer would have. A blaster character may be able to learn evocation and necromancy spells, for example.

I can see making the Sorcerer choose as a fair rule. I wouldn't personally implement it but I don't see any HUGE restriction or limit here.



I hadn't even considered the cool combo with quicken spell, but that just cements it as a good idea, as it's a combo that only a sorcerer can pull off. Uniquely.

Yeah I thought of it right before I posted that message. It suddenly hit me and I was like "Whoa! That would work!"



Downshift Spell (requires 10th level)
When you cast a spell at first level, you can spend 1 sorcery point to cast it as a cantrip instead, without expending a spell slot.

In your opinion would this be too strong to be unlocked at 7th level? At that point the Sorcerer would have a 4th level spell but would also have 7 sorcery points and (by my suggested changes) be recharging 2 sorcery points per short rest so they would be getting (assuming no other uses of Metamagic) eleven first level spells and would gain two more every short rest. I ask this because I've also suggested gaining another Metamagic at level 7.



Unravel* Spell (requires 10th level)
You can unravel* a number of spells equal to your proficiency modifier.

Are you saying you can only unravel (at most) six spells per day? Even if you were to cast Counterspell >6 times (and all the spells happened to be able to be unraveled as well. Unlikely, but possible.)? Or are you saying you can only KNOW a number of spells equal to proficiency modifier.
Like: "While you can Unravel any number of spells per day, you must choose which of the spells you've Unraveled to learn over a Long Rest. Once you've used this ability you cannot use it again for 7 days."

An issue with making this a Metamagic option is that it's too potent to NOT choose. It's essentially a "Must Choose" ability which makes the Metamagic option at level 10 seem like "I HAVE to choose that one" and it removes a sense of "freedom of choice"? Maybe just remove the Metamagic gain at 10th level and make it this ability instead.

Vogie
2018-08-15, 01:00 PM
In your opinion would this be too strong to be unlocked at 7th level? At that point the Sorcerer would have a 4th level spell but would also have 7 sorcery points and (by my suggested changes) be recharging 2 sorcery points per short rest so they would be getting (assuming no other uses of Metamagic) eleven first level spells and would gain two more every short rest. I ask this because I've also suggested gaining another Metamagic at level 7.

I don't know - sure! This would really need to be playtested to make sure it's not uberbroken at low level.



Are you saying you can only unravel (at most) six spells per day? Even if you were to cast Counterspell >6 times (and all the spells happened to be able to be unraveled as well. Unlikely, but possible.)? Or are you saying you can only KNOW a number of spells equal to proficiency modifier.
Like: "While you can Unravel any number of spells per day, you must choose which of the spells you've Unraveled to learn over a Long Rest. Once you've used this ability you cannot use it again for 7 days."

An issue with making this a Metamagic option is that it's too potent to NOT choose. It's essentially a "Must Choose" ability which makes the Metamagic option at level 10 seem like "I HAVE to choose that one" and it removes a sense of "freedom of choice"? Maybe just remove the Metamagic gain at 10th level and make it this ability instead.

Yeah, that was just bad wording - maybe it makes more sense if you use the word absorb. You can only *learn* up to 4, 5, or 6 (based on prof) spells you have absorbed but you can use the absorb feature as many times.

It's not going to be a must choose - I specifically made it be the most expensive metamagic (outside of the variable cost of twin) because you may not want to use it on every casting of dispel magic/Counterspell - because Dispel & Counterspell can be upcast up to 9th level, but you can only absorb/learn up to 5th level spells.

In addition, the player is only going to get 6 metamagic options (2 at level 3, 1 at 7, 1 at 10, 1 at 14, 1 at 17) out of 10+ choices (original 8 + these two + any other options you may add), and this metamagic can only be used with Counterspell and Dispel Magic. That's already a meaningful choice.

If you wanted to turn it into a feature, I'd make that a sorcerer subclass/archetype/bloodline that is focused on absorbing/disrupting opponents, rather than a class feature.

Shmeebly
2018-08-15, 01:12 PM
If you wanted to turn it into a feature, I'd make that a sorcerer subclass/archetype/bloodline that is focused on absorbing/disrupting opponents, rather than a class feature.

Yeah, like a Mage-Slayer-esque subtype? That seems like an interesting idea. They would gain this ability as their level 6 ability but only be able to learn spells that they could cast (since the Sorcerer could use up to third level spells at level). Sounds like a cool idea! I'll try to think of some things for their 1st/14th/18th Sorcerous Origin abilities.

Thanks for all your suggestions and feedback!