when is the best time to dip my eldritch knight into a single level of wizard?

[dehro]

my 4th level eldritch knight has a hankering for a few more cantrips and 1st level spells that he wouldn't have access to and, more importantly, I really want to try my hand at ritual casting. I could do both things with feats, but want to reserve those for martial purposes.
Since I don't think we'll ever reach 20th level (we're playing through hoard of the dragon queen and will follow it up by the rise of Tiamat, which I believe to get up to 15th level), I'm thinking that I shouldn't worry about losing access to the third fighter attack I'd get at the 20th level.... so.. one level dip seems the right way to go, and it's thematically acceptable for my character.
The question is, when should I do that? is there break point that's more auspicious than others?

on a separate note, does anyone know if there's a sequel adventure in the works to finish up the progression after rise of Tiamat?

[sophontteks]

my 4th level eldritch knight has a hankering for a few more cantrips and 1st level spells that he wouldn't have access to and, more importantly, I really want to try my hand at ritual casting. I could do both things with feats, but want to reserve those for martial purposes.
Since I don't think we'll ever reach 20th level (we're playing through hoard of the dragon queen and will follow it up by the rise of Tiamat, which I believe to get up to 15th level), I'm thinking that I shouldn't worry about losing access to the third fighter attack I'd get at the 20th level.... so.. one level dip seems the right way to go, and it's thematically acceptable for my character.
The question is, when should I do that? is there break point that's more auspicious than others?

on a separate note, does anyone know if there's a sequel adventure in the works to finish up the progression after rise of Tiamat?
Its tough, a lot of the real good stuff for the EK comes online later.

Warmagic at level 7 lets you both attack and use a cantrip, but the big cheese is Eldritch strike at 10 which gives enemy creatures disadvantage vs. your magic after you hit them with a weapon attack.
As strong as those 2 things are, I wouldn't want to delay them by a single level. They not only make up for your lower spell DCs, they can make your DCs even surpass casters.

[dehro]

true... then again, my spells are mostly utilitarian... so far I've got dancing light, blade ward, shield, magic missile, disguise self, protection from evil and good... not much offensive power, and the same is true for the rituals I'd be getting, or the few more spells.
So far I don't know that I would gain a great deal from those two abilities.. but it's also likely to change as my EK spell selection increases

[sophontteks]

true... then again, my spells are mostly utilitarian... so far I've got dancing light, blade ward, shield, magic missile, disguise self, protection from evil and good... not much offensive power, and the same is true for the rituals I'd be getting, or the few more spells.
So far I don't know that I would gain a great deal from those two abilities.. but it's also likely to change as my EK spell selection increases
Hmmmm. I hate to break it to you, but...
"You know three 1st level wizard spells of your choice, two must come from the evocation and abjuration spell schools. The third spell can be from any Wizard school of magic. "
You should only have one non-evocation spell at level 4, and you have 3.

[Vorpalchicken]

Cantrips don't count with that restriction.

[sophontteks]

Oh no, my bad, abjuration too. Sorry about that. That was really stupid of me. :smalleek:
Anyway, you will have more powerful spells as you level up. Maybe try scheming what spells you'll be getting as you level to see if it'll be worth it.

[thoroughlyS]

Absolutely take Fighter to 7th level for War Magic. It is perhaps the best ability you get as a gish. After that, I recommend taking at least two levels of Wizard so that you can choose a school. Three levels is also worth considering if only for the fact that Arcane Recovery bumps up to two levels.

Note: Going from Fighter 7 to Fighter 7/Wizard 1 doesn't increase your spell slots. This is because taking Wizard 1 means you have to follow the multiclassing rules for determining spell slots, using 1/3 of your Fighter levels rounded down (instead of rounding up like straight Eldritch Knight does).

[dehro]

Note: Going from Fighter 7 to Fighter 7/Wizard 1 doesn't increase your spell slots. This is because taking Wizard 1 means you have to follow the multiclassing rules for determining spell slots, using 1/3 of your Fighter levels rounded down (instead of rounding up like straight Eldritch Knight does).

I see.. then again, it's more an issue of having different spells available, rather than augmenting the spell slots.
I'm really mostly interested into the ritual caster thing..and aim to remain primarily a melee character.. so I'm a bit wary of sinking 3 levels of wizard in the build.... I've got sentinel, next will be polearm mastery and great weapon mastery... so, really, I'm not sure which direction I'll go in spell-wise.
(incidentally, we're limited to core books)

[Tanarii]

Given you took Dancing Lights and Blade Ward as your cantrips, the answer is probably at level 6.

You want Extra Attack first. So fighter 5.

But War Magic doesn't do you much good without a solid damage cantrip to rotate with, although it is nice for the occasional need to tank with Blade Ward. So no need to push to get that before the Wizard level gives you three new cantrips. You really want one of Shocking Grasp, Acid Splash, or Poison Spray for the attack rotation. (Or the SCAG cantrips if those are available.)

I'm assuming here you're not a ranged EK. If you are, cantrip options for War Magic open up to ranged attack roll cantrips.

Edit: never mind. If you're making a PAM/Sentinel/GWM character, you probably won't use War Magic very often at all. It's effectively a ribbon feature for you. Did you also dump Int? If so, that limits you to defensive and utility spells, so it's important info to provide.

If you dumped Int and are a PAM/Sentinel/GWM build the answer is any time after you get Extra Attack. Not because you need attack cantrips, but because you've devalued the most important EK features anyway. So take the wizard level whenever you want to get more utility.

[dehro]

Did you also dump Int? If so, that limits you to defensive and utility spells, so it's important info to provide.

If you dumped Int and are a PAM/Sentinel/GWM build the answer is any time after you get Extra Attack. Not because you need attack cantrips, but because you've devalued the most important EK features anyway. So take the wizard level whenever you want to get more utility.

Funnily enough I did "dump" INT, but it's still a 13, because I rolled really well.

edit: not true, I'm a dunce.. my dump stat is CHA... at 12..

[Tanarii]

Funnily enough I did "dump" INT, but it's still a 13, because I rolled really well.

edit: not true, I'm a dunce.. my dump stat is CHA... at 12..
Haha yeah "dump" is something of a misnomer when it comes to attack stats.

In that case it really comes down to which you want first:
- The level 6 Fighter feat
vs
- added utility of 3 new non-attack cantrips + 6 new (probably heavily Ritual) spells in a spellbooks + 2 new level 1 prepared spells (1 from Wiz level and 1 from Int mod).

[thoroughlyS]

I see.. then again, it's more an issue of having different spells available, rather than augmenting the spell slots.
I'm really mostly interested into the ritual caster thing..and aim to remain primarily a melee character.. so I'm a bit wary of sinking 3 levels of wizard in the build.... I've got sentinel, next will be polearm mastery and great weapon mastery... so, really, I'm not sure which direction I'll go in spell-wise.
(incidentally, we're limited to core books)
If you're trying to stay on track for those feats, then perhaps it would be best to take Wizard at 9th level (indomitable is nice, but pales in comparison to ritual casting, arcane recovery, and more cantrips). I still advocate for three levels, for the following features:

faster spell slot progression
subclass feature (everybody loves portent)
two levels of arcane recovery
enlarge/reduce
mirror image
misty step
shadow blade

[Dalebert]

Honestly? My vote is "never".

Funny timing as I just hit level 5 with my arcane trickster last night and my plan for some time has been to dip a level of wizard at level 5. My reasons were basically the same as yours. In particular I was looking forward to expanding my spells known options. Having immediate access to all the level 1 rituals (like 8?) seems really nice and I could unlearn Find Familiar as my one special AT spell. Meanwhile I would gain access to Shield and Absorb Elements without dipping into my precious non-ench and non-ill AT spells.

After seeing no increase in my spell slots at all and realizing that trend would continue, I opted to stay pure AT for now and possibly for good. I found myself reevaluating the costs vs. benefits and couldn't justify it UNLESS I was eventually going to lvl 2 wizard and I would benefit significantly from those features. I contemplated bladesinger but I'm primarily ranged. And the other stuff mostly just seems like fluff and icing that's not especially synergistic to an AT. Dipping a level of full wizard just feels like I should end up with slightly faster spell slot progression but weird multi-classing rules means it doesn't help at all and that will apply the EK similarly.

Pros:
* Access to first level rituals and a few more first level spells. However, you can already access the most synergistic ones--Find Familiar, Shield, and Absorb Elements. These spells won't impede you in an action economy way. You can still fight with all your actions and benefit from them. So meh.
* Recover one first level spell slot during a short rest once a day. Also meh.
* Access to first level rituals but honestly, you get so many feats as a fighter. I feel like Ritual Caster is so much better and won't set you back in progression.
* You can attune to wizard items. Can you think of something in particular that would be especially synergistic to a fighter that won't be in better hands with a pure caster in your party?

Cons:
* No faster spell slot progression.
* Slows your progress in fighter and EK features

[thoroughlyS]

Pros:
* Access to first level rituals and a few more first level spells. However, you can already access the most synergistic ones--Find Familiar, Shield, and Absorb Elements. These spells won't impede you in an action economy way. You can still fight with all your actions and benefit from them. So meh.
Access to more spells shouldn't be overlooked. Lack of spells known is one of the biggest complaints about Ranger, Sorcerer, and Warlock.

* Recover one first level spell slot during a short rest once a day. Also meh.
An extra casting of shield.

* Access to first level rituals but honestly, you get so many feats as a fighter. I feel like Ritual Caster is so much better and won't set you back in progression.
Up to six rituals (which can be accessed at all times) vs. two from Ritual Caster. Granted the delayed features are a big knock against multiclassing.

* You can attune to wizard items. Can you think of something in particular that would be especially synergistic to a fighter that won't be in better hands with a pure caster in your party?
To be fair, a Fighter with Polearm Master can use a magical staff in more ways than a full caster. Not the most optimized in terms of damage, but then again nothing is when compared to Great Weapon Master...

Cons:
* No faster spell slot progression.
Technically, taking one level of Wizard means your slots progress at exactly the same total level as a single-classed Eldritch Knight. Having the same slot progression is not a con. However, having delayed spells known is.

On the topic of Ritual Caster: Wanting Sentinel, Polearm Master, and Great Weapon Master on the same build means the earliest you could take Ritual Caster is at 12th level. Most games might not make it that far, or finish shortly after. Wizard gets you ritual casting much earlier, and potentially in greater scope.

[dehro]

Honestly? My vote is "never".

Funny timing as I just hit level 5 with my arcane trickster last night and my plan for some time has been to dip a level of wizard at level 5. My reasons were basically the same as yours. In particular I was looking forward to expanding my spells known options. Having immediate access to all the level 1 rituals (like 8?) seems really nice and I could unlearn Find Familiar as my one special AT spell. Meanwhile I would gain access to Shield and Absorb Elements without dipping into my precious non-ench and non-ill AT spells.

After seeing no increase in my spell slots at all and realizing that trend would continue, I opted to stay pure AT for now and possibly for good. I found myself reevaluating the costs vs. benefits and couldn't justify it UNLESS I was eventually going to lvl 2 wizard and I would benefit significantly from those features. I contemplated bladesinger but I'm primarily ranged. And the other stuff mostly just seems like fluff and icing that's not especially synergistic to an AT. Dipping a level of full wizard just feels like I should end up with slightly faster spell slot progression but weird multi-classing rules means it doesn't help at all and that will apply the EK similarly.

Pros:
* Access to first level rituals and a few more first level spells. However, you can already access the most synergistic ones--Find Familiar, Shield, and Absorb Elements. These spells won't impede you in an action economy way. You can still fight with all your actions and benefit from them. So meh.
* Recover one first level spell slot during a short rest once a day. Also meh.
* Access to first level rituals but honestly, you get so many feats as a fighter. I feel like Ritual Caster is so much better and won't set you back in progression.
* You can attune to wizard items. Can you think of something in particular that would be especially synergistic to a fighter that won't be in better hands with a pure caster in your party?

Cons:
* No faster spell slot progression.
* Slows your progress in fighter and EK features
absorb elements, sadly, is not in the PHB.
I'm thinking, all considered, that I'll stay EK for now, but with the option of taking a level of wizard, maybe somewhere between 7th and 10th level. I'd like to keep comparing notes though, to see how our experiences line up if and when we go different ways (we already are different kind of fighters, but still).

Access to more spells shouldn't be overlooked. Lack of spells known is one of the biggest complaints about Ranger, Sorcerer, and Warlock.

An extra casting of shield.

Up to six rituals (which can be accessed at all times) vs. two from Ritual Caster. Granted the delayed features are a big knock against multiclassing.

To be fair, a Fighter with Polearm Master can use a magical staff in more ways than a full caster. Not the most optimized in terms of damage, but then again nothing is when compared to Great Weapon Master...

Technically, taking one level of Wizard means your slots progress at exactly the same total level as a single-classed Eldritch Knight. Having the same slot progression is not a con. However, having delayed spells known is.

On the topic of Ritual Caster: Wanting Sentinel, Polearm Master, and Great Weapon Master on the same build means the earliest you could take Ritual Caster is at 12th level. Most games might not make it that far, or finish shortly after. Wizard gets you ritual casting much earlier, and potentially in greater scope.

question: wizard's ritual caster ability means I get it much earlier.. but is it limited to spell levels known as wizard? because the ritual caster feat is potentially open to rituals from all levels, not limited to 1st.
would it pay dividends to delay one of the martial feats in favour of anticipating the ritual caster feat? I'm thinking great weapon master is super cool but for the low level's I'm at now it basically reduces my attack rolls to a straight -3 on whatever lands on the die...which is a big gamble. yes, 10 extra points of damage matter a lot at these levels, but if most of my attacks aren't going to land, then it's a bit of a mirage.

[Tanarii]

question: wizard's ritual caster ability means I get it much earlier.. but is it limited to spell levels known as wizard? because the ritual caster feat is potentially open to rituals from all levels, not limited to 1st.
would it pay dividends to delay one of the martial feats in favour of anticipating the ritual caster feat? I'm thinking great weapon master is super cool but for the low level's I'm at now it basically reduces my attack rolls to a straight -3 on whatever lands on the die...which is a big gamble. yes, 10 extra points of damage matter a lot at these levels, but if most of my attacks aren't going to land, then it's a bit of a mirage.
Yes. You can only ritual cast spells in your spellbooks, and you can only put spells you can cast with your wizard levels (only) in your spellbooks. So for 1 level of Wizard you start with six level one spells, and can (if you can find or buy them) eventually get all 1st level Wizard spells in your spellbooks. But no spells above 1st level.

[dehro]

Yes. You can only ritual cast spells in your spellbooks, and you can only put spells you can cast with your wizard levels (only) in your spellbooks. So for 1 level of Wizard you start with six level one spells, and can (if you can find or buy them) eventually get all 1st level Wizard spells in your spellbooks. But no spells above 1st level.

that makes the ritual caster feat vastly superior...

[sophontteks]

that makes the ritual caster feat vastly superior...
If your only goal is to get ritual spells from multiclassing, then yes.

[thoroughlyS]

that makes the ritual caster feat vastly superior...
...if you assume you can get any rituals you want whenever you want. You would need to track down scrolls or spellbooks containing the rituals you want in order to gain any past the guaranteed two from the feat.

[Tanarii]

...if you assume you can get any rituals you want whenever you want. You would need to track down scrolls or spellbooks containing the rituals you want in order to gain any past the guaranteed two from the feat.
Spell scrolls of 4th level plus are also somewhat expensive to purchase, assuming the DM makes that possible. Going by the xanathars rules, they're 2d10x500 gp. Second and third are more reasonable at (1d6+1)x50 each.

Of course, wizards get a bunch of interesting rituals at levels 1 and 3. Its cleric Ritual Casters that have their eyes on level 4 and 5, for Divination and Commune, two of the best Rituals.

[Dalebert]

The ones that come to mind past 1st are Leomund's Tiny Hut (a good one!), Magic Mouth (a personal flavor favorite), Phantom Steed, and Rary's Telepathic Bond is fantastic. So Rary's will be the truly expensive one but probably worth it eventually.

[Whit]

I would wait for the ek lvl 10 for sure but warmage might be good.
Lvl 2 gives intelligence to initiative and get extra reaction ac +2 or +4 saves

[Arkhios]

Given how multiclassing affects spell slot progression, I'd say after 6th fighter level. That way, not only you get the 1st-level wizard goodies, but your total spellcasting level also immediately improves from "2 (6/3=2)" to 3, meaning as soon as you take wizard level, you immediately gain 2nd level spell slots.

Compared to full Eldritch Knight, that's still same-ish, except you now have access to a spell-book, potentially full of 1st-level spells. Of course, you won't learn 2nd-level spells until you take 7th fighter level.

Personally, I'd probably take 2 levels (or 5, or 8) in wizard, if being mostly a fighter is the idea. This is also purely because of how the multiclass spellcasting functions. When multiclassed, Eldritch Knight gets at most 18 levels "beneficial" towards that progression, because 18 is divisible by 3 (as is 15 and 12), while 19 or 20 aren't.

Effectively, in the end an EK 18/Wizard 2 accumulates to a total spellcasting level of 8. It's same-ish as a full EK, but at least it doesn't leave "permanently useless" levels in regards to the progression. Of course, you won't get access to 4th level spells, but again, you can potentially know every damn 1st-level spell on the wizard's spell list, and still up-cast them up to 4th level.

(EK 15/Wizard 5 accumulates a total spellcasting level of 10 with up to 3rd-level spells known from both classes, while EK 12/Wizard 8 accumulates a total spellcasting level of 12 with up to 4th-level spells known from wizard;

Interestingly, EK 12/Wizard 8 would know as powerful spells as a full EK, cast spells from up to 6th level spell slots, and has 3 attacks with the Attack action. If you were to make a very lenient "average" out of it (6th level spell slots/4th level spells known ≈ 5th level spells, kind of), it's kind of like a half-caster)



Side note, having studied this a fair deal, I noticed that for full classes, their levels count towards higher spell slot intervals as "rounded down". Including 1/2-casters (paladin and ranger) and 1/3-casters (arcane trickster and eldritch knight). Effectively this means that as soon as a fraction is more than a complete level, it counts for the next level regarding spell slot progression.

I find this interesting because it helps (me at least) to weigh the options against each other, when planning a character build.

[Citan]

my 4th level eldritch knight has a hankering for a few more cantrips and 1st level spells that he wouldn't have access to and, more importantly, I really want to try my hand at ritual casting. I could do both things with feats, but want to reserve those for martial purposes.
Since I don't think we'll ever reach 20th level (we're playing through hoard of the dragon queen and will follow it up by the rise of Tiamat, which I believe to get up to 15th level), I'm thinking that I shouldn't worry about losing access to the third fighter attack I'd get at the 20th level.... so.. one level dip seems the right way to go, and it's thematically acceptable for my character.
The question is, when should I do that? is there break point that's more auspicious than others?

on a separate note, does anyone know if there's a sequel adventure in the works to finish up the progression after rise of Tiamat?
Hi!
From bolded part, I'd say right after level 5 (Extra Attack) or 6 (feat?).
And I'd stop Fighter at either level 10 (Eldricht Strike) or 11 (3rd attack) to push Wizard for a few more levels. Many Schools are beneficial to an Eldricht Knight and you could learn also many 2nd level spells if your DM plays with you as far as "spell as loot or trade" is concerned.

So Fighter 5 > Wizard 1 > Fighter 11 > Wizard 3 for example.

[thoroughlyS]

would it pay dividends to delay one of the martial feats in favour of anticipating the ritual caster feat? I'm thinking great weapon master is super cool but for the low level's I'm at now it basically reduces my attack rolls to a straight -3 on whatever lands on the die...which is a big gamble.
It all depends on how heavily your character is valued as pure DPS to you and the rest of the party. You basically have a few options at this point:

Take Ritual Caster after all three other feats (damage output in combat is your biggest concern for you and your party)
Take Ritual Caster before one of the other feats (you are comfortable with your damage output, and want to contribute to party utility, while having the option of getting better rituals later)
Take one level of Wizard (you want to contribute to party utility, and want many options immediately available at the cost of delaying Fighter)
Take multiple levels of Wizard (you want to use the spells available from Wizard to augment your playstyle moving forward)

I personally like expanding options over reinforcing strengths so I would take some levels in Wizard, but that's just me. The real decision point between options 2 and 3 is which rituals you want and how many you want now.

[Dallion80]

that makes the ritual caster feat vastly superior...

Don't know if anyone pointed it out but with ritual caster you pick a class and can only have access to those ritual spells. the only ritual caster with acces to the full list of ritual spells is a tomelock.

Ritual Caster
Prerequisite: Intelligence or Wisdom 13 or higher

You have learned a number of spells that you can cast as rituals. These spells are written in a ritual book, which you must have in hand while casting one of them.

When you choose this feat, you acquire a ritual book holding two 1st-level spells of your choice. Choose one of the following classes: bard, cleric, druid, sorcerer, warlock, or wizard. You must choose your spells from that class's spell list, and the spells you choose must have the ritual tag. The class you choose also determines your spellcasting ability for these spells: Charisma for bard, sorcerer, or warlock; Wisdom for cleric or druid; or Intelligence for wizard.

If you come across a spell in written form, such as a magical spell scroll or a wizard's spellbook, you might be able to add it to your ritual book. The spell must be on the spell list for the class you chose, the spell's level can be no higher than half your level (rounded up), and it must have the ritual tag. The process of copying the spell into your ritual book takes 2 hours per level of the spell, and costs 50 gp per level. The cost represents material components you expend as you experiment with the spell to master it, as well as the fine inks you need to record it.

[dehro]

I am aware.. I'd go with wizard, who's got the biggest selection and is thematically relevant to my character.

[viaFAMILIAR]

I'm currently running a fighter4/wizard2 in curse of strahd and was super lucky in my ability score rolls. Plus DM gave us a free feat so I picked mobile(work's well with booming blade). Optimizing was never my goal so "when" was never an issue. I dipped once into wizard at level 2 for those ritual magics, ie: comprehend languages, detect magic, identify, find familiar and grabbed protection from g/e and shield, plus magehand, shocking grasp, and green-flame blade. I took wizard2(war magic) after hitting eldritch knight for an un-restricted selection of level 2 spells, mirror image and misty step. Now at level five those weapon attack cantrips deal an extra d8, and by RAW should work with the great weapon fighting style. Sure, when compared to a straight-up EK I'd be behind in raw damage output, I really like war magic school's arcane deflection reaction ability(+4 save!). Idk, I'm having lots of fun playing the party's arcanist and still holding up for days in melee.

[sambojin]

Since you're 4th level now, go to 5th in Eldritch Knight, get your second attack, and start kicking bumskis.
Then, immediately after that, decide whether you want more magic, or a feat.
Then, the level after that, decide again.

So the answer is, go to EK5, then decide. There is no wrong choice, because the level after, you get the other thing. That might be a similar thing, or completely different. But it happens after 5th lvl. About 5-6 Lvls of your main class is "optimal". Then it's your choice.

(unless you're one of those weirdly front loaded classes. Not fighter front loaded. Like cleric or druid front loaded. Then you might multiclass earlier "optimally". But you're a 4th lvl EK. The most optimal thing you can do is be a 5th lvl EK.