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View Full Version : D&D 5e/Next Symbiote Patron - Warlock Subclass



dboxcar
2018-10-05, 03:57 PM
https://preview.ibb.co/cAGBUK/anti_1.jpg

The Symbiote Patron (http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/H1Z5-H8Vq7)

In honor of the recently released Venom movie, which I actually enjoyed as a fun little romp.

PEACH for balance issues.

Bannan_mantis
2018-10-06, 08:11 AM
I do like your idea a lot and while a barbarian or fighter might be what most people think with a Symbiote a warlock would actually fit much more from how you make a bond with it.

Edit: I just saw your Benevolent Parasite, sorry I am blind

This is a really cool subclass and as a good recommendation, compare it to the hexblade a bit as they are both melee

dboxcar
2018-10-06, 08:31 AM
This is a really cool subclass and as a good recommendation, compare it to the hexblade a bit as they are both melee
Thanks! Yeah I compared it to a hexblade with Thirsting Blade and Lifedrinker. Similar in combat, with a little fluctuation in AC and damage, but hexblade being much more flexible with spells, and symbiote beign more flexible with invocations (since they don't have to sink invocations to improve their attacks like hexblade does). All in all, I think the comparison really comes down to how much magical equipment is availible (since hexblade can use it and symbiote can't really), and whether you typically fight one or two foes vs a bunch (since hexblade works best vs one and symbiote works well against any number).

Draken
2018-10-06, 09:51 AM
As written, this subclass sort of kills your armor class, has negative interaction with the warlock's basic functionality invocations (anything that interacts with Pact Weapon or Eldritch Blast really), this also severely undermining damage output and basically nullifies your ability to use your class features (spellcasting) while employing its basic feature (the symbiote transformation).

Speaking of the symbiote transformation. For what at its most basic is the cost of one spell slot and your concentration (since it ends all ongoing spells, which is actually worse as it removes Warlock's best spell, Armor of Agathis, from the running) you get...

Padded armor, a shortsword, a d4 bonus action attack and... a functional ability score? Also some resistances I suppose, excluding the second most common form of non-physical damage (most common form of non-physical damage if you are consistently fighting humanoids), so that is tricky to count. Also as written the transformation overrides the invocation that makes your AC 13+Dex so that is something else to consider.

I will be level with you, this is... Weak. The Self-healing class features are also not impressive because you are sacrificing aforementioned best warlock spell (Armor of Agathis) for less average durability and no damage.

sandmote
2018-10-06, 12:58 PM
The interference with your spells really cripples this. Just from the Expanded spell list, Hunter's Mark, Darkvision, Nondetection, Black Tentacles, Grasping Vine, Contagion, and Insect Plague fall apart if you transform. The resistance is nice, (better than most most barbarians, but worse than Bear totem) but really doesn't seem to balance out the low damage and reduced flexibility.

Perhaps just stop the warlock from casting while transformed? At the very least this would allow you to maintain Hunter's Mark, Armor of Agythys, and Mage Armor (once you get a third spell slot). Someone trying this would only be able to start using this full combination at level five, and only able to maintain it at level eleven. That's a long while to get reasonable melee abilities for all your spell slots.

dboxcar
2018-10-06, 03:14 PM
I'm glad you all think this isn't an overpowered subclass, which I was actually concerned about. It has superior damage output to a hexblade in many scenarios, and the resistance is potent unless you're regularly fighting fire damage creatures/casters. Plus, when you're not in combat, you get all the cool stuff of normal warlock (arguably more in terms of fun utility, since you don't have to invest invocations in eldritch blast or your pact weapon to keep up).

The spells you mentioned on the spell list are fairly placeholder, since I intended this type of warlock to not be casting many spells in-combat. The concept I'm woring from is the fairly standard "hulk out" model, where you're frail but tricksy outside of combat, but all beefy and (relatively) dumb once you start fighting. If someone wanted to be melding spells and melee, they should be playing hexblade :smalltongue:

I will admit that the armor class issue is one I'm struggling with. Should it be 12+Dex, do you think? Or maybe even 13+Dex? Rather than give spell functionality during Symbiote form (which you all seem to want--play hexblades!), I'd rather make the Symbiote form powerful and versetile enough so that they don't miss it. What do you think should be improved or added to make the Symbiote form meet your epectations within the limitations of the ability? If the main problem really is just "not being able to concentrate or maintain buff," then that might acceptable, but I think it's more fun if the Venom stand-in isn't orbited by 3 mirror images. I'd love suggestions for what should be better about it to make up for the lost spellcasting.


Edit: It occurs to me that I should mention my methodology here. I'm thinking of this more from a "I want a Symbiote subclass, warlock has the right flavor and class mechanics to make that work" perspective, whereas the general complaints (which as still valid, potentially), seem to be coming from "he's neutered the things that make a warlock a warlock." My primary goal here is to make a cool Symbiote-host subclass, warlock was just a conveniant scaffold. I'm going for a pretty big break from traditional warlock here, so thinking of this compared to ranger might be better.
Also, I shifted the AC up to 12+Dex, added a clause about spells granted by invocations working in Symbiote form, and am currently thinking of other stuff to add. Thanks for you honest feedback!

Amnoriath
2018-10-06, 06:02 PM
The problem though is that you have really good spell choices that really emulate symbiote combat. However, you can't use any of them while in symbiote form while using your precious spell slots. The latter isn't horrible but the former just goes against the whole idea of the symbiote in the comics as well as the warlock. If you are having them choose another set of pacts then you need to make invocations for them.

ATHATH
2018-10-06, 09:10 PM
Keep in mind that a lot of martial/non-spellcasting characters are just going to dip Symbiote Warlock 1/2 for resistance to most forms of damage (but worse AC) for 1 hour at a time once/twice per short rest. It's like a Barbarian dip, but without the limitations of Rage.

Amnoriath
2018-10-06, 10:01 PM
Keep in mind that a lot of martial/non-spellcasting characters are just going to dip Symbiote Warlock 1/2 for resistance to most forms of damage (but worse AC) for 1 hour at a time once/twice per short rest. It's like a Barbarian dip, but without the limitations of Rage.
1. Keep in mind they just altered the form to be a bit better so all these comments are critiques of the first draft.
2. It doesn't have that much more freedom. You have to dedicate invocations to at will false life, mage armor, levitate, detect magic, and once per long rest castings. Not that great of choices currently.

Amnoriath
2018-10-06, 11:44 PM
I'm glad you all think this isn't an overpowered subclass, which I was actually concerned about. It has superior damage output to a hexblade in many scenarios, and the resistance is potent unless you're regularly fighting fire damage creatures/casters. Plus, when you're not in combat, you get all the cool stuff of normal warlock (arguably more in terms of fun utility, since you don't have to invest invocations in eldritch blast or your pact weapon to keep up).

The spells you mentioned on the spell list are fairly placeholder, since I intended this type of warlock to not be casting many spells in-combat. The concept I'm woring from is the fairly standard "hulk out" model, where you're frail but tricksy outside of combat, but all beefy and (relatively) dumb once you start fighting. If someone wanted to be melding spells and melee, they should be playing hexblade :smalltongue:

I will admit that the armor class issue is one I'm struggling with. Should it be 12+Dex, do you think? Or maybe even 13+Dex? Rather than give spell functionality during Symbiote form (which you all seem to want--play hexblades!), I'd rather make the Symbiote form powerful and versetile enough so that they don't miss it. What do you think should be improved or added to make the Symbiote form meet your epectations within the limitations of the ability? If the main problem really is just "not being able to concentrate or maintain buff," then that might acceptable, but I think it's more fun if the Venom stand-in isn't orbited by 3 mirror images. I'd love suggestions for what should be better about it to make up for the lost spellcasting.


Edit: It occurs to me that I should mention my methodology here. I'm thinking of this more from a "I want a Symbiote subclass, warlock has the right flavor and class mechanics to make that work" perspective, whereas the general complaints (which as still valid, potentially), seem to be coming from "he's neutered the things that make a warlock a warlock." My primary goal here is to make a cool Symbiote-host subclass, warlock was just a conveniant scaffold. I'm going for a pretty big break from traditional warlock here, so thinking of this compared to ranger might be better.
Also, I shifted the AC up to 12+Dex, added a clause about spells granted by invocations working in Symbiote form, and am currently thinking of other stuff to add. Thanks for you honest feedback!
1. Yes, if they don't make a Pact of the Blade, really optimize Eldritch Blast, or not use hexes.
2. Why? You have spells that emulate what symbiotes do. Why are you trying to break the connection?
3. I don't think you should be quick to boost Dexterity like that because that is what holding down the AC and other abilities. I think you need to synergize more and be a little less tanky.

dboxcar
2018-10-07, 12:16 AM
Again, thank you for your continued feedback!

I would love to just not have spells at all tbh, and only have the "precious spell slots" be "uses of symbiote form per rest, and healing in symbiote form." Are you incredibly stuck on the spells being meaningful? I'm trying out caving and adding something like "Once per transformation, you may cast a spell you know as if with the slot used to activate this transformation."
A drastic power boost - is the current state of this now wayy too good?

What do you think would be a good alternative to the tankiness? Or are you still only talking about the spells not being involved?

ATHATH
2018-10-07, 02:07 AM
Again, thank you for your continued feedback!

I would love to just not have spells at all tbh, and only have the "precious spell slots" be "uses of symbiote form per rest, and healing in symbiote form." Are you incredibly stuck on the spells being meaningful? I'm trying out caving and adding something like "Once per transformation, you may cast a spell you know as if with the slot used to activate this transformation."
A drastic power boost - is the current state of this now wayy too good?

What do you think would be a good alternative to the tankiness? Or are you still only talking about the spells not being involved?
You could make this be a subclass of something other than Warlock. Barbarian might work well.

dboxcar
2018-10-07, 09:30 AM
You could make this be a subclass of something other than Warlock. Barbarian might work well.
Daaang, ouch. No, warlock works best for the concept of a weak person who becomes strong (barbarian subclasses start at 3rd level). I'minterested on your thoughts on the current state of the thing a la the 180 I've done in terms of spells, but otherwise it seems we're at an impass.

Any ideas for how to make it less tanky? I feel like it becomes pretty weak if you take away the resistance, but maybe now with spells it's actually overpowered.

sandmote
2018-10-07, 01:05 PM
I recall some mention of your spells ending when you transform that I don't see now. If I was wrong about it being there, please ignore my earlier position on allowing spellcasting while transformed. Simply allowing the warlock to maintain their buffs while transformed is probably a sufficient increase in power for the class to function (compared to what I was responding to earlier).

Requiring the warlock to cast in-combat buffs before they can gain resistance would probably be a nice way to balance this out, and give the player a choice (other buffs vs. resistance) while you're at it. I fully admit I might be pulling a 180 after you've caved (If I made up the warlock's spells being dispelled/ended when they transform).

dboxcar
2018-10-07, 01:48 PM
I recall some mention of your spells ending when you transform that I don't see now. If I was wrong about it being there, please ignore my earlier position on allowing spellcasting while transformed. Simply allowing the warlock to maintain their buffs while transformed is probably a sufficient increase in power for the class to function (compared to what I was responding to earlier).

Requiring the warlock to cast in-combat buffs before they can gain resistance would probably be a nice way to balance this out, and give the player a choice (other buffs vs. resistance) while you're at it. I fully admit I might be pulling a 180 after you've caved (If I made up the warlock's spells being dispelled/ended when they transform).
Nah I changed that last night, you're good!

The way I have it now, you can cast spells in Symbiote form, and effectively reclaim the spell slot used to transform (since you can use it once during the transformation):
"Once per transformation, you may cast a spell you know as if using the Pact Magic slot you expended to activate the transformation."
Is that wording clear? Do you think that's too leniant? I figure simpler is best, unless it's drastically over- or under-powered. As-is now, I'm fairly happy with the whole thing.

sandmote
2018-10-07, 02:00 PM
Nah I changed that last night, you're good!

Okay, glad to hear I'm not misremembering. I don't think reclaiming the spell slot (or casting while transformed) is necessary, But I think it'll be in line with the other warlock subclasses either way.

Amnoriath
2018-10-07, 02:21 PM
Better, that new ability is a nice touch. The one thing rhat worries me now is how much better Looming Hunger is. Boosting strength as well as increasing dexterity by 11 as well the other damage boosts, advantages really makes it the best choice of all of them.
The Stalker is last as it is just proficiency, speed boost, and spider climb. While not bad but statistically offers the least.

dboxcar
2018-10-07, 03:38 PM
Better, that new ability is a nice touch. The one thing rhat worries me now is how much better Looming Hunger is.
Yeah I think that's my new sticking point. Looming Hunger lets you get an avg 1 extra damage per attack, brings you from no Strength abilities to maxed out with advantage, and only penalizes AC by 1 or 2 compared to the other pacts. Do you think it's still worth taking if it didn't have the advantage on STR saves/checks?


Boosting strength as well as increasing dexterity by 11 as well...
It's not comparatively a boost to Dex, it sets your Dex bonus 1 or 2 lower than it would be with the other pacts. But it might not be enough of a drawback, and I don't wanna penalize AC any more than that, so I still agree that Looming Hunger needs to be toned down without becoming useless, and Stalker needs a bit of a boost. Any ideas?

For Looming, I'm thinking it takes a bonus action to get the advantage on Strength checks.
For Stalker I was thinking having all opportunity attacks have disadvantage against you. How's that sound?


Also, I'm thinking the magical weapon features should probably be invocations now. Are the 6th, 10th, and 14th -level features strong enough to stand on their own?

Draken
2018-10-08, 12:29 AM
Pact of Looming Hunger is fine for one simple reason.

Dex > Str.

Edit: And no, the level 10 and 14 features are not strong enough to stand on their own. They are still, basically, "on average inferior healing to Armor of Agathis (4.5/level vs 5/level), without the damage".

dboxcar
2018-10-08, 08:52 AM
Pact of Looming Hunger is fine for one simple reason.

Dex > Str.
Cool, yeah that's why I figured it was okay.


Edit: And no, the level 10 and 14 features are not strong enough to stand on their own. They are still, basically, "on average inferior healing to Armor of Agathis (4.5/level vs 5/level), without the damage".
Mmm good point. To be fair the 14th-level one also gives an average of 5 extra damage to an attack they can make every round, so that one won't need too much tuning up, but I'll figure out how to tweak the healing thing (or replace it with something cool that still generalizes between Looming Hunger and the other two).

Vogie
2018-10-08, 09:05 AM
I like it. It's a bit underpowered just because it really limits your Warlock-ness, even though the features themselves are quite powerful.

Ideally, this would be a Prestige Class that would

Require 5 levels in Barbarian
Require 5 levels in Warlock
Use a blend of the two class features to make something really close to the symbiote


But alas, PrCs weren't a thing in this edition...

Draken
2018-10-08, 10:56 AM
Cool, yeah that's why I figured it was okay.


Mmm good point. To be fair the 14th-level one also gives an average of 5 extra damage to an attack they can make every round, so that one won't need too much tuning up, but I'll figure out how to tweak the healing thing (or replace it with something cool that still generalizes between Looming Hunger and the other two).

Honestly, I would turn the bonus action healing into an invocation (It would be fairly ok if turned into a bonus action to cast Cure Wounds on yourself, as the healing would match and there would be an action economy advantage in play).

Improved Magical Attacks and Greater Magical attacks adds significant value to those levels so the main features of each can afford to be on the weaker side.

I guess I would move the extra acid damage to the level 10 feature (and put it on claws too) and make the level 14 feature the ability to use the Primal Savagery cantrip as a bonus action after using your claws?

dboxcar
2018-10-09, 12:37 PM
Okay, I'm gonna be doing a dramatic do-over of the 10th and 14th -level features (potentially distributed by decisions and/or Pact), and seperating the magical attacks features out as invocations (and maybe creating other specialized invocations as well). Stay tuned!

dboxcar
2018-10-09, 09:02 PM
Dramatic changes have been made! I've shifted most of the damage resistances to the 10th level feature (all but bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing), totally revamped the 10th and 14th -level features, mostly seperated the magical attacks features away into invocations, put the "Extra Attack"-simulating feature into an invocation, and created a potent 7th-level invocation for each pact option.

As ever, please tear into it!

FullMTLPaladin
2019-03-05, 09:41 PM
Hi, I'm a Homebrew designer that mostly frequents Twitter! I really liked this as an initial concept. I'm a huge Venom fan and I love playing warlocks so this is kind of my jam. That and I made an entire Class so I could play monstrous characters like Venom.

I say all this to ask you if you wouldn't mind me doing up my own version on DND beyond? I'd like to credit you as well, and we could make it a collaboration if you like any of the changes I make.