PDA

View Full Version : Mutants & Masterminds 3rd Edition Revised: Final Topic - System



Nintendogeek01
2018-08-14, 05:36 PM
Whew... several weeks have gone since opening these threads, we've had some disagreements, some debate, and ultimately some productive insight into third edition of Mutants & Masterminds. Now for all the weak points I've brought up, and the weak points others have brought up, M&M3E is honestly still solidly my favorite system that I've played, and it's a shame that I don't get to play it more. The game manages to be my favorite system with little to no assistance on my part, well no more than is expected of the system I should say, but having said that it's still great we've talked about what we think can be done to polish it out further.

So for the final topic I'd like to open the floor to how the system plays. The miscellaneous topic of the bunch if you will. Be it the ranks and measurements table, the grappling rules, rules that you think could fit with M&M but aren't written in the book, etc. In stark contrast to how I've opened the prior week's topics though I've got nothing to lead into this with, as I've really no bone with how the system runs in a general sense, or at least not one I feel strongly enough about that I can think of it off the top of my head; if there's something you feel is important to talk about, feel free to do so.

I also encourage anyone to weigh in on the other segments of the discussion, which will be linked below. As always, when discussing anything please keep in mind...
Keep the discussion focused on what aspect we are covering this week, namely the system. You may use other aspects they affect or are affected by but ultimately the discussion this week is about powers.
Criticizing ideas is constructive, criticizing people is insulting, Don't make things or take things personal when discussing items.
Naturally respect other rules on the forums.

So ladies, gents, and all others; Discuss away!

Nintendogeek01
2018-08-14, 05:38 PM
Missed out on the rest of the discussions so far? The links below take you to the other discussions both here and on Ronin Army.



-
Ronin Army
Giant in the Playground


Abilities
Ronin Army Abilities (https://roninarmy.com/threads/7615-Mutants-amp-Masterminds-3rd-Edition-Revised-Week-1-Abilities)
GitP Abilities (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?561619-Mutants-amp-Masterminds-3rd-Edition-Revised-Week-1-Abilities)


Skills
Ronin Army Skills (https://roninarmy.com/threads/7636-Mutants-amp-Masterminds-3rd-Edition-Revised-Week-2-Skills)
GitP Skills (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?562231-Mutants-amp-Masterminds-3rd-Edition-Revised-Week-2-Skills)


Advantages
Ronin Army Advantages (https://roninarmy.com/threads/7682-Mutants-amp-Masterminds-3rd-Edition-Revised-Week-3-Advantages)
GitP Advantages (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?563318-Mutants-amp-Masterminds-3rd-Edition-Revised-Week-3-Advantages)


Defenses
Ronin Army Defenses (https://roninarmy.com/threads/7695-Mutants-amp-Masterminds-3rd-Edition-Revised-Week-4-Defenses)
GitP Defenses (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?563934-Mutants-amp-Masterminds-3rd-Edition-Revised-Week-4-Defenses)


Powers
Ronin Army Powers (https://roninarmy.com/threads/7740-Mutants-amp-Masterminds-3rd-Edition-Revised-Week-5-Powers)
GitP Powers (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?565245-Mutants-amp-Masterminds-3rd-Edition-Revised-Week-5-Powers)


Other
Ronin Army System (https://roninarmy.com/threads/7777-Mutants-amp-Masterminds-3rd-Edition-Revised-Final-Topic-System)
GitP System (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?566524-Mutants-amp-Masterminds-3rd-Edition-Revised-Final-Topic-System)

Draz74
2018-08-15, 07:59 AM
It's a minor quibble, but I dislike that charging gives you a penalty to your attack roll.

Quellian-dyrae
2018-08-15, 01:31 PM
There's honestly not much I can say about the underlying system either, at least not that I didn't mention in previous threads. I am 100% in agreement that, though it's not perfect, M&M is an extremely solid system overall. While certainly not a "rules light" system by any stretch, given the amount of build space that is available, it is impressively simple and impressively balanced. It's telling, I think, that like 99% of the splatbook content is just giving you tips for how to use the existing rules, rather than directly expanding on them.

My biggest complaint about the system itself is honestly that they didn't go far enough with their best points. The core idea that mechanics should be the concrete game bits and then you put them together to do what you want them to do fluff them how you want is extremely good, but there are parts of the system that don't use that paradigm and that's what often leads to issues. When you can buy the exact same mechanical capabilities in different ways, you get balance issues. If there were one major systemic change I'd make to M&M, it would be ensuring that there is always one price for any given mechanical capability, which can then potentially have Flaws applied to restrict it or Extras to expand it.

...That said, while I love the rank/measures table in general, Volume rank is just painful to work with every time (especially since it's usually way too small).

Rynjin
2018-08-16, 08:28 PM
One of my issues with M&M comes in on Area attacks. Strictly speaking they're stronger than aimed attacks in pretty much every regard against people with split defenses or defenses skewed towards the Dodge/Parry side rather than the Toughness side.

A lot of the system in general disincentivizes players to focus on balanced or dodgy characters, since while a character with high Toughness will always be hit but almost never suffer a damage effect, statistically speaking dodgy characters are likely to be hit (if slightly less so than Toughness based characters) and will often suffer the full effects of any attack.

I've played about 10 games of M&M, and any time I play a character that jacks Toughness I feel like an unstoppable super being, if I play balanced I feel more normal, and any dodgy characters need to make their big play in round 1 of the combat before they're inevitably nuked by an AoE and get knocked out instantly.

Basically, the defensive options aren't equally weighted. The weaknesses of a character with low Toughness are far, far easier to exploit than a character with low Dodge/Parry, which is odd considering the latter costs twice as much.

Quellian-dyrae
2018-08-16, 11:31 PM
That's all true, but interestingly, it's not necessarily equally true for all games. It really depends on the "metagame" of what sort of attacks people use regularly.

If most people have and use Power Attack, Toughness shifts can wind up largely irrelevant against targeted attack, though they'll still be strong against Area and Perception attacks that target Toughness.

If Linked attacks are common, Toughness becomes less powerful, and if Linked Power Attacks are common, Toughness shifting can even get detrimental.

Area and Perception attacks that are resisted by Toughness wreck Defense-shifted characters.

Grabs will ruin the day of any Toughness-shifted character who doesn't also have high Strength.

Defense-resisted attacks, such as Snares, will utterly wreck Toughness-shifted characters, especially if Power Attacking. Defense-resisted Damage, such as lightsabers, simply makes you regret shifting Toughness at all.

If your enemies can be expected to learn and target weaknesses intelligently, any shift is bad, because arrays make targeting multiple types of defenses cheap, and the attacker controls what you defend with. Interpose can help with that, some.

This does all kinda tie into a bit of a systemic issue with M&M, which is that in general, defensive options are a bit too strong when they work, but too easy to circumvent.

dino_park
2018-08-17, 07:22 AM
A role playing game is three things. It is an interactive story, a game of chance, and a process in critical thinking.