Treantmonk's Guide to character building part 2:

[Treantmonk]

Let's make a melee Cleric! (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YMMPp4eHxcA7YXeO8O3BOhsnSZ4iVSMRapjk8aucoSo/edit)

[opticalshadow]

I loved playing your approach to wizards, cant wait to see what is in store for this.

[Laserlight]

Good stuff

[Corran]

I am currently reading through the level 5 strategy of your nature cleric (btw, this is a very interesting read), and I think you have made a mistake. If you use shillelagh with your bonus action, then you can't use a spell (like spirit guardians) in the same turn. It's not enough to use a leveled spell and a cantrip to go around the bonus action casting limitation, you also have to use the cantrip with your action.
From PHB p202: ''A spell cast with a bonus action is especially swift. You must use a bonus action on your turn to cast the spell, provided that you haven’t already taken a bonus action this turn. You can’t cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action.''

Carrying on with reading the rest. I am hoping to see more of such builds/guides in the future.

Edit:
Level 6 strategy, you could add radiant soul and CD to your list of actions.

I like divination. Yet I am a bit freaked out that you are biased against banishment. What's not to like? Targets cha saves and it scales very well. The perfect spell when you are fighting 2-5 (or around that number) brutes, which spirit guardians would take some time to take out.

Just realized you didn't boost your concentration. That might hurt you a lot.

[TWrecks]

These are great and I enjoy following along with your thought process in terms of: spell selection on level ups, feats, and what a round of combat etc looks like.

I’d love to see you do a Lore Bard where the spells known are more restricted and you can change out 1 known spell each level. Also, see you go through combat rounds since there is no short rest spell regen for Lore Bards.

Thanks again for the fun read.

[pygmybatrider]

I am currently reading through the level 5 strategy of your nature cleric (btw, this is a very interesting read), and I think you have made a mistake. If you use shillelagh with your bonus action, then you can't use a spell (like spirit guardians) in the same turn. It's not enough to use a leveled spell and a cantrip to go around the bonus action casting limitation, you also have to use the cantrip with your action.
From PHB p202: ''A spell cast with a bonus action is especially swift. You must use a bonus action on your turn to cast the spell, provided that you haven’t already taken a bonus action this turn. You can’t cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action.''

Carrying on with reading the rest. I am hoping to see more of such builds/guides in the future.

Edit:
Level 6 strategy, you could add radiant soul and CD to your list of actions.

I like divination. Yet I am a bit freaked out that you are biased against banishment. What's not to like? Targets cha saves and it scales very well. The perfect spell when you are fighting 2-5 (or around that number) brutes, which spirit guardians would take some time to take out.

Just realized you didn't boost your concentration. That might hurt you a lot.

I immediately wanted to point out that the bonus action clause is for spells, not cantrips, but it seems that for all intents and purposes a cantrip is a level 0 spell, and would be subject to the same rules. So you could Shillelagh and Thorn Whip or Toll the Dead but not Spirit Guardians.

I can’t exactly pinpoint why, when all rules seem to point otherwise, but that just feels wrong.

[Kadesh]

Thanks for this - would love to see a Monk build from you Treantmonk! I think the God Wizard guide in 3.5 (and the rest of the Weekly CharOP threads on WotC) was what got me ultimately hooked on D&D, being able to build to a theme.

[BoxANT]

Good guide.

One thing, Ceremony (ritual) got nerfed in XGtE, as prior it did not consumed the 25g, but now it does. Still saves you a spell slot but (unfortunately) is not "free" holy water.

My cleric in ToA had been making a nice profit selling holy water to adventures and flaming fists... sigh

[Treantmonk]

One thing, Ceremony (ritual) got nerfed in XGtE, as prior it did not consumed the 25g, but now it does. Still saves you a spell slot but (unfortunately) is not "free" holy water
GAH!
Sigh. Probably still worth it, but I'll note that.


and I think you have made a mistake. If you use shillelagh with your bonus action, then you can't use a spell (like spirit guardians) in the same turn. It's not enough to use a leveled spell and a cantrip to go around the bonus action casting limitation, you also have to use the cantrip with your action.

How have I not ever run into this before? Oh yes, because Wizards don't have bonus action cantrips.

yep, that changes the order of set up for sure. I'll think about it and make some updates.

Good catch, thank you!

[Treantmonk]

These are great and I enjoy following along with your thought process in terms of: spell selection on level ups, feats, and what a round of combat etc looks like.

I’d love to see you do a Lore Bard where the spells known are more restricted and you can change out 1 known spell each level. Also, see you go through combat rounds since there is no short rest spell regen for Lore Bards.

Thanks again for the fun read.

If I do Bard (which I might), I would be inclined to do a Valor Bard over a Lore Bard. I like to buck conventional wisdom, and the conventional wisdom is that Lore Bards are better. I disagree.

[Sudsboy]

This was a fun read, thanks. I skipped cleric in favor of a hexblade in our current game, and this is giving me serious buyer's remorse. Cleric for the next one, for sure.

[Edgerunner]

Love the LvL X LvL Strategy, Spell choices and what you switched out of.
The place where you decided when it was time to MC if you chose.

Most Guides build towards an End Result..... This Highlights the Best way to get there.

[KorvinStarmast]

Strategy: Honestly, unchanged. I will occasionally be treating myself to the satisfying holy kaboom, but most of the time it’s the standard. That 7th level slot...you guessed it, upcast Spirit Guardians on the big fight. Just want to note that we are talking about 7d8 damage per round to all enemies in 15’ for up to 10 rounds. That’s pretty amazing.
If you make your save when you take damage. AC 17 isn't impressive protection at these levels.

[Zanthy1]

The Legend Treatmonk! Huge fan of your wizard stuff, cannot wait for more!

[Mikal]

Love the guide but your heroes feast spell costs 1000 go so kinda hard to cast it each day

[Treantmonk]

If you make your save when you take damage. AC 17 isn't impressive protection at these levels.

No it's not, characters almost certainly have magic protection by this point. I can't really predict what that will be though.

Regardless, the character also has the shield spell. 22 AC before magic items is actually quite good.

[Daghoulish]

I have a question about your cantrip choice. What do you think of Primal Savagery? Scaling d10 acid damage doesn't sound too bad to me. I also think that a Nature Cleric makes a better caster for it than a Druid but that might just be me. So, what do you think of it as a Nature Cleric's druid cantrip?

[Treantmonk]

I have a question about your cantrip choice. What do you think of Primal Savagery? Scaling d10 acid damage doesn't sound too bad to me. I also think that a Nature Cleric makes a better caster for it than a Druid but that might just be me. So, what do you think of it as a Nature Cleric's druid cantrip?

To be honest, I don't think it's a particularly good choice.

Let's compare it to what I have in the current guide:

Level 1:
Primal Savagery: +5 to hit, 1d10 damage (average 5.5)

Shillelagh: +5 to hit, 1d8+3 damage (average 7.5)

OK, let's jump to level 10
Primal Savagery: +9 to hit, 2d10 damage (average 11)

Shillelagh/Booming blade: +9 to hit, 3d8+5 base damage (average 18.5) + possible 2d8 secondary (average 9)

Now let's go all the way to level 20
Primal Savagery: +11 to hit, 4d10 damage (average 22)

Shillelagh/Booming Blade: +11 to hit, 6d8+5 base damage (average 32) + possible 4d8 secondary (average 18)

So we see the to hit is equal but the damage for Shillelagh starts out higher, then continues to gain distance as levels increase.

This comparison also assumes the 20th level Cleric is using a non-magical club as a weapon. Assuming a +1, +2, +3 weapon at appropriate points, then the comparison is even more dramatic.

[R.Shackleford]

Let's make a melee Cleric! (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YMMPp4eHxcA7YXeO8O3BOhsnSZ4iVSMRapjk8aucoSo/edit)

Charger better be an option for your melee cleric or I'll be... Well, I won't be disapointed or anything but I'm hoping more people see the beauty of charger on a cleric.

[Kadesh]

Charger better be an option for your melee cleric or I'll be... Well, I won't be disapointed or anything but I'm hoping more people see the beauty of charger on a cleric.
Why charger and not Polearm Master? An additional attack dealing another 1d4+2d8+str?

[Stygofthedump]

Nice work. I especially like the thematic information you add for flavour. Can’t wait for more of your work.

[Mikal]

Why charger and not Polearm Master? An additional attack dealing another 1d4+2d8+str?

Where are you getting the 2d8? If it’s because of the divine strike ability that’s once per turn only. And it would be wis not str.

Also since the build is using booming blade/gfb that uses the spell action not attack, so you can’t bonus action extra attack.

[Galadhrim]

I loved the build and reading your reasoning behind spell selection. Preparing several rituals is something I do less of than I should on my cleric so that thought process was very valuable to me.

I do wonder if an additional +1 wisdom is worth the cost of war caster for a build that is so dependant on spirit guardians which necessitates being in melee with multiple combatants to be effective. It seems like you will be frustrated a lot by dropping your most powerful spell from failing concentration saves. (Initially you had a paladin with you so that would make it much more tenable, but it seems he plummeted to an early death and is not able to lend you his aura of protection). Once you get in some game play in levels 5-10 I am interested to see if this becomes an issue. Maybe I have been valuing my concentration too highly and it isn't as important as I made it out to be?

[Ovarwa]

Hi,

Going Warlock over Sorcerer can provide some advantages. Cleric9/Tome3 can immediately put all clerical rituals up through level 5 into his tome, freeing up more preparations. Cleric 11/Warlock 9 (or Cl9/W11) can wade into every combat with SG and Armor of Agathys. Warlock spells based on Cha would need to be avoided.

Probably less interesting, because of your analysis that GFB and BB are less interesting at lower levels, is to start with Druid1/Cleric1 (or possibly Cl1/D1) taking Arcana domain. Druid armor restrictions and delaying cleric spells by one level are also detractions. On the other hand, your level 1 is good, your cantrip setup is complete at level 2 and all based on Wisdom, you have room for Thorn Whip, you get spells like goodberry, and you eventually get Wish.

Anyway,

Ken

[Theodoxus]

I've played basically this build on a life cleric. One thing I did differently was going hill dwarf, and starting with a 17 Con. Grabbed Resilient Con at 4th, allowing me to reliably roll in with Spirit Guardians, which is less affected by a lower (16) Wisdom and take hits to the face.

I was incredibly lucky, and the DM rolled up a Tome of Understanding, so by 8th level, I still ended up with a 20 Wis. But even without that, I'd probably go the same route with a Nature build.

Dwarf is nice, letting you wear heavy armor without care to strength requirements. Being 18 Wis, 18 Con by 8th level with Proficiency in Con, Wis and Cha is nothing to sneeze at. You could easily dump strength and dexterity (or keep them at 10, if you hate negatives) and still have a decent Int and Cha for skills and Multiclassing into Sorcerer if desired.

Another thing I got, that I hadn't even considered until it fell in my lap: a Wand of the War Mage. Sadly, it doesn't affect the DCs of spells, unlike the Rod of the Rod Keeper - but it does affect the To Hit on spell attacks. Before I received it, I used Toll the Dead and Spiritual Weapon as my primary go to spells for direct damage. After I obtained it, I switched to Inflict Wounds and Guiding Bolt. I hit reliably with both, never feeling I wasted the spell, and both hit like a ton of bricks.

And thanks to the versatility of the cleric spell list, I only had to wait until the next long rest - not 1 spell at a time a level at a time to completely change the way the character played.

[Merudo]

Metamagic: The reason to take Sorcerer for 19th and 20th is for this. I only have 3 sorcery points, so I will be deliberately taking options that are cheap to use.

You can use Fonts of Magic to get more sorcery points and fuel more expensive metamagic.

I'd consider Twined Spell metamagic, to do fun stuff like twinning Booming Blade, Sanctuary, Healing Word, Guiding Bolt, Protection from Good/Evil, Revivify, etc.

[TWrecks]

If I do Bard (which I might), I would be inclined to do a Valor Bard over a Lore Bard. I like to buck conventional wisdom, and the conventional wisdom is that Lore Bards are better. I disagree.

😮 I’m curious as to what your thought process is on that. I’m going to go peruse the subclass not to refresh my memory.

[Merudo]

If I do Bard (which I might), I would be inclined to do a Valor Bard over a Lore Bard. I like to buck conventional wisdom, and the conventional wisdom is that Lore Bards are better. I disagree.


😮 I’m curious as to what your thought process is on that. I’m going to go peruse the subclass not to refresh my memory.

I don't know Treantmonk's views, but I can tell you my own.

People undervalue the Valor Bard proficiencies (armor and shield can improve AC by 3-5 points, and even more if magical loot is found), and overvalue the 3 extra skill proficiencies of the Lore Bard (Jack of all Trades gives half the bonus already, plus a Bard can grab most of the worthwhile skill proficiencies anyway).

Cutting Words is sort of a trap: Bardic Inspiration is best used by giving dice to others. Inspiration dice from Valor Bards can be used for a saving throws bonus, an ability check bonus, a to-hit bonus, a damage bonus, a damage reduction bonus, as well as an AC bonus, while Cutting Words uses are limited to a to-hit penalty and ability check penalty, and can only be used once a turn.

The Valor Bard's Extra Attack is also very helpful against creatures with high WIS save and/or Multiattack, as Vicious Mockery is nearly useless against those enemies. Honestly, any Bard is going to shine against low WIS enemies, so you might as well prepare for high WIS ones. I mean, quite a lot of Lore Bards blow their magical secret on Eldritch Blast when they could go Valor Bard and do superior damage through Extra Attack.

Finally, Magical Secrets at level 6 are neat as hell, but the Bard's spell list is amazing already. Still, Magical Secrets are so fun to use, and some spells are so broken, that I think they make the Lore Bard superior to the Valor Bard.

I'm really curious about Treantmonk's views on the subject, though.

[R.Shackleford]

Why charger and not Polearm Master? An additional attack dealing another 1d4+2d8+str?

Oh, I don't care about the damage. The cleric's damage output, without feats, is fine against the enemies one would expect to go up against. Polearm

But charger gives you the gift of options. Need to get an enemy away from allies? 10' buffer just got created and your ally (PC or NPC) won't need to disengage to get away. Need to get to an ally and stop a grapple condition? Dash + Shove the enemy. If you want to deal damage with it, Cleric is about the only melee class that doesn't get Extra Attack and so they don't lose out from that Bonus Action attack.

I would pair it up with Sentinel. You dash in, push a creature 10' away from an ally or into a favorable position, then move 10' closer so you're adjacent to the enemy (you don't have to stop your movement) and now you just seperated the target and locked them down. What's more is that they're locked down against a PC that can heal themselves, has a good melee option, and can catch up if they decide to dash away (which them running away just hurts them more).

Plus, Charger is absolutely fun to play. No one expects a Cleric to play ping pong. Charger + Sentinel is straight up evil on a Cleric.

[Kadesh]

Actually that has completely sold it for me, as I forgot the Divine Strike was 1/turn only (although the BA attack for the additional chance to trigger is interesting)

[Treantmonk]

😮 I’m curious as to what your thought process is on that. I’m going to go peruse the subclass not to refresh my memory.

I would love to explain (and I'm leaning towards Valor Bard for part 3 so I can be more long-winded about it).

The Lore bard reads better than the Valor Bard. At first reading, I figured the Lore Bard was the "caster" bard, and the Valor Bard was the "weapon" bard. However, in actual play I notice that it doesn't really work out that way.

The reality is that Bards have a significant defensive weakness. Light armor + a lack of defensive spells means a bad AC. Since you are raising Cha over Dex, it doesn't improve. Eventually you can get spells like Greater Invisibility, but since all the best control spells in the Bard's spell list require concentration, you can't even really do that.

So what ends up happening is that the Bard gets hit, a lot. Now the HP aren't bad, and there are ways to gain temps, so it's not a huge "falling down dead" problem, but it becomes a big "rolling concentration saves over and over" problem. Again, the Bard spell list is unusually heavy on concentration spells (more so than any other primary caster), so that is a big problem.

The way a Lore Bard is set up to handle this problem is Cutting Words. However, firstly, cutting words is unreliable (the problem with a die roll, is no matter what the average roll is, you sometimes roll lousy). The second, and bigger problem, is it can be used only once per round. Attacks are like waves, they tend to come all at once. When that beast attacks someone else, you take zero attacks, when it attacks you, you take 3 attacks.

So the way a Lore Bard ACTUALLY deals with this deficiency is with Magical Secrets. Usually a Shield Spell, though there are some other possibilities (that are generally inferior). So now when the Lore Bard is attacked (Let's say a Dex 14 with Studded Leather), they can increase that 14 AC to 19 for a round at the cost of one spell slot.

Or you could play a Valor Bard and get half-plate and shield. Then the same Bard has AC 19 without casting a spell or using their reactions. This means (#1) they get hit less, which in turn means (#2) their concentration goes down less.

Now some will argue that the Valor Bard has less spell selection because of not getting Magical Secrets at level 6. However, note that one of those selections (at least) is being used just to match what a Valor Bard brings without casting a spell. So you get one more. This would be a bigger deal if the Bard Spell List wasn't already really good. The other question we need to ask is what makes the better spellcaster, more slots or more spells? Because assuming the Lore Bard is casting Shield, they aren't casting it for free. Those are Healing Words, and Tasha's Hideous Laughters that the Valor Bard gets to cast and the Lore Bard doesn't.

Then let's discuss inspiration. Combat inspiration is demonstrably better than standard Bard inspiration (assuming the Lore Bard is using his inspiration that way rather than cutting words). Now inspired allies can boost AC or damage which adds some nice versatility.

Here's what I would say the biggest problem with the Valor Bard is: The 6th level ability gives you Extra Attack, and it is VERY easy to fall into the trap that this makes the Valor Bard a gish (a fighter/mage cross). It does not. Bard spells and abilities do not favor weapon combat. If you want to shoot a bow twice a round when you have nothing to cast because you don't have an attack cantrip, then that's about as much good as Extra Attack does you. Don't get me started on the "optimizers" who think Valor Bards make great archers because of Swift Quiver at level 10. That's a terrible archery build.

TL/DR: So Valor Bards are casters primarily, just like any other bards, not some warrior-hybrid. Armor however shores up such a significant weakness in the class that it makes the archtype the best choice for a caster-bard IMO.

[Daghoulish]

-snip-

That all sounds really interesting (I was planing out a kenku valor bard and this is great info) but I was wondering what you thought of Battle Magic. I know it comes in at 14 where most campaigns end, however ours usually go to 20 so I was wondering your thoughts on it. At that point the bard could do BB/GFB and then attack like a Eldritch Knight or cast fireball/heat metal/ect and then make a longbow shot.

[Treantmonk]

That all sounds really interesting (I was planing out a kenku valor bard and this is great info) but I was wondering what you thought of Battle Magic. I know it comes in at 14 where most campaigns end, however ours usually go to 20 so I was wondering your thoughts on it. At that point the bard could do BB/GFB and then attack like a Eldritch Knight or cast fireball/heat metal/ect and then make a longbow shot.

Yes, as you say, because of the level gained, I tend to give it less consideration. Overall, in most cases, it's kind of...OK.

I mean, BB+one weapon attack is not impressive at 14th level. Really, much at all. You mention that Eldritch Knights can do the same, which is true, but they can do it at level 7, when that combo is much more impressive.

Fireball+an unenhanced arrow at level 14 of course is much worse. Please don't take fireball with your valuable 10th level magical secrets. Promise me you won't.

Honestly though, adding an arrow to a spell attack is fine, but it's likely not the best thing you can do with a bonus action. Bonus actions are for attacking with animated objects, or using inspiration. A single arrow, probably +8 or +9 to hit, doing 1d8+3 or +4 is not really significant at all at level 14.

[Dudu]

Hi, Treantmonk.

I've been reading your handbooks ever since 3.5 God Wizard stuff and has been a big fan so far.

Now I'm reading your cleric guide and, after years playing with 5.0, I agree with almost everything. Spell selections, strong domains, cleric role on the party.

One thing that I disagree and I think you should take a look are the ASI. I wouldn't be so sure about bumping WIS asap. It's definitely good, I'm just not sure if it's the best action.

One thing that happened a lot in my first sessions as cleric, is getting targeted and losing crucial spells, such as bless and spiritual guardians, to damage. I'm going ahead and say cleric is sufficiently stuffed with solid, bread and butter concentration spells, that an investment in concentration might be more important than bumping wisdom.

Resilient Con and Warcaster were feats you considered only at lvl 12 (13, since you dipped). I'd take one of them as soon as lvl 4 hits. Resilient Con is gorgeous if it also makes your Con even in the process. Warcaster is, like you noticed, great with stuff like booming blade.

Having 2 Wis less is a bummer, but a fair trade. One less spell prepared (that hurts, since clerics have good situational spells), lower DC and lower other relevant stuff. But keeping your key spells on is paramount, at least in my playstyle. I wouldn't bother with other stat bumps such as Con or Str. For me, it's Wis bumps and feats, I just disagree with you about the order in which you buy them.

Oh, and I'm not sure if you mentioned, but clerics are great to multiclass. You dipped in sorcerer, I dipped in wizard with similar benefits (A death cleric/diviner wizard).

Why? Because cleric is: 1 - frontloaded, 2 - with spells that scale really well, such as Spiritual Guardians, 3 - missing some very interesting options from other casters, 4 - keep your full spellslot progression.

A dip in wizard can get you: the Shield spell (for a melee cleric!), Find Familiar, Booming Blade, a Spellbook to cast unprepared rituals from and some other features (for my diviner, I also got portent). The ammount of goodies is out of the chart.


A dip in druid can get good stuff, such as Shillelagh, but the fact you shouldn't wear metal armor makes that dip worse than, say, just being a Nature cleric or even Magic Initiate.

I wouldn't multiclass before hitting lvl 5 though.

One last thing. Dodge.
To many, Dodge looks like a waste of action just to lower the chance of getting hit.
For me, there were situations where dodge was the best action to take. The reason being: you can do a lot of good stuff with bonus actions alone. Namely, Spiritual Weapon and Healing Word (even mass healing word).
Figthing against hordes, my DM noticed how annoying it was to deal with my character. Heightned Spiritual Guadians not only did hefty damage, but also slowed the foes.
Spiritual Weapon was doing it's part, and if a friend got knocked, Healing Word required a bonus action only. Meanwhile, it was hard to hit my cleric, and even when it landed, borderline impossible to get rid of Spiritual Guardians. The damage SG was doing alone was so big that using an action to attack was just a small addiction. It's an action usually oversighted, but really worth it for a cleric.

[Merudo]

I agree that a concentration buff should be taken before level 13 - especially on a melee built!

Plus, multiclassing Wizard instead of Sorcerer seems so much better, especially since you don't seem to know what to do with the metamagics. Portent + Rituals + Find Familiar + Vastly larger spell list, yes please!

[Treantmonk]

I agree that a concentration buff should be taken before level 13 - especially on a melee built!

Plus, multiclassing Wizard instead of Sorcerer seems so much better, especially since you don't seem to know what to do with the metamagics. Portent + Rituals + Find Familiar + Vastly larger spell list, yes please!

Nobody loves Wizards more than me, but adjusting this character to qualify for a Wizard multiclass would not be painless. Sorcerer is an easy fit and it's really only a 1 level dip for the purpose of accessing shield and booming blade until level 19.

My reasoning for taking Wisdom over Warmage or Resilient Con is that with the 3 faceted attack strategy (Melee attack + Spiritual Weapon attack + Spirit Guardians), only one of those is concentration based, but wisdom impacts all 3 (significantly). I should note that both Shield (by way of preventing damage) and Favor of the Gods (by way of improving the saving throw) could also assist with maintaining concentration pre level 13.

We should also consider that neither Warcaster nor Resilient (con) provide 100% assurance of making concentration saves. At level 4, the build (as is) will have a 60% chance of making the most common concentration saving throw (DC 10). With the Warcaster feat that would be 84%. With Resilient that would be 80% (jumping to 85% at level 5). Those boosts are significant but are not high enough to be comfortable with a concentration save.

Ultimately, the main judge here will be actual play. I will be testing this build as the campaign I'm using it for has begun. If after level 4 I regret increasing Wisdom over taking the Warcaster feat, I may not be able to change it in my campaign, but I certainly can in the guide, either way I intend to post a prologue afterwards discussing my experience with the build.

[KorvinStarmast]

My reasoning for taking Wisdom over Warmage or Resilient Con is that with the 3 faceted attack strategy (Melee attack + Spiritual Weapon attack + Spirit Guardians), only one of those is concentration based, but wisdom impacts all 3 (significantly). I should note that both Shield (by way of preventing damage) and Favor of the Gods (by way of improving the saving throw) could also assist with maintaining concentration pre level 13.

We should also consider that neither Warcaster nor Resilient (con) provide 100% assurance of making concentration saves. At level 4, the build (as is) will have a 60% chance of making the most common concentration saving throw (DC 10). With the Warcaster feat that would be 84%. With Resilient that would be 80% (jumping to 85% at level 5). Those boosts are significant but are not high enough to be comfortable with a concentration save.

Ultimately, the main judge here will be actual play. I will be testing this build as the campaign I'm using it for has begun. If after level 4 I regret increasing Wisdom over taking the Warcaster feat, I may not be able to change it in my campaign, but I certainly can in the guide, either way I intend to post a prologue afterwards discussing my experience with the build. In my experience with a Tempest cleric: buffing wisdom to 18 at 4 was necessary; low spell save DC's make for a lot of unhappy results. Getting the Conc boost at 8 was a major benefit to our party with (Warcaster) me keeping concentration up. (or Hold Person) up. Even with a +1 shield and decent AC, I got hit with some frequency and so had to make concentration checks. YMMV.

My current life cleric went magic initiate and shillelagh. Can't say enough about how well that's worked out, but she's not progressed very far yet.

[Merudo]

I should note that both Shield (by way of preventing damage) and Favor of the Gods (by way of improving the saving throw) could also assist with maintaining concentration pre level 13.


Shield is a VS spell, so by RAW you need a free hand to cast it. This means you have to preemptively stow your weapon at the end of your turn to be able to use it.

Stowing your weapon cancels out Shillelagh, which ruins your action economy.

I seriously can't imagine this build working without War Caster.

Good point on Favor of the Gods, though. The ability is so good, I'm surprised Divine Soul 1 is not a more frequent dip.



My reasoning for taking Wisdom over Warmage or Resilient Con is that with the 3 faceted attack strategy (Melee attack + Spiritual Weapon attack + Spirit Guardians), only one of those is concentration based, but wisdom impacts all 3 (significantly)


Spirit Guardians will do most of the damage, though.

With two enemies Spirit Guardians will do about 27 damage if the ability is not resisted, and 13.5 if it is. Spiritual Weapon & Melee will each do about 8.5 on a hit & 0 on a miss. So even though Spirit Guardians is only 1/3 of your strategy, it will often account for 60%+ of your damage.

The damage from Melee does get higher once you get Divine Strike & Booming Blade, but together both give +2d8 damage at level 8. Meanwhile an upcasted Spirit Guardians will do an extra 1d8 to every enemy in range.

[Specter]

A riveting read, thanks.

Also notice that even without Warcaster you can cast with both hands full as a cleric, since you can use your shield as a spellcasting focus.

[TWrecks]

Interesting thoughts on Bards. I’m currently playing Lore and have definitely noticed the things that were talked about in regards to AC, glut of concentration spells, and cutting words.

The extra skills usefulness is largely game dependent. In terms of AC the way I’ve thus far adapted is to stay in back, use cover and illusions. Warcaster and res con will most likely be in the characters future. In regards to glut of concentration spells magical secrets should be used to give you things to do outside of concentration. Counter spell, fireball, and misty / thunderstep. Obviously the best things to be concentrating on are things like Faerie Fire or Hypnotic Pattern etc. I personally think using secrets to pickup stuff like EBlast is counter productive - it’s not a DPR class but an impact class. Look to make a big battlefield swing with your concentration or utility that allows your party to win the fight.

Thanks for the comprehensive breakdown.

[Treantmonk]

Interesting thoughts on Bards. I’m currently playing Lore and have definitely noticed the things that were talked about in regards to AC, glut of concentration spells, and cutting words.

The extra skills usefulness is largely game dependent. In terms of AC the way I’ve thus far adapted is to stay in back, use cover and illusions. Warcaster and res con will most likely be in the characters future. In regards to glut of concentration spells magical secrets should be used to give you things to do outside of combat. Counter spell, fireball, and misty / thunderstep. Obviously the best things to be concentrating on are things like Faerie Fire or Hypnotic Pattern etc. I personally think using secrets to pickup stuff like EBlast is counter productive - it’s not a DPR class but an impact class. Look to make a big battlefield swing with your concentration or utility that allows your party to win the fight.

Thanks for the comprehensive breakdown.

The extra skills I find are not as shiny as they sound, because you already have JoaT, which means you are only really improving by 1/2 your proficiency bonus.

Thunderstep doesn't really draw me with Magical Secrets. After all, Dimension Door is on the Bard spell list and is going to provide a comparable service. Counterspell is absolutely a great pick of course. Picking up a cantrip attack is an awful choice. EB (just like all damage cantrips) does not do good damage if you can't enhance it. If I'm playing a caster with damage cantrips on the list I will take them of course, but just to do something when I have nothing more impressive to do. Using magical secrets on one though is another matter.

I can absolutely see the value of Fireball as a level 6 pick, though it just wouldn't make the top 2 for me.

[Treantmonk]

Shield is a VS spell, so by RAW you need a free hand to cast it. This means you have to preemptively stow your weapon at the end of your turn to be able to use it.

Stowing your weapon cancels out Shillelagh, which ruins your action economy.
I hadn't noticed the "if you let go of the weapon" portion of the spell. Good catch, that's something I need to think about. Giving up the physical shield seems like an overwhelming cost here.

There's a bigger question. Shillelagh also has a somatic component. Does that mean you can't cast Shillelagh if you are holding the club and a shield? Something I never thought of before.


I seriously can't imagine this build working without War Caster.
Yes, if I can't think of a workaround, you may be right. I will give this thought over the weekend.


Spirit Guardians will do most of the damage, though.
As you point out, this will largely depend on whether there are multiple targets

[Specter]

I hadn't noticed the "if you let go of the weapon" portion of the spell. Good catch, that's something I need to think about. Giving up the physical shield seems like an overwhelming cost here.

There's a bigger question. Shillelagh also has a somatic component. Does that mean you can't cast Shillelagh if you are holding the club and a shield? Something I never thought of before.


Yes, if I can't think of a workaround, you may be right. I will give this thought over the weekend.


As you point out, this will largely depend on whether there are multiple targets

Notice that Clerics can use their shield as a spellcasting focus, which means they can have the club and the shield and still use somatic components.

[Merudo]

There's a bigger question. Shillelagh also has a somatic component. Does that mean you can't cast Shillelagh if you are holding the club and a shield? Something I never thought of before.


No, because the staff/club is part of the material component.

"A spellcaster must have a hand free to access a spell’s material components—or to hold a Spellcasting focus—but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic Components."


Notice that Clerics can use their shield as a spellcasting focus, which means they can have the club and the shield and still use somatic components.

Only true for spells with a material component. For VS spells, the Cleric needs War Caster or a free hand.

Read the following passage from Jeremy Crawford:



Another example: a cleric’s holy symbol is emblazoned on her shield. She likes to wade into melee combat with a mace in one hand and a shield in the other. She uses the holy symbol as her spellcasting focus, so she needs to have the shield in hand when she casts a cleric spell that has a material component. If the spell, such as aid, also has a somatic component, she can perform that component with the shield hand and keep holding the mace in the other.

If the same cleric casts cure wounds, she needs to put the mace or the shield away, because that spell doesn’t have a material component but does have a somatic component. She’s going to need a free hand to make the spell’s gestures. If she had the War Caster feat, she could ignore this restriction.

[Treantmonk]

Notice that Clerics can use their shield as a spellcasting focus, which means they can have the club and the shield and still use somatic components.

A spellcasting focus can be used as the Material component of a spell, not the Somatic component.

[Treantmonk]

No, because the staff/club is part of the material component.

"A spellcaster must have a hand free to access a spell’s material components—or to hold a Spellcasting focus—but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic Components."

Ah, this is from the Errata. I should learn to use Beyond rather than my PHB.

Now the question is, if a Cleric has a Shield Emblem as a Spellcasting Focus, does that mean they can use the hand they use to hold the shield for somatic components? Has this been answered?

[Merudo]

Now the question is, if a Cleric has a Shield Emblem as a Spellcasting Focus, does that mean they can use the hand they use to hold the shield for somatic components? Has this been answered?

They can, but only for spells with material components. So Aid is fine, but Cure Wounds isn't.

[KorvinStarmast]

Ah, this is from the Errata. I should learn to use Beyond rather than my PHB.

Now the question is, if a Cleric has a Shield Emblem as a Spellcasting Focus, does that mean they can use the hand they use to hold the shield for somatic components? Has this been answered?
Be careful about Beyond. It has some holes as well. Check the errata, for sure.

[Dudu]

Yes, if I can't think of a workaround, you may be right. I will give this thought over the weekend.
So, warcasters gives 3 benefits, and they are all significant. I'm with Merudo here in the "Warcaster team". The feat is simply too good. Losing +2 Wis early on is by no mean a small price, but it's worth it. Of all my sessions playing clerics (Tempest, Arcana and Death, in this order) warcaster made a huge difference. In my very first cleric, allowing sword and board casting was the main reason I even picked the feat to begin with.



As you point out, this will largely depend on whether there are multiple targets
I don't bother casting Spirit Guardians without a healthy number of other targets (more than three, for example). Let's not forget clerics have a lot of solid options in concentration (bless and banish come to my mind).

And personally, I think cleric's weapon damage is lacking. A common mistake I see in cleric builds is people investing heavily on their weapons. You attack only once per turn, even War cleric still essentially attack once per turn. Spiritual Weapon is neat use of your bonus actions, significant addition to DPR, but not impressive. You're probably better blessing your GWM fighter as well as two other friends with a lvl 1 spell.

[Treantmonk]

So, warcasters gives 3 benefits, and they are all significant. I'm with Merudo here in the "Warcaster team". The feat is simply too good. Losing +2 Wis early on is by no mean a small price, but it's worth it. Of all my sessions playing clerics (Tempest, Arcana and Death, in this order) warcaster made a huge difference. In my very first cleric, allowing sword and board casting was the main reason I even picked the feat to begin with.

I'm leaning that direction. Going to give it a day or two to consider. Changing the guide from level 4-13 will be at least a couple hours work, want to make sure I'm comfortable with the switch before I do it.

Edit: DUH! I forgot to say THANK YOU for the feedback. This is why I post this stuff, is to have people like you share ideas and thoughts with me. It's really appreciated.

[BartonBlackburn]

Hi Treantmonk! I'm a big fan of your work man. How would you do level the cleric-paly multiclass you suggest in the guide?
I'm considering

Paladin 1
Cleric 5
Paladin 3 (for the Ancients Oath, goes like bread and butter for a nature cleric)
Cleric X

I'm would be starting paladin for the heavy armor and martial weapons, especially considering that I will start with a decent strength that will save me from shillelag. But I'm not sure if it's too taxing to have 3 levels in Paladin just for the smithe and oath, although tematically it's a great build.

[Treantmonk]

Hi Treantmonk! I'm a big fan of your work man. How would you do level the cleric-paly multiclass you suggest in the guide?
I'm considering

Paladin 1
Cleric 5
Paladin 3 (for the Ancients Oath, goes like bread and butter for a nature cleric)
Cleric X

I'm would be starting paladin for the heavy armor and martial weapons, especially considering that I will start with a decent strength that will save me from shillelag. But I'm not sure if it's too taxing to have 3 levels in Paladin just for the smithe and oath, although tematically it's a great build.

There are a few things to consider:
1) Can you get around the MAD? Normally, something like Hexblade 1/Paladin2/Divine Soul would allow you to focus on Cha, but it would make it much less "nature-y" However, Cleric/Paladin, though seeming obvious, are not a great combo because of MAD. Maybe just 2 paladin for smite wouldn't be a problem, but additional levels bring powers that will be based off Cha.
2) Are you willing to give up primary spellcasting? You won't just have less slots, your spells will be lower level. This build is going to feel much more like a Paladin than a Cleric in combat - far more focused on melee attacks and smiting
3) If the answer to 1 and 2 is yes, I would not see the point of a 1 level Paladin dip at first. Maybe 2 to set up smite? One level of Paladin isn't really doing much for you. Maybe you were thinking Paladin's get Con saves? (They get wis/cha)

If the nature-theme is not important to you, from a pure Charop perspective, I would recommend Hexblade 1/Paladin 2 or 6/Divine Soul X for a melee build with a heavier divine magic feel.

[BartonBlackburn]

There are a few things to consider:
1) Can you get around the MAD? Normally, something like Hexblade 1/Paladin2/Divine Soul would allow you to focus on Cha, but it would make it much less "nature-y" However, Cleric/Paladin, though seeming obvious, are not a great combo because of MAD. Maybe just 2 paladin for smite wouldn't be a problem, but additional levels bring powers that will be based off Cha.
2) Are you willing to give up primary spellcasting? You won't just have less slots, your spells will be lower level. This build is going to feel much more like a Paladin than a Cleric in combat - far more focused on melee attacks and smiting


I can get around the MAD, as never in my life I've been so lucky with the rolls (with 3 16's and average for the others). I was considering half-elf for the CHA boost. So after the racial bonuses and racial feat, I can start with maxed WIS and CHA and a above average STR.

Your seccond point raises me a few doubts. Why would I ve giving up primary spellcasting? I understand that I will lose the last level spells and a ASI but I'm afraid I'm not getting the idea about giving up primary spellcasting with 2 or 3 paladin levels.

The nature theme is quite important. I try to envision the character and the theme I want to play and then optimize the best I can with that in mind so no hexblade/divine soul, but I totally see your point about that build.

[Specter]

I can get around the MAD, as never in my life I've been so lucky with the rolls (with 3 16's and average for the others). I was considering half-elf for the CHA boost. So after the racial bonuses and racial feat, I can start with maxed WIS and CHA and a above average STR.

Your seccond point raises me a few doubts. Why would I ve giving up primary spellcasting? I understand that I will lose the last level spells and a ASI but I'm afraid I'm not getting the idea about giving up primary spellcasting with 2 or 3 paladin levels.

The nature theme is quite important. I try to envision the character and the theme I want to play and then optimize the best I can with that in mind so no hexblade/divine soul, but I totally see your point about that build.

What will happen is that 3 levels of Paladin will give you only 1st-level spells, whereas 3 Cleric levels would give you 2nd-level spells. A Cleric 10/Paladin 3 would have 5th-level spells, and a Cleric 13 would have 7th-levels. Etc.

What I would suggest is simply taking Paladin 2 for a fighting style and smiting (CHA can be left at 13, no problem). The problem is that the first level of Paladin is absolutely horrible, so this build works better if you're starting at later levels.

[BartonBlackburn]

What will happen is that 3 levels of Paladin will give you only 1st-level spells, whereas 3 Cleric levels would give you 2nd-level spells. A Cleric 10/Paladin 3 would have 5th-level spells, and a Cleric 13 would have 7th-levels. Etc.

What I would suggest is simply taking Paladin 2 for a fighting style and smiting (CHA can be left at 13, no problem). The problem is that the first level of Paladin is absolutely horrible, so this build works better if you're starting at later levels.

Fair points, Specter. Indeed Paladin 1 sucks.
Paladin 2 for smithing and fighting style is not bad considering I can improve the damage with higher spell slots if lacking a better idea.

[Zalabim]

Just a roundup of my notes as I read through the guide.

Shillelagh stuff: Merudo covered the basic principle of it. It effects the weapon you're holding, so you can't just cast it without drawing it, and it ends if you let go. This makes casting with Shill and Shield highly awkward. Some of the spells this offends are Guidance and Spiritual Weapon.

Magic Circle: It takes a minute to cast and doesn't move. Do you really find yourself using this in the jungle? It seems like a special purpose spell. Also pretty sure it's 100GP of (holy water/powdered metals), but commas are hard.

Plant Growth: Situational, yes, but take a closer look at it. It's fair range, huge radius, instantaneous/no concentration. Because you can exclude areas from the effect, you can basically turn a 100' radius area into an instant hedge maze. Great for ranged superiority or just taking total control over the lines of an open battlefield.

Spirit Guardians: 10 minutes, not 10 rounds. It might as well be corrected. Under level 13 you say up to 10 rounds.

Divine Strike: Weapon attack not melee only. Not important to a melee cleric, but worth knowing for the future.

Insect Plague: Definitely situational. It has a good 300' range, similar damage per turn to Guardians, but does damage on cast, on entry, and at end of turn. I think that last part is worth explicitly mentioning.

Factoring critical hits: If all the damage you're considering gets doubled on a critical hit, you can just add .05 to your hit factor. Sure, you hit 60% of the time, but you deal 65% of your average damage on an attack, because one of those 5% increments is double value. If not, you can add .05 times the amount of extra damage you do deal on a critical hit.

Level 10 gets you MF miracle Divine Intervention. I know you'll still get it anyway, and you do talk about using it anyway. You can try it after you cast a bonus action spell. You can try it in downtime. Just try it every day.

Feather Fall: Even when you have wings? No. Especially when you have wings.

Warcaster: Already under consideration. It's also necessary if you want to cast shield while using a weapon and shield.


Hi,

Going Warlock over Sorcerer can provide some advantages. Cleric9/Tome3 can immediately put all clerical rituals up through level 5 into his tome, freeing up more preparations. Cleric 11/Warlock 9 (or Cl9/W11) can wade into every combat with SG and Armor of Agathys. Warlock spells based on Cha would need to be avoided.
I didn't see this addressed, but the warlock tome's ability to use rituals is still limited to half-warlock-level rounded up.

Shield is a VS spell, so by RAW you need a free hand to cast it. This means you have to preemptively stow your weapon at the end of your turn to be able to use it.

Stowing your weapon cancels out Shillelagh, which ruins your action economy.

I seriously can't imagine this build working without War Caster.

Good point on Favor of the Gods, though. The ability is so good, I'm surprised Divine Soul 1 is not a more frequent dip.
I wanted to point this out too, but made sure someone hadn't already said it, and Merudo beat me to it. Shillelagh is a highly inconvenient spell. There's two ways to look at it. You use a shield and War Caster lets you use shillelagh, or you use shillelagh and War Caster lets you use a shield.