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Peregrine
2007-09-15, 01:00 PM
Hereís a simple idea for a house rule: bonus skill points for physical skills (those based on Str, Dex and Con) are allocated based on Con rather than Int.

Pros: Itís more realistic. Where Int lets you learn more effectively in your mental skills, Con lets you train harder in your physical skills. Skill-starved tanks are now less so.
Cons: Con, so rarely a dump stat, just got better, though not as much as you might think. Skill monkeys (particularly the Dex-reliant rogues) are now liable to have fewer skill points for some key skills, since they traditionally favour Int over Con (but thatís largely because it gave skill points). It doesnít necessarily suit all physical skills (e.g. Open Lock, Concentration), though it suits the rest far better than Int did.

Actually, Iíve come up with some questions I need to address for my own house rule now: Do you gain +Int and +Con? This could be a bit muchÖ but then, many people bemoan the lack of skill points, and this would probably free up more points for people to take Knowledge, Craft and Profession skills.

What, then, if you have a penalty? Having a Con bonus lets you put more skill points into physical skills; would having a Con penalty limit the number of physical skill points you can allocate? Should your class skill points be allocated to physical vs mental skills in a certain ratio, and your Int and Con add to or subtract from this quota? (For instance, say a rogue gets 50:50 physical and mental skill points, that is, 4 physical and 4 mental, plus or minus Con and Int. A certain rogue has Con 9 and Int 13, so only gets 3 physical skill points but 5 mental skill points.)

Thoughts?

Spiryt
2007-09-15, 01:11 PM
Well, any chance of higher Inteligence being useful to warriors is no more.

I don't like it.

RTGoodman
2007-09-15, 02:33 PM
It's sort of like you're re-inventing the wheel. I mean, the point of ability modifiers to skills is that the physical-type characters (the ones with high Str and Con) are gonna be really good at the physical skills (Jump, Climb, etc.), while those who are smart are gonna be really good at learning a ton of skills.

I may be the toughest guy ever (Con 18), but if I've got a low Intelligence (6 or so), my toughness isn't going to help me learn new things like a high intelligence would. It'll just make me better at the few things I can do (jumping, swimming, and such).

Peregrine
2007-09-15, 04:10 PM
Well, any chance of higher Inteligence being useful to warriors is no more.

I don't like it.

I'm not sure why that's inherently objectionable. Also it's not true; an intelligent warrior can take things like the Combat Expertise tree. I'd rather save Int from dump-stat status by introducing more feats of that kind, than by preserving a system that seems a little dumb.


It's sort of like you're re-inventing the wheel. I mean, the point of ability modifiers to skills is that the physical-type characters (the ones with high Str and Con) are gonna be really good at the physical skills (Jump, Climb, etc.), while those who are smart are gonna be really good at learning a ton of skills.

I may be the toughest guy ever (Con 18), but if I've got a low Intelligence (6 or so), my toughness isn't going to help me learn new things like a high intelligence would. It'll just make me better at the few things I can do (jumping, swimming, and such).

I came up with this idea at some point in time when I'd just finished reading another attempt at basing skills more strongly off relevant stats rather than Int. It seems that a number of homebrewers have problems with the idea that being intelligent means you're better able to learn climbing, jumping and tumbling, where a less bright sort would only be able to learn climbing. I agreed, but I thought the execution of this now-forgotten thread was awful. Basing breadth of physical skills on Con seemed to make much more sense: your stamina lets you train harder and longer.

This doesn't replace or double up on the existing ability modifiers to skills: they make you better at each individual skill. Bonus skill points have always just given you breadth, doing nothing to the rank cap. Con-based skill points are no different to Int-based skill points in this regard.

vivi
2007-09-15, 05:02 PM
I like your idea A LOT, but are their one or two pools of skills?

Eighth_Seraph
2007-09-15, 07:51 PM
Right, in order to pull this off, you'd have to separate "physical" skills from "mental" skills. So your Con would give

Skill Allocations within Pools{table]Constitution|Intelligence
Balance|Appraise
Climb|Bluff
Escape Artist|Craft
Hide|Decipher Script
Jump|Diplomacy
Perform|Disable Device
Ride|Disguise
Survival|Forgery
Swim|Gather Information
Tumble|Handle Animal
Move Silently|Heal
|Intimidate
|Knowledge (all)
|Listen
|Open Lock
|Perform
|Profession
|Search
|Sense Motive
|Sleight of Hand
|Spellcraft
|Spot
|Use Magic Device
|Use Rope[/table]

You'll notice that Perform is on both sides; that's to reflect that someone could be a dancer or a flute player with different uses of this skill, so individual perform skills need to be taken into account. Is this about right from your view, Badger?

Edea
2007-09-15, 08:02 PM
It's an interesting idea, but it might be a bit easier to simply expand the class skill list and skill point per level totals of melee classes (which we already know to be almost universally, unnecessarily abysmal, IMO anyway).

Another house rule might be to eliminate the affect of a negative Intelligence modifier on your skill points accrued per level: only a bonus to the stat would affect those totals (so you're still rewarded for a high stat in that area, but also given a bit more breathing room).

F.H. Zebedee
2007-09-15, 08:35 PM
I think you'd need to homebrew this whole thing out, listing the split between physical and mental skills, and some you can put both in.

There's two main modifications, I'd say, and that'd be first of all, either making STR the Fort Save stat, or making it the stat for picking up skills. As is, it's the second most dumpable stat after CHA, and often, moreso dumpable. Con, on the other hand, though never a first priority, is the least dumped on stat, I'd say. So if we up con, throw STR a bone.

And then I'd say, ensure that both STR and INT provide skill points, and that class skillpoints (The 2+ in 2+int) can be put into either category. A valid enough fix, and would make fighters more skillful, any way you slice it. And it'd prevent wizards from being capable at outclassing physical classes at physical skills. Anything that helps Monk, Fighter, Barbarian, and Paladin, while slightly dinging up pointy hat is good in my book.