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View Full Version : D&D 5e/Next Necromancy Overhaul (PEACH, of course)



Lord Von Becker
2018-09-13, 08:23 PM
Hello all. I hope this doesn't sound arrogant, but I've found the 5th Edition options for Necromancers to be woefully lacking. No zombie armies, barely any minions, and slow to get the minions it has. Middle Finger of Vecna tried to patch that by giving you Frankenstien's Monster, which still wasn't a kingdom-conquering army. So I came up with an alternative.
(Note that this was written when I wasn't quite as familiar the rules. Also, I no longer advocate specific GP costs for material components, but since I haven't written up a fix for it, I'm leaving that alone for now.)


Undead Horde
Necromancy cantrip
Available to: Every class with Animate Dead on their spell list, although Oathbreaker Paladins will need specific tweaking for that.
V, S, M (an appropriate mass of bodies or bodyparts from any sort of formerly-living creature, used up during casting)
Casting Time: Ten minutes
Duration: Permanent
Range: Touch
You spend some time animating various corpses into a Horde of Undead. (See stat block below.)
The horde will obey your commands and those of anyone you designate, but it cannot understand orders with more than one qualifier, e.g. "kill every humanoid you see unless they are wearing a red uniform", on its own. As such, direct control is usually considered preferable.

If you already have a horde of undead when you create a new one, you may also choose to repair or recreate it instead of making a new one.
If you cast this after having reached 5th level, you can make a Huge-sized horde whose Flailing deals 2d6 damage.
At 11th level you may make a Gargantuan horde whose Flailing deals 3d6 damage.
At 17th level you may make a Colossal horde whose Flailing deals 4d6 damage. (Colossal is a vague size category larger than Gargantuan, better described in miles than in feet. As a general rule, damage at this stage is more about destroying the horde's cohesion than actually destroying its members.)


The horde is treated as a single creature with the following statistics, determined at the time of its creation:
Undead Horde (Default)
Large horde of Medium undead, unaligned
Armor Class [equal to the creator’s Spell Save DC]
Hit Points [equal to its creator's HP * 2]
Speed 20 ft.

Strength, Constitution and Wisdom equal to its creator's casting stat.
Dexterity 10 (+0)
Intelligence 3 (-4)
Charisma 5 (-3)

Saving Throws [equal to creator's], but has Disadvantage on Dexterity saves

Skills Intimidation +5

Damage Immunities poison

Condition Immunities exhaustion

Senses Darkvision 60 ft., Blindsense 5 ft., passive Perception [equal to creator's Spell Save DC]

Languages Understands commands in the languages of its creator, but can't speak without explicit instruction

Challange Half creator's challenge rating, if alone? I don't have the full DMG guidelines.

Controllable. If the horde is within 100 feet of its creator or commander they have designated, it is considered to be under direct command. While under direct command the horde has no actions of its own, but can be granted one if a commander takes an action to instruct it. If granted an action in this way, the horde carries out the command immediately.

Horde. The horde can occupy another creature’s space and vice versa, and the horde can move through any opening large enough for a Medium undead. It cannot be grappled by anything smaller than the entire horde.

Actions
Flailing. The horde deals 1d6 slashing, bludgeoning, or piercing damage to all designated creatures and objects within its reach. A Dexterity save against its' creator's Spell Save DC negates this damage.

Grasping. The horde makes a grapple attempt against every creature within its reach, ignoring relative sizes. The horde's Athletics check is equal to its' creator's Spell Save DC. If the the horde is under direct command, it will release all grapples after one round unless commanded as an action to maintain it.


Comments: Yes, it's somewhat mechanically optimal to give this to a max-CON dwarven barbarian. I've decided this isn't a bug. I've tried to balance this appropriately - you can see my logic downthread - but I don't know how well the speed limit works to balance it in practice, or how gamechanging it is in its meatshield, sentry, and porter duties. Playtest comments would be very welcome.

LATER THOUGHTS: In retrospect, I think this is basically just letting necromancer PCs act on the same scale as other spellcaster types. RAW Necromancers are, bizarrely, the low-fantasy, small-scale wizard option, when I the one time I played one I'd gone in expecting them to be the highest-setting-impact fantasy archetype I could think of. Whee!


Warlock Invocation:
Deathless Resilience
Prerequisite: undead horde cantrip
When you create an undead horde, you may choose to give it hit points equal to your character level times 20.
(Notes: Concept courtesy of Geigue.)

Feat:
Bonecrafter
Prerequisite: undead horde cantrip
Increase your Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma by 1.
You have learned the intricacies of shaping necrotic anatomy. You gain the following benefits when making or remaking an undead horde.
*You may make its constituent members average as Large, adjusting its Horde feature to match. If you do so, add your spellcasting modifier to the damage of the horde's Flailing.
*You may make its constituent members Tiny, and adjust its Horde feature to match.
*If you have adequate material for wings, you may give it a fly speed of 40 ft., and the ability to hover. (This will likely be much easier if its constituents are Tiny.)
*If you have an adequate supply of ranged weapons and ammunition, you may give it the ability to use its Flailing against a cube the same size as the horde's Space, centered on a point within the weapons' range, instead of all creatures within its reach.
(Notes: This is a half-feat because I don't expect Large wings to be more common than magic weaponry. If they are, well, enjoy your zombie dragon army - one stat point won't do much to make the Fighter less overshadowed.)


Craft Undead
Ritual
5th-level necromancy
Available to: All classes with Create Undead on their spell list.
V, S, M (the corpse of one or more creatures, variable GP cost)
Casting Time: 1 hour
Duration: Permanent
Range: Touch
You exert your power and skill, crafting a monster to haunt the earth from the remains of the dead.
When it is done, you have created any creature or set of creatures of your choice, with the following restrictions.
Their type must be Undead, the corpse(s) you used must be appropriate, and their total CR must be equal to or less than the level of spell slot you used to cast this. You may devise new Undead with your DM’s approval.

During the creation process, you may issue a single command. If the resulting creature attempts to disobey it, it must make a Charisma save against your Spell Save DC, and be forced to obey it if they fail. If they ever succeed on this save, they make all future saves to disobey it with Proficiency and Advantage.

Comments: Be nice to your Death Knights, kiddies. I may also reskin this as Create Chimaera for the Transmuters, if I can find enough ways to distinguish them.


Lichhood
Ritual
5th level necromancy
Available to: All spellcasters.
S, M (embalming supplies worth at least 10,000 GP which are consumed during casting)
Casting Time: 10 Days
Duration: Instant
Range: Self
You imbue an object (one of your vital organs or an object of great sentimental value) with your essence, which causes your body to waste away and die. Ten days after beginning the spell, you are reborn with the following changes:
*You have earned the title of Lich (if you primarily considered a spellcaster) or Death Knight (if you are not).
*You are undead.
*As an action, you may expend a spell slot to heal up to 12 hit points per slot level, divided as you choose between yourself and any other undead within 100 feet.
*You gain immunity to poison damage, and to the blindness, deafness, disease, exhaustion, and poisoned conditions.

Your [still-beating heart/beloved spouse's cenotaph/first spellbook/holy icon/other chosen item] is also changed, having become the receptacle for your soul.*
- Its' saves and maximum hit points start out identical to yours, and will increase if yours do. They cannot be decreased by temporary measures.
- Your maximum hit points are always equal to its' current hit points, and cannot be reduced by any means aside from damaging it.
- You can repair it fully over the course of a short rest, so long as you can access it. This is the only way it can regain HP.
- Its' Armor Class is 20.
- It does not have Immunity to psychic damage, unless you do.

If you are ever killed, you will regrow from the imbued object ten days later, so long as it has not also been destroyed.

*D&D has traditionally called this sort of object a Phylactery, which certainly sounds cool, but doesn't have a lot of thematic resonance. (The closest it gets is as a term for "wearable charm", but that was probably co-opted from a Jewish religious practice.)
Anyway, I usually say Heart if I'm being dramatic or Lich-heart if I'm being specific, and I might adopt Serdtse (https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/dynamic-translation/9963d3a935de06b7dc7fc47cd678cfa4b78006f0.html) (because of Koschei the Deathless (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koschei)) if I want something more clinical.

Comments: Another thing whose official rules I only know secondhand, but which made a big impression on me. Liches are so cool, you guys.
Later comment: After some consideration, I decided this should be available to all casters - Paladin and Wizard might be the most iconic, but Goth Bard and Goth Druid both have potential, and a 20th level Arcane Trickster
The healing thing has gone through several iterations, but hopefully it's balanced well enough now? Immunity to blindness is at least flavorful.
Also, there is an edge case in which your lich-heart gets reduced to 0 HP but stabilizes. I decided to leave it in because it sounds like a campaign hook.

Next post has my overhaul of the Wizard's School of Necromancy.

Lord Von Becker
2018-09-14, 11:03 AM
2nd Level Tradition Features:
Necromantic Savant (unchanged)

Commentary: It's a Wizard feature. Move along.

Silent As The Grave
You have a kinship with the dead, and may converse with any creature of the Undead type as if you shared a language. This is no guarantee that the undead creature is not insane, deceptive, or too stupid to be of much help. Additionally, you may ignore the Verbal and Somatic components of any Necromancy spell they cast, so long as it is not cast as a Ritual.

Commentary: Two ribbons here, but I like these ribbons.

6th Level Tradition Feature:
Kindred of the Slain
Your mastery of reanimation is such that you can even do it mid-battle.
Gain the Undead Horde cantrip if you didn’t have it already, or a Wizard cantrip of your choice if you did. It doesn't count against your Cantrips Known.
Once per turn, as a bonus action, you may command your Horde to consume either (A) the body of a worthy opponent you slew yourself, or (B) a group of corpses whose total mass is no less than one size smaller than your Horde. (The horde must be no further than five feet from whatever it consumes.) Upon consumption, the Horde regains HP equal to twice your character level.

Commentary: Mid-battle raising! Such a cool image. Also, this should help in keeping up with Einherjar-commanders (the Barbarian build I mentioned up above), so there's that.

10th Level Tradition Feature:
Restless as the Dead
You no longer require sleep and can't be forced to sleep by any means. You may gain the benefits of a long rest by spending at least four hours doing something simple and meditative, such as walking, carving, or keeping watch.
You may suspend your need for food, drink, and breath indefinitely if aren't doing strenuous activities, or for one hour if you are.
If your HP drops to 0 without instantly killing you, you automatically stabilize. You may still be killed by the careful mutilation of your ‘corpse’.

Commentary: I wanted an "of course he survived the fall from the cliff while unconscious and on fire, this is why we dismember wizards" feature. But I worry that it's too situational, so maybe I'll add Necrotic resistance or something. (Or the option to let your Horde fly. I really like the idea of having a flock of circling ravens and calling it a crown, but that might be better as a spell.)

14th Level Tradition Feature:
Ruler of the Final Frontier
Your word carries the weight of one who rules in the lands of the dead. Add your Proficiency and Intelligence bonuses to any Persuade or Intimidate actions which target the undead, and expect news of your fame to win you recruits and tribute as time goes on. (Guideline: You should get at least one valuable reagent (materials for a Phylactery are traditional), and/or at least one powerful undead should pledge themselves to your service.)

Commentary: This one's a bit GM-dependent, but it does accommodate people who don't want a Phylactery. I also like the idea that (powerful) Wizards are the kings and queens of strange worlds, because it gives them a cool narrative niche beyond sheer firepower.

Giegue
2018-09-17, 07:03 PM
Looks fun. I am terrible at mechanical balance when it comes to 5e though, so can’t coment to that. One thing I would add though is I think divine souls whoes magic affinity is evil should also get access to lichdom and the Phylactery spell, since their magic can easily come from the same deities as a Death Domain Cleric’s and they can just as easily be their priest or worshiper. (or hell, their chosen/prophet, which would make them even more deserving of that spell)

Lord Von Becker
2018-09-20, 01:03 PM
Looks fun. I am terrible at mechanical balance when it comes to 5e though, so can’t coment to that. One thing I would add though is I think divine souls whoes magic affinity is evil should also get access to lichdom and the Phylactery spell, since their magic can easily come from the same deities as a Death Domain Cleric’s and they can just as easily be their priest or worshiper. (or hell, their chosen/prophet, which would make them even more deserving of that spell)
Glad you like the flavor. I was mentally classifying all Sorcerors as Arcane casters, so I'll clarify that, but I wouldn't alignment-lock it for Favored Souls - if nothing else, I don't know of any 5e distinction between Undead and Deathless, and Good Zombies are too fun to ban.

Giegue
2018-09-20, 08:46 PM
Yeah, as a question, I assume the fact Animate Hoard can be coppied as a ritual allows Warlocks to also grab it via Pact of the Tome? I ask because it seems weird that they can get lichdom and craft undead, but not animate hoard if thats not the case. Likewise, for ease of use by warlocks, you should specify that it counts as a 1st level ritual, and not a level 0 ritual (which currently dose not even exist in the actual 5e rules; cantrip rituals are flat out not a thing in 5e, and ritual-casting cantrip is just a normal cantrip, and not an actual [ritual] spel), so they can snag it with the base invocation instead of having to rely on their GM handing it to them. It just seems counterintutive that Warlocks should be forced to rely on DM charity to even get access to the most basic animation spell, yet have full ease of access to the higher level stuff. Either warlocks can just pick up the animate hoard spell with the book of ancient secrets invocation (counting it as a 1st level ritual for its effects) or they should be outright barred from all the other necro stuff as well; it just is really off they they can't get animate hoard easily/without GM charity, but can easily and freely get the other, higher level undead stuff.

Lord Von Becker
2018-09-29, 08:46 PM
First off, I think Warlocks get Animate Dead on their regular spell list, so it's available as one of their cantrip options. (Am I wrong about that?) Secondly, the whole 'copied as a ritual' thing is more for characters with the Ritual Caster feat than for Book of Ancient Secrets casting. And for that, you're stuck with 'allied Wizard or generous DM' anyway.

Lord Von Becker
2018-10-25, 09:49 PM
Hey, have a new spell. Also, I can see that Undead Horde is probably still broken, so I may be patching that when I get the chance.

Create Explosive Zombie
2nd level necromancy
V, S, M (a chip of sulphur)
Casting Time: 1 Action
Range: Touch
Duration: Instant
You touch a corpse and begin terrible reactions inside it, which cause it to bloat with volatile gases and all holes in its skin to seal. At the end of your next turn, it rises as an explosive zombie under your command, and you may command it with a free action. (Its initial size is determined by the corpse you used.)
If cast with a higher-leveled spell slot, the explosive zombie’s explosion deals an extra 2d6 fire damage per slot level above the second.

And the stats:
Explosive Zombie
Variably-sized Undead, Chaotic Neutral (CR ½)

AC 11
HP: 9 (2d8)

STR 8
DEX 11
CON 10
INT 3
WIS 3
CHA 3

Speed: 20 ft.

Senses: Blind, relies on hearing and vocal commands.

Languages: Understands simple commands in its creator’s chosen language, but cannot speak.

Qualities

Float: If the Explosive Zombie is Small or smaller, it gains a fly speed of 30 feet and may hover.

Burst: If the Explosive Zombie is commanded to, or is reduced to 0 HP by anything other than Cold damage, it explodes. This hits all creatures in its area for 2d6 fire damage and 2d6 poison damage, although they may make a Constitution save against DC 12 to avoid the poison damage. It also thoroughly destroys the Explosive Zombie’s corpse, which is the original reason they were invented.

Spray: If the Explosive Zombie was Medium or larger when it exploded, its explosion instead hits a sphere centered on itself. The sphere’s base radius is 5 feet, but doubles for every size category the Explosive Zombie was above medium.

Deflate: 24 hours after it was animated, the Explosive Zombie deflates back into a mildly-mangled corpse.

Attacks:
Boneless Flailing: +0 to hit, 1 bashing damage.

Giegue
2018-10-26, 03:54 PM
Looks fun. BTW, since your giving warlocks all the undead creation spells, such as Animate Hoard and Craft Undead, I figured I'd make a new invocation that makes them better at undead hoard-building. Thing is, if any spellcaster class would be "the best" necromancer thematically, in my eyes it would be the Warlock. So I've created this invocation. Have fun with it:

Undead Mastery
Prerequisites: Undead Hoard cantrip
Undead hoards you create with your Undead Hoard cantrip have hit points equal to 1d12 x your Warlock level instead of their normal amount. (rolled individually for each warlock level)

This makes warlocks on par with a Barbarian for undead hoard health, making them, the bard, the Oathnbreaker and Wizard all tied for best necromancer, which seems like the ideal situation for me. ALSO Warlocks do NOT get Animate Dead on their base list, just Dance Macabre and Create Undead. So you may want to stipulate that they also get the Animate Hoard cantrip, since that seems to be your design intent.

Also, do you mind if I use a simmilar thing to your hoard mechanic for a Bard and Warlock subclass I am making? I will give you proper credits, obviously.

Man_Over_Game
2018-10-26, 04:55 PM
Undead Horde
Necromancy cantrip (This replaces Animate Dead on every spell list, and may be copied as a Ritual. Oathbreaker Paladins may need special tweaking.)
V, S, M (an appropriate mass of bodies or bodyparts from any sort of formerly-living creature)
Casting Time: Ten minutes
Duration: Permanent
Range: Touch
The necromancer spends some time assembling corpses (commonly vermin, but scaling up with the necromancer's power) into a Horde of Undead. (See stat block below.) It will follow their general commands, but will not fight in the necromancer’s presence unless the necromancer spends an Action to allow it.
Subsequent castings will repair or replace the horde, but a necromancer may only ever have one horde under their direct control at once. Attempting to bypass this may (or may not) have undesired consequences.
Damage: 1d6 to every enemy within 5 feet of the horde who does not make a Dexterity save. At 5th level this increases to 2d6 and the Horde becomes Huge. At 10th level this increases to 3d6 and the Horde becomes Gargantuan. At 17th level this increases to 4d6 and the Horde becomes Colossal.
The horde can be commanded to Dash, Dodge, Disengage, or Initiate a Grapple (using the caster’s save DC for their check, and against any adjacent enemy) if the creator spends an action.

The horde is treated as a single creature with the following statistics:
Size Variable (starts at Large, follows cantrip progression)
Land Speed 20
Max HP equal to twice that of the caster.
AC equal to the caster’s Spell Save DC.
Immunity to Poison damage and the Exhausted condition.
The horde may move through holes up to two sizes smaller than itself at half speed.
The horde uses their creator’s saves, but automatically fails any save against a damage-dealing area attack.

Comments: Yes, it's somewhat mechanically optimal to give this to a max-CON dwarven barbarian. I've decided this isn't a bug. I'm also breaking a couple of 5E's cantrip assumptions, so clearing things up and making it gel better would be nice - I mostly know the rules secondhand or through the SRD.



I'll be honest, I'm not sure how this spell is balanced in comparison to any other cantrip. Heck, I can't see this being worse than a level 1, 2, or even level 3 spells.

The earliest spell that I can really compare it to is Bigby's Hand, which deals more damage at low levels, but is a lot squishier and eats up your Concentration. Bigby's Hand can only target a single creature and attacks with your bonus action for a 4d8. Yours can deal damage to EVERY adjacent creature, with it being COLOSSAL, and deal 4d6 to every one of them without any kind of action on part of the creature.

This is somewhere between a level 3-7 spell, maybe more since it's a permanent creature. I'd either severely nerf its current power to make it inline with other cantrips (don't forget the power level of Infestation is a thing), or make it a leveled spell that scales with spell slot spent (maybe it grows in size for every 2 levels you bump it up, with the damage increasing each size).

Lord Von Becker
2018-11-02, 04:49 PM
Looks fun. BTW, since your giving warlocks all the undead creation spells, such as Animate Hoard and Craft Undead, I figured I'd make a new invocation that makes them better at undead hoard-building. Thing is, if any spellcaster class would be "the best" necromancer thematically, in my eyes it would be the Warlock. So I've created this invocation. Have fun with it:

Undead Mastery
Prerequisites: Undead Hoard cantrip
Undead hoards you create with your Undead Hoard cantrip have hit points equal to 1d12 x your Warlock level instead of their normal amount. (rolled individually for each warlock level)

This makes warlocks on par with a Barbarian for undead hoard health, making them, the bard, the Oathnbreaker and Wizard all tied for best necromancer, which seems like the ideal situation for me. ALSO Warlocks do NOT get Animate Dead on their base list, just Dance Macabre and Create Undead. So you may want to stipulate that they also get the Animate Hoard cantrip, since that seems to be your design intent.

Also, do you mind if I use a simmilar thing to your hoard mechanic for a Bard and Warlock subclass I am making? I will give you proper credits, obviously.I actually like Wizard necromancers better than Warlock ones, but Warlocks aren't bad. That said, your Invocation is (surprisingly) a little weak - the Horde's base HP takes account of your CON mod, and yours might actually make it weaker.
It might be better to have the Invocation simply double the Horde's HP, or give it HP equal to exactly 12 times your Warlock Level (on par with a 20-CON non-dwarven Barbarian who takes the average-rounded-up each level), or alternately have less/no HP bonus, but make the horde faster.

I'll be honest, I'm not sure how this spell is balanced in comparison to any other cantrip. Heck, I can't see this being worse than a level 1, 2, or even level 3 spells.

The earliest spell that I can really compare it to is Bigby's Hand, which deals more damage at low levels, but is a lot squishier and eats up your Concentration. Bigby's Hand can only target a single creature and attacks with your bonus action for a 4d8. Yours can deal damage to EVERY adjacent creature, with it being COLOSSAL, and deal 4d6 to every one of them without any kind of action on part of the creature.

This is somewhere between a level 3-7 spell, maybe more since it's a permanent creature. I'd either severely nerf its current power to make it inline with other cantrips (don't forget the power level of Infestation is a thing), or make it a leveled spell that scales with spell slot spent (maybe it grows in size for every 2 levels you bump it up, with the damage increasing each size).
I'm going to go really in-depth about my reasoning here, because I find it interesting. I may even reconsider something.

Damage-wise, I balanced it around Acid Splash. Now, granted, Acid Splash normally has a two-target maximum, but I've tried to compensate for that in two ways.
*Firstly, 5E seems to consider a cantrip targeting a primary save to be 2 die-faces worse than a spell attack, going by Toll the Dead and Poison Spray versus Fire Bolt and Eldritch Blast. (Admittedly, Poison Spray is short range and the worst damage type, and Toll The Dead only uses d8s if the target is at full HP, but I don't know how much those count for so I basically discounted them.)
*Secondly, the Horde is not fast. I expect it would be quite good in enclosed spaces where it could guard things, but it's effectively shorter ranged than most touch cantrips. (It can't benefit from your or a familiar's speed.)

Utility-wise, it's clearly powerful, but let's focus on the grappling specifically. Partly because I find it interesting, partly because I think it's the one with the most impact on combat.
There's only one cantrip I'm aware of which makes a decent comparison for the effects of grappling, and that's Eldritch Blast with Invocations.
(Estimating the value of an Invocation is tricky. On the one hand, we have Agonizing Blast, which because Eldritch Blast gets more powerful by firing more bolts, adds (Spellcasting Modifier x character tier) to the cantrip's damage. Since it makes sense to assume at least a minimally-optimized character if we're worried about balance, we could just call it 5 damage per tier.
On the other hand, Lance Of Lethargy adds a flat 10-foot speed penalty to anything hit by Eldritch Blast. Compared to Ray of Frost, the Invocation is only worth two damage-die-faces (which average to one damage) per tier.
The second is clearly less powerful than the first, although this may be in order to limit how much can be stacked on a single cantrip. That said, I'm going to assume that all three Invocations I'm comparing Undead Horde to have the second value, because Lance of Lethargy is one of them and Agonizing Blast is not.)

Repelling Blast and Hand of Hadar give us the forced movement. Each one allows a Warlock move the target of an Eldritch Blast ten feet per hit, although the directional control isn't great. (It's a little better if your DM interprets them as 'any direction away from you' and 'any direction towards to you', but either way Undead Horde does both.) Since Undead Horde trades all (1d6) damage for its grapple attempt, and until it gets Huge (and is therefore trading at least 2d6), it can only move 10 feet per round while grappling a Medium creature. This much is clearly paid for.
Now, the restraining is a lot trickier. I understand that Ray of Frost was rather overpowered in the beta test, and that for this reason Lance of Lethargy has been prevented from removing more than 10 feet of speed per creature per casting. Even if it wasn't, though, standard (land) speed is 30 feet, and the metaphorical die has, at most, four faces left. Not enough.

Finally, there's the duration. As-written, a grapple lasts until broken by Athletics or Acrobatics check, which (combined with the area) means it would only be a little worse than Web, even if the horde was completely immobilized while doing so! Which means I should rework the grapple option, but I have some ideas for that already. Thanks!

Giegue
2018-11-02, 04:58 PM
Yeah, your right on the invocation. Bumb the HP boost up to 12 x Warlock level and I think its about right. Thus, new version should look like this:

Undead Mastery
Prerequisites: Undead Hoard cantrip
Undead hoards you create with your Undead Hoard cantrip have hit points equal to 12 x your Warlock level instead of their normal amount.

With that, and a specification that Warlocks also get Undead Hoard, I think that things are in-working order. It makes Wizards, Oathbreakers, and Warlocks the best "default" necromancers, which seems thematically right, with Barbarian Necro being a very strong fringe build that can be made. Thanks for the advice, and I'd like to know if you think the invocation is good enough to be included in the OP now?

The Jack
2018-11-04, 11:34 PM
I dont like most of this. I'd rather add to what already exists.

Build lesser undead
Level 1 necromancy.
R,V,S,M ( bone dust, powdered gems worth at least 10gp, items specific to creature)
Creates an undead with a challenge rating of less than 1/4. The creature will be loyal to its master and obey instructions, it can be used as a familiar.

dead swarm[b]
level 3 necromancy
VSM
The caster animates an entire swarm of animals, either skeletons or as zombies. Use the swarm stats in the MM but with poison immunity and undead nature. Otherwise treat as animate dead.

[B]Greater undead
VSM
The spell animates one creature in zombie or skeletal form, regardless of shape or size. It takes Ten minutes per CR. The spell slot dictates the dead that can be raised.
3rd- Warhorse
5th-Minotaur, zombie ogre, zombie beholder
7th-Flameskull, deathlock or CR 5.
(Fit other material undead in as you wish)
The creature can be controlled for 24 hours. "animate dead" may be used to reassert control.

Bind dead
4th level Ritual
The caster puts a single undead under permanent contol, forgoing the need to continually cast control spells. This requires consent from intellegent undead, who may pledge oaths with terms. Only two undead may be controlled this way.

.King of Unlife
Probably 7th level for dk and 8th for lich.
Warlock,Wizard-lich
Cleric or druid- lich or Deathknight
Everyone else-deathknight
Materials: something worth 10,000gp, an evil victim or volunteer with class levels

The character becomes undead, they gain the damage and condition resistances/immunities of either lich or death knight, and their special attack (paralysing touch/hellfire orb). Paralysing touch scales like a cantrip and hellfire orb is 1d6 fire and 1d6 necrotic damage per two levels. The lich requires souls and the deathknight must not be redeemed.
However, this transformation is considered it's own class level: a 17th level wizard subject to this ritual is 18th level, but is still a 17th level wizard.

Alternate thought: undead is an advanced class. One level is DK, two levels is lich, three levels is beyond lich . Normal classes effect Undead Class special abilities; paladins get hellfire orbs and aura, monks get spider climb and necrotic fists, Sorcerers get frightful aura and the ability to change a spells damage type to poison or necrotic at will...

On princible, i don't like npcs having options that player characters can never get.

Lord Von Becker
2018-11-08, 09:51 PM
Sorry for the late reply, internet isn't reliable for me right now.

Yeah, your right on the invocation. Bumb the HP boost up to 12 x Warlock level and I think its about right. Thus, new version should look like this:

Undead Mastery
Prerequisites: Undead Hoard cantrip
Undead hoards you create with your Undead Hoard cantrip have hit points equal to 12 x your Warlock level instead of their normal amount.

With that, and a specification that Warlocks also get Undead Hoard, I think that things are in-working order. It makes Wizards, Oathbreakers, and Warlocks the best "default" necromancers, which seems thematically right, with Barbarian Necro being a very strong fringe build that can be made. Thanks for the advice, and I'd like to know if you think the invocation is good enough to be included in the OP now?
If you want me to, sure. I need to patch the grappling as well.

Giegue
2018-11-09, 10:17 AM
Yes, I would. Thanks!

Lord Von Becker
2018-11-15, 12:06 AM
Lost my edit, may be a bit before I can get it done. In the meantime:

I dont like most of this. I'd rather add to what already exists.

Build lesser undead
Level 1 necromancy.
R,V,S,M ( bone dust, powdered gems worth at least 10gp, items specific to creature)
Creates an undead with a challenge rating of less than 1/4. The creature will be loyal to its master and obey instructions, it can be used as a familiar.

dead swarm[b]
level 3 necromancy
VSM
The caster animates an entire swarm of animals, either skeletons or as zombies. Use the swarm stats in the MM but with poison immunity and undead nature. Otherwise treat as animate dead.

[B]Greater undead
VSM
The spell animates one creature in zombie or skeletal form, regardless of shape or size. It takes Ten minutes per CR. The spell slot dictates the dead that can be raised.
3rd- Warhorse
5th-Minotaur, zombie ogre, zombie beholder
7th-Flameskull, deathlock or CR 5.
(Fit other material undead in as you wish)
The creature can be controlled for 24 hours. "animate dead" may be used to reassert control.

Bind dead
4th level Ritual
The caster puts a single undead under permanent contol, forgoing the need to continually cast control spells. This requires consent from intellegent undead, who may pledge oaths with terms. Only two undead may be controlled this way.

.King of Unlife
Probably 7th level for dk and 8th for lich.
Warlock,Wizard-lich
Cleric or druid- lich or Deathknight
Everyone else-deathknight
Materials: something worth 10,000gp, an evil victim or volunteer with class levels

The character becomes undead, they gain the damage and condition resistances/immunities of either lich or death knight, and their special attack (paralysing touch/hellfire orb). Paralysing touch scales like a cantrip and hellfire orb is 1d6 fire and 1d6 necrotic damage per two levels. The lich requires souls and the deathknight must not be redeemed.
However, this transformation is considered it's own class level: a 17th level wizard subject to this ritual is 18th level, but is still a 17th level wizard.

Alternate thought: undead is an advanced class. One level is DK, two levels is lich, three levels is beyond lich . Normal classes effect Undead Class special abilities; paladins get hellfire orbs and aura, monks get spider climb and necrotic fists, Sorcerers get frightful aura and the ability to change a spells damage type to poison or necrotic at will...

On princible, i don't like npcs having options that player characters can never get.

I'm sorry, sir, this thread is for 5th edition. I haven't looked at the 3rd edition rules for undead very carefully, but I imagine they're a fair sight better than what 5e natively gets.

The Jack
2018-11-16, 03:17 PM
What? I don't follow; My list was for 5e.

Lord Von Becker
2018-12-03, 10:36 PM
What? I don't follow; My list was for 5e.
Sorry, it seemed to be following 3.X assumptions regarding:
*Spell lists (5e spells are designed to be multiclass-friendly, so they don't have different levels on different lists - contradicted by King of Unlife).
*Power scaling (if Hell Sphere scales with character level, it's almost twice as powerful as Eldritch Blast with Agonizing Blast, wheras if it scales with spell slot level, it's less than half as powerful as Schorching Ray).
*'Advanced classes' aren't really a thing in 5e, and they really were in 3.X.

Incidentally, this thread is for the criticism and supplementing of my overhaul. You should probably put those in their own thread.

Lord Von Becker
2018-12-15, 08:38 PM
Yeah, your right on the invocation. Bumb the HP boost up to 12 x Warlock level and I think its about right. Thus, new version should look like this:

Undead Mastery
Prerequisites: Undead Hoard cantrip
Undead hoards you create with your Undead Hoard cantrip have hit points equal to 12 x your Warlock level instead of their normal amount.

With that, and a specification that Warlocks also get Undead Hoard, I think that things are in-working order. It makes Wizards, Oathbreakers, and Warlocks the best "default" necromancers, which seems thematically right, with Barbarian Necro being a very strong fringe build that can be made. Thanks for the advice, and I'd like to know if you think the invocation is good enough to be included in the OP now?
I finally got around to it! I wound up upping it yet further, because I realized that a 12-CON Warlock who takes the standard HP per level would gain nothing from it - I'd forgotten to account for the x2 modifier for the horde. So it's now equivalent to someone who gets 10 HP per level, such as a Warlock with maxed Constitution.

I also clarified that Liches can still be healed by spells that don't normally work for undead, changed the tense of the cantrip-text to first person, rewrote the horde's statblock, and made horde-Grapples require an action each turn to maintain.

Hmm. Should I make it explicit that the horde has quite a lot of free hands?