Making a BBEG to last?

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Perhaps the most difficult thing to do in DnD in the current edition is to make a good challenge for a climactic fight that results in neither TPK nor the PCs mopping the floor with the opposition for a competent/well played party at high pre-epic or low epic levels. Such a thing could be done by intentionally fudging the rolls to make the fight longer-but such a solution is not an "honest" solution.

Classed opponents tend to either suck more often than not in combat (meelers) or go nova and win in one round (casters). Dragons as given are simply too vulnerable to many tactics-charging fighters that do damage in the hundreds can drop a dragon. Wizards with shivering touch kill them in one round. Abominations I've found more durable-but they usually lack any offencive punch at that CR range (Infernals and Atropals are easily countered in their magic attacks and have wimpy meele attacks. Dream Larvae and Anaxims suffer from Forcecage vulnerability. )

In a campaign of mine, I've need of such a BBEG as fights so far have been either boring or too tough so I have to save the players via DM fiat. My goal is to make a memorable BBEG that will result in a really epic fight within the following guidelines:

1) CR range is 23 to 26, roughly equal to that of an Infernal or some of the Great Wurm dragons. By CR I mean actual CR, not estimates-a well played, fairly good epic group at ECL 24 should be given a run for its money. (note that neither the infernal nor the great wurm dragons are challenges for an ECL 24 group in practice-they die in one round)

2) The fight should last many rounds (around 15) and should eat away 50% of the group's resources before ending.

3) The BBEG must be resistant to cheap shots like shivering touch, high-CL blasphemies and uber spell combos. The PCs must work to defeat it.

4) The BBEG must not be able to kill the PCs in a single round if they're adequately protected. Large amounts of damage are OK-the cleric has access to Mass Heal and Miracle 6 times per day minimum (preferably 10+ times with ISC) plus a couple of epic spells that may help. Death effects and Mind-affecting effects are fine as well-the PCs should be protected from them. Not good are things like blasphemy, too high DC flesh to stone and other unstoppable insta-lose effects.

5 The BBEG should not rely on stat-boosters (straight bonus to ability scores, saves or AC) as it is not cool and because the party will claim said items later. Instead, the BBEG should have cool, memorable items instead.

6 The BBEG must be a memorable NPC-possibly a recurring villain.


Any ideas on how to make something like that?


EDIT: I am leaning towards either a powerful undead with Unholy Toughness so it adds its charisma modifier to its HP per level or an Abomination with a constitution in the 40-50 region.

[AKA_Bait]

Humm. Well, I'm thinking one of the iconic BBEG types: Vampire.

Given the CR you want, a Vampire Lord (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20021018a) might be in order. Toss in a whole bunch of class levels of something, say sorcerer, or what strikes me as a fun fun idea, Beguiler or Cleric.

Fight should last a while because of the DR and undead immunities and the vamp ought to be able to escape if things get too nasty with Gaseous Form.

The Dominating Gaze (DC in the mid to high 20's should make the fight last a while. Mr. Vampy can dominate the party fighter, or whoever has a crappy will save and turn them on their friends.

Also, vampiers mean dominated minions and spawn. Vampire lords, or the Master Vampires from LM, mean other vampires serving them in the fray as well.

One last note, boost this dudes Cha up with other means, like Tomes which the PC's won't get their hands on.

[Ashtar]

So wait, if the players can down a great worm in hand to hand in one (1!) round, what kind of hit point total are we looking at? I mean, at that point, start giving DR 15/- (or 30/-) to the monster at a minimum, Immunity to ability damage, Immunity to a majority of save or lose, Immunity to energy drain, Good SR and more.

Hum, I would see Constructs and Undead both being a good base, totally cheesed out of course.

Also, never, ever let the players find the BBEG alone. I mean, 1 Monster Vs PC Group = Group wins unless your monster uses 1 shot cheese.
Even a ancient great Wyrm should have allies (2-3 clerics, a wizard, toss in a rogue too), servants (demons) or children (Advanced half dragons and middle aged dragons).

The great classic is a powerful Sorcerer (or Cleric) (Demi-)Lich served by a undead army from the plane of shadow crossed with demons (or devils if you prefer) working to reanimate an ancient god (or replace one).

The problem with Epic games, in my opinion, is that it has a tendency to degenerate in a sort of DM vs Players arms race.

A BBEG should always send in their "trusted" lieutenants deal with the characters first, Vecna had Kas for example, The Emperor had Darth Vader...

And remember master Yoda's words
"Always two there are; no more, no less: a master and an apprentice."

[Proven_Paradox]

I've found that the best way to challenge for the closing fight is to have the PCs fight multiple opponents. In this case, I suggest a BBEG that's a high-level something (the vampire lord is a good idea) with a bunch of mooks that are of lower level, but not so low that they just fall over before the might of the PCs.

[Ashtar]

Have a cabal of four, a female vampire lord (served by a huge werewolf creature), a construct rebelled from mechanus, a Rakshasa and an advanced bone devil...

An they are looking to capture the book of Zo!

[chiefwaha]

Undead are a bit vulnerable with a high level cleric in the group. My suggestion is a construct of some sort. Perhaps a wizard that's infused his intelligence into a golem of some sort.

[AKA_Bait]

Undead are a bit vulnerable with a high level cleric in the group. My suggestion is a construct of some sort. Perhaps a wizard that's infused his intelligence into a golem of some sort.

I don't think the undead thing is that much of a worry with a Vampire Lord of the level in question. We are talking 20 hd and +8 turn resistance (at least). A cleric of 24th level could only turn one with a check of 22+ a cleric of any lower level (or with PRC's or multiclassing that don't up the Turning modifier) will never be able to turn one no matter what they roll. If you had the Vampire made with the Corpsecrafter Bolster Resistance Feat or gave them Improved Turn Resistance from LM then it would be even higher.

As for minions, the nice thing about Vampires is that thanks to their Dominate ability most of their servants don't actually need to be undead themselves. Heck, they can have dominated a wizard or two to build them some golems.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Upping the BBEG's stats with tomes to avoid the items I don't like is a very good suggestion.

Immunity to necromantic stuff (ability damage/drain, energy drain) is also a good suggestion.

High SR I'll have to look into it-there are far too many ways to boost SR checks that a caster could get a +30 to its checks easy (truecasting + assay resistance already add to +20)

A high HP total by that point would be in the 1000+ region. Assuming each PC's attack does at least 100 damage, all the PCs combined could do 400. The monster could have high SR/AC making half the attacks miss so the monster, if it doesn't heal, would last 5 rounds. Ofcourse, a lucky/smart PC could do MUCH more than that (see below) and send the mechanic out of whack considerably.




The problem with constructs is that they are mindless-not good BBEGs. The problem with awakened constructs is that they lose their magic immunity and become giants-very crappy saves there. So, I can't really use constructs. Besides, they have the fewest HP of all monsters and they can't heal...

The problem with dragons is their too low touch AC and dexterity. Most of them have a touch AC less than 10. Even if the shivering touch cheese goes, a wraithstrike item and the party's wizard teleporting the fighter nearby allow for the fighter to Power Attack for all his BAB. Now, with a good 4:1 PA that's +120 damage per hit-and all 5 blows will hit resulting in KO.
If that tactic isn't enough, cleric and wizard cast automaxed, splitray Energy Drains. 32 negative levels right after the wizard's quickened disjunction. If they're immune to negative energy, Polar Rays work in the same way and they do enough damage for a KO for anything under 600 HP (maxed, split does 300).


Undead are very succeptible to Disintegrate-a maxed Disintegrate ends up in a KO almost at all times (bad). They are also succeptible to Sunburst-especially the cool vampires you proposed-and disruption. Besides, the cleric could turn them-there is a crapload of feat and item combinations that boost turning. ALOT.


The only thing that combines high HP, immunities, DR, SR and the requisite intelligence and oomph to be a BBEG is an Abomination. But as I said, the existing abominations are laughable in the offence department so I have to customise.


Questions:

Is there a way to negate power attack that doesn't automatically gimp the meeler? For example, the BBEG could disintegrate the attacker's weapon-but that automatically turns the fighter into a sucker. Or, I could cheese out and add a retributive amulet so the fighter ate back half the damage he dished-but that too makes the fighter suck. I simply want to negate power attack, not make the meeler suck outright.

Is there a way to stop celerity being broken without adding a houserule or banning the spell?

[MandibleBones]

Have a cabal of four, a female vampire lord (served by a huge werewolf creature), a construct rebelled from mechanus, a Rakshasa and an advanced bone devil...

An they are looking to capture the book of Zo!

As much as I'd love to run a "We're off to seize the wizard" game, this may not be the best plan.

What about a dragon hatchery? You're looking at multiple dragons and dragonspawn, some of whom are advanced with class levels to the point of being a challenge to the epics. Being intelligent, these dragons bind, hire or enthrall the very best to defend their lair against all comers - perhaps they hire other adventurers of similarly epic stature?

[AKA_Bait]

Undead are very succeptible to Disintegrate-a maxed Disintegrate ends up in a KO almost at all times (bad). They are also succeptible to Sunburst-especially the cool vampires you proposed-and disruption. Besides, the cleric could turn them-there is a crapload of feat and item combinations that boost turning. ALOT.


Just give them an item with Spell Immunity a few times a day in it. Problem Solved, except for the potential of turning it. Unless you expect your Cleric to be specializing in Turning (I've never actually seen one) then I don't really think that's an issue.

Remember, a vampire is going to spend a lot of it's time, probably the first several rounds of combat (not to mention days and weeks proceeding it) messing with their heads and trying to dominate members of the party as well as recruiting other high level minions. The save against which, given a 42 cha (18 to start + 6 as levels go up + 6 from a tome + 8 from vampireness + 4 from eagles splendor, this can go even higher if they are Sorc or Wiz and can Wish their stats up too) would be a 40 (with ability focus and Heighten Spell-Like Ability). Against a foe like this they should be fighting themselves half the time. Prc a little fatespinner, toss a few Walls of Greater Dispel Magic, Glyphs, Minions, and other stuff around to lower their saves and hardcore Vampire should be a challenge and the cleric will be worrying more about avoiding getting killed by his own meatshield than rebuking undead.

As for abberations, I'm not sure. I hardly ever use them. What's wrong with outsiders? A Demon Prince would be a pretty decent foe. There are a few of those in the BovD and elsewhere.

I get the feeling you are looking less for BBEG that can make a really challenging encounter but one that can do so all alone. There are going to be very few like this of any type because WotC tends to design critters to types. The ones that can take a beating rarely are the ones that are running the show.



Is there a way to stop celerity being broken without adding a houserule or banning the spell?

None that I know of.

[Karsh]

Is there a way to negate power attack that doesn't automatically gimp the meeler? For example, the BBEG could disintegrate the attacker's weapon-but that automatically turns the fighter into a sucker. Or, I could cheese out and add a retributive amulet so the fighter ate back half the damage he dished-but that too makes the fighter suck. I simply want to negate power attack, not make the meeler suck outright.

Use the Elusive Target's (CW) Negate Power Attack ability. They take the full penalty to attack (or AC with Shock Trooper), but gain no bonus damage.


I was going to suggest using a Force or Prismatic Dragon, but their abilities are kind of weak in the Juvenile range, which is technically what their CR would be. What about using a Dicefreaks template and having the BBEG be a Primal Vampire or a Lich Lord? It's really easy to get astronomical Turn Resistance with either of those two.

In all honesty, though, a Primal Vampire with Godless effectively nullifies the Cleric because nobody ever thinks to make sure they have an enchanted Holy Symbol, give that vamp Elusive Target to circumvent the fighter's Power Attack, gets its Charisma modifier as bonus HP, in addition to a d12 hit dice, Deflection to AC based off of Charisma, insane stat boosts, DR 25/Epic, Good, and Silver, Fast Healing 30, immunity to light-based damage (or at least destruction by sunlight), a minimum of Turn Resistance +24, and all for +5 CR, so they can still be a 20th level character.

[BisectedBrioche]

What about houseruling in a construct which acts sort of like a mecha. With the BBEG inside controlling it. That way its still a construct but you can have the scheming madman behind it all?

[Psionic Dog]

Why not make the BBEG a roach? As in: not very dangerous (relatively) to the heros, but maddeningly impossible to stomp.

Say, a Paragon Wererat?
Sure a CR 23 L6 Rogue Paragon Wererate has a pathetic 175HP, but does that matter if they can't hit it hard? With only minor magic items the thing has an AC of 50 (touch AC of 40), DR -10/Silver and Epic, and fast healing 20, and evasion combined with a sweet +35 reflex. The SR:32 probably doesn't help any since there seem to be ways to top this without a roll. The one item that is a must have for this is a death ward to stop those pesky level based auto kills. Also, since this thing will be lucky to ever inflict 50+ damage on a the group in any round, there will be no worries of an TPK.

This probably isn't as good as the Primal Vampire build, but I haven't seen many non-undead alternatives suggested.

Also, do they have to know what the BBEG looks like? Stick 7 creatures in the room. I think a CR 24 encounter might have the CR 23 rat, two CR 16 senior advisors, and 4 CR 14 speed bumps. What do the PC's see? 2 Big Nasties (obviously the BBEGs), with 5 lesser minions. With any luck it will take them 2-3 rounds before they realize they were wrong.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

As for abberations, I'm not sure. I hardly ever use them. What's wrong with outsiders? A Demon Prince would be a pretty decent foe. There are a few of those in the BovD and elsewhere.

I get the feeling you are looking less for BBEG that can make a really challenging encounter but one that can do so all alone. There are going to be very few like this of any type because WotC tends to design critters to types. The ones that can take a beating rarely are the ones that are running the show.



Not aberrations-abominations. You know, these guys:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm


And yes, you're right-I'm looking for a single creature for the final fight, not a group.

Elusive target is a really good idea-just looked it up. :smallcool:

Ability Focus, Enchantment Focus, Greater Enchantment Focus, Epic Enchantment Focus give a total bonus DC of +6. Heighten SLA doesn't work on vampire gaze-it is a supernatural ability. The problem is a lowly protection from evil automatically makes them immune-and Mind Blank is even worse. Ofcourse, we always have dispels.

I don't want to use Dicefreaks material for the BBEG since I had to turn down any attempts of the players using such material themselves. It is really good material-but not always balanced.


Hmmm, I'm going to make two attempts at a BBEG: a vampire lord and an abomination. Let's see how they'll turn out. I'll post them at the first post with step by step analysis in later posts-just throw in ideas as I'm making them.


The basics begin from ability scores. Assuming a point-buy of 32 as with my PCs, +5 inherent to everything and level-ups every 4 levels, the racial bonuses from Infernal and the total template bonuses for vampire lord, here are the final stats:

Infernal 40 HD: +32, +18, +18, +16, +14, +12 racial, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 10 base, +5 inherent to all, +3, +3, +3, +1 advancement. Total: 50, 40, 40, 40, 33, 31
This is a downright scary ability score array for the inherented-up, 32 point-buy abomination but ability scores aren't everything. (besides, I've seen CoDZillas at level 20 with 50 strength)

Vampire Lord 24 HD: +6, +4, -, +2, +2, +4 vampire, +6, +4, -, +2, +2, +4 vamp. lord, 14, 14, -, 12, 8, 18 base, +3, +3 advancement, +12 str, +12 cha advanced undead x6, +5 inherent to all. Total: 46 str, 27 dex, - con, 21 int, 17 wis, 46 cha
The vampire lord, with its 24 HD and 6x advanced undead has a much less impressive ability score array. But where it counts-strength and charisma-it matches the abomination quite well. That is why I put the improved undead template there.


A 40 HD abomination with insane stats is only CR 27ish (26 infernal, +1 for PC point-buy instead of monster array, inherent bonuses are part of its "treasure") just like a Great Wurm Gold Dragon is only CR 27ish (and inherented has roughly the same ability scores). This CR estimation is correct-4 ECL 27 PCs should be able to eat even a buffed up infernal or great wurm for breakfast. In reality, the CR of an infernal with these stats is merely pushing CR 25-26.

A level 24 advanced vampire lord is, supposedly, CR 35! (24 class levels, +2 vampire, +3 vamp. lord, +6 advancement) which is, ofcourse, ridiculous. It might have very high strength and charisma plus high fast healing but, at CR 26, it is going to have less levels than the PCs and ridiculously low hit points if not for Unholy Toughness which I'm going to add plus low BAB and not many solid attacks except for its class features. The CR system at its worst-ofcourse, I'm not going to follow the obviously mistaken CR guidelines here. In reality, the CR of a vampire with those abilities is about 25.

Feedback on ability scores?

[Kai-Palin]

If you don't want to give a vamp immunity to light as an arbitrary ability, there are a few items in the Magic Item Compendium that reduce or render immune the wearer to sunlight (Magic Sunglasses, woo!)

Also, for specific weapons, if you want them to have a special weapon, maybe get something out of the Weapons of Legacy book? That way, the PCs get awesome loot, but it gives a coda to the story, where the PCs figure out how it works and redeem it from the evil taint that it obviously developed while used by the BBEG.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

I just noticed that the vampire lord is only weakened by sunlight and isn't affected AT ALL by sunlight spells. Nice. :smallcool:

[Karsh]

Belial, are you not wanting to use Dicefreaks rules for this? Otherwise, the Vampire template that they've got there is probably right down the alley of what you want. The stat boosts are much more impressive, the CR adjustment more realistic, and you don't have to waste feats improving their turn resistance or sunlight invulnerability.

You should at least take a look before you write it off: http://community.dicefreaks.com/viewtopic.php?t=29

[Mewtarthio]

What about houseruling in a construct which acts sort of like a mecha. With the BBEG inside controlling it. That way its still a construct but you can have the scheming madman behind it all?

That'd be the Flesh Colossus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/colossus.htm#fleshColossus). You're supposed to bind a Ghost to it, but you can magic jar yourself into it in a pinch. If the BBEG is a ghost, he can just get himself bound in there (or use Malevolence). It gets the mental stats of whatever spirit posseses it. The downside is that it requires a twenty-ninth-level caster crafter and is CR 27.

[Triaxx]

You might consider the assembly of evil. Instead of creating a single bad guy for them to fight, send them on a series of quests, to hunt down the pieces of a magical armor. At the end of each, they fight a lich. Repeat the lich, but don't let them find the phylactery. If they ask, tell them it's hidden with the final piece of the armor.

As soon as they find said piece, the armor vanishes, only to reappear, around the Lich. The armor is the Phylactery, and in order to destroy the lich, they have to kill him one time for each piece of armor. Have him flee to a new location each time. You can keep them running around the game world for months on end.

Plus the Lich can fetch, or create more minions while waiting for the PC's to show and try to kill him.

[Jack_Simth]

Hmm....

Okay - you take a Gestalt Barbarian//Psion(Telepath)-23 (with some PrC's mixed in - whatever seems good). CR of about 24 or 25 (as Gestalt is a +1/+2 CR ... at least, for what you face).

Now here's the trick - he's got a Wizard cohort, who builds a Stone Golem (and prepares it for the next step). Wizard then uses Stone to Flesh on the golem (negates Magic Immunity), and follows up with Polymorph Any Object, to turn it into something with enough of a mind for the next step (a rat, maybe). Psion then uses True Mind Switch on the "rat" and has the Polymorph Any Object dispelled. True Mind Switch is an Instant spell, and remains (including all of it's effects).

What do you have?

A high HP (BBEG keeps pre-Mind Switch HP), Fort Save (keeps saves from class levels), BAB (from Barbarian), and Int (maintains intelligence) Construct (and everything that comes with that), with Magic Immunity (it's kept, as an Ex special quality) and full Manifesting (casting). Plus a few Slam attacks.

The body consumes a big chunk of the BBEG's wealth (and must be destroyed - can't be captured).

As long as the Wizard Cohort has some way to bypass the golem's Magic Immunity (what was that nifty little little PrC that let you cast a spell as a Supernatural Ability a few times a day?) you can use any golem you like. Go nuts. You get Strength, Dex, Con (of -), size, physical characteristics, natural attacks, natural armor, type, Ex special attacks and special qualities (but not Su, Sp, or Ps) of the golem you choose.

[Psionic Dog]

Ok, so I did a bad job putting the Paragon Wererat together, and Wererats aren't very impressive anyway.

So new solution for avoiding touch attacks: Young Paragon Red Dragon.
CR7 dragon, +1 for a level of cleric (for the luck domain reroll), +2 for 4 L rogue(nonassociated levels), + 15 template = CR 25 BBEG.
(You really want to kill this thing before it reaches maturity)

Paragon Young Red Dragon using {14,16,14,10,14,10} for the base, +1Dex for levels, and +14/0/6/2/2/2 natural modifiers, +15 all template for an end result of {43,32,35,27,31,27} (No magical modifiers included)

18HD, 620HP, 56AC (44 touch), 43SR, -10/epic, +33/33/31 saves, +11 Init.
Abilities: Fast Heal 20, 6d10 breath, evasion, uncanny dodge
Feats: Multiattack + 6 others
Full attack: +57 Bite 2d6+36, (2) +55 Claw 1d8+28, (2) +55 Wing 1d6+28,+55 Tail Slap 1d8 +44
Again, no items have been included, so final stats could be much better

[Katasi]

Here, try one of these:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3220400#post3220400

I suggest the mage, or the killer when i get it finished [it will have rogue levels, and possibly assasin levels]

[Belial_the_Leveler]

My first lasting BBEG is ready in the "Nox" thread. Please give some feedback there. Thanks everyone for their ideas.

[Funkyodor]

If your problem is specific spells, try a rod of absorption put into a shield (no shivering touch, no enervation rays) and then you only have to worry about area of effect spells and non-targeted effects.

If your problem is Disjunction, then at the epic levels, putting a minor artifact that does something with a major side-effect that the BBEG can ignore, like every use of said artifact requires a save vs. finger of death (DC ??) that undead/construct BBEG can ignore, or something similar. This makes it a ~17+ percent chance that the wizard casting disjunction will permenantly lose all casting ability for destruction of the artifact. Harsh penalty, but as long as you hint about it out of character, he gets what he deserves and will hold off on your baddies for fear (hopefully). Cursed items are great for Baddies too.

[ShiningTed]

To buff NPCs without giving them magic items to be looted, may I suggest magic tattoos? They can be honed as desired and add a very cool effect to the NPC: spend 5 minutes describing the glowing, slithering designs moving over the NPC's flesh and the party will be impressed and ready for anything.

[BisectedBrioche]

That'd be the Flesh Colossus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/colossus.htm#fleshColossus). You're supposed to bind a Ghost to it, but you can magic jar yourself into it in a pinch. If the BBEG is a ghost, he can just get himself bound in there (or use Malevolence). It gets the mental stats of whatever spirit posseses it. The downside is that it requires a twenty-ninth-level caster crafter and is CR 27.

What I meant is more along the lines of an Apparatus of the Crab (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#apparatusoftheCrab). The BBEG simply get's inside and controls it rather than binds his soul to it.

[Jack_Simth]

What I meant is more along the lines of an Apparatus of the Crab (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#apparatusoftheCrab). The BBEG simply get's inside and controls it rather than binds his soul to it.

If you've got a ghost BBEG, he's not bound to it. Malevolence is a Magic Jar effect, and does the job quite handily. The Ghost Sorcerer is basically just controlling it. Any attacks take down the Colossus, not the ghost. Afterwards, if the Ghost simply retreats into the ground they get.... a stinking mass of dead flesh. And the Ghost can arrange for another such.