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Drakevarg
2018-09-22, 12:34 AM
Been doing a lot of tweaking of various things for my low-magic setting, including significant changes to the undead since being - y'know, dead already - they shouldn't be trivial to deal with. Just thought I'd share my notes for the project, get some outside opinions. Worth noting is that while magic isn't necessarily unheard of in my setting, spellcasters specifically are extremely rare (meaning, players can only access spellcasting classes as a story reward). There are probably other things worth pointing out, but I'm not making a worldbuilding thread right now, just reviewing a specific set of rule tweaks. Can point out other changes as needed.

This is taken verbatim from my own notes, so I apologize ahead of time if its formatting is confusing to people who aren't me.

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Intelligent
Mindless
Savage


Ghost
Skeleton
Wendigo


Vampire
Zombie*
Ghoul


Swordwraith
Fossil
Shadow



**Diseased and Unkillable Variants, +1.5 CR

Swordwraith - Died in battle.
Wendigo - Died a cannibal.
Ghoul - Died of plague.
Fossil - Died long ago.
Vampire - Died in occult ritual.

Skeletons are almost always the result of deliberate necromancy. Zombies can turn up anywhere bodies are not properly dealt with, shadows anywhere death occurred with intense emotion. Ghosts are actually extremely common, but rarely bother the living.

Slaying the Dead
Lesser Undead
Mindless undead are virtually unkillable even in the best of circumstances. If reduced to zero HP, a zombie enters a state similar to a vampire's torpor until their fast healing returns them to maximum HP, at which point they reanimate with the swarm-shifter template (always a swarm of undead parts). A skeleton or fossil is less tenacious than a zombie, and thus will attempt to reanimate via the swarm-shifter's healing ability, reforming and collapsing into a heap of bones repeatedly until it returns to full HP.

If reduced to zero HP by fire damage, a zombie instead loses the zombie template and gains the skeleton template (fiery variant, CR +0.5). A skeleton thus slain similarly gains the fiery variant. If it had previously gained the swarm-shifter template, it retains it. The flaming skeleton loses the zombie's fast healing ability (if it had it) and crumbles into ash when slain, returning 2d4 days later as a shade. Fossils have no particular response to attempted cremation.

Death Titans
Undead in large numbers are especially dangerous, as 17 HD or more of such undead with the swarm-shifter template may conglomerate into a death titan. Death titans, much like the lesser undead they are comprised of, merely enter torpor when reduced to zero HP. They will only reanimate when provided a sacrificial body (the Boneyard, rather than having Fast Healing 10, heals (3 x victim's HD) when using its Utter Subsumption ability, similar to a Charnel Hound's Body Integration). If slain via immersion in holy water, both lesser undead as well as death titans can be destroyed without risk of reanimation.

Exorcism
Incorporeal shades are little more than mad ghosts, and thus are impossible to dispose of without some form of exorcism. Much like ghosts, a banished shade will reappear 2d4 days later unless the source of their anguish is dealt with. Despite their corporeal manifestation, swordwraiths behave similarly - unless exorcised or otherwise laid to rest, a slain swordwraith will reform 2d4 days later at the site of their haunting.

Exorcism is a practice that essentially involves severing an undead's connection with its subject of haunting, usually by calling on the natural spirits of the land itself, though sometimes by begging the aid of a higher power. An exorcist who knows the right sort of ritual spends ten consecutive rounds chanting or speaking the appropriate words, at the end of which the exorcist must make a DC 20 Knowledge (Religion) check. If the exorcist's concentration is interrupted the ritual must begin again.

If successful, the presence is forced to manifest for one round. The exorcist can choose to continue the ritual, making another DC 20 Knowledge (Religion) check each round to force the haunting presence to remain manifested for an additional round. If the presence is destroyed during this period, its connection to the haunting is severed. It may still return as a ghost at some point, albeit one with no particular attachment to the location or events it previously haunted. Because of this the haunting presence is effectively pacified.

Ghouls
Ghouls are perhaps more easily disposed of than other forms of undead, in that they do not become more difficult to destroy the more you fail to do so. Ghouls get Regeneration 5 (despite their undead state), shrugging off all wounds not dealt by fire, holy water, or decapitation. A ghoul reduced to 0 by any other form of damage enters a state of torpor, at which point they can be killed with a coup de grace. It is worth noting that a ghoul killed by fire or decapitation may still revive as some form of lesser undead (a zombie, flaming skeleton, or in the worst cases a shade), so holy water remains the best solution.

Vampires
Vampires are produced by occult ritual, which kills the subject while leaving their soul bound to the corpse, allowing for an eternal false-life. Vampires are powerful but their ghostlike souls may slowly go mad over the ages. A vampire whose sanity is reduced to 0 becomes a ghoul, losing most of its power as well as the ability to reform a body once its current one is destroyed. A vampire can create servants in the form of hooded pupils by feeding them their blood each night for three days. If a hooded pupil dies, it returns as a vampire 1d4 days after burial as if it had been killed by a vampire's blood drain (losing the hooded pupil template in the process, of course). Vampires can freely take levels in Dread Necromancer. Upon qualifying for the lich template, they become "Ancients" and gain qualities of a lich in addition to their extant template.

New Vampire Template
Size and Type: Type changes to undead. Size unchanged.
Hit Dice: Increase all current and future Hit Dice to d12s.
Speed: Same as base creature.
Armor Class: NAB +10 or base creature's NAB +6, whichever is higher.
Attack: Gain Slam attack.
Damage:

Tiny
1d4


Small
1d6


Medium
1d8


Large
2d6


Huge
2d8


Gargantuan
2d10


Colossal
4d8


Special Attacks: All saves are DC (10 + 1/2 HD + CHA).
Blood Drain (Ex): A vampire can suck blood from a living victim with its fangs by making a successful grapple check. If it pins the foe, it drains blood, dealing 1d4 points of CON drain each round the pin is maintained. On each successful attack, the vampire gains 5 temporary HP for up to one hour.
Children of the Night (Su): Vampires command the lesser creatures of the world and once per day can call forth nocturnal beasts to do their bidding. These creatures vary from vampire to vampire, but their combined CR never exceeds the vampire's CR -2. The summoned beasts arrive in 2d6 rounds and serve the vampire for up to an hour.
Despair (Su): At the mere sight of a vampire, the viewer must make a successful Will save of be paralyzed with fear for 1d4 rounds Whether or not the save is successful, that targt cannot be affected by that vampire's despair ability for 24 hours. The vampire can suppress this ability at will.
Suggestion (Su): A vampire can make a suggestion to any number of targets within 30 ft (Will negates). This is the equivalent of a suggestion spell (caster level 12th). The vampire can pick and choose which targets to affect with the ability.
Create Spawn (Su): A sentient creature slain by a vampire's blood drain rises as a vampire 1d4 days after burial. The new vampire is under the command of the vampire that created it and remains enslaved until its master's destruction. At any given time a vampire may have enslaved spawn totaling no more than twice its own HD; any spawn it creates that would exceed this limit are created as free-willed vampires. A vampire that is enslaved may create and enslave spawn of its own, so a master vampire can control a number of lesser vampires in this fashion. A vampire may voluntarily free an enslaved spawn in order to enslave a new spawn, but once freed a vampire cannot be enslaved again.
Mummy Rot (Su):

Supernatural Disease
Natural Weapon


Fort DC
as above.


Incubation Period
1 minute.


Damage
1d6 CON, 1d6 CHA


Unlike normal diseases, mummy rot persists until the victim reaces CON 0 and dies, or is cured.
Mummy rot is a powerful curse, not a natural disease. A reature attempting to have any conjuration (healing) spell cast upon the afflicted must make a DC 20 caster level check or else the spell has no effect. To eliminate mummy rot, the curse must first be broken, after which caster level checks are no longer necessary and mummy rot can be cured as any normal disease.
An afflicted creature that dies of mummy rot shrivels away into dust that blows away into nothing at the first wind.
This ability can be suppressed by the vampire at will.
Special Qualities:
Alternate Form (Su): A vampire can assume the shape of certain nocturnal creatures - always of the same or dire varieties as those summoned by their Children of the Night ability. While in its alternate form, the vampire loses its natural slam attack and suggestion ability, but gains the natural weapons and special abilities of its new form. It can remain in that form until it assumes another or until the next sunrise.
Damage Reduction (Su):
DR 5/--
DR 10/silver and magic.
A vampire's natural weapons are treated as magic weapons for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction.
Fast Healing (Su): A vampire has Fast Healing 5 so long as it has at least one hit point. If reduced to 0 hit points in combat, it automatically assumes gaseous form and attempts to escape. It must reach its coffin home within 2 hours or enter torpor (it can travel up to nine miles in 2 hours). Any additional damage dealt to a vampire forced into gaseous form has no effect. Once at rest in its coffin, a vampire is helpless. It regains one hit point after one hour, then is no longer helpless and resumes Fast Healing 5.
Gaseous Form (Su): As a standard action, a vampire can assume gaseous form as the spell (caster level 5th), but it can remain gaseous indefinitely and has a fly speed of 20 ft. (perfect).
Resistances (Ex): A vampire has Resist Cold 10 and Resist Electricity 10.
Spider Climb (Su): A vampire can climb sheer surfaces as though with a spider climb spell.
Turn Resistance (Ex): A vampire has +4 turn resistance.
Vulnerability to Fire (Ex): A vampire takes +50% damage as normal from fire attacks.
Abilities:

STR
+8


DEX
+4


CON
--


INT
+2


WIS
+4


CHA
+4


Skills: +8 Bluff/Perception/Search/Sense Motive/Stealth
Feats:
Alertness
Combat Reflexes
Dodge
Improved Initiative
Lightning Reflexes
CR +3

Vampire Weaknesses
Repelling a Vampire: Vampires cannot tolerate the odor of garlic and will not enter an area laced with it. Vampires are also unable to cross running water, although they can be carried over while resting in their coffin or aboard a ship. They are utterly unable to enter a home or other building unless invited by someone with authority to do so. They may freely enter public spaces, since these are by definition open to all.
Slaying a Vampire: Vampires are nearly impossible to destroy permanently. Exposing a vampire to sunlight does not destory it as many myths indicate, but instead suppresses their supernatural abilities. Immersing a vampire in running water robs it of one third of its hit points per round, forcing it into torpor after the third round of immersion.
Driving a stake through the vampire's heart (of any material, it need not be wood) also forces the vampire into torpor until the stake is removed.
Torpor: A vampire forced into torpor is, for all intents and purposes, dead. However, the instant blood comes into contact with the remains (even if those remains are mere dust), the vampire will return to un-life. The first time a vampire comes back from torpor, it gains the swarm-shifter template as a result of learning how to reconstitute its form.

Nukekubi
Vampires that experience decapitation (either while in torpor or before rising as a vampire to begin with) become Nukekubi (rather than develop the swarm-shifter template), and gain the following abilities instead:
Speed: Fly 50 ft. (Good) in Detached Form.
Attack: Gain Entrail attack (Detached Form only) and Bite attack (all forms).
Damage:

Size
Entrail
Bite


Tiny
1d2
1d3


Small
1d3
1d4


Medium
1d4
1d6


Large
1d6
1d8


Huge
1d8
2d6


Gargantuan
2d6
2d8


Colossal
2d8
4d6



Special Attacks:
Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, the nukekubi must hit with its entrails attack. If it gets hold, it can constrict and bite.
Constrict (Ex): A nukekubi deals automatic entrails damage to an opponent of its size or smaller with a successful grapple check.
Special Qualities:
Alternate Form (Su): A nukekubi can make itself appear humanoid by squeezing its entrails back into the shell of its original body. (It must first soak the entrails in vinegar to reduce their engorgement.) If the body is destroyed while the head is separated from it, the nukekubi enters torpor after 1d4 days. Nukekubi in their detached form also enter torpor if exposed to the sun for more than one round. This torpor ends when they are removed from direct sunlight.
Fear Aura (Su): As a free action, a nukekubi in its detached form can can create an aura of fear in a 30-foot radius. Cratures within this distance of the nukekubi must succeed a Will save or become shaken. This is in addition to the natural aura of despair all vampires can emit.

Ancient
"Ancient" is a template that can be added to a vampire in place of the Lich template given by Dread Necromancer 20.
Size and Type: Unchanged.
Hit Dice: Unchanged.
Armor Class: Unchanged.
Attacks: A vampire ancient has a touch attack it can use once per round.
Damage: A vampire ancient has a touch attack that uses negative energy to deal 1d8 +5 points of damage to living creatures; a Will save halves this damage. Alternatively, the vampire ancient can channel this energy through one of its natural weapon attacks, dealing 1d8 +5 points of extra damage.
Special Attacks:
Feat Aura (Su): Vampire ancients are shrouded in a dreadful aura of death. Creatures of less than 5 HD in a 60 foot radius that look at the vampire ancient must succeed on a Will save or be affected as though by a fear spell from a sorcerer of the vampire ancient's level. A creature that successfully saves cannot be affected again by the same vampire ancient's aura for 24 hours. This is in addition to any other fear auras the vampire ancient may have.
Paralyzing Touch (Su): Any living creature a vampire ancient hits with its touch attack must succeed on a Fort save or be permanently paralyzed. Any effect that can remove a curse can free the victim. The effect cannot be dispelled. Anyone paralyzed by the vampire ancient seems dead, though a DC 20 Perception check or a DC 15 Heal check reveals that the victim is still alive.
Special Qualities:
Turn Resistance (Ex): A vampire ancient's turn resistance increases by +4.
Damage Reduction (Su): DR 15/bludgeoning and magic.
This overlaps but does not replace a normal vampire's DR 10/silver and magic. The vampire ancient retains DR 5/-- in addition to this. (In other words, a normal weapon deals 15 points less against a vampire ancient. If the weapon is a magical bludgeoning weapon, it still deals 10 points less than normal. If the weapon is also silver, it only deals 5 points less than normal).
Immunities (Ex): A vampire ancient has immunity to cold, electricity, polymorph (though they can still use polymorph effects on themselves), and mind-affecting attacks.
Abilities:

INT
+2


WIS
+2


CHA
+2


CR +2

The Vampire's Phylactery
A key component in becoming a vampire ancient is creating a phylactery, in which the vampire stores a bit of its essence. With this, a vampire may resist torpor by reconstituting themselves near the phylactery 1d10 days after their "death," their previous remains crumbling into ash. If the phylactery is destroyed, the vampire ancient is once again subject to torpor, although it is possible to create a new phylactery, albeit with great difficulty and cost (120,000gp and lengthy rituals).

Draconic Undead
Skeletons – Use Skeletal Dragon template.
Zombies – Use Zombie Dragon template if Adult or older, use Zombie template otherwise.
Vampires – Use Vampire template.
Ghosts – Roll Ghost and Ghostly Dragon templates together – the dragon may select abilities from either template.

Other Undead


CR 4
Corpse Rat Swarm



Skulking Cyst



Skeletal Warbeast


CR 5
Ephemeral Swarm


CR 6
Bloodmote Cloud


--


CR 7
Skirr



Death Scarab Swarm


CR 8
--


CR 9
--


--
--


CR 13
Charnel Hound


CR 14
Necronaut



Boneyard


CR 15
--


--


CR 16
Dream Vestige


CR 17
--


CR 18
--



Discounting undead swarms, nonstandard undead seem to come in two varieties; necromantic chimeras built from parts of several different bodies, and “death titans” formed from the amalgamation of countless souls and bodies. The former are popular “experiments” for necromancers, while the latter are akin to walking natural disasters born from intense emotion and tragedy.

noob
2018-09-22, 04:56 AM
So how are the players going to deal with undead if they have low access to magic?
If you remove magic all undead with any form of stat reduction or disease should get massively increased cr due to how you have barely any way to counter those.(if the one you meet right now did not kill you then the next one will and if it does not then there is always more)
even then it is not necessarily manageable since at level 20 you will not have more stuff to counter stat drain(no spellcasting and low magic) but according to how crs works you would be supposed to meet way more undead per day(so for example you are supposed to be able to fight 128 cr 10 undead(per groups of 32) per day at level 20 so if those cr 10 undead can inflict stat drain it becomes unmanageable very fast)
However it is still way more manageable than casting monsters.
In a low magic world mostly avoid casting monsters: they are close to unmanageable for a low magic team.
Like how the heck can a non casting team fight a dread necromancer vampire: he just have to flee and a few days later he can attack back with an army of undead demons.

Drakevarg
2018-09-22, 11:23 AM
So how are the players going to deal with undead if they have low access to magic?

Fire, silver, holy water, skill, and luck. Just like any undead slayer from any setting where reality-bending isn't sold at a corner store.


If you remove magic all undead with any form of stat reduction or disease should get massively increased cr due to how you have barely any way to counter those.(if the one you meet right now did not kill you then the next one will and if it does not then there is always more)

Diseases and ability damage both heal naturally. It just means that adventures take place over days and weeks, not hours and days. Downtime, preptime, and noncombat approaches to problems become more prominent.


even then it is not necessarily manageable since at level 20 you will not have more stuff to counter stat drain(no spellcasting and low magic) but according to how crs works you would be supposed to meet way more undead per day(so for example you are supposed to be able to fight 128 cr 10 undead(per groups of 32) per day at level 20 so if those cr 10 undead can inflict stat drain it becomes unmanageable very fast)

I really can't see a scenario in which a party would fight 128 undead in a single day in my setting, especially not undead that powerful. If something like that presented itself in the story, by that point the party would probably have learned that something that has gone that out of hand is probably not the kind of problem that can be bludgeoned to death.


However it is still way more manageable than casting monsters.
In a low magic world mostly avoid casting monsters: they are close to unmanageable for a low magic team.
Like how the heck can a non casting team fight a dread necromancer vampire: he just have to flee and a few days later he can attack back with an army of undead demons.

Generally speaking, you don't. Vampires and dragons are two things in my setting where "kick in the door and kill it" are basically out of the question. Slaying a vampire is the kind of thing that would involve weeks of planning, a ton of resources, and carefully chosen circumstances.

Is the general gist of this post just "low-magic is bad and you should feel bad"? Because I'm really, really sick of having that debate.

noob
2018-09-22, 12:16 PM
The premise of my previous post is not "low magic is bad" but rather "Your setting is high magic but only for the undead so how come the undead are not the masters of the world?"(without your house rules it would already be the case)
And blessed water is definitively magical and even needs a spell called bless water for being created(or good aligned outsiders or powerful servants of gods) so it is not something people can get on a moment notice in a low magic setting.
And saying "oh so you fought undead and you will need way more time to recover from the encounter than if you fought other monsters of the same cr" is really weird: cr is a measure of how much the monster is a threat to the adventurers and if the undead can press on without needing to coordinate thanks to stat drain they are going to prove way harder to counter especially if they can go around and make more undead while you are recovering from the first fights so in fact undead with stat drain are way more a threat than classical bruising monsters of the same cr and other similar stuff.


Fire, silver, holy water, skill, and luck
Only two of them helps against ghosts and shadows and even then it usually deals so low damage the incorporeal undead can more or less ignore it(there is no way in the rules as written to deal high damage with fire or holy water and incorporeal undead are impossible to hit without magical weapons).



I really can't see a scenario in which a party would fight 128 undead in a single day in my setting, especially not undead that powerful. If something like that presented itself in the story, by that point the party would probably have learned that something that has gone that out of hand is probably not the kind of problem that can be bludgeoned to death.

Explain how can one of your cities or town defend against a single oniric vestige.
Also once the oniric vestige kills the defenders of the town it is free buffet time and it will split in tons of oniric vestiges.
I guess there might be somewhere a cr 10 incorporeal spawn creating undead and it would probably be equally unmanageable by the defenses a town can get
Ok I got something quite close and it is called crypt singer.
You can look it up and try to guess how can a town defend against it with only holy water and fire since those are the only non magical stuff that works against incorporeal undead.(do not forget they can get tons of temp hp with animals in the wild lands)
Oh guess what? You need to add nuclear bombs or say that all water ever is blessed or the town simply can not beat those threats and even then it is very hard.

Here is a "low magic artifact" that is just like your "low magic undead"(which are in fact high magic undead but with extra powers)

Orbital holy beam satellite of obliteration:
This satellite orbiting the planet is said to be a star concentrated by the power of a god which sacrified itself for creating it.
When there is too many undead creations in a short time at a place in the world the Orbital holy beam satellite of obliteration shoots pure concentrated holy power thus killing all forms of unlife and of life in a radius of 50 kilometers of the impact point either by being anathema to it or by overwhelming it with energy.
afterwards all matter in the area is blessed with holy energy and water turns in super holy water thus making the area unlivable for both undead and living people.
Ten years after the impact the area is still deadly but it now only deals 1d6 damage per turn to living creatures within it (2d6 for people within 10 kilometers of the middle) and undead takes 10 times the damage.
at that moment collecting materials from that zone is possible and everything made from materials of that zone deals 1d6 damage per round to undead it touch(or 1d4 damage per impact) except for water which is then super holy water which deals twice the damage of holy water but ten years later only water contains any trace of the power from the impact and all the super holy water is now regular holy water.

Drakevarg
2018-09-22, 12:52 PM
And blessed water is definitively magical and even needs a spell called bless water for being created(or good aligned outsiders or powerful servants of gods) so it is not something people can get on a moment notice in a low magic setting.

I've got a system for nonmagical potion brewing, as well as some minor "peasant magic" which can be used by anyone who knows how (basically along the same line as exorcisms listed up there, stuff like salt circles and other minor tricks). Holy water isn't something you can get at the shop but it's definitely obtainable.


And saying "oh so you fought undead and you will need way more time to recover from the encounter than if you fought other monsters of the same cr" is really weird: cr is a measure of how much the monster is a threat to the adventurers and if the undead can press on without needing to coordinate thanks to stat drain they are going to prove way harder to counter especially if they can go around and make more undead while you are recovering from the first fights so in fact undead with stat drain are way more a threat than classical bruising monsters of the same cr and other similar stuff.

Well since I'm not running an MMO, I don't exactly have the CR rating of monsters floating over their heads. When something is trying to kill you, generally in-character judgement is the source of threat-gauging. The players know the undead are dangerous, and if they're in a situation where falling back to recover is going to let the thing propagate out of control then priority would probably be to find someone who can deal with it. Like coordinating with the guards or something, teaching them how to fight things like that. Undead + large population center = not just your problem. Undead - large population center = not likely to be a problem in the next few days.

Nobody ever said fighting off the horrors of the unliving was supposed to be convenient.


Only two of them helps against ghosts and shadows and even then it usually deals so low damage the incorporeal undead can more or less ignore it(there is no way in the rules as written to deal high damage with fire or holy water and incorporeal undead are impossible to hit without magical weapons).

True enough, but there are ways to deal with it. It's just not something you can blunder into unprepared. Jade weapons, for example, are effective against the incorporeal.


Explain how can one of your cities or town defend against a single oniric vestige.
Also once the oniric vestige kills the defenders of the town it is free buffet time and it will split in tons of oniric vestiges.

I did describe death titans as walking natural disasters for a reason.


I guess there might be somewhere a cr 10 incorporeal spawn creating undead and it would probably be equally unmanageable by the defenses a town can get
Ok I got something quite close and it is called crypt singer.
you can look it up and try to guess how can a town defend against it with only holy water and fire since those are the only non magical stuff that works against incorporeal undead.(do not forget they can get tons of temp hp and additional crypt singers with animals in the wild lands)

Which if crypt singers were a thing in my setting, that might be an issue. They're not, so it's not.

noob
2018-09-22, 01:14 PM
I've got a system for nonmagical potion brewing, as well as some minor "peasant magic" which can be used by anyone who knows how (basically along the same line as exorcisms listed up there, stuff like salt circles and other minor tricks). Holy water isn't something you can get at the shop but it's definitely obtainable.



Well since I'm not running an MMO, I don't exactly have the CR rating of monsters floating over their heads. When something is trying to kill you, generally in-character judgement is the source of threat-gauging. The players know the undead are dangerous, and if they're in a situation where falling back to recover is going to let the thing propagate out of control then priority would probably be to find someone who can deal with it. Like coordinating with the guards or something, teaching them how to fight things like that. Undead + large population center = not just your problem. Undead - large population center = not likely to be a problem in the next few days.

Nobody ever said fighting off the horrors of the unliving was supposed to be convenient.



True enough, but there are ways to deal with it. It's just not something you can blunder into unprepared. Jade weapons, for example, are effective against the incorporeal.



I did describe death titans as walking natural disasters for a reason.



Which if crypt singers were a thing in my setting, that might be an issue. They're not, so it's not.

crs are not about convenience it is about representing the actual threat monsters are to an adventurer team.
crs in the base manuals are made from data obtained by a team of two casters and two mundanes fighting monsters.
If we switch to 4 mundanes all crs have to be calculated again for example everything incorporeal grows in cr considerably: an incorporeal creature that can be hit only by fire and holy water is way more a threat than when you can shoot your bow and swing your sword at it and hit in 50% of the cases(thanks to magical weapons) and thus should have its cr measure adapted.

Also why did you not mention the existence of jade before in the list of stuff for fighting undead?

How do your town defends against shadows since you mentioned those explicitly (and they also have spawn creation)
you would need all your villagers to have jade weapons or the shade might just use its incorporealness for sweeping in and hitting citizens behind the lines.

Even worse once a shadow converted a dozen of people then it becomes nearly impossible to beat that swarm faster than it can make spawn and once it got a town it can start destroying all the other towns or collapse in an intangible undead titan and there is only one of them and it is the oniric vestige which is mentioned as being problematic.

Also exorcism is basically impossible to do on incorporeal undead: do you except them to sit and watch for 10 rounds?

Basically your low magic world needs to only have level 10 or more people equipped with jade weapons in order to not get destroyed by undead which then means that your adventures starts at level 10 since all people are born at level 10 and equipped with jade weapons(pregnancy must really hurt).

Drakevarg
2018-09-22, 01:31 PM
crs are not about convenience it is about representing the actual threat monsters are to an adventurer team.
crs in the base manuals are made from data obtained by a team of two casters and two mundanes fighting monsters.
If we switch to 4 mundanes all crs have to be calculated again for example everything incorporeal grows in cr considerably: an incorporeal creature that can be hit only by fire and holy water is way more a threat than when you can shoot your bow and swing your sword at it and hit in 50% of the cases(thanks to magical weapons) and thus should have its cr measure adapted.

So do you have any blanket increase in mind to CRs for incorporeal creatures, given the limited access to tools that can affect them?


Also why did you not mention the existence of jade before in the list of stuff for fighting undead?

Partially because it's in Oriental Adventures, not a houserule. And partially because I only noticed it in that book last night while researching a way to adapt magic items to be craftable by mundanes using rituals and the like.


How do your town defends against shadows since you mentioned those explicitly (and they also have spawn creation)
you would need all your villagers to have jade weapons or the shade might just use its incorporealness for sweeping in and hitting citizens behind the lines.

Jade weapons are an option, as is maintaining passive wards (of the peasant magic variety, simple superstitious stuff you'd expect people in a world with such things to do passively, like line their walls with salt), careful application of holy water, and so forth.

Some of it also requires reliance on the fact that shadows are not exactly sane. They're driven by powerful emotions like rage or despair, they're not going to be utilizing complex tactics so much as they're going to lash out savagely against whatever disturbed them. In such circumstances as that bringing down a horde of shadows on an entire town (which has happened in a campaign of mine before, didn't end well for the town), priority would be less on fighting them off and more on surviving the night and figuring out how to put them to rest.


Also exorcism is basically impossible to do on incorporeal undead: you except them to sit and watch for 10 rounds?

Exorcism only forces a presence to manifest and allows them to be ripped from their haunting. Aside from simply attacking the exorcist (which is of course a possibility, which is why you usually need to guard them), there's not much the haunting presence can do about it.

SodaQueen
2018-09-22, 03:31 PM
I mean, in a low magic setting, undead are anything but trivial to deal with. Even in standard settings, a zombie is a tough challenge for a low level party without a cleric.

Also, is your setting posted here? It's hard to gauge how these changes will work in a low magic setting without knowing that there are non magic magic potions and non magic jade magic weapons that can affect incorporeal undead.

Drakevarg
2018-09-22, 03:48 PM
I mean, in a low magic setting, undead are anything but trivial to deal with. Even in standard settings, a zombie is a tough challenge for a low level party without a cleric.

But still subject to simple bludgeoning, which is the main thing I wanted to avert.


Also, is your setting posted here? It's hard to gauge how these changes will work in a low magic without knowing that there non magic magic potions and non magic jade magic weapons that can affect incorporeal undead.

It's not, mostly because it's scattered across dozens of documents and half of it is in my head. Aside from being in a continual state of tweaking on multiple fronts, it's just a lot of work to organize all that into a state suitable to be presented to a broad audience. I am, however, perfectly happy to clarify on specific points where relevant.

Broadly speaking, casters are just not a thing unless relevant to the story. "Mundane" monsters are commonplace to the point that humans couldn't really be said to be at the top of the food chain, and most supernatural entities (Fae, Outsiders, Elementals, whatever) are broadly categorized under "spirits" of the roughly animist variety. Dragons are functionally deities since unlike basically everything else they can use magic freely, and since they take class levels on top of their other abilities, their statblocks basically change to "1d4 investigators per round" towards the end of their development.

In regards to the undead specifically, ghosts are fairly normal given that roughly 80% of mortal deaths produce one, but they're usually not any more if a hassle than they are in our world (if you're the sort who believes in them). On the other end of the spectrum, vampires are basically the most dangerous things in the setting short of dragons and a powerful one could go full Castlevania if they had a mind to. In between, most undead are just localized incidents like zombies wandering around swamps and catacombs. Dangerous, but can generally be dealt with by a professional like most other monsters. Outbreaks can happen sure, but the same can be said of plague.

rferries
2018-09-22, 07:40 PM
1) I quite like the worldbuilding/lore here.

2) What is the mindless vs savage distinction? Is savage just a low Int score?

3) I also like your progression of undead (various corporeal undead degenerating into each other, various incorporeal undead degenerating into each other). It really evokes the classic image in fiction of a zombie's severed body parts still grasping and clawing at the protagonists.

4) Death Titans feel very "high magic", due to their size if nothing else.

5) Exorcism is a cool spin on turning undead.

6) WRT Vampires - what was the inspiration for creating them through an occult ritual? Also, although they've been associated with plague and even Ancient Egypt in fiction the mummy rot doesn't feel appropriate.

The revived-from-torpor-by-a-bit-of-blood is cool and aligns with many works of fiction, but it really does seem too hard to slay them permanently. Making them connected to liches also seems a bit forced. However that's all subjective of course, depends on the campaign setting.

7) I'll echo the other comments about undead possibly being too powerful in your setting. Could you give us an example of some of your PC builds, and the mechanics of the anti-undead defenses available to NPCs, so we could estimate how they'd fare against your undead?

Drakevarg
2018-09-22, 08:19 PM
2) What is the mindless vs savage distinction? Is savage just a low Int score?

Mindless is no INT score. Savage means intelligent but feral. Ghouls and shades both are technically intelligent, but are driven more by ravenous hunger/out-of-control emotion than by rational thought.


4) Death Titans feel very "high magic", due to their size if nothing else.

They're meant to be treated more like walking natural disasters than things you just fight. They're not likely to happen "just because," something would have to get pretty thoroughly out of hand for one to form.


5) Exorcism is a cool spin on turning undead.

It's derived from exorcism rules found in Heroes of Horror/Libris Mortis. I just tweaked it a bit to have broader application.


6) WRT Vampires - what was the inspiration for creating them through an occult ritual? Also, although they've been associated with plague and even Ancient Egypt in fiction the mummy rot doesn't feel appropriate.

The mummy rot was the result of combining the vampire and mummy templates together, to consolidate the varieties of undead running around.


The revived-from-torpor-by-a-bit-of-blood is cool and aligns with many works of fiction, but it really does seem too hard to slay them permanently. Making them connected to liches also seems a bit forced. However that's all subjective of course, depends on the campaign setting.

Vampires are all but impossible to slay permanently. In most cases the best you can hope for is to destroy it or seal it away long enough that you'll be centuries dead by the time it comes back. Or drive it insane so it devolves to a ghoul and kill it then. Lich was, again, an attempt to keep the number of conceptually redundant undead variants down (while also furthering the archetype of the vampire as a near-force-of-nature).


7) I'll echo the other comments about undead possibly being too powerful in your setting. Could you give us an example of some of your PC builds, and the mechanics of the anti-undead defenses available to NPCs, so we could estimate how they'd fare against your undead?

Most people simply aren't going to have to worry about undead - they don't just prowl around the countryside looking for lives to ruin. Professional monster slayers might patrol the roads disposing of corpses to make sure they don't rise up and attack travelers (anoint with holy water, burn, bury under a rock, whatever), or send an exorcist out to an old ruin to deal with an angry spirit, but it's not a standing concern or anything.

When things do get out of hand - a death titan, or just a swarm of lesser undead driven towards a population center for some reason - the response is going to be about the same as an invading army. Fight it if you can, flee if you can't. Humanity is already in a perpetual state of siege in this setting just because of all the megafauna wandering around. Being attacked by a bear the size of a monster truck is a more daily concern than a few zombies are.

Vampires, on the other hand, basically boil down to the same tactic as a dragon: just hope really, really hard it doesn't want you dead, make nice with it if you can.

A few basic tactics that I think would work if forced to deal with the more common sorts en masse:

Zombies
They're just shuffling corpses. Keep them at bay with spears and chop them to pieces, then bury the pieces under something heavy. Use holy water if you have it, but since you probably don't... burning them might just lead to flaming skeletons but those flaming skeletons are more fragile. Smash them apart and then bury the pieces before they put themselves back together.

Shadows
The wealthy and professional monster slayers would both probably have access to jade weapons, as a status symbol for the former and as a contingency for the latter. Additionally, simple wards could be set up using salt or powdered silver to keep spirits from passing through. Better defended places might build such protections directly into the walls as a basic tradition, while more basic structures might just line the walls with salt on the off chance something passes through.

Ghouls
Probably the most likely to actually generate a stereotypical ravenous horde of undead, simple burning and decapitation does work. Post-battle, proper burial rituals could be observed to keep them from just coming back as something else.

Ghosts
Salt and exorcism in a pinch, otherwise just figure out what's upsetting them. Not likely to attack in numbers, since any kind of huge injustice that would motivate them to do so would likely just produce shades.

Swordwraiths
Not much harder to kill than a mortal, trick is keeping them down. Same rules as ghosts otherwise.

SodaQueen
2018-09-22, 10:55 PM
So, you put PEACH in the title but I'm not sure how much you want people to actually critique your work. If you're just posting it here for posterity or to organize your thoughts, more power to you. But you don't seem to be actually acknowledging anyone's feedback. Every point is deflected with a variation of "no, no see, it's okay because of this..."

Please don't ask for critique then blow off every bit of critique provided to you. We're trying to help your project you know.

That said, these modifications are fine for a standard D&D game (if a bit too complex for my tastes) but way too powerful for a low magic campaign. And tbh their existence and extreme power does raise some questions about the world as a whole (while I otherwise quite like the lore) like how anyone can exist in a world where undead are this powerful yet the living are so weak.

I'm not saying your undead can't work but if I was a player in this campaign, I'd feel cheated if I signed on to a low magic game where all of the undead are super high magic (which these very much are).

Drakevarg
2018-09-22, 11:17 PM
So, you put PEACH in the title but I'm not sure how much you want people to actually critique your work. If you're just posting it here for posterity or to organize your thoughts, more power to you. But you don't seem to be actually acknowledging anyone's feedback. Every point is deflected with a variation of "no, no see, it's okay because of this..."

Please don't ask for critique then blow off every bit of critique provided to you. We're trying to help your project you know.

If I come off as defensive in my responses, I apologize. Aside from perhaps from reflexive twitchiness (I have had the "D&D does not do low magic well" argument many, many times on these forums and I'm automatically on guard against that by now), I'm merely explaining my logic, not arguing against flaws. For the most part the input I've gotten is pretty much what I've been looking for.


That said, these modifications are fine for a standard D&D game (if a bit too complex for my tastes) but way too powerful for a low magic campaign. And tbh their existence and extreme power does raise some questions about the world as a whole (while I otherwise quite like the lore) like how anyone can exist in a world where undead are this powerful yet the living are so weak.

I'm not saying your undead can't work but if I was a player in this campaign, I'd feel cheated if I signed on to a low magic game where all of the undead are super high magic (which these very much are)

To resort to citing a non-D&D setting for comparison, part of my inspiration for these undead came from the Thief series; undead are extremely difficult to kill (if you don't have holy water or explosives they're basically just gonna keep getting back up a few seconds after you take them down), but aren't really the focus of the setting and are only encountered in lonely places that most people quite understandably avoid.

Similarly in my setting, undead can be incredibly dangerous and aren't meant to be tackled without forethought - and in some cases can seem utterly insurmountable for mortals - but at the end of the day aren't normal occurrences. Some people might go their whole lives without seeing one, if only because they know not to stray near haunted places. The reason the setting can survive with such powerful things is the same reason the world can survive plague and war - they're horrible, but not ubiquitous.

aimlessPolymath
2018-09-23, 12:15 AM
Sorry, something I can't find:


If reduced to zero HP, a zombie enters a state similar to a vampire's torpor until their fast healing returns them to maximum HP,

What fast healing? Is this the "wait 1 hour, then fast healing 5" from the vampire entry? Because zombies don't have the base 5 fast healing that vampires do. A vampire's torpor only reactivates them when they touch blood; is this zombie-equivalent?


A skeleton or fossil is less tenacious than a zombie, and thus will attempt to reanimate via the swarm-shifter's healing ability I'm not sure how this is different from what a zombie does.

Are undead vulnerable to a cleric's destroy undead ability? Does it actually destroy them?

Do swordwraiths, shadows, wendigo have their own reanimation abilities?

Drakevarg
2018-09-23, 12:43 AM
What fast healing? Is this the "wait 1 hour, then fast healing 5" from the vampire entry? Because zombies don't have the base 5 fast healing that vampires do. A vampire's torpor only reactivates them when they touch blood; is this zombie-equivalent?

The Unkillable variant for zombies from Libris Mortis gives zombies Fast Healing 5. "Torpor similar to a vampire's" just means the deathlike state itself. Unlike a vampire which takes one hour to return to 1 HP once they've reached their coffin, a zombie is just going to start healing 5/round immediately, though it doesn't leave torpor until it's full healed.


I'm not sure how this is different from what a zombie does.

As just covered, zombies have Fast Healing 5. A skeleton can only heal via the swarm-shifter thing, which heals (if I'm recalling correctly) 1 HP per HD each time it moves between normal and swarm form (or vice versa).


Are undead vulnerable to a cleric's destroy undead ability? Does it actually destroy them?

No clerics, non-factor.


Do swordwraiths, shadows, wendigo have their own reanimation abilities?

Wendigo I'm not certain on, haven't really decided where they fit in all this, but swordwraiths and shadows merely respawn 2d4 days later like a ghost does.

rferries
2018-09-23, 11:40 AM
Righto, thanks for the reply. I still worry that even a single zombie or skeleton might be too powerful - what happens if low-level PCs kill one with with fire damage, and end up with a Tomb Dust swarm on their hands? Immune to weapon damage, able to heal itself even without fast healing, and fly speed of 60 (perfect)? That could easily be a TPK even at moderate levels, without magic.

Perhaps set a delay/hindrance on the undead - every time they're transformed into a new type of undead they need 1d4 rounds (or as much as 24 hours) to regain their bearings before attacking again.

Alternatively, the efficacy of holy water against undead could be increased in your setting. It could deal 10d6 (+/-) damage instead of 2d4, or force a Fortitude save to avoid destruction, perhaps?

Drakevarg
2018-09-23, 01:16 PM
Righto, thanks for the reply. I still worry that even a single zombie or skeleton might be too powerful - what happens if low-level PCs kill one with with fire damage, and end up with a Tomb Dust swarm on their hands? Immune to weapon damage, able to heal itself even without fast healing, and fly speed of 60 (perfect)? That could easily be a TPK even at moderate levels, without magic.

You might have a point there. I wanted it as a "you dun goofed" condition, but at that level of bodily destruction it might make more sense just to have them become a shade. Different set of abilities, but honestly probably technically easier to fight.


Perhaps set a delay/hindrance on the undead - every time they're transformed into a new type of undead they need 1d4 rounds (or as much as 24 hours) to regain their bearings before attacking again.

That's what the torpor/healing cycle clause is intended to be for. None of these variations just get right back up after dropping to 0 with a powerup, they need to heal back to max health before leaving torpor. For a random peasant zombie with ~20 HP, that's four rounds. A skeleton only has half the HD of a zombie, but it also only heals 1 HP per HD each time it changes shape (as per the swarm-shifter template). Since the only thing it can do at first is attempt to return to full HP, that's over a minute of attempting to pull itself back together.


Alternatively, the efficacy of holy water against undead could be increased in your setting. It could deal 10d6 (+/-) damage instead of 2d4, or force a Fortitude save to avoid destruction, perhaps?

I'm not really a fan of massive damage stuff like that. Makes a creature's actual HP seem less important than an esoteric game of rock-paper-scissors. On the other hand, 2d4 does become quaint pretty quickly. How about as per lava? 2d6 damage from exposure, 20d6 for total immersion. Continues to damage for 1d3 rounds after contact, but only for half damage (1d6 for exposure, 10d6 for immersion).

Allows for really tough things to potentially power through (and anything with that much health deserves the chance), but is still extremely effective, especially compared to alternative tactics.

rferries
2018-09-23, 01:30 PM
You might have a point there. I wanted it as a "you dun goofed" condition, but at that level of bodily destruction it might make more sense just to have them become a shade. Different set of abilities, but honestly probably technically easier to fight.

Sounds good, and streamlines things to boot! :)


That's what the torpor/healing cycle clause is intended to be for. None of these variations just get right back up after dropping to 0 with a powerup, they need to heal back to max health before leaving torpor. For a random peasant zombie with ~20 HP, that's four rounds. A skeleton only has half the HD of a zombie, but it also only heals 1 HP per HD each time it changes shape (as per the swarm-shifter template). Since the only thing it can do at first is attempt to return to full HP, that's over a minute of attempting to pull itself back together.

The average zombie has only 11 hp - so that's still only three rounds for the PCs to bury/incapacitate it. If there's more than one zombie they could easily be impossible to deal with, without an additional delay. Or at least something like "a beheaded undead or severed undead body part gains blindsight out to 5 feet but cannot otherwise detect creatures", so PCs can run away safely.


I'm not really a fan of massive damage stuff like that. Makes a creature's actual HP seem less important than an esoteric game of rock-paper-scissors. On the other hand, 2d4 does become quaint pretty quickly. How about as per lava? 2d6 damage from exposure, 20d6 for total immersion. Continues to damage for 1d3 rounds after contact, but only for half damage (1d6 for exposure, 10d6 for immersion).

Allows for really tough things to potentially power through (and anything with that much health deserves the chance), but is still extremely effective, especially compared to alternative tactics.

That's good too, but the damage really could use a boost. 2d6 isn't enough to kill even a human commoner zombie - your setting might lose it's low-magic feel if the PCs have to stock up on tens of flasks of holy water for each encounter.

Drakevarg
2018-09-23, 01:42 PM
The average zombie has only 11 hp - so that's still only three rounds for the PCs to bury/incapacitate it. If there's more than one zombie they could easily be impossible to deal with, without an additional delay. Or at least something like "a beheaded undead or severed undead body part gains blindsight out to 5 feet but cannot otherwise detect creatures", so PCs can run away safely.

Zombies are fairly slow (though skeletons aren't, admittedly), so really all you need to run away is a path wide enough to avoid AoOs. I'm not sure how much the blindsight thing would work from an internal consistency standpoint - it's not like most undead even still have eyes.


That's good too, but the damage really could use a boost. 2d6 isn't enough to kill even a human commoner zombie - your setting might lose it's low-magic feel if the PCs have to stock up on tens of flasks of holy water for each encounter.

I was also thinking about working turn undead effects into the holy water somehow. Could even allow for some Divine Feats to apply to clever application. Sacred Vengeance might allow you to anoint your weapon in holy water for 2d6 extra damage against undead for one round, while Sacred Vitality would let you drink a vial for immunity to ability damage/energy drain for one minute.

rferries
2018-09-23, 03:55 PM
Fair enough, and I like the turning->holy water ideas!