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View Full Version : D&D 5e/Next Roguish Archetype: The Luchador



ZenBear
2018-10-07, 11:29 PM
I'm trying to come up with a custom subclass for one of my players' characters; Tortuga, the Tiefling Luchador. For a while now he's gotten by with just playing a bog standard Thief Rogue, bashing people with The Chair, making leaping tackles from out of nowhere, and occasionally pinning foes down. He's got both the Grappler and Tavern Brawler feats, and Expertise in Athletics, but I still don't feel like in-game he's getting to really live the full pro wrestler experience he wants to. So, homebrew subclass for the win! I need help though, because I'm not a pro wrestling fan so I don't know exactly what I need to include to construct that fantasy. I'm hoping the Playground will be of assistance. So here's what I've got so far:

Pro Grappler

Starting at 3rd level, whenever you are grappling an opponent you can use your Cunning Action to make a melee attack against the target.

Grappling Superiority

Maneuvers

You learn three special maneuvers. You can use only one maneuver per action.

You learn two additional maneuvers of your choice at 7th, 10th, and 15th level. Each time you learn new maneuvers, you can also replace one maneuver you know with a different one.

Superiority Dice

You start with four superiority dice, which are d8s, and you expend one whenever you use a maneuver. You regain them all when you finish a short or long rest.

You gain another superiority die at 7th level and one more at 15th level.

Saving Throws

Some of your maneuvers require your target to make a saving throw to resist the maneuver's effects. The saving throw DC is calculated as follows:

Maneuver save DC: 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Strength or Dexterity modifier (your choice)

Improved Grappling Superiority

When you reach 9th level, your superiority dice turn into d10. When you reach level 17, your dice turn into d12.

Relentless

Starting at level 13, whenever you roll for initiative and have zero superiority dice, you get 1 superiority die back.

King of the Ring

Starting at level 17,

Maneuvers

Take Down: When you successfully grapple an opponent, you can expend one superiority die to attempt to knock the target prone. If the target is Large or smaller, it must make a Strength saving throw or be knocked prone, and you roll your superiority die and the target takes that much bludgeoning damage.

Death from Above: When falling from a height of 10 feet or higher, you can expend a superiority die to make an attack against a target you intend to land on. If you hit, roll your superiority die and add the result of the roll to your damage, and reduce the fall damage you take by that amount.

Obviously I'm just taking the Battle Master's Combat Superiority feature and overlaying it onto the Rogue chassis, which I think works well enough. One problem however is that one of my other players is a Battle Master Fighter, and so if the Rogue is getting the same sort of features one or more levels sooner, he'll likely feel a bit miffed. I need help determining more maneuvers, as well as the 17th level feature which at this point is just a placeholder. Help would be greatly appreciated! I'm really having a hard time with this one.

Bannan_mantis
2018-10-08, 12:19 AM
Just out of curiosity, why is this a rogue subclass? This feels much more like a barbarian or a fighter. Does it have something to do with his character? I am just wondering if there is a specific reason cause rogues aren't really a grapple class in my eyes

Also, king of the ring is empty

ZenBear
2018-10-08, 02:26 AM
Just out of curiosity, why is this a rogue subclass? This feels much more like a barbarian or a fighter. Does it have something to do with his character? I am just wondering if there is a specific reason cause rogues aren't really a grapple class in my eyes

Also, king of the ring is empty

He wanted to play a Rogue, then the Luchador idea came into being. Apart from lower hit points and no Extra Attack, Rogue is actually quite excellent for grappling with Expertise and Reliable Talent. It also makes the Grappler feat actually relevant by allowing Sneak Attack to work on grappled targets.

King of the Ring is just a placeholder, I have no idea what to put there.

Bannan_mantis
2018-10-08, 03:43 AM
I will say that if you are going to be a rogue grappler there is a lot of good stuff to help you with it so I can say that a rogue could work but remember, when you grapple onto a creature that creature will be attacking you so I think you should add some abilities to increase it's ability to be a tank

Vogie
2018-10-08, 09:50 AM
I like the concept, but it's too thin thus far.

You certainly need more Maneuvers. At the very least Disarming Attack, Distracting Attack, and Rally.

What I would do:

Rename your 3rd level ability King of the Ring, and give a feature to grapple a target when you successfully use a Sneak attack on a melee target. Perhaps also make your unarmed strikes finesse weapons. Keep the Cunning Action attack on grappled targets, that's pretty smart.
Move maneuvers to level 9, and have them start at d10s
Add some fluff at 13, in addition to the Relentless effect. Perhaps the Tavern Brawler ability (Use the Chair!) or an at-will Disguise Self.
Make your 17th level ability be really silly, perhaps the following:

Life Imitates Art:
When you reach 17th level, you can make a brilliant performance in all fights. You can use each one of these features once, and regain all features on short or long rest:
Declare Arch Nemesis: As a bonus action, you can loudly utter a vow of enmity against a creature you can see within 10 feet of you. You gain advantage on attack rolls against the creature for 1 minute, until it drops to 0 hit points, or falls unconscious.
Souring Jump: If you have advantage on the attack roll, you gain a flying speed equal to your current walking speed. This benefit works only in short bursts, you fall if you end your turn in the air and nothing else is holding you aloft.
Dramatic Charge: If you move at least 20 feet in a straight line toward a large or smaller target before making a melee attack against it, you can use a bonus action to make an additional attack against it.


I will say that if you are going to be a rogue grappler there is a lot of good stuff to help you with it so I can say that a rogue could work but remember, when you grapple onto a creature that creature will be attacking you so I think you should add some abilities to increase it's ability to be a tank

That's actually a good point. Maybe add a maneuver that can be deployed as a reaction that reduces incoming damage by targets you are grappling.

ZenBear
2018-10-10, 01:28 AM
Thanks for the feedback, folks! I've decided to ditch the maneuvers, as they take up too much real estate in the archetype. Better to keep it simple since my player is brand new to D&D.

Close Quarters Combat
Starting at 3rd level, whenever you are grappling a creature you can use the bonus action granted by your Cunning Action to make a melee attack against it. You can use your Sneak Attack against creatures you have grappled.

I think this accomplishes everything that needs to exist to make an effective grappling Rogue work, and doesn't make the Grappler or Tavern Brawler feats entirely obsolete. Of particular note, a melee attack can also be a grapple or shove, allowing the Rogue to grapple and knock their target prone in the same turn, or pin them if they have the Grappler feat.

That's all I need for the foreseeable future, but I will continue to consider what the higher level features should be. I think there should definitely be some Performance aspect, as pro wrestlers are at heart entertainers. Maybe something along the lines of the Enthrall spell:


You weave a distracting string of words, causing creatures of your choice that you can see within range and that can hear you to make a Wisdom saving throw. Any creature that canít be charmed succeeds on this saving throw automatically, and if you or your companions are fighting a creature, it has advantage on the save. On a failed save, the target has disadvantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks made to perceive any creature other than you until the [performance] ends or until the target can no longer hear you. The [effect] ends if you are incapacitated or can no longer speak.

Pragmatically it makes sense to give them some kind of tanky feature, but I don't know that its necessary or thematically appropriate. Maybe give them something akin to the Battlerager's Reckless Abandon, granting temp HP after any successful grapple?

EDIT: I forgot that this character is a Tiefling with Devil's Tongue, so he'll get Enthrall at 5th level anyway. I still like the idea of some kind of Performance feature, but in this case I won't be using that.