Nightscale - Yawning Portal Spoilers

[Kadesh]

How do you even begin to fight this monster as a party of assumed 4th level adventurers?

Functionally 90 off HP with AC23 due to 3/4 Cover, and not leaving the water making it impossible to melee. Assuming attacking stat to be an 18 with your ranhed attacks, that is still only an attack hit on a 17+ (or 15, if you have the archery fighting style). Saves capable of 60% passing the important ones, and npt doing that much damahe if they pass...

Is this fight a little too ovetuned at this level?

[Unoriginal]

How do you even begin to fight this monster as a party of assumed 4th level adventurers?

Functionally 90 off HP with AC23 due to 3/4 Cover, and not leaving the water making it impossible to melee. Assuming attacking stat to be an 18 with your ranhed attacks, that is still only an attack hit on a 17+ (or 15, if you have the archery fighting style). Saves capable of 60% passing the important ones, and npt doing that much damahe if they pass...

Is this fight a little too ovetuned at this level?

Fact number 1: dragons are badasses

Fact number 2: monsters won't make it easy to kill them if they can

Fact number 3: adventures do not strictly use the encounter difficulty calculation method for their encounters


There are ways to dealing with this dragon, notably finding a way to get her out of the lake or something similar. But you shouldn't expect to waltz in the boss room and get a mountain of gold after just a standard fight.

Keep in mind that given the disposition of the dungeon, the PCs can reach her room with full ressources, which mean they can unload everything on the boss, and that it's 1 vs all of the PCs.

[Finback]

Players can potentially do stuff a dragon can't - like wall in the cavern so it can't escape, with spells. Or cast lightning bolts into the water. Or cast magic missile over and over until it gets cranky and comes to fight them. Send in the rogue to steal some loot, and then launch the ambush. Cause a cave-in.

PCs will more often come up with a far more interesting way to battle than all-in war.

[ImproperJustice]

There’s a thought:

Could an arcane archer with enough patience slowly snipe the dragon via seeking arrow over the course of multiple short rests?

I mean it’s ridiculous sure, but could it be plausible?

Edit: NVM, you have to have seen the enemy in the last minute. Hmmm, maybe it could work with a familar?

[Finback]

Edit: NVM, you have to have seen the enemy in the last minute. Hmmm, maybe it could work with a familar?

Finally, says those few people who really wanted an aquatic familiar like an octopus.

[Kadesh]

Players can potentially do stuff a dragon can't - like wall in the cavern so it can't escape, with spells. Or cast lightning bolts into the water. Or cast magic missile over and over until it gets cranky and comes to fight them. Send in the rogue to steal some loot, and then launch the ambush. Cause a cave-in.

PCs will more often come up with a far more interesting way to battle than all-in war.

Lightning bolt at level 4?

The Dragon is aware of the party, unless they all have Darkvision and no need for torches (they don't, they have torches). And it has an effective +10 to stealth that way so it gets the jump on the party. It is immune to Acid and Resists Fire, and can only be hit on a 17+ unless they have a Magic bow or wand (they don't; they have a single magic arrow remaining from Sunless Citadel.

The Rogue is the best placed to deal damage but that is still 1 in 6 chance to hit, with only 1d8+4+2d6+1d4 with poison. Average 15-18 damage, and that is presuming that in between its missed attacks, the Rogue is able to maintain Stealth.

It isn't going to leave the water, it gets too much advantage from being in the water, and it knows this,playing whackamole. And if the party split up using the Water Breathing potions, well they'll just get melee'd with ease after it has swam someway out. A 12 is still needed to hit it; and it won't mind adding shatterspike to its horde.

The rogue has no cover on the stepping stones, so cannot hide. On a failed Dex Save (still more than possible with only a +6), it takes 49 damage, enough to instantly kill: potentially enough to instant kill on a Con 10. A wizard with 14 Con has 24 HP, and is instantly dropped on a success, when it cannot even Absorb/Resist Elements if surprised and Initiative doesn't fall in its favour.

What exactly does caving in do apart from trap a nigh immortal Dragon, strong enough to move and melt the boulders anyway? Minor bludgeoning damage if you get exactly on top of the Dragon?

I'm not ridiculing your suggestions. Just wondering how on earth you can get an unprepared level 4 5e party ready to fight an essentially all save proficient, 90 functioning hit point, instant killing, acid immune, fire resistant, AC23, non meleeable, creature.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

It can be done.

Hit and run tactics. A Bard with Shatter. A cleric with Healing Word. A Bard with Healing Word, a Wizard dropping an AOE spell.

Is it easy and can someone die? Yes.

[Kadesh]

It can be done.

Hit and run tactics. A Bard with Shatter. A cleric with Healing Word. A Bard with Healing Word, a Wizard dropping an AOE spell.

Is it easy and can someone die? Yes.
Please run by with some of the numbers. Shatter deals 13 damage, 6 on a success. Healing Word exposes the character, which means that the Dragons held action breath can hit it unless very clever placement multiple times.

What 2nd level or lower AoE spells are there that said Dragon with +5 Dex isn't likely to make? And are there enough spell slots to deal 90 pts of damage?

[Unoriginal]

I'm pretty sure that if the dragon stick to the water, the PCs can reach her pile of gold without her being able to stop them.

Have the Rogue do that. THAT will get her out of the water.

[Kadesh]

I'm pretty sure that if the dragon stick to the water, the PCs can reach her pile of gold without her being able to stop them.

Have the Rogue do that. THAT will get her out of the water.

The island is little more than 40ft across at its widest point, and they will have awoken her with the torchlight, or possible noise coming from the Scale wearing character having to scramble across the rock to the ledge south of the island.

The dragon is in between ledge and horde and swims quicker than most move; and even if not it is little more than flying over, eating a single round of ranged attacks with AC18 (likely sans rogue) before diving back under water and whack a mole acid breath.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

Please run by with some of the numbers. Shatter deals 13 damage, 6 on a success. Healing Word exposes the character, which means that the Dragons held action breath can hit it unless very clever placement multiple times.

What 2nd level or lower AoE spells are there that said Dragon with +5 Dex isn't likely to make? And are there enough spell slots to deal 90 pts of damage?

Yup, you are right.

Its difficult.

Not impossible.

Some things are just meant to be difficult.

Its heroic when you succeed with the odds stacked against you.

If you beat something you should beat its brave or well played?

They don't have to engage the dragon. To steal from it they do. They don't have to do that though.

[Kadesh]

Yup, you are right.

Its difficult.

Not impossible.

Some things are just meant to be difficult.

Its heroic when you succeed with the odds stacked against you.

If you beat something you should beat its brave or well played?

They don't have to engage the dragon. To steal from it they do. They don't have to do that though.
Literally being in the cave has the dragon attack you, who can only be stopped by giving all your gear to it, and walking out in rags, which few self respecting players will do, or enjoy doing. The adventure is intended to get you through to the end point and fight the dragon.

This fight IS doable. IF the dragon fails all its saves against your 3 shatters, without it targeting you in return (39 damage). If it gets hit by the Rogue 3 times, and doesn't identify the hiding place (51 damage). There is the 90hp you need.

That is a 16% chance for the saves to all be failed, and the Dragon intentionally ignoring the thing doing the most damage to it.

And the poisoned bow attacks? 0.8% chance to all hit. For both of those to happen; saves and hits? Nah.

What I'm trying to do is run the adventure as is, without changing loot, and run the monsters intentionally, and try and find a way which the players can win, and I'm just not seeing it with this one; the Roper was bad enough.

[ImproperJustice]

I am trying to remember how we took it down.

We had all at 4th level:

Dwarf Champion
Human Barbarian (Flavored as a Samurai)
Gnome Paladin
Human Alchemist

Prior to battle, the Alchemist hands out an expeditious retreat potion to the three warriors. All three drink before rushing in.
Round 1: Dragon reared it’s head and killed our Champion in a single blast. Barbarian rages and charges. Alchemist casts Sanctuary and uses healer feat to get champion back up. Paladin lays on hands on Champion.

Round 2: Dragon claws at Barbarian for managable damage. Alchemist administers healing draught to Champion. Paladin casts Bless. Both Champion and Paladin use bonus action to charge towards Dragon, in a triangle pattern to minimize movement. Champion hurls a spear. Barbarian makes bonus action swims to Dragon and makes athletic check to climb on / grab hold.

Remainder of battle: Warriors rotate between closing and damaging the Dragon. Alchemist activates daylight feature of driftglobe so Dragon is visible in water. Alchemist administes healing via feat, potion, or draught, while others eventually wear the dragon down.

The big winners were Bless (to punch through armor), Expeditious retreat (although Paladin had to drop hers), Sanctuary for the healer, and uses the Driftglobe to light the water. The Barbarians lack of armor was an assest in fighting in the water.

Then just the power of multiple strong attackers.

[Kadesh]

How did you close and retreat to and from the Dragon at half movement rate from 20-30ft away without taking a bucket of opportunity attacks? How did the Barbarian Concentrate? Did you get lucky with the breath recharge?

[ImproperJustice]

How did you close and retreat to and from the Dragon at half movement rate from 20-30ft away without taking a bucket of opportunity attacks? How did the Barbarian Concentrate? Did you get lucky with the breath recharge?

Dragon can only react once at a time.
Barbarian has a high Constitution and save proficiency. He only needed to dash once to get close. Then he grabbed with advantage and just held on and raged away.

We didn’t hit and run. I realize I didn’t describe it well. More that we made a triangle so that when it tried to move away, it ended up close enough to either the Paladin or the Champion to get close.
Once close, they followed the Barbarian’s tactic, then grabbed on and hacked away.

The Paladin got tossed at one point, Alchemist healed her up, and she used a few ranged attacks until she got another shot at it.

It only breathed one more time, at the Alchemist who made his save and survived to self heal the following turn.

[th3g0dc0mp13x]

I'm DMing this module right now and have run a few test fights. about a 25/75 split of tpk vs. killing or forcing her to flee. The key thing is the characters know there is a dragon in the mountain somewhere and are actively wanting to kill it now. Also your players apparently killed the roper, I haven't gotten that far but that ring could definitely change some stuff. With a ring of spell storing then you can have 2 suggestion attempts for your first two rounds. virtually guaranteeing a success.

Spells are king in this battle from what I've seen. Suggestion (DC 15 has a 60% chance of failure "fight us like the great wyrm you are and stop hiding in the water" or go even further with it.), Warding Bond, Bless, Armor of Agathys, Magic weapon.

Warcleric Primarily uses Bless, Spiritual weapon, and heals
Wolf totem Barbarian, Gets in it's face and tries to tank it.
Hexblade- primarily blasts it with EB or uses his whip if it's closer.
Battlemaster Archer with sharpshooter. (makes this fight a lot easier.)

Depending on spell choice this battle changes drastically. A cleric with Warding bond and bless can hide in the back and play support.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

Literally being in the cave has the dragon attack you, who can only be stopped by giving all your gear to it, and walking out in rags, which few self respecting players will do, or enjoy doing. The adventure is intended to get you through to the end point and fight the dragon.

This fight IS doable. IF the dragon fails all its saves against your 3 shatters, without it targeting you in return (39 damage). If it gets hit by the Rogue 3 times, and doesn't identify the hiding place (51 damage). There is the 90hp you need.

That is a 16% chance for the saves to all be failed, and the Dragon intentionally ignoring the thing doing the most damage to it.

And the poisoned bow attacks? 0.8% chance to all hit. For both of those to happen; saves and hits? Nah.

What I'm trying to do is run the adventure as is, without changing loot, and run the monsters intentionally, and try and find a way which the players can win, and I'm just not seeing it with this one; the Roper was bad enough.

Part of this might be having one of the 4 or 5 players out maneuver the 1 DM. Maybe you can get them! Remember the dragon IS trying to kill them.

Don't change the loot or the monsters. Sometimes PC's die. Its ok.

They don't HAVE TO fight the dragon either. They can get back out of there the way they come in.

Your math is also forgetting about the other PC's. Maybe they're worthless, who knows. Just run the adventure though. Give the players a warning that the dragon is really hard core and have fun.

[Kadesh]

Part of this might be having one of the 4 or 5 players out maneuver the 1 DM. Maybe you can get them! Remember the dragon IS trying to kill them.

Don't change the loot or the monsters. Sometimes PC's die. Its ok.

They don't HAVE TO fight the dragon either. They can get back out of there the way they come in.

Your math is also forgetting about the other PC's. Maybe they're worthless, who knows. Just run the adventure though. Give the players a warning that the dragon is really hard core and have fun.
I know I can and will. That said, I'd still like to try and discuss about how this encounter can be won by the players short of the DM just allowing them.

[KorvinStarmast]

Depending on spell choice this battle changes drastically. A cleric with Warding bond and bless can hide in the back and play support. When I ran warding bond during a serious fight a few clerics ago, it was really hand to keep a few healing pots so that I could replenish now and again as my HP degraded.
Not sure what your experience was.
I also learned that you can't stack that resistance on top of the Rage resistance for the barb; but the Paladin would be fine.