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View Full Version : Questions On 3.5, Article 3: "Why Is This Level Adjusted?"



Fax Celestis
2007-09-13, 11:01 AM
Level Adjustment is used in the 3.5 game to help equalize stronger races or templates with weaker or nonexistent ones. All races found in the PHB are considered "LA +0".

Level Adjustment in and of itself is better than an experience penalty because it has a larger effect in the long term. In the short term, an experience penalty will only put the player one to two combats behind someone with a lower Level Adjustment, rather than widening the gap as the play goes on. Further, it sets a "minimum starting level".

Another aspect of Level Adjustment is that it features a sliding scale. The more often a creature meets the requirements below, the more of a level adjustment it merits.

Now, the question is, what merits a level adjustment?

Rule 1: I Have Ability Modifiers Totaling +2 Or More
The first method a race acquires Level Adjustment is because of ability modifiers that equal +2 or more. If you will note, all the races presented in the PHB--aside from the Half-Orc, but that's a miserable excuse of a race we won't go into--have ability modifiers equalling +0. Anything greater than this merits a Level Adjustment--more for higher modifiers--to make it easier for those without such a powerful race to keep up.

Rule 2: I Am An Uncommon Type
Type is a key factor in determining Level Adjustment. Certain types--particularly the less common ones--carry with them proficiencies, strong racial HD, or benefits that are hard to find so early on in the game. For instance, the Undead type carries with it the following properties:

* No Constitution score.
* Darkvision out to 60 feet.
* Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).
* Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, and death effects.
* Not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability drain, or energy drain. Immune to damage to its physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), as well as to fatigue and exhaustion effects.
* Cannot heal damage on its own if it has no Intelligence score, although it can be healed. Negative energy (such as an inflict spell) can heal undead creatures. The fast healing special quality works regardless of the creature’s Intelligence score.
* Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless).
* Uses its Charisma modifier for Concentration checks.
* Not at risk of death from massive damage, but when reduced to 0 hit points or less, it is immediately destroyed.
* Not affected by raise dead and reincarnate spells or abilities. Resurrection and true resurrection can affect undead creatures. These spells turn undead creatures back into the living creatures they were before becoming undead.
* Proficient with its natural weapons, all simple weapons, and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
* Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Undead not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Undead are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
* Undead do not breathe, eat, or sleep.
Granted, not all of these are good traits, but a number of these are powerful features. One trait in particular--that of immunity to critical hits--is worth a +5 bonus on armor (Heavy Fortification) in itself.

Rule 3: I Am An Uncommon Size
Sizes smaller than Small and larger than Medium are uncommon and often provide a number of benefits from which a character can become unreasonably effective. The Tiny size, for instance, carries with it a +2 bonus to AC and attack rolls, and a +8 bonus to Hide checks, benefits a stealthier character can make good use of. Similarly, the Large size provides a number of combat benefits, including a better ability to grapple and extended combat reach.

Rule 4: I Get A Bonus Feat
Since characters receive all of 7 feats (8 if human, azurin, or strongheart halfling, more if you use flaws) over the course of their 20 level career, receiving a bonus feat often adds or increases level adjustment. In most cases, feats that are given as bonus feats are not all that powerful--I don't believe I've ever seen a race get a free metamagic feat, for example--but they are often given small "stepping-stone" feats (like Dodge) that are used as prerequisites for a large number of different feats. This would not be an issue but for the fact that it potentially provides early access to some feats, or even early entry into some prestige classes.

Rule 5: I Have Spell-Like Abilities For Spells Of Over 1st Level
Spell-like abilities are useful in that they allow even characters normally without magic to have a modicum of access to it. Granted, you do not get to choose your own spell-like abilities (most of the time), but even prestidigitation has its uses.

Rule 6: I Have An Uncommon Mode Of Movement
Modes of movement such as burrow, glide, fly, climb, or swim not only allow a character to move more easily, but occasionally provide tactical advantages that were not possible before. Flight, for instance, allows a character incredible mobility. Burrow means that nearly any natural surface is no longer a wall, but more of a "blocked pathway."

Second, having movement speeds for uncommon modes of movement means that you're no longer flat-footed when making use of that mode--such as using the Climb skill--and can use the run action while performing it. Even more, most racial movement speeds come attached to racial bonuses to the associated check for that form of movement--Jump for fly, Climb for climb, Swim for swim--which makes the character even more adroit with that mode of movement than he was without it.

Rule 7: I Have A Racial Feature That Mimics Or Augments A Class Or Racial Feature
Powerful Build is a prime example of this: while remaining--technically--Medium size, one is also capable of being Large size when it's beneficial. This, of course, brings a number of advantages to the table, in essence providing all of Large size's benefits with none of the drawbacks.

Another prime example of this is the Illumian's sigils--Illumians, despite not carrying an LA, probably should for the amount of use their sigils can see. Specific combinations allow one to use different statistics as their casting statistic, obtain an increase in caster level, or receive bonus damage in specific instances.

Rule 8: I Have Strong Resistances
Elemental resistances, spell resistance, and damage reduction--no matter how small--greatly increase a character's survivability. Tieflings, for instance, have resistances to a few elements, though these are in low numbers. Still, acid resistance of 5 points prevents all the damage from a 1d6 acid attack nearly all the time, and from a 2d6 acid attack a little less than half the time. At higher levels, this matters less--unless you can get larger resistances--but when your character is most fragile, it matters the most.

Rule 9: I Receive More Than 2 Bonus Power Points
One power point is the equivalent to a first-level spell, cast at first caster level. Three is equivalent to a second-level spell, cast at third caster level--or three first-level spells cast at first caster level. Bonus power points provide a startling amount of extra versatility in a starting psionic character, and the bonus PP remain useful all the way through a character's 20-level career.

Rule 10: I Have Bonuses To Skills Totaling More Than +6
Large skill bonuses--such as a thri-kreen's +30 bonus to Jump checks--frequently can be used to augment a specific build's function with relative ease. For instance, the Tome of Battle discipline Tiger Claw uses Jump checks in nearly half of its maneuvers as a contested check against your target's Armor Class. With a +30 bonus, a thri-kreen will likely not even have to roll to see if he beats the check until his late teen levels, or perhaps even epic if he invests skill points into the Jump skill.

While small bonuses provide an augmentation to both social background and typical behavior, larger bonuses usually make one task far, far too easy.

Calculating Level-Adjustment For Homebrewed Or Altered Creatures Or Templates
Savage Species provides a number of guidelines for how to calculate Level Adjustment, but most of them boil down to "guess." Honestly, I don't have better advice for you. I know when I alter such, I use Vorpal Tribble's CR Calculation method (found here) and subtract one to get a relative Level Adjustment, but common sense is important to remember when calculating Level Adjustment.

Saph
2007-09-13, 11:34 AM
Nice article. Covers a lot of stuff that gets asked frequently. Keep writing them! :)

- Saph

Dr. Weasel
2007-09-13, 12:57 PM
So would you say the Raptoran needs level adjustment? It breaks several of your guidelines (Scaling flight, +10 to Jump checks and some other abilities I don't remember)

Starsinger
2007-09-13, 12:57 PM
Lovely article! But you forgot "The Designers want to discourage my play." Not quite as bad in the MM, but it's horrendous in the Dragonlance Campaign Setting. To keep the party more "standard races" they arbitrarily upped the other races LA by 1 or so, on top of other LA.

Fax Celestis
2007-09-13, 01:05 PM
So would you say the Raptoran needs level adjustment? It breaks several of your guidelines (Scaling flight, +10 to Jump checks and some other abilities I don't remember)

I would say it does, yes, but that is personal opinion.

OneWinged4ngel
2007-09-13, 01:30 PM
LA sucks. I recommend not using it ever, because it's almost never worth it compared to actual class levels. LA practically says "We're going to penalize you really, REALLY heavily for playing this race, so that you'll never, EVER play a monster, or if you do you'll die horribly unless the DM coddles you, you silly person who wants to play outside the box!"

Heck, if we're going to be playing Core Only, you can just look at Polymorph or Alter Self: "I have no LA, but I have your race!" You can take that LA race's wings and strength score and whatever, and not lose a single class level for it.

And of course, there's nothing like getting killed instantly by mook-clearing spells because you have the same HD as those people that get auto-killed by Cloudkill or whatever when the rest of your party (and all your enemies) are using that spell.

Fax Celestis
2007-09-13, 01:34 PM
LA sucks. I recommend not using it ever, because it's almost never worth it compared to actual class levels. LA practically says "We're going to penalize you really, REALLY heavily for playing this race, so that you'll never, EVER play a monster, or if you do you'll die horribly unless the DM coddles you, you silly person who wants to play outside the box!"

Heck, if we're going to be playing Core Only, you can just look at Polymorph or Alter Self: "I have no LA, but I have your race!" You can take that LA race's wings and strength score and whatever, and not lose a single class level for it.

Level Adjustment does suck but it is in place for a reason. However, since it's so poorly defined, and there's no real guidelines that WotC holds itself to, LA as a whole is worse than it would be if it followed strict rules. At least then you could alter the base creature to your own ends without guesswork.

A better alternative to Level Adjustment, though admittedly not much better, are racial hit dice. At least they give you BAB, feats, skills, saves, etc. instead of just a placholder that says "Look, you gain XP as if you were this much higher level."

lord_khaine
2007-09-13, 01:40 PM
i disagree on that, LA is a brilliant idea that makes it so you actualy can have a unusual race like a half celestrial or a werebear in the same group as a human, without wrecking game balance even more than it allready is.

Jasdoif
2007-09-13, 01:40 PM
Nice article! Wouldn't have thought of some of this, like the bonus feat, but it makes sense once it's been said. Although...couldn't some of these be "paid" for with RHD instead of LA?

Also:
One power point is the equivalent to a first-level spell, cast at first caster level. Three is equivalent to a third-level spell, cast at third caster level--or three first-level spells cast at first caster level.Three power points is equivalent to a second-level spell.

Fax Celestis
2007-09-13, 01:42 PM
Nice article! Wouldn't have thought of some of this, like the bonus feat, but it makes sense once it's been said. Although...couldn't some of these be "paid" for with RHD instead of LA?

Some of them can be, yes, but RHD--being better than LA--are probably best at an exchange rate of 3:2...that is, 3 RHD are about equivalent to 2 LA. You can probably get by with a 1:1 ratio, though.

Starsinger
2007-09-13, 01:43 PM
i disagree on that, LA is a brilliant idea that makes it so you actualy can have a unusual race like a half celestrial or a werebear in the same group as a human, without wrecking game balance even more than it allready is.

Yeah.. but having like 4 HD as a level 15 character isn't fun...

Fax Celestis
2007-09-13, 01:46 PM
Yeah.. but having like 4 HD as a level 15 character isn't fun...

Personally, I houserule in my games that half of all LA (rounded up) is instead RHD. This makes LA easier to buy off and a bit easier to stomach.

OneWinged4ngel
2007-09-13, 01:50 PM
Rule 1: I Have Ability Modifiers Totaling +2 Or More
The first method a race acquires Level Adjustment is because of ability modifiers that equal +2 or more. If you will note, all the races presented in the PHB--aside from the Half-Orc, but that's a miserable excuse of a race we won't go into--have ability modifiers equalling +0. Anything greater than this merits a Level Adjustment--more for higher modifiers--to make it easier for those without such a powerful race to keep up. Bollocks. Hobgoblins are a common example of something that should probably be LA +0, because it's pretty much comparable to a dwarf or warforged or human in power. Making it lose an HD, an all-important caster level or other class feature, and skill points for just that extra +2 dex is never going to be mechanically worth it. And of course, that +2 dex is worth less and less if you level up. On top of all that, the difference between a 12 dex and a 14 dex is just the difference of someone being able to ROLL SLIGHTLY HIGHER when generating ability scores. Even though you just severely nerfed yourself for that +2 dex, if you're using the standard score generation system, you may very well not have any better attributes than anyone else. OUCH.



Rule 2: I Am An Uncommon Type
Type is a key factor in determining Level Adjustment. Certain types--particularly the less common ones--carry with them proficiencies, strong racial HD, or benefits that are hard to find so early on in the game. For instance, the Undead type carries with it the following properties:

Granted, not all of these are good traits, but a number of these are powerful features. One trait in particular--that of immunity to critical hits--is worth a +5 bonus on armor (Heavy Fortification) in itself. Don't forget that those "strong racial HD" actually count as levels IN ADDITION to LA. So you're basically saying to punish the player twice over.


Rule 3: I Am An Uncommon Size
Sizes smaller than Small and larger than Medium are uncommon and often provide a number of benefits from which a character can become unreasonably effective. The Tiny size, for instance, carries with it a +2 bonus to AC and attack rolls, and a +8 bonus to Hide checks, benefits a stealthier character can make good use of. Similarly, the Large size provides a number of combat benefits, including a better ability to grapple and extended combat reach. Enlarge Person, a mere first level spell, can be made permanent for a mere 500XP at 9th level. Basically, you just got screwed for choosing to give up a whole level (or maybe even more!) just to be Large.


Rule 4: I Get A Bonus Feat
Since characters receive all of 7 feats (8 if human, azurin, or strongheart halfling, more if you use flaws) over the course of their 20 level career, receiving a bonus feat often adds or increases level adjustment. In most cases, feats that are given as bonus feats are not all that powerful--I don't believe I've ever seen a race get a free metamagic feat, for example--but they are often given small "stepping-stone" feats (like Dodge) that are used as prerequisites for a large number of different feats. This would not be an issue but for the fact that it potentially provides early access to some feats, or even early entry into some prestige classes.

Huh? Even one of the weak classes in D&D, the Fighter, gets a d10 HD, 2+int skill points, +1 BAB, +2 fort, and a CHOOSABLE bonus feat for the investment of a level. If you're getting an LA for a bonus feat, then you're getting SEVERELY gypped.



Rule 5: I Have Spell-Like Abilities For Spells Of Over 1st Level
Spell-like abilities are useful in that they allow even characters normally without magic to have a modicum of access to it. Granted, you do not get to choose your own spell-like abilities (most of the time), but even prestidigitation has its uses. The problem with this is that, say, you get a +1 LA for having Darkness once per day. Then, you're level 9, and realize that you are missing out on 5th level spells because you wanted to get a lame 2nd level 1. Basically, the player gets screwed, because they just gave up a level of exponential advancement that people with real classes have.


Rule 6: I Have An Uncommon Mode Of Movement
Modes of movement such as burrow, glide, fly, climb, or swim not only allow a character to move more easily, but occasionally provide tactical advantages that were not possible before. Flight, for instance, allows a character incredible mobility. Burrow means that nearly any natural surface is no longer a wall, but more of a "blocked pathway."

Second, having movement speeds for uncommon modes of movement means that you're no longer flat-footed when making use of that mode--such as using the Climb skill--and can use the run action while performing it. Even more, most racial movement speeds come attached to racial bonuses to the associated check for that form of movement--Jump for fly, Climb for climb, Swim for swim--which makes the character even more adroit with that mode of movement than he was without it. Of course, I can get all those things with Alter Self and not have to actually lose levels or spell levels or anything for it.


[quote]Rule 8: I Have Strong Resistances
Elemental resistances, spell resistance, and damage reduction--no matter how small--greatly increase a character's survivability. Tieflings, for instance, have resistances to a few elements, though these are in low numbers. Still, acid resistance of 5 points prevents all the damage from a 1d6 acid attack nearly all the time, and from a 2d6 acid attack a little less than half the time. At higher levels, this matters less--unless you can get larger resistances--but when your character is most fragile, it matters the most. Again, an issue of the ability not scaling. If I just got a level taken away for a mere +10 acid resistance (an ability useless against most enemies, and something that people who use acid are usually going to get around easily by just using non-acid attacks). And of course, you get no ability useful in all those cases. And when other people get higher bonuses than that for getting high level class features, you're left in the dust.


Rule 9: I Receive More Than 2 Bonus Power Points
One power point is the equivalent to a first-level spell, cast at first caster level. Three is equivalent to a third-level spell, cast at third caster level--or three first-level spells cast at first caster level. Bonus power points provide a startling amount of extra versatility in a starting psionic character, and the bonus PP remain useful all the way through a character's 20-level career. Ah, so... now we're encouraging some"NERF KALASHTAR!" shouters. And when they start to get LA, they will suddenly be the worst psion race, instead of one of the better psion races. And then no one gets the chance to play these interesting characters if they want to be able to keep up with the pack.

I don't know about you, but I've never seen a problem with a kalashtar getting 20 bonus power points and being LA +0



Calculating Level-Adjustment For Homebrewed Or Altered Creatures Or Templates
Savage Species provides a number of guidelines for how to calculate Level Adjustment, but most of them boil down to "guess." Honestly, I don't have better advice for you. I know when I alter such, I use Vorpal Tribble's CR Calculation method (found here) and subtract one to get a relative Level Adjustment, but common sense is important to remember when calculating Level Adjustment. Ah, so... we take his HD, then add LA equal to CR-1. Say we get a CR 8 10 HD monster, then he has to start at level 17. Great, except that it makes us want to cry blood.


i disagree on that, LA is a brilliant idea that makes it so you actualy can have a unusual race like a half celestrial or a werebear in the same group as a human, without wrecking game balance even more than it allready is.

On the contrary, LA as is is a factor that wrecks game balance, telling people NOT to play an exotic race because they will generally be immensely underpowered (with a scant few exceptions). They even tap on LA for something that's actually about the same power as an LA +0 race (hobgoblins) due to guidelines just like these that Fax gives us.

Fax Celestis
2007-09-13, 01:59 PM
Bollocks. Hobgoblins are a common example of something that should probably be LA +0, because it's pretty much comparable to a dwarf or warforged or human in power. Making it lose an HD, an all-important caster level or other class feature, and skill points for just that extra +2 dex is never going to be mechanically worth it. And of course, that +2 dex is worth less and less if you level up. On top of all that, the difference between a 12 dex and a 14 dex is just the difference of someone being able to ROLL SLIGHTLY HIGHER when generating ability scores. Even though you just severely nerfed yourself for that +2 dex, if you're using the standard score generation system, you may very well not have any better attributes than anyone else. OUCH.

Don't forget that those "strong racial HD" actually count as levels IN ADDITION to LA. So you're basically saying to punish the player twice over.

Enlarge Person, a mere first level spell, can be made permanent for a mere 500XP at 9th level. Basically, you just got screwed for choosing to give up a whole level (or maybe even more!) just to be Large.

The problem with this is that, say, you get a +1 LA for having Darkness once per day. Then, you're level 9, and realize that you are missing out on 5th level spells because you wanted to get a lame 2nd level 1. Basically, the player gets screwed, because they just gave up a level of exponential advancement that people with real classes have.

Of course, I can get all those things with Alter Self and not have to actually lose levels or spell levels or anything for it.

Again, an issue of the ability not scaling. If I just got a level taken away for a mere +10 acid resistance (an ability useless against most enemies, and something that people who use acid are usually going to get around easily by just using non-acid attacks). And of course, you get no ability useful in all those cases. And when other people get higher bonuses than that for getting high level class features, you're left in the dust.

Ah, so... now we've got a "NERF KALASHTAR!" shouter. And when they start to get LA, they will suddenly be the worst psion race, instead of one of the better psion races.

Ah, so... we take his HD, then add LA equal to CR-1. Say we get a CR 8 8 HD monster, then he has to start at level 15. Great.



On the contrary, LA is an idea that wrecks game balance, telling people NOT to play an exotic race because they will generally be immensely underpowered (with a scant few exceptions).

Hey, I never said LA was a good thing, merely that it was in place for a reason. There are better ways to handle it, but they're either fairly complex or have not been introduced to the game in a method that's readily adaptable.

LA's advantage is that it's simple, but this is undermined by it's lack of clarity.

And yes, Kalashtar should probably carry an LA. Not much of one, but they should. So should Whisper Gnomes and Raptorans. Since they don't, however, I'm not going to argue.

OneWinged4ngel
2007-09-13, 02:00 PM
Hey, I never said LA was a good thing, merely that it was in place for a reason. There are better ways to handle it, but they're either fairly complex or have not been introduced to the game in a method that's readily adaptable.

LA's advantage is that it's simple, but this is undermined by it's lack of clarity.

[quote]And yes, Kalashtar should probably carry an LA.

No, they really, REALLY shouldn't. They're not even one of the better LA +0s. If kalashtar should have an LA, then so should humans, dwarves, and warforged (and tons and tons of subraces)

If you give something +1 LA, then they start to suck. If a kalashtar has +1 LA, then he sucks at being a psion. And no one will play them.

Then again, by your own Rule 4, humans should have LA, increasing a reliance on a broken system. I'm sorry, but having a BONUS FEAT is not worth a level. Remember that Fighters, that get +1 BAB, +2 fort, 2 skill points, and a d10 HD out of a level get a bonus feat that they get to CHOOSE, and they're considered a weak class. If getting a bonus feat gives you an LA, then you're *punishing the player.*

Fax Celestis
2007-09-13, 02:04 PM
No, they really, REALLY shouldn't. They're not even one of the better LA +0s. If kalashtar should have an LA, then so should humans, dwarves, and warforged (and tons and tons of subraces)

If you give something +1 LA, then they start to suck. If a kalashtar has +1 LA, then he sucks at being a psion. And no one will play them.

I didn't write this to argue about what should and shouldn't have LA, I wrote this to define why certain races, templates, and monsters have the LA they do. If it were up to me, I'd use a different system, but I didn't make the game and revising it on that scale is too much for one person.

OneWinged4ngel
2007-09-13, 02:05 PM
I didn't write this to argue about what should and shouldn't have LA, I wrote this to define why certain races, templates, and monsters have the LA they do. If it were up to me, I'd use a different system, but I didn't make the game and revising it on that scale is too much for one person.

Well, then you should note that those guidelines suck and that people should never use them when homebrewing, ever.

Also, it's not too much for one person. There are plenty of variants to LA out there. Why not try out Frank's?

MrNexx
2007-09-13, 02:09 PM
On the contrary, LA as is is a factor that wrecks game balance, telling people NOT to play an exotic race because they will generally be immensely underpowered (with a scant few exceptions).

Just out of curiosity, what would be your solution? I agree with your points; LA (without buy-off) is generally not a good solution to balance; with buy-off, you have the difficulty of setting it appropriately for a given starting point. But how would you do it?

OneWinged4ngel
2007-09-13, 02:11 PM
Just out of curiosity, what would be your solution? I agree with your points; LA (without buy-off) is generally not a good solution to balance; with buy-off, you have the difficulty of setting it appropriately for a given starting point. But how would you do it?

I'd have to think about it for a bit. Usually, if it's a low power LA like the hobgoblin, I just say "You don't have LA. Ignore it. It seriously doesn't add enough power to even matter." Or I slightly adjust the race without sacrificing its flavor to make it more mechanically fitting for LA + 0. If it's getting LA from high stats, you can generally just say "Pretend you rolled high on your stats, but just don't put them over X number" or give them a slight penalty to their point buy or whatever. The thing is, this doesn't really ever make them much better (if they are indeed better at all) than the usual Human.

No one's really shown an interest in playing a troll or beholder mage in my games yet, so I've not put forth any serious effort towards creating my own fix for LAs greater than... well, very low.

However, you might want to check out K/Frank's LA fix from Races of War if you want to play a minotaur or something.

Starsinger
2007-09-13, 02:15 PM
Well, then you should note that those guidelines suck and that people should never use them when homebrewing, ever.

Also, it's not too much for one person. There are plenty of variants to LA out there. Why not just use K/Frank's and try to not suck?

What's with all this anti-Fax hostility you have bubbling under the surface? Maybe I'm misreading your words, but you seem to attack anything he posts.

Fax Celestis
2007-09-13, 02:16 PM
Well, then you should note that those guidelines suck and that people should never use them when homebrewing, ever.

Also, it's not too much for one person. There are plenty of variants to LA out there. Why not just use K/Frank's and try to not suck?

These guidelines aren't for homebrewing: they're to define why an existing race has it, not how to set it--except for the short paragraph at the end, and even that is all about "use common sense".

OneWinged4ngel
2007-09-13, 02:16 PM
What's with all this anti-Fax hostility you have bubbling under the surface? Maybe I'm misreading your words, but you seem to attack anything he posts.

I have nothing against Fax, I just am critiquing his work. I do it to everyone I respond to. =P

If he wrote something I thought was well done, I'd praise him instead. *Shrug*

Edit: Also, the thing you quoted was actually a suggestion to clarify his stated intent... not an attack.


These guidelines aren't for homebrewing: they're to define why an existing race has it, not how to set it--except for the short paragraph at the end, and even that is all about "use common sense".

And I felt that was fairly unclear in your first post, hence my suggestion for a clarification. "These guidelines actually totally suck, and shouldn't be used in your own work if you want to design something that actually works well. I'm not actually trying to tell you how to assign LAs. Instead, I'm just trying to point out why WotC tends to assign LAs."

Fax Celestis
2007-09-13, 02:21 PM
And I felt that was fairly unclear in your first post, hence my suggestion for a clarification. "These guidelines actually totally suck, and shouldn't be used in your own work if you want to design something that actually works well. I'm not actually trying to tell you how to assign LAs. Instead, I'm just trying to point out why WotC tends to assign LAs."

See, I thought that was clear from the title of the article: "Why Is This Level Adjusted?" rather than "How Do I Set Level Adjustment?".

OneWinged4ngel
2007-09-13, 02:23 PM
See, I thought that was clear from the title of the article: "Why Is This Level Adjusted?" rather than "How Do I Set Level Adjustment?".

It could stand to be clearer. "Why is this level adjusted" can also imply that something should be level adjusted in that manner.

Fax Celestis
2007-09-13, 02:28 PM
Also, it's not too much for one person. There are plenty of variants to LA out there. Why not try out Frank's?

See, the problem I would run into with creating an LA variant is that LA between two equally powered but disparate races frequently have different existing LAs. There's no consistency in the existing system, and therefore--in order to feel I'd been thorough--I'd have to go through and handle everything on a case-by-case basis.

Really, half of the problem with the LA system is that there's no consistency between LAed creatures. The other half is that LA is a bad system in and of itself, since it's a player-punisher instead of a player-empowerer.

tainsouvra
2007-09-13, 02:44 PM
It could stand to be clearer. "Why is this level adjusted" can also imply that something should be level adjusted in that manner. ...but it shouldn't be read that way. He didn't call it "Why should this be level-adjusted?", it was "Why is this level adjusted?"

Edit: too slow on my reply, needed fixing.

Person_Man
2007-09-13, 02:48 PM
Nice article.

Yeah, LA in 3.5 is a joke. But at least you do a good job of explaining that joke. Hopefully it will be better in 4th ed.

tainsouvra
2007-09-13, 02:52 PM
Backing up a bit to the meta-argument about LA itself, given the level system that the designers wrote themselves into, I honestly don't feel that level adjustments are that poorly done. The only thing I would change is making them a sliding scale of penalty rather than a fixed penalty that's the same regardless of character level--buyoffs help a little with this, but when DMing I tend to just eyeball it and modify the penalty a little to suit the character/campaign, as well as restricting what can be used at what level.

The overall idea doesn't strike me as too bad, but it does require DM intervention, which in my mind makes it an incomplete system. It's not horrifically flawed, just not completed, as far as I'm concerned.

OneWinged4ngel
2007-09-13, 02:59 PM
See, the problem I would run into with creating an LA variant is that LA between two equally powered but disparate races frequently have different existing LAs. I don't see how that matters at all to houseruling. To create an alternative to LA, you completely throw out the whole LA system, so it doesn't matter at all how LA worked before.
There's no consistency in the existing system, and therefore--in order to feel I'd been thorough--I'd have to go through and handle everything on a case-by-case basis. Right. You throw out the existing system, and redo everything. Not too hard. One person can do it. It's been done before.


Really, half of the problem with the LA system is that there's no consistency between LAed creatures. The other half is that LA is a bad system in and of itself, since it's a player-punisher instead of a player-empowerer.

More or less.

Starsinger
2007-09-13, 03:03 PM
Right. You throw out the existing system, and redo everything. Not that hard. One person can do it.

I'm sure Fax has something better to do with his time than to look at the thousands of monsters for 3.X and assign them all LAs under a different system.


It's been done before. So has building the pyramids, and despite having better tools than the Egyptians did you don't see people making more.

Leon
2007-09-13, 03:05 PM
So would you say the Raptoran needs level adjustment? It breaks several of your guidelines (Scaling flight, +10 to Jump checks and some other abilities I don't remember)

I'd argue against a LA for the scaling reason, it gives a nice bonus at low levels but you have to advance before you can get into the good stuff

Fax Celestis
2007-09-13, 03:08 PM
I'm sure Fax has something better to do with his time than to look at the thousands of monsters for 3.X and assign them all LAs under a different system.

...such as create meaningfully interesting creatures that don't have level adjustment? :smallbiggrin:

OneWinged4ngel
2007-09-13, 03:18 PM
I'm sure Fax has something better to do with his time than to look at the thousands of monsters for 3.X and assign them all LAs under a different system.

:smallannoyed:

Please read what I said again. You're completely missing the message. I said "throw out the whole stupid LA system." That doesn't mean "Use LA, but give everyone different numbers." It means "Make an entirely new system and assign it universally. Don't use any aspect of the old LA system, because that system is garbage." It's not building the bloody pyramids. You don't even have to ever open up a monster manual to do it for many variants.

Frank's fix didn't. It had a method that you could just apply to any monster to make it suitable for a PC class. Why should you expect Fax's system to be so much worse?



So has building the pyramids, and despite having better tools than the Egyptians did you don't see people making more.

The pyramids couldn't be done in 5 minutes. An LA alternative (albeit likely a fairly poorly thought out one) can. I have no clue where you get the idea that it takes such ridiculous man hours, because it doesn't.

tainsouvra
2007-09-13, 03:21 PM
I believe the point was that it was a large project which had limited benefits and was unlikely to appeal to Fax when compared to other things he could be doing.

The part about the pyramids wasn't about the scope of the project, it's just saying that "it's been done before" is hardly a reason to do it again.

OneWinged4ngel
2007-09-13, 03:25 PM
I believe the point was that it was a large project which had limited benefits Ah, fixing a broken system that fills out a large portion of the game mechanics and allowing people to actually play monsters is totally not a substantial benefit, then.

Starsinger
2007-09-13, 03:27 PM
:smallannoyed:

Please read what I said again. You're completely missing the message. I said "throw out LA and make a new system." That doesn't mean "reassign different LA using the same stupid, broken system." It means "Make an entirely new system and assign it universally." It's not building the bloody pyramids. You don't even have to ever open up a monster manual to do it for many variants. :smallannoyed:
Please read what I said again. you're completely missing the message. I said "Under a new system." That doesn't mean "reassign different LA using the same stupid, broken system." It means "Make an entirely new system and apply it to monsters with LA now." It's not writing new requirements for "Leap Attack" and requires opening a monster manual to atleast see what abilities do what, exactly.


Frank's fix didn't. It had a method that you could just apply to any monster to make it suitable for a PC class. Why should you expect Fax's system to be so much worse?
Out of curiosity, who is Frank? Do you know him in person? Do you get money every time you endorse his LA system?

tainsouvra
2007-09-13, 03:28 PM
Ah, fixing a broken system and allowing people to actually play monsters is totally not important. The snark really isn't needed, you know. Besides, obviously my interpretation wasn't incorrect, as Fax has already replied that he would rather be creating meaningfully interesting creatures that don't have level adjustment than replacing the LA system itself.

Saph
2007-09-13, 03:29 PM
What's with all this anti-Fax hostility you have bubbling under the surface? Maybe I'm misreading your words, but you seem to attack anything he posts.

Yeah, I'm noticing the same thing.

One-Wing, you might want to work on the tone of your posts. Much of what you say is accurate, but you generally say it in a way that's as abrasive as possible and for no particularly good reason. I'm actually quite impressed that Fax has managed to keep his temper so well. ;)

- Saph

OneWinged4ngel
2007-09-13, 03:30 PM
:smallannoyed:
Please read what I said again. you're completely missing the message. I said "Under a new system." That doesn't mean "reassign different LA using the same stupid, broken system." It means "Make an entirely new system and apply it to monsters with LA now." It's not writing new requirements for "Leap Attack" and requires opening a monster manual to atleast see what abilities do what, exactly. You just said "reassign LAs to everyone." If it's an entirely new system, why would it have LAs? I didn't miss the message. I saw that you said "LAs under a new system." That still indicates that you're using LAs, just under some new system of guidelines that is supposedly more balanced.


Out of curiosity, who is Frank? A game designer. The guy who wrote the Tome of Necromancy, the Dungeonomicon, the Tome of Fiends, and Races of War (which the LA variant is in). Very well known on the WotC boards and the gaming den to the point that the general community recognizes the name. Not sure if that's true here, though.
Do you know him in person? No.
Do you get money every time you endorse his LA system? No. And that was completely uncalled for. There is no reason to insult me for providing a helpful reference to material people might find useful for their games.

Starsinger
2007-09-13, 03:32 PM
You just said "reassign LAs to everyone." If it's an entirely new system, why would it have LAs?

Because I couldn't think of a better sounding term than "fix it" and that sounds, to be quite honest, stupid. So I used the current term for "fixing" monsters with abilities that require them to have some reason to select a PHB race over them.

Fax Celestis
2007-09-13, 03:34 PM
I'm actually quite impressed that Fax has managed to keep his temper so well. ;)

My wife calls me "the one of infinite patience." I tell her she's wrong: I just have more than she does. :smallbiggrin:

tainsouvra
2007-09-13, 03:37 PM
My wife calls me "the one of infinite patience." I tell her she's wrong: I just have more than she does. :smallbiggrin: Well if you're often telling her she's wrong like that, I can see why she's usually short on patience...
:smallbiggrin:
Just ribbing you.

MrNexx
2007-09-13, 03:40 PM
My wife calls me "the one of infinite patience." I tell her she's wrong: I just have more than she does. :smallbiggrin:

Walter Slovotsky: Kirah and I used to argue back and forth about where Janey got this streak of stubbornness from. I said it came from her, she said it came from me. We went round and round for years, until she finally gave up. I guess that means I was right all along, and it does come from her side.
-Joel Rosenberg, in the Guardians of the Flame series (one of about 5 books of the series, so I can't get more specific about which one)

Mewtarthio
2007-09-13, 03:43 PM
A game designer. The guy who wrote the Tome of Necromancy, the Dungeonomicon, the Tome of Fiends, and Races of War (which the LA variant is in). Very well known on the WotC boards and the gaming den to the point that the general community recognizes the name as the smartass game designer who writes things that are awesome but often on a power level many aren't comfortable with. Not sure if that's true here, though. No. No. And that was completely uncalled for. There is no reason to insult me for providing a helpful reference to material people might find useful for their games.

Could you provide a link to Frank's not-LA system?

OneWinged4ngel
2007-09-13, 03:49 PM
Yeah, I'm noticing the same thing.

One-Wing, you might want to work on the tone of your posts. Much of what you say is accurate, but you generally say it in a way that's as abrasive as possible and for no particularly good reason. I'm actually quite impressed that Fax has managed to keep his temper so well. ;)

- Saph

You call it abrasive, I call it honesty. And I believe in the golden rule. I would want others to treat me the same way.

I admit to and apologize for mistakes (what's more frustrating than a guy who never admits he's wrong, no matter the evidence arrayed against him?). I don't intend to anger or insult anyone (you say I'm abrasive, but I put faults on the person's work or argument, or whatever the relevant topic of discussion is). I always do my best to adhere to logic. I always try to be honest and to the point, instead of loading down my posts with hyberbole and ******* like so many forum posters do. And I'm just trying to help with an honest feedback so that people can improve their work. I'd love it if other people treated me the same way. But maybe I'm just weird like that. :smallfrown:

Actually, though some people seem to get the impression in forums that I'm angry, I tend to be compared more to Doctor House type when I'm talking in real life (sarcastic and cynical with flat tones with a strange mix of elitism and kindness). And I tend to have a really long temper (heck, if I didn't, I would storm out of the forums and never return because of posts like the one I'm currently responding to attacking my character for sacrificing my time trying to be helpful)

OneWinged4ngel
2007-09-13, 03:52 PM
Could you provide a link to Frank's not-LA system?

Races of War:
On WotC: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=681572
On The Gaming Den: http://bb.bbboy.net/thegamingden-viewthread?forum=1&thread=723

He actually gives 3 different methods for converting monsters (though one is reserved for his Tome of Tiamat, which hasn't come out yet).

(Note: K and Frank tend to balance their new classes (like the Races of War Fighter) against an intelligently played straightclass transmuter wizard, which is a lot more powerful than a lot of people will give it credit for. While there are a lot of good reasons this makes sense (which, incidentally, they've named in a few sources), a lot of people, including me, tend to not like the paradigm he chooses for balance. Myself, I prefer to go for the Psychic Warrior or Tome of Battle level of power when I'm houseruling stuff. Still, all of their articles are definitely worth a read, because there's a lot of interesting, useful, and insightful material there.)

StickMan
2007-09-13, 04:05 PM
I for one Vote that Rich puts this and perhaps the other two, which I have not read yet, in the gaming section, of the website.

Merlin the Tuna
2007-09-13, 04:10 PM
These guidelines aren't for homebrewing: they're to define why an existing race has it, not how to set it--except for the short paragraph at the end, and even that is all about "use common sense"....Except that homebrew work is expected to at least attempt to follow the same rules and guidelines as published work. If you're going to say that these guidelines aren't for homebrewing, you're more or less saying "Hobgoblins have earned their LA+1, but if you make another race that has the exact same stats, they don't need LA+1 because they're homebrew." The entire idea of homebrewing is that the system is sensible enough that you can make your own things for it without causing things to break down. As soon as "Published in a WotC MM" gets added to the list of LA-inducing racial traits, you've kind of kicked it in the pants.

The system is dumb. There have been attempts to salvage it -- YabaTheWhat's feature points (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=667683) being one lengthy (and fairly confusing) way of handling things -- but "This system is dumb; here's how to keep using it" isn't really that helpful.

Edit: Oh, and on the subject of Frank Trollman's work... He knows the system well. Really well. And much of his fluff work hits home. He's responsible for a number of pretty solid guides, as well. But his homebrew is, indeed, completely over the top. Ostensibly his goal is to balance things with an intelligent (or arguably, hyperintelligent) Wizard, but he often goes well past this, as well. As in, 9th-level-spells-at-will past it. In the end, I'd recommend against using the brunt of his mechanical hoohah unless you really want more battles to end in round one.

OneWinged4ngel
2007-09-13, 04:12 PM
...Except that homebrew work is expected to at least attempt to follow the same rules and guidelines as published work. Hence, the implication, and need for clarification.

blue_fenix
2007-09-13, 04:27 PM
The article as intended by Fax, that is, an explanation of the criteria WoTC uses to determine LA, is excellently written. I applaud you, Fax Celestis.

As for the discussion as to how the LA rules should be changed, if at all (which is really not related to the original intent of the thread, oh well), I think it is important to point out that LA is a much much bigger penalty to low level characters than to higher level ones. Also, it is incorrect to say that a player is automatically screwed for being behind other characters in level or for losing a caster level, for two reasons - 1) not all players consider power the most important aspect of their character, and 2) DM's should and often do adjust the difficulty of the encounters they run to be suitable to the party (i.e. if the DM likes half the party to die in every encounter, he should write encounters that do that. If he wants the party to survive, but be challenged, again he should write encounters that do that, not by fudging mid-encounter but by planning.) Finally, a fix for the LA system would require either designing a new mechanic instead of LA, or carefully adjusting the LA for every single currently existing race in light of the overall meta-game.

I would like to see a system that adds a standardized penalty for playing races more powerful than the standard PHB races, scaled to relative power, that fades away as characters advance in level, considering how much more powerful most racial abilities are at low level relative to high level. The best example of such a system (flawed though it may be) that I have seen is LA with the Unearthed Arcana buy-down rules. One of the key things here that some people forget is that once a character buys down their LA, they start gaining XP faster than the rest of the party due to being lower-level. Calculated correctly, this allows them to catch up. For example, in a campaign I am running, which started at level 3, one player decided to play a level 2 tiefling. At level 4, he bought off his LA, and began gaining XP faster than the other players. Now the party is at level 7, and he is only a small amount of XP behind, which I plan to remedy by giving him a short solo adventure. Careful DM'ing won't fix everything, but it sure does help.

I would also like for at least some kinds of racial hit die to stack with levels of spell casting classes in order to reduce the massive penalty to casters normally brought on by racial HD and LA.

OneWinged4ngel
2007-09-13, 04:35 PM
As for the discussion as to how the LA rules should be changed, if at all (which is really not related to the original intent of the thread, oh well), I think it is important to point out that LA is a much much bigger penalty to low level characters than to higher level ones. I disagree here. I think that LA gets worse as you get to a higher level, because the LA numbers tend to be chosen to be at least somewhat usable at the first level you can get it. Of course, none of those abilities from all those LA levels scale, so you just sacrificed your geometric progressions that real classes get, and start to fall behind very quickly. So, that 1/day cloudkill you had at level X might have been fairly cool, but it's not so great when you're level 20 and you lost 6 levels for it.


or carefully adjusting the LA for every single currently existing race in light of the overall meta-game. I believe it would be quite impossible for this to work, due to the nature of how ECL mechanics actually work (and that none of those abilities you got from your LA, like that Darkness SLA, scale in any form.)

tainsouvra
2007-09-13, 04:47 PM
I disagree here. I think that LA gets worse as you get to a higher level, because the LA numbers tend to be chosen to be at least somewhat usable at the first level you can get it. It can go either way depending on the extent of the level adjustment and what level the characters begin at. In general, a level adjustment that's more than half of your levels will likewise be a big factor at first and decrease in significance as you advance, since your class abilities will grow to fill in for what you missed out on with the adjustment--but on the other hand, the value of the abilities that LA gave will also tend to decrease as well. That means big (compared to starting level) LA's will seem to get less of a burden in terms of cutting out class abilities as you advance, since your class abilities get the chance to catch up, while small LA's will seem to get bigger as you advance, since the small bonuses that gave that small LA will become trivial in time. Of course, that does leave the occasional large-LA race which has an ability that quickly becomes trivial, but frankly that's just a poor race to play from a mechanical standpoint, LA or no--the DM should probably be modifying something for the player here.

Dr. Weasel
2007-09-13, 04:54 PM
Even though level adjustment is the worst thing casters and manifesters (and other classes with decent class abilities) can have, it does tend to scale favorably for non-casters with weak class abilities like the [Insert the usual weak-class suspects here]

MrNexx
2007-09-13, 04:54 PM
I would like to see a system that adds a standardized penalty for playing races more powerful than the standard PHB races, scaled to relative power, that fades away as characters advance in level, considering how much more powerful most racial abilities are at low level relative to high level.

-10% XP per current point of LA (not RHD); you might go -10% for the first LA, and -5% for every subsequent point of LA, since that's a bit less harsh. LA is also used as a gauge for when it's appropriate to bring the character into a game; anything with an LA of 1 is appropriate for level 1, LA 2 is appropriate for a 2nd level game, etc..

So, in a level 1 game, you can play a Hobgoblin. You'll have a -10% penalty to your XP for your career, but you'll advance pretty close to normal, and get XP as a character of your level. In a level 3 game, you could choose to play a half-dragon, and would have a -30% penalty to XP (-20% under my alternate suggestion).

It's a bit kludgey and dirty, but it keeps LA creatures somewhat penalized, but without sacrificing character levels for them.

woc33
2007-09-14, 01:20 AM
Another way to fix LA is also give the character "special" LA levels, that don't count as HD or CL. The character gets a commoner level for each LA point but does not get skills or a bonus to hp from con to that level, in addition to feats and the bonus to abilities. It does, however, get one of four options:
Normal spellcaster progression, full BAB, d8 to hp and adding con to the current level, or 4+int skill point. If the above is too powerful they could get half spellcaster proggression, 3/4 BAB, only d8 to hp or only 0+int skill points (could be only 4 skill points instead).

OneWinged4ngel
2007-09-14, 02:01 AM
It does, however, get one of three options:
Normal spellcaster progression, full BAB, d8 to hp and adding con to the current level, or 4+int skill point. If the above is too powerful they could get half spellcaster proggression, 3/4 BAB, only d8 to hp or only 0+int skill points (could be only 4 skill points instead).

Those options are *way* unbalanced against each other. Spellcaster progression > all. By a lot. In fact, it's pretty much all of the game's most powerful classes' amazing class features, all in one neat little term.

woc33
2007-09-14, 02:30 AM
Those options are *way* unbalanced against each other. Spellcaster progression > all. By a lot. In fact, it's pretty much all of the game's most powerful classes' amazing class features, all in one neat little term.

You get only one of these 4 (yeah 4, it was a typo, i know...), not all. It needs balancing but it fixes the problems LA issues, casters lacking caster levels because of LA, meatshields lacking hp or BAB due to having a high LA or skill monkeys lacking their precious skill points due to having a high LA. If it is all used with good DM judgement it could make a good way to fix LA.

OneWinged4ngel
2007-09-14, 04:11 AM
You get only one of these 4 (yeah 4, it was a typo, i know...), not all.

Exactly. And one of those 4 choices is far, far better than the other 3. That's what I said the first time. :smallconfused:

Artemician
2007-09-14, 05:16 AM
On the subject of LA fixes.. I thought that I'd share the one that my group uses. I can't remember exactly where we got it from, just that one guy told us about it, and next thing everyone was using it.


In games where level adjustments are used, destiny levels may be used instead. Basically, instead of a Level Adjustments, a player with a level adjustment gains levels in the 'destiny' class. Destiny levels are used to help reduce the 'pain' of having a high level adjustment, and makes templates accessible at low levels. Destiny levels count as class levels for purposes of calculating level based effects, or those of hit dice. However, destiny level's hit dice ALWAYS stays at a d4, even if templates would change it (typically by becoming undead). Destiny levels cannot be taken by gaining enough experience to level up, they must be acquired via a level adjustment. Destiny levels do not replace racial hit dice.Now available with most good campaigns and PvP! (ask DM before using).

Hit Dice: d4
Skill Points: 2+Int Mod
Skill Points at First Level: 4x (2+Int Mod)
Class Skills: Destiny levels grant no class skills.

Class Features:
The following are class features of the Destiny class

Destiny: At 2nd, 4th, 6th, 8th, 10th, 12th, 14th, 16th, 18th and 20th class levels, a 'Destiny' is gained. This, in effect, grants a virtual 'level' in a class, gaining class features. Virtual 'levels' granted by Destiny stack with actual levels for determining class features, including spells per day or 'lay on hands'. Destinies do not grant the hit dice of the class where 'destinies' are invested, nor the skill points.

{table=head]Level | BaB | Saves (all three) | Special
1|+0|+0|
2|+1|+0|Destiny
3|+1|+1|+2
4|+2|+1|Destiny
5|+2|+1|
6|+3|+2|Destiny

N|Poor|Poor|Destiny every two levels[/table]

Example of Destiny levels in action:

Aajsfsjdkf the Pixie Fighter 2 has 4 destiny levels (due to his +4 LA) and an Int score of 14. He thus has a Base Attack Bonus of +4, a base fortitude save of +4, a base reflex save of +1, and a base will save of +1. He also has 2 fighter bonus feats, and 2 'destinies'. Should he invest both in Fighter levels, he will gain another bonus feat (and qualify for weapon specialization), and have an effective fighter level of 4. If he invests both of them in an unrelated class, like a sorcerer, he gains the ability to cast spells as a 1st level sorcerer, and the ability to summon a familiar. He also has 3 normal feats from gaining levels, and 36 skill points.

Assuming he invests both destinies in fighter levels, and gains another two levels, he gains another fighter bonus feat, and qualifies for fighter feats as a 6th level fighter.


Thoughts?

woc33
2007-09-14, 05:27 AM
On the subject of LA fixes.. I thought that I'd share the one that my group uses. I can't remember exactly where we got it from, just that one guy told us about it, and next thing everyone was using it.



Thoughts?

That's exactly what i was trying to achieve, thank you :smallsmile:

btw, a fix to the system i presented:
the character will have 3 options: half proggression spell-casting, 1d8 hp and 3/4 BAB or 4+int skill points and 2 (or 1) good saves. Seems more balanced.

Roog
2007-09-14, 07:00 AM
On the subject of LA fixes...


How about using a single pool of points for paying for starting stats and LA (and possibly other useful stuff)?

Then, after character generation, ignore LA.

mostlyharmful
2007-09-14, 07:07 AM
A low LA race is manigable, even as a caster, just so long as the DM allows LA buy offs. +1 or +2 can be earned off within the life of most games and then you can earn xp faster then the rest of the group with your lower ECL:smallbiggrin: Otherwise they do turn into a big honking albatross around your neck:smallannoyed:

Indon
2007-09-14, 11:30 AM
Those options are *way* unbalanced against each other. Spellcaster progression > all. By a lot. In fact, it's pretty much all of the game's most powerful classes' amazing class features, all in one neat little term.

-Firstly, spellcaster progression is the big reason _why_ people don't like LA. An alternate system to LA that doesn't allow for more casting levels won't be favored by people who play casters anyway. So your LA-replacing systems are going to have spellcaster levels.

-Secondly, only a full caster (and maybe a bard) would take spellcasting progression; the same people who don't pick LA's because they don't get spellcasting progression. Everyone else will get something nice from LA, though, but they aren't going to get something comparable with spellcasting because they wouldn't get anything like that even if they had no LA.

Techonce
2007-09-14, 12:06 PM
Talk about learning something...

Reading things here, explains why I didn't usually allow LA adjusted creatures since I thought some of them were too powerful.

I had misread how you figure out the ECL for some of the creatures. For example for an ogre, I looked at the LA of +2 and didn't add in the Racial HD.

So I never allowed Ogres since only a +2 was a bit light.

As for my thoughts on LA...

It depends on the creature and more specifically the campaign. Usually the players have picked creatures with an LA for flavor, and we would work something out then if the power levels did not match.

OneWinged4ngel
2007-09-14, 12:07 PM
-Secondly, only a full caster (and maybe a bard) would take spellcasting progression; the same people who don't pick LA's because they don't get spellcasting progression. Everyone else will get something nice from LA, though, but they aren't going to get something comparable with spellcasting because they wouldn't get anything like that even if they had no LA.

This is completely untrue. I would always pick spell progression, regardless of class. LA +10 means I get 10 free levels of Wizard, vs just some darned skill progression? Sign me up!

You're suggesting to give away *free levels of an exponential power scaling class's class features* vs just a handful of some linear scaling +1s to attack or skill points. It's a no-brainer.

Jasdoif
2007-09-14, 12:41 PM
You're suggesting to give away *free levels of an exponential power scaling class's class features* vs just a handful of some linear scaling +1s to attack or skill points. It's a no-brainer.Indeed. If it was only caster level it might prove a bit more of decision...a bit...but full normal progression, spell levels and all? It might be better to just get rid of casting classes entirely and give every creature a casting progression based on its ECL instead....

Indon
2007-09-14, 01:03 PM
This is completely untrue. I would always pick spell progression, regardless of class. LA +10 means I get 10 free levels of Wizard, vs just some darned skill progression? Sign me up!

You're suggesting to give away *free levels of an exponential power scaling class's class features* vs just a handful of some linear scaling +1s to attack or skill points. It's a no-brainer.

-Name an LA +10 race that doesn't have RHD. So congrats, your ECL 20+ Archon/Dragon gets to have Wizard 10, maybe Wiz 11 spellcasting? If anything, that means there's less chance of him falling hopelessly behind the party that has _real_ class levels.

In fact, with very few exceptions (and I can't think of any which isn't a template), LA 3+ races have RHD, which also stonewall caster progression.

-Even otherwise, it's not the fault of the LA system that some classes progress exponentially while others progress linearly.

-And even still, it's only a no-brainer if you are _actually a member of a caster class_. What would a Troll Fighter or Ranger 14 care about 6 levels of Wizard (or, for that matter, Ranger) casting? Now, there are a couple exceptions; a Rakshasa, for instance, would want Sorceror progression. But short of RHD casters (excluding dragons, as you can't _play_ a sufficiently powerful Dragon to get good Sorceror casting), there's no problem with the system, and an exception could probably be made for those.

Kaelik
2007-09-14, 01:42 PM
I don't know, If I got casting for it. I'd start stacking on every LA + template I could find.

Grab something with +LA and a plus to int score. Make it a Half X/Half Y/Lolth Blessed Whatever.

Actually, just grab an Ogre Mage, those things have a few racial HD and a good bonus to Con. Then make it a half Dragon Immune to Acid. Then make it another Half Dragon Immune to Fire. Now you have Str +26 Regeneration against everything you aren't immune to, and you have fly at will, and level 10 Wizard spells. (Or Cleric since you might as well Zilla with your +26 Str.)

Indon
2007-09-14, 02:15 PM
I don't know, If I got casting for it. I'd start stacking on every LA + template I could find.


Yes, multiple, stacked low-LA templates would be potentially exploitable. I can only hope that the DM has the foresight to prevent half-dragon/half-dragon/half-dragon/half-clay golem vampire lich wizards.

Serenity
2007-09-14, 03:23 PM
Why, why, why does LA not inherently account for RHD? If you tell me that Ogres have a +2 LA, that damn well ought to mean that a 1st level Ogre Fighter=3rd level human fighter. But, no, he's really the equivalent of a 7th level fighter because of RHD, and the casual reader might never realize that.Why not just have LA include RHD, and say it has a +6 LA? Anything else seems needlessly confusing.

Starbuck_II
2007-09-14, 03:57 PM
I don't know, If I got casting for it. I'd start stacking on every LA + template I could find.

Grab something with +LA and a plus to int score. Make it a Half X/Half Y/Lolth Blessed Whatever.

Actually, just grab an Ogre Mage, those things have a few racial HD and a good bonus to Con. Then make it a half Dragon Immune to Acid. Then make it another Half Dragon Immune to Fire. Now you have Str +26 Regeneration against everything you aren't immune to, and you have fly at will, and level 10 Wizard spells. (Or Cleric since you might as well Zilla with your +26 Str.)

Huh?
How are you dual 1/2 dragon?

Your parents are
a. dragon + 1/2 Dragon (race you are)
b. 1/2 Dragon + 1/2 Dragon
c. ?

I'd like to hear this story. Odd that 1/2 Dragon can be applied to Dragons (your new race).



Why, why, why does LA not inherently account for RHD? If you tell me that Ogres have a +2 LA, that damn well ought to mean that a 1st level Ogre Fighter=3rd level human fighter. But, no, he's really the equivalent of a 7th level fighter because of RHD, and the casual reader might never realize that.Why not just have LA include RHD, and say it has a +6 LA? Anything else seems needlessly confusing.

Because RHD give you stuff, LA doesn't.
ECL is total RHD + LA + X.
They assumed you could figure this out.

Ulzgoroth
2007-09-14, 04:08 PM
LA is the difference between character level and ECL. Character level is the total of your hit dice.

Kioran
2007-09-14, 04:15 PM
LA is a mechanic that relies, to a very large extent, on balancing power with HD - which means that, in the current "Class" based mechanics, LA simply sucks too bad for anything. That being said, if you Focus on HD-effect things like conventional Fighting, Grappling or skillz, you might do fine with LA, and can actually function. I´ve found that, at lvl 16+, in a 28 Point-buy Core campaign, an Erynies can be a decent secondary Fighter/Skillmonkey PC - on par with Fighters, Monks, Rangers or Barbarian.
Of course, Clerics, Druids, Sorcerors and Wizards laught at her, and even the Rogue might pull out ahead, but for the Core martial classes it works.

That is, mainly, because they fight like miniature variants of "bruiser" monsters, and incorporating base "bruisers" (Ogres, Gnoll, or, yes, Erynies) into these builds makes sense - and is relatively balanced. Seriously, try "fighting stupid", and it works a lot better
Everyone else, however, "fights clever", using Rogues or martial adepts if not casters. That´s when this breaks down.

brian c
2007-09-14, 04:51 PM
Nice article.

Yeah, LA in 3.5 is a joke. But at least you do a good job of explaining that joke. Hopefully it will be better in 4th ed.

Someone has probably already said this already, but I think that's what the new racial abilities in 4th ed are supposed to do, spread out the abilities over 20 (well, 30) levels instead of giving them all to you with a LA, and then the abilities not being worth the LA later in the game.

Kaelik
2007-09-14, 05:41 PM
Huh?
How are you dual 1/2 dragon?

Your parents are
a. dragon + 1/2 Dragon (race you are)
b. 1/2 Dragon + 1/2 Dragon
c. ?

I'd like to hear this story. Odd that 1/2 Dragon can be applied to Dragons (your new race).


Because RHD give you stuff, LA doesn't.
ECL is total RHD + LA + X.
They assumed you could figure this out.

Well first of all, it's a template. Despite the name it can be applied to most anything. Secondly, if you really want some fun look at the articles for tough opponents in the 3.5 Archive. There is one set about creatures that should not exist (but can according to the rules) that featured a White Dragon with the Half Dragon template applied. White Dragon/Half Red Dragon works out pretty well for a tough opponent.

Secondly, never pay attention to the Half X part of the name. A Half Orc/Half Dragon/ Half Fiend is still all those things.

Lokey
2007-09-14, 06:41 PM
I'd like to hear this story. Odd that 1/2 Dragon can be applied to Dragons (your new race).
Someone's not playing RAW (which is inarguably the only correct way to play). :smallfurious:

Don't let your DM get away with things like house-rules, forcing you to roleplay or disallowing Frostburn or worse the Dragon book if you want to be Pun-Pun. And if they don't want to let you run your paragon, exalted, yuan ti, ogre mage, Firbolg giant red dragon cleric of Garl Glittergold when the rest of the party is level 1 humans, they're just out to get you.

Kaelik
2007-09-14, 07:34 PM
Someone's not playing RAW (which is inarguably the only correct way to play). :smallfurious:

Who's not plating RAW? I mean besides that we are talking about changing LA?

OneWinged4ngel
2007-09-14, 07:47 PM
-Name an LA +10 race that doesn't have RHD. So congrats, your ECL 20+ Archon/Dragon gets to have Wizard 10, maybe Wiz 11 spellcasting? If anything, that means there's less chance of him falling hopelessly behind the party that has _real_ class levels.

And 10 wizard levels will ALWAYS be better than 40 skill points. At the very least, you're getting some notable buffing that can synergize well with your other classes. Regardless of whether you actually take other classes that advance spellcasting. As such, the houserule is extremely unbalanced *against itself.*

Serenity
2007-09-14, 10:51 PM
LA is the difference between character level and ECL. Character level is the total of your hit dice.

I understand that now, but I've probably made a handful of technically illegal characters because it wasn't clear. Why can't they just say 'an Ogre is effectively a sixth level character' instead of splitting the numbers like that?

Jasdoif
2007-09-14, 11:08 PM
I understand that now, but I've probably made a handful of technically illegal characters because it wasn't clear. Why can't they just say 'an Ogre is effectively a sixth level character' instead of splitting the numbers like that?Certain things, like getting a feat every third level and getting an ability score boost every fourth, are determined by your character level, not your ECL. The distinction must be made, because racial hit dice count towards your character level and level adjustment does not.



D20 Modern's Urban Arcana uses LA in a similar way to what you suggest: CR is equal to character level + level adjustment, without any regard to racial hit dice. But then, there aren't like D&D's racial hit dice: creatures like bugbears get "extra hit dice" and a species bonus to attack rolls. There's no actual increase to BAB, and there's no mention of a bonus to saves or skills; so they aren't as valuable as RHD in the first place.

Zincorium
2007-09-14, 11:13 PM
I understand that now, but I've probably made a handful of technically illegal characters because it wasn't clear. Why can't they just say 'an Ogre is effectively a sixth level character' instead of splitting the numbers like that?

Because then people would assume that the skill rank limits, feats, and ability increases would happen as normal for a 6th level character. And they don't. So it's a complexity vs. accuracy thing. Most people who play D&D have better than average reading comprehension, so I can see why they erred on the side of dividing it up.

What they should have done is better explain exactly what those numbers mean and give them more differentiation name-wise.

My personal issue with LA is that it has a very crude measuring system, everything is measured only in LA or racial hit dice, there are no small, easier to adjust pieces to add or remove.

According to most of the guidelines for LA wotc has made, a number of natural weapons greater than the number of attacks a fighter can make at that level is always worth an LA of one or more. A whole range of possibilities, some of which can be combined with regular armed attacks or not, some of which are primary or secondary, and there is only one yardstick to group them under.

TheOOB
2007-09-14, 11:55 PM
Personally, I see little point in LA, it promotes sloppy game balancing, and any significant amount of LA (say 3 or higher) makes the race essentially unplayable after a certain point.

The problem with LA races is that while they do give cool abilities (drow spell resistance anyone), the loss of hp, BAB, base save bonuses, skill points, and class abilities(especially spellcasting) is never worth it in the long run (and rarely worth it in the short term). You can make the coolest race in the world, and by slapping an LA on it for "balance" reasons you basically make it available only to NPCs and masochistic players. Whats more powerful, a level 3 high elf cleric, or a level 1 drow cleric, the high elf by a large margin, the drow would have trouble surviving a single attack at 3rd level with 8+con mod hp. Even at level 20/18 the high elf cleric gets more spells which are way better then anything the drow has to offer. This problem is somewhat lessened by races who's abilities scale with level (half-celestial/fiend and to a lesser extent drow are examples), but the problem still remains that the abilities you are gaining for the LA are only worth it for a small section of levels when the abilities are still powerful enough to matter, but you have enough class levels to survive. For many races this period is only 1 or 2 levels.

This is not to say you can't make races that are more powerful then the standard races, but LA isn't the way to do it. From the get go, hit dice is a wonderful balancing mechanic, unlike LA, hit dice gives you BAB, hit points, skill points, ect, and the racial abilities instead act like replacement class abilities. The player isn't giving up levels for a powerful race so much as making their first x levels level is their race. This can be further expanded by the use of racial feats and prestige classes, allowing a character who wishes to improve their racial features to spend resources to do so without feeling like they are weakening their character for it. Using these methods to balance a race is more difficult then just slapping an LA on it and calling it good, but overall it makes a more balanced, dynamic, and useful race. Given, this process will be, in theory, easier in 4e, since every class will have access to "powers" there will be more there to balance your races levels in.

Thrawn183
2007-09-15, 08:21 AM
Fax, would you mind adding a blurb specific to level adjustment buyoff? It might fit into a different article, but I can't read your mind and know where you're going with these.

AtomicKitKat
2007-09-15, 09:07 AM
Thinking about it, instead of LA, we use a system based on LA.

For LA+1, you take a 10% XP penalty till you get 1 more class level(none for the 1st level).
LA+2, 20% for 2.
Up till about LA+5(50% less for 5). Beyond that, it's really impossible to balance the party, coupled with being ridiculous(-110% XP for 11 levels at LA+11.:smallbiggrin:).

Ulzgoroth
2007-09-15, 09:36 AM
For spellcasters, racial hit dice pretty much as bad as LA. The difference between the level 18 drow cleric and the level 20 LA 0 cleric is spellcasting more than a couple skill ranks and hit dice, or a couple points of BaB (and by that point, at least the problem of being behind a full spell level has gone away).

Eliminating LA in favor of RHD may make LA races more viable for fighting types and to some degree skill-monkeys. But those are already the roles that can most tolerate LA. All the things they loose to LA, and get back some of from racial hit dice, are things that the bonuses of the LA race could have made up for already. Only a very few races offer any element of that for casters. If you get a good ability bonus you may be casting at a better DC than your un-adjusted counterparts, but your spells are still weaker.

Substituting that way also takes away the best hope of the LA caster, too. RHD buy off just doesn't make any sense, whereas LA buyoff already has fairly playable rules.

In addition, RHD mean more than an inconvenience for PCs. If you give drow even one non-replaceable racial HD, it means that no drow is as fragile as the average elf. I don't think you want to do that to every LA race.

Quietus
2007-09-15, 10:21 AM
I'd say that given the nature of LA, it isn't really a major problem - the biggest issue with it is how it leaves a player behind in terms of HP. There's a very easy fix to that : Give them some bloody HP for their LA's!

For example, let's say I wanted to play a Hobgoblin fighter. 2nd level character, I have all the stats of a 1st-level fighter, and an LA +1. However, I can't fulfill my party role, because I don't have the hit points to do so. No worries - my clear primary class is Fighter, so give me a d10+con worth of HP for that one LA. No BAB, no skills, none of that... but it fixes the issue of "I can't do anything, or I die!". And outside of the caster level problems, that's the biggest issue people seem to have with LA.

::Edit:: This also works nicely into the LA buydown, in that you can still buy off the LA +1, just buy it into a Fighter level. You keep the hit points you had, and are paying to change the LA into a set of class features.

Starbuck_II
2007-09-15, 10:45 AM
I'd say that given the nature of LA, it isn't really a major problem - the biggest issue with it is how it leaves a player behind in terms of HP. There's a very easy fix to that : Give them some bloody HP for their LA's!

For example, let's say I wanted to play a Hobgoblin fighter. 2nd level character, I have all the stats of a 1st-level fighter, and an LA +1. However, I can't fulfill my party role, because I don't have the hit points to do so. No worries - my clear primary class is Fighter, so give me a d10+con worth of HP for that one LA. No BAB, no skills, none of that... but it fixes the issue of "I can't do anything, or I die!". And outside of the caster level problems, that's the biggest issue people seem to have with LA.

::Edit:: This also works nicely into the LA buydown, in that you can still buy off the LA +1, just buy it into a Fighter level. You keep the hit points you had, and are paying to change the LA into a set of class features.

Nah, give racial hp hps': d8 for humaniods.

So Hobgoblin gets d8+ con hps for his LA. No Bab or HD.
So a Level 1 fighter Hobgoblin: has 10 (first level is max) + con + d8+con.

But I like the idea.

Quietus
2007-09-15, 08:09 PM
Nah, give racial hp hps': d8 for humaniods.

So Hobgoblin gets d8+ con hps for his LA. No Bab or HD.
So a Level 1 fighter Hobgoblin: has 10 (first level is max) + con + d8+con.

But I like the idea.

That works too. Easier to handle, as well. You'd just have to keep track of how many HP you're getting from that racial HD, so that if/when you buy it into a "real" level, you can accurately change your hit points.

Not an issue for my games, we just use max always. :smallbiggrin:

McMindflayer
2007-09-16, 03:37 AM
I believe Fax forgot a rule, But maybe I'm misreading one. Please correct and forgive me if I'm wrong. and yes, it will be poorly written. I'm doing this more on the fly than sitting and trying to figure out all the right words and make it sound sophisticated like the OP.

Rule X: More attacks
If you receive more attacks in a full round attack than a fighter does of the same level, you gain +1 La for each additional attack over the original (I believe)

Essentially, If you have a character with 3 arms at level one. He gets one extra attack with a weapon. Which is more than a fighter recieves at level 1, so he gains a +1 LA.

AtomicKitKat
2007-09-16, 12:07 PM
I believe Fax forgot a rule, But maybe I'm misreading one. Please correct and forgive me if I'm wrong. and yes, it will be poorly written. I'm doing this more on the fly than sitting and trying to figure out all the right words and make it sound sophisticated like the OP.

Rule X: More attacks
If you receive more attacks in a full round attack than a fighter does of the same level, you gain +1 La for each additional attack over the original (I believe)

Essentially, If you have a character with 3 arms at level one. He gets one extra attack with a weapon. Which is more than a fighter recieves at level 1, so he gains a +1 LA.

Sidenote: RHD factor into this. If you have RHD, it is also included when calculating your "effective Fighter level for purposes of max number of attacks before getting an LA". Eg. If a Troll(6RHD) only had Claw+Claw and no Bite, it would not get an LA for the Natural Weapons(still get for being Large, high Natural Armour, Regeneration).

Leon
2007-09-16, 07:45 PM
Ogrun from IK have that Bonus d8 hp (Still causes confusion as the early printings labled it as +1 HD)