View Full Version : Here's a thought...

2007-09-17, 08:50 AM
I've seen alot of threads trying to up base classes, so that they're on par with Wizards and Clerics and such. Problem with that is, they just try to break the Fighter and such, and call it fair, because "they're still not as powerful as Wizards!"

Enough of this. We know the wizards and clerics are broken. The answer should not be to "fix" every other class, but to reduce the extreme power of a full spellcaster. My suggestion -

Give the full spellcasters the same casting as Bards. Not the same spells, but only up to 6th level apells. I realize that this eliminates ALOT of spells, icludig alot of iconic ones, but that can be fixed as well. WIth 6th level spells being the most powerful, we can reduce some of the iconic spells in level. Not all of them, just things like Control Undead, which make sense for a caster to be able to do.

The main problem comes from the Duskblade now, who would have to have his max spell level reduced to 4 or so, due to his being an (almost) full caster under this system.

Don't touch the 4th level spellers, such as Paladin or Ranger. Their spells remain unchanged. Now they're actually built in gishes and such, rather than just having spellcasting on the side (and often removing it for some variant, because they don't like bookeeping).

This also rises the Bard up to Full Caster status, and, though still not as powerful as say wizards, is now a rather potent party member.

So, comments? In this, Wizards are still more powerful than most other classes, yes, but it's no tnearly as blaringly so. Now it's a much more subtle superiority. I'm sure this has been suggested before, but I'd like to see what people think about it.

2007-09-17, 08:59 AM
Itīs also a very valid Fix, indeed better than juicing up most of the other classes, but itīs a lot more work. To be honest, I would have liked to see something like this for 4th Ed - complete with removing Leap Attack/shock Trooper Cheese. Also some tweaking to the base classes HD(not increasing the amount, hehe, not under this variant, just giving the Fighter less sucky ones, while giving the druid worse ones).

But this requires extensive reworking of half the spellcasting system, removal of some Feats if Non-Core, reworks of several classes etc.
Itīs a good fix for Core-only, though.

2007-09-17, 09:36 AM
The problem is that players rarely like a nerf. When you've got a balance issue, a boost to the underpowered aspects is going to be more popular than a nerf to the overpowered classes. What you propose would indeed be a valid solution, but it would come at the cost of a bad taste in full-caster players' mouths. If you plan to follow through on this, be prepared to deal with flack from your players for that.

I suppose a lot of this is based on what kind of players you're dealing with. If you've got accepting players who understand that casters are overpowered already, this would be an easier sell.

2007-09-17, 09:57 AM
If you plan to follow through on this, be prepared to deal with flack from your players for that.

Three magic words: "Low magic setting". You'd need some fluff to justify this, and maybe some other crunch to partially rebalance this (rarer/lower-powered magic items; maybe a lowest hit die of d6; maybe nerfing bardic spellcasting further). If you do this, then in my opinion, you get the following:

The druid remains potentially a little over-powered (shapechanging/animal companion cheese), but less so, while the cleric, wizard and sorceror come out just about balanced.

2007-09-17, 07:08 PM
My favorite fix is 'The Price of Magic.'

Simply put, every spell has an HP sacrifice that accompanies it. Wish requires that all but one HP be sacrificed, and any HP restoration resulting from it, doesn't take place 'til the next round. Better be invincible if you use that one in combat.

It cuts down on the Epic Spell Spam.

2007-09-17, 09:25 PM
That is a nice fix. Is it like the PP system of Psionics (1st level spells cost 1 HP, 2nd 3 HP, 3rd 5 HP)? If so, that's really easy to implements... Although I wouldn't apply it to Healing Spells...

2007-09-17, 09:37 PM
Well doh! I like this idea but maybe if we just reduced the number of spells known that players received. So that people aren't running around with tons 9th level spells and blasting away at stuff totally at random...

2007-09-17, 10:00 PM
Hey, I like this. Except I might have Wizards and Sorcerers go to level 7 while Druid and Clerics go to level 6.
In fact maybe even having Druids go to Level 5 would be better.

Anyway this isn't really a nerf until high level play and by then I'm sure players will find they are still quite effective members of the party. They just wont outshine the other party members quite like they used to.

I think if I DM another game before I convert to 4e (If I concert to 4e) then I'll use this. Of course most of my campaigns don't make it to levels where caster become too broken unless we start it in the mid-level range.

I must say this is much better than boosting the fighter (something I'm guilty of trying).

2007-09-17, 10:36 PM
I like how 2nd edition used it: Some spells needs a long time to cast (some more than various rounds), and it takes time to memorise spells, rather than one hour, making it harder for wizards/clerics/druids to burn it all in one go. So, you spent that 7th level and that 9th level spells? The next day you need 70 minutes for one, and 90 for the other. Only these two spells require over 2 hours to be prepared. If you don't have the time, tough. It was a way to balance the game.

Edit: Oh yeah, hard to balance it with sorcers and bards.