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Derpaligtr
2018-08-16, 08:25 PM
I'm out.

Don't want to deal with this site anymore :smallsigh:

Amnoriath
2018-08-16, 09:31 PM
1. No, ki doesn't work well here. First off the mini rage features are better than all other 1 point features out there and the fact it takes a level 3 Barbarian and 3 turns is time a low level character doesn't have. The Ki point system is designed as a reliable burst mechanism that scales well to mimic a couple of other class features. In theory it makes a very capable character that can't do everything all the time. Yours will Rage pretty much all the time before level 10. There is a reason why they waited it as part of the capstone.
2. Forcing charisma oriented abilities only limits the subclass choices.
3. I assume you mean bonus to damage rolls as Reckless Attack already increases accuracy. Even so proficiency bonus means more dipping and going.

Derpaligtr
2018-08-16, 09:41 PM
1. No, ki doesn't work well here. First off the mini rage features are better than all other 1 point features out there and the fact it takes a level 3 Barbarian and 3 turns is time a low level character doesn't have. The Ki point system is designed as a reliable burst mechanism that scales well to mimic a couple of other class features. In theory it makes a very capable character that can't do everything all the time. Yours will Rage pretty much all the time before level 10. There is a reason why they waited it as part of the capstone.
2. Forcing charisma oriented abilities only limits the subclass choices.
3. I assume you mean bonus to damage rolls as Reckless Attack already increases accuracy. Even so proficiency bonus means more dipping and going.

Doesn't take 3 rounds to do anything? If you have the ki. The trade off is that now the rage is short rest based.

Barbarians are known for being charisma based... Not sure how putting charisma in the class is forcing anything...

3) yup damage.

JNAProductions
2018-08-16, 10:10 PM
Reckless Attack is table at level 1, text at level 2. Fix.

Unarmored Defense is basically what the Draconic Sorcerer gets, but better. It really should be 10+Dex+Other Stat, or 13+Dex.

And yeah, tying Rage to Ki is OP AS HELL.

For reference, Barbarians get 2 Rages at level 1, and 6 at level 19. (Unlimited at 20, though.) That means that, at level 1, it's a resource to be carefully used, only when needed. And even at level 19, while it will USUALLY last you all day, a long day might overwhelm your reserves.

This gets one minute of the important bit of rage (the resistances) at a rate of once per level, recharging on a short rest. (Plus the damage bonus is better.) So, assuming you have three encounters per short rest (when usually you might only have two) you have all-day rage at level 3.

If you want both resistances and damage bonuses, you'll have to wait till level 6 to Rage in every encounter. That's... That's not balanced.

Derpaligtr
2018-08-16, 10:45 PM
Reckless Attack is table at level 1, text at level 2. Fix.

Unarmored Defense is basically what the Draconic Sorcerer gets, but better. It really should be 10+Dex+Other Stat, or 13+Dex.

And yeah, tying Rage to Ki is OP AS HELL.

For reference, Barbarians get 2 Rages at level 1, and 6 at level 19. (Unlimited at 20, though.) That means that, at level 1, it's a resource to be carefully used, only when needed. And even at level 19, while it will USUALLY last you all day, a long day might overwhelm your reserves.

This gets one minute of the important bit of rage (the resistances) at a rate of once per level, recharging on a short rest. (Plus the damage bonus is better.) So, assuming you have three encounters per short rest (when usually you might only have two) you have all-day rage at level 3.

If you want both resistances and damage bonuses, you'll have to wait till level 6 to Rage in every encounter. That's... That's not balanced.

Fixed the table/sentence

You get a lot less choices on class features when it comes to this class so it's a fair tradeoff compared to Mage Armor. Mage Armor lasts for 8 hours (so basically all day) and Warlocks can even grab it for an at-will ability. Comparing anything to the sorcerer isn't something I want to get into the habit of.

It's tied to reckless attack, which by expending ki you can boost your defense or your offense (or both and run out of ki). The idea is no different from Flurry of Blows, Step of the Wind, and Patient Defense (in concept). The fact that you have to reckless attack to keep it going gives the barbarian a drawback. I did fix the wording to make that more clear. You can't rage all the time with this, you can reckless attack all the time (like normal) but for right now (only a 3 level class) you would run out of ki way too fast. Also, if you can't reckless attack, you can't use the ki abilities.

The exact number on the rage bonus does need to be changed eventually (same with ki numbers).

You get to pick either to be more defensive or more offensive. That's ok. This isn't a long rest barbarian and shouldn't get everything at one lump sum. You got to make some trades. Some fights it will be better to use the defensive option with reckless attack, others you want to shore up your saving throws and checks.

This barbarian can't go full out every battle or they will run out of ki FAST. People don't play one combat per short rest, unless they changed things I don't know about.

JNAProductions
2018-08-16, 10:50 PM
The most important part of Rage is the Resistances. You get that for one whole minute at the cost of one ki.

Again-the standard adventuring day is 6-8 encounters, with two short rests.

At level three, you can spend one ki per encounter and have enough for a nine encounter day.

Amnoriath
2018-08-17, 12:08 AM
Doesn't take 3 rounds to do anything? If you have the ki. The trade off is that now the rage is short rest based.

Barbarians are known for being charisma based... Not sure how putting charisma in the class is forcing anything...

3) yup damage.
1. No, the trade off is you are forcing them to wait 3 rounds and 3 bonus action for what the original had in 1 for both. In low level most encounters are done or about to be. However you have also made it so that parts of rage are always reliable.
2. Forcing charisma based utility at level 3 does though as the concepts and flavors you can run with are forced to accomodate that for no reason other than you want it. You aren't expanding a mechanic in your base class, you aren't even making it worth to invest in Charisma.

Derpaligtr
2018-08-17, 11:25 AM
The most important part of Rage is the Resistances. You get that for one whole minute at the cost of one ki.

Again-the standard adventuring day is 6-8 encounters, with two short rests.

At level three, you can spend one ki per encounter and have enough for a nine encounter day.

Wrong. The most important thing to **you** is the resistance. The most important thing about rage is that rage supplies bonuses AND allows you to do awesome things with your primal path. I've seen plenty of people who forget about the resistances of the barbarian's rage.

Being able to do a little over the course of a day is fine. You can't do everything all the time... You know, like the monk, which this is based around.

I'm not using the barbarian's ideology with this. This is using the monk's ideology, which is why it has ki and is built more like the monk.





1. No, the trade off is you are forcing them to wait 3 rounds and 3 bonus action for what the original had in 1 for both. In low level most encounters are done or about to be. However you have also made it so that parts of rage are always reliable.
2. Forcing charisma based utility at level 3 does though as the concepts and flavors you can run with are forced to accomodate that for no reason other than you want it. You aren't expanding a mechanic in your base class, you aren't even making it worth to invest in Charisma.

No. I made the wording more clear, you don't have to pick just one, you can pick one, two, or three. You don't wait 3 rounds for anything.

Barbarians have always been tied to charisma. If someone has a problem, they can homebrew the homebrew and change it to a wisdom based skill (another barbarian staple). Do you complain about the Monk being forced into wisdom? I think it's worse that the martial classes have no need for mental stats than being pushed into having something for out of combat use. I just don't see a problem with working with the basic fantadtic concept of the barbarian with the Path of the Mountain King and then giving an option that goes against the grain with Path of the Sugar Plum Fairy.

JNAProductions
2018-08-17, 11:50 AM
Okay. You still get unlimited FULL RAGE at level 9, or effectively that. It costs 3 Ki to enter a full rage, so with 9 Ki, you can handle three encounters per short rest with Rage, when the standard adventuring day averages to two encounters.

And, moreover, are you really trying to claim that the damage resistances are not the biggest part of rage? The bonus damage is nice, but it's 2-8 extra damage per turn. That's not much. Advantage on Strength checks can be cool for grappling, so I'd rate that good, but Strength saves aren't terribly common or important to pass. The resistances are the main selling part of rage. And your class can have that up for every encounter, starting at level two or three.

Amnoriath
2018-08-17, 07:12 PM
You know, like the monk, which this is based around.

I'm not using the barbarian's ideology with this. This is using the monk's ideology, which is why it has ki and is built more like the monk.






No. I made the wording more clear, you don't have to pick just one, you can pick one, two, or three. You don't wait 3 rounds for anything.

Barbarians have always been tied to charisma. If someone has a problem, they can homebrew the homebrew and change it to a wisdom based skill (another barbarian staple). Do you complain about the Monk being forced into wisdom? I think it's worse that the martial classes have no need for mental stats than being pushed into having something for out of combat use. I just don't see a problem with working with the basic fantadtic concept of the barbarian with the Path of the Mountain King and then giving an option that goes against the grain with Path of the Sugar Plum Fairy.
1. Oy vey, you aren't abiding by the Monk's ideology either as the majority of ki based(all of the 1 ki point) effects are instantaneous. Yours though has a 1 minute duration which lasts the battle.
2. You really don't get it do you? You only have 1 bonus action a turn. You broke the orginal rage into 3 parts therefore it takes you 3 turns to get you up to speed vs. the original.
3. Huh? Have you ever seen 3e and the like that just isn't true.
4. Except you aren't getting what it means to be based like that. Currently you are giving out a free skill proficiency and expertise. They can dump Charisma and still come out even to a Sorcerer with maxed Charisma there. This class doesn't force enough saves nor is there much synergy to making a functional Barbarian. The Paladin and Warlock are star examples of being Charisma based as they both enhance casting and bonuses. The Monk capitalizes off of 2 ability scores that are d20 roll powerhouses. Yours doesn't do either.

Amnoriath
2018-08-17, 07:38 PM
And finally you have the relationship between Reckless Attack and Rage completely backwards. Rage enables the use of Reckless Attack because of its resistances to support jnaproduction's point.

Derpaligtr
2018-08-17, 07:44 PM
Okay. You still get unlimited FULL RAGE at level 9, or effectively that. It costs 3 Ki to enter a full rage, so with 9 Ki, you can handle three encounters per short rest with Rage, when the standard adventuring day averages to two encounters.

And, moreover, are you really trying to claim that the damage resistances are not the biggest part of rage? The bonus damage is nice, but it's 2-8 extra damage per turn. That's not much. Advantage on Strength checks can be cool for grappling, so I'd rate that good, but Strength saves aren't terribly common or important to pass. The resistances are the main selling part of rage. And your class can have that up for every encounter, starting at level two or three.

Eh, it doesn't have 9 levels right now. That a problem for future derpaligtr if it ever gets created. This is a proof of concept.

Even if they use full rage 1/short rest... They would miss out on danger sense and any other class feature they may get that uses ki. The monk gains other features and so would this barbarian. Using up all your resources to rage is fine... Just like using up all your resources to flurry + dodge + disengage can happen.

Though, I can see taking the 1 minute "concentration" effect off and just having them last till the end of the barbarian's next turn. To m

Yes. I've seen plenty of people straight up forget that the barbarian gets resistances or even bonuses to str checks/saves while raging. Defenses are awesome, sure, but just because they're great or you play with them in mind doesn't mean others do too. It's one of the things I think was poorly designed. The defense should have just stayed on the table as DR instead of built into rage. Then it wouldn't be tucked away in rage where many players forget about it.

Side Note: I prefer a defensive minded tank-ish barbarian threat as much as the next person, I'm not talking about my own personal play style.

JNAProductions
2018-08-17, 08:03 PM
As proof of concept, it fails to be balanced.

MoleMage
2018-08-17, 08:28 PM
Eh, it doesn't have 9 levels right now. That a problem for future derpaligtr if it ever gets created. This is a proof of concept.

Even if they use full rage 1/short rest... They would miss out on danger sense and any other class feature they may get that uses ki. The monk gains other features and so would this barbarian. Using up all your resources to rage is fine... Just like using up all your resources to flurry + dodge + disengage can happen.

Though, I can see taking the 1 minute "concentration" effect off and just having them last till the end of the barbarian's next turn. To m

Yes. I've seen plenty of people straight up forget that the barbarian gets resistances or even bonuses to str checks/saves while raging. Defenses are awesome, sure, but just because they're great or you play with them in mind doesn't mean others do too. It's one of the things I think was poorly designed. The defense should have just stayed on the table as DR instead of built into rage. Then it wouldn't be tucked away in rage where many players forget about it.

Side Note: I prefer a defensive minded tank-ish barbarian threat as much as the next person, I'm not talking about my own personal play style.

The claim being made isn't that resistances are the most important thematically (which varies from person to person), but that they are the most important mathematically, which is pretty much 100% true. Resistances effectively cancel out the penalties of reckless attack, which is one of the best at-will offensive abilities (again, mathematically) available to PHB classes. Allowing a player to get access to that roughly three times as much as they normally would (2 activations per short rest) at level 2 (when they get reckless attack) is, as claimed above, not balanced.

Changing it to "until the end of your next turn" might help, but personally I would make the resistance part a reaction to trigger if you go that route; otherwise it is too easy to waste it entirely and tips back the other way.

Derpaligtr
2018-08-17, 09:09 PM
The claim being made isn't that resistances are the most important thematically (which varies from person to person), but that they are the most important mathematically, which is pretty much 100% true. Resistances effectively cancel out the penalties of reckless attack, which is one of the best at-will offensive abilities (again, mathematically) available to PHB classes. Allowing a player to get access to that roughly three times as much as they normally would (2 activations per short rest) at level 2 (when they get reckless attack) is, as claimed above, not balanced.

Changing it to "until the end of your next turn" might help, but personally I would make the resistance part a reaction to trigger if you go that route; otherwise it is too easy to waste it entirely and tips back the other way.

And again, I've seen plenty of people in real world games completely forget it's a thing to halve the damage. So say it's the most important thing all you want in the white room, but it has been shown to me in the real world, time and time again, that it isn't.

If you're activating it twice per short rest, you aren't getting the bonus damage or the bonus to strength saves or checks. You're just going for defense. This is no different than a monk using Patient Defense and blowing through their ki.

Actually, patient defense is probably a better choice as that boost to AC means things are hitting less (0 < damage). I don't see anyone out there saying that the patient defense is broken.

I could totally see it being a reaction though (as I could with patient defense too). I would love to see more reactions in the game, though just leave players with one per round (for the most part).

JNAProductions
2018-08-17, 09:44 PM
Because Patient Defense lasts one round for one ki point. If the average encounter lasts 3 rounds, you're being defensive for one-third of the encounter.

This lasts one minute-more than enough for the vast majority of encounters.