The Whitescourge

[SunderedWorldDM]

The Whitescourge is a submission to the 5e Base Class Contest (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?570496-D-amp-D-5e-Base-Class-Contest-IV-Does-Not-Meet-Expectations). It's a character who has found a connection to the Positive Energy Plane, and uses that connection to great effect, but at the cost of their own life force.

The Whitescourge (google doc) (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1kd7NYNUN2s4zBvMLshBPEICK9Yg0s7UdzldL-iB2ZNg/edit?usp=sharing)

I'd just like some feedback on balance, thematicism, anything you can see that might be problematic, or just any way to make this class the best it can be. Thanks for your help!

[SunderedWorldDM]

I'm dredging up this old thread because I'm going to have someone playtest this calss and it is currently mechanical hot garbage. PEACH me as hard as you can.

So this class needs a lot of work to make it balanced and appealing. I'll start off by making a list of what I like, what I don't like, and what I think needs to be changed right off the bat.

PROS:
Flavor. I like the flavor as it is.
There's a few ribbons and abilities I think are okay as they are throughout, and others I think only need a bit of modification.
I like having Spellcasting like it is, but I need to tone down the HP drain for it to work effectively...
CONS:
Too many HP!
Nobody wants to cast spells.
Subclasses are mediocre- they could be more flavorful and more interesting.
There's a gap for an ability that damages both yourself and an enemy that isn't spellcasting, and I feel that could enhance the theme of the class.
A lot of cool abilities are clustered around a higher level, and I think with some rebalance they could be spread out.
WHAT MUST CHANGE:
Spellcasting. Nobody wants to cast spells.
Make players feel like they can use HP for abilities without giving them more HP than a barbarian.
Subclasses need to be balanced tighter. (In addition, with some modification, I could see some of the current subclass features being added into the main class.)

So that's what needs to change. Anything besides that that's just utterly ludicrous?

[JNAProductions]

Okay, first thought is this:

Warding Bond. But more than that! Allow a Whitescourge to act as a communal pool for HP for the entire party, distributing it as needed.

Obviously simply pooling everyone's HP would be overpowered, so maybe cap it at half? But some ideas with that is the ability to borrow HP from healthier or safer members to provide small amounts of healing and large amounts of THP to party members in danger.

[SunderedWorldDM]

Okay, first thought is this:

Warding Bond. But more than that! Allow a Whitescourge to act as a communal pool for HP for the entire party, distributing it as needed.

Obviously simply pooling everyone's HP would be overpowered, so maybe cap it at half? But some ideas with that is the ability to borrow HP from healthier or safer members to provide small amounts of healing and large amounts of THP to party members in danger.

I've tried something like that with the Woundknitter. It did not go over well. Should I add it to the main body of the class?

[JNAProductions]

I'm thinking a more constant thing. Something like...


Life Bond
A Whitescourge has an innate bond to the lives of those they hold dear to them. Over the course of a short or long rest, a Whitescourge can bind themselves to a number of people equal to their proficiency bonus. While bound and within 120', the Whitescourge can use a bonus action to transfer a number of HP equal to their [MENTAL STAT] modifier times their proficiency bonus from one member (including themselves) to any other. As an action, they can transfer up to double this amount.

When transferring HP, anything in excess of their proficiency bonus is instead gained as THP.

This allows for, out of combat, careful control of HP of all party members (at least for small parties, given that prof bonus is only +2 at level 1 till 4).
In-combat, it allows for both smaller management (transferring a few HP as a bonus action) and emergency boosts (transfer a lot from the hale and hearty barbarian to the spindly Wizard, giving them a nice THP pool).

[SunderedWorldDM]

I'm thinking a more constant thing. Something like...



This allows for, out of combat, careful control of HP of all party members (at least for small parties, given that prof bonus is only +2 at level 1 till 4).
In-combat, it allows for both smaller management (transferring a few HP as a bonus action) and emergency boosts (transfer a lot from the hale and hearty barbarian to the spindly Wizard, giving them a nice THP pool).

Alright. I'll consider it, and I'll probably modify it a bit, but I like the concept of manipulating hit points to simulate healing with a drawback. I think the restrictions are a bit too specific, so I'l loosen it up a bit, but this would make a nice mid-level ability.

Alright, so there's that. Right now my concern is more on how do I make spellcasting appealing without affecting the flavor, as that's pretty central to the class and I like how it is, but nobody would use it in its current state.

[JNAProductions]

Why do you feel the need to give them weird spellcasting?

Normal spellcasting works fine.

[SunderedWorldDM]

Why do you feel the need to give them weird spellcasting?

Normal spellcasting works fine.

Various reasons. One, it thematically fits. The more powerful the spell you're casting, the more you hurt yourself, and the less able to recover you are after a rest. Two, it's unique, and I like how it doesn't have a giant boring spell table and instead relies on a much more versatile and flexible casting system.

Now that I type this, I'm considering instead of using HD expenditures (which I still like, but I think could be used better elsewhere), I could use something like the Spell Point system in the DMG, with a bit of an HP spent = spell point conversion (probably modified a bit). Still fits, still simple, but has significantly less resource loss and more appealing.

[MoleMage]

Various reasons. One, it thematically fits. The more powerful the spell you're casting, the more you hurt yourself, and the less able to recover you are after a rest. Two, it's unique, and I like how it doesn't have a giant boring spell table and instead relies on a much more versatile and flexible casting system.

Now that I type this, I'm considering instead of using HD expenditures (which I still like, but I think could be used better elsewhere), I could use something like the Spell Point system in the DMG, with a bit of an HP spent = spell point conversion (probably modified a bit). Still fits, still simple, but has significantly less resource loss and more appealing.

I had thought the HP balance looked not terribly out of line originally but I guess practice is better than theory for that.

If you're going to do a unique spellcasting mechanic, why not go whole hog and do unique spells? You could do a special mechanic maybe modeled off of the Mystic.

I think there are three major things that the spellcasting mechanic of your contest-complete submission had that probably contributed to players not feeling like spending HP even if it was roughly balanced in theory.


Your spellcasting required the loss of two resources instead of one. You lost HD, then you lost HP. Moreover, both resources are important to not dying.
Your spellcasting didn't have consistent, predictable costs (other than ritual casting). Since you rolled HD to determine how much you got hurt when casting, players could never be sure how much HP they would lose right now.
5e spells are balanced around spell slot casting. A lot of them come out behind on value after you factor in the HP loss you have to submit yourself to to cast them. For example, when you cast Cure Wounds, you only come out ahead by your spellcasting ability modifier, which isn't even enough to guarantee that you've restored more hit points than you've lost.


Allow the Whitescourge to upcast more cheaply. If their Whitescourge spellcasting is always +1 spell level, they have a unique niche that compensates for the poor return they would normally face for their investment. If you go this route, you can even leave the dual resource function in. This turns Cure Wounds (Whitescourge) from "lose 1d8 HP to grant 1d8+Con HP" to "lose 1d8 HP to grant 2d8+Con HP" and gives them a unique reason to want to cast their spells this way. I would still keep the cap on how many HD you can spend at once.



First, remove HD expenditure from spellcasting. Likewise remove features designed to compensate for spending HD to cast. Straight HP costs make the class easier to track and the average numbers remain the same.
Second, make the HP costs consistent. You know what you're going to get for every point of HP you expend.
Third, give your Scourges something nicer than spells, to compensate for the HP loss they suffer to use them. Play with it a bit. Allow expending more HP to modify their spells. You can work the variation back in here as an optional add-on.



Mock-up below.



Scourges: Whitescourges are beings of painfully intense radiant magic, and with training, they can learn to channel that magic into a variety of effects called Scourges. Scourges work in much the same way as spells do. If a Scourge requires concentration, the Whitescourge cannot also concentrate on a spell, and vice versa. Your Scourge ability score is Constitution. Whenever a Scourge refers to your ability score, this is what it means. In addition, you use your Constitution modifier when setting the saving throw DC for a Scourge that you cast and when making an attack roll with one.

Scourges and Spells: Scourges interact with spellcasting as if they were spells. The scourge will specify its effective spell level in the description.

Scourges Readied: You can have a number of Scourges readied at one time equal to your Constitution modifier. Due to the innate nature of Scourges, you can change which Scourges you have readied whenever you complete a long rest.
You can ready an additional Scourge at level 8 and another at level 14.

Casting a Scourge: In order to cast a Scourge, you must sacrifice some of your hit points. The number of hit points you must sacrifice is indicated in the description of the Scourge. Hit points sacrificed in this way are lost as if the caster is taking necrotic damage, as their life force fuels the magic. You cannot knowingly spend more HP than you have to cast a Scourge.

Enhancing a Scourge: Many Scourges allow you to improve their effect by sacrificing additional hit points. Unless otherwise noted, you must choose whether to sacrifice these additional hit points when you first cast the Scourge. Some enhancements require you to roll to determine how much HP you lose. You may use those enhancements so long as you could survive the minimum result, but if you are knocked unconscious by taking damage in this way, you immediately fail a death saving throw.



Sample Scourge: Lifeknitting
1st level scourge
Cost: 4 HP
Casting Time: 1 action

You sacrifice some of your life energy to restore health to your allies. Choose two allies within 5 feet of you. They each gain 1d8 hit points plus your Scourge ability modifier. You gain temporary hit points equal to half of the HP expended to cast this Scourge (including enhancements).

Enhancement: You can spend 2 additional hit points to affect an extra target.
Enhancement: You can spend 4 additional hit points to increase the healing of this Scourge by 1d8.
Enhancement: You can spend 1 additional hit point to target a single creature an additional time with this scourge. They only gain your Scourge ability modifier once, regardless of how many times they are targeted.
Enhancement: If you spend 8 or more total hit points on this Scourge, the range increases to 30 feet.


Sample Scourge: Blistering Arc
1st level scourge
Cost: 3 HP
Casting Time: 1 action

You unleash a wave of searing radiant energy. Each creature in a 15 foot cone centered on you must make a Dexterity save. On a failed save, they take 2d6 fire damage and 2d6 radiant damage. On a successful save, they only take the radiant damage.

Enhancement: You can spend 1d8 additional hit points to increase both the fire and the radiant damage by an equal amount. You can do this any number of times, but if you are knocked out by this additional damage, you immediately fail a death saving throw.
Enhancement: You can spend 1 additional hit point to negate the radiant damage for one target.
Enhancement: You can spend 3 additional hit points to increase the damage of both portions by 1d6.



EDIT: My drastic solution, it should be stressed, is drastic. It requires implementing a new mechanic. Personally I love designing new mechanics (see my last two class contest entries), but there's a lot to be said for using existing mechanics. Your spell point system with HP-spell point conversion would be much cleaner as a solution than either of my suggestions above.

[SunderedWorldDM]

I had thought the HP balance looked not terribly out of line originally but I guess practice is better than theory for that.

If you're going to do a unique spellcasting mechanic, why not go whole hog and do unique spells? You could do a special mechanic maybe modeled off of the Mystic.

I think there are three major things that the spellcasting mechanic of your contest-complete submission had that probably contributed to players not feeling like spending HP even if it was roughly balanced in theory.


Your spellcasting required the loss of two resources instead of one. You lost HD, then you lost HP. Moreover, both resources are important to not dying.
Your spellcasting didn't have consistent, predictable costs (other than ritual casting). Since you rolled HD to determine how much you got hurt when casting, players could never be sure how much HP they would lose right now.
5e spells are balanced around spell slot casting. A lot of them come out behind on value after you factor in the HP loss you have to submit yourself to to cast them. For example, when you cast Cure Wounds, you only come out ahead by your spellcasting ability modifier, which isn't even enough to guarantee that you've restored more hit points than you've lost.


Allow the Whitescourge to upcast more cheaply. If their Whitescourge spellcasting is always +1 spell level, they have a unique niche that compensates for the poor return they would normally face for their investment. If you go this route, you can even leave the dual resource function in. This turns Cure Wounds (Whitescourge) from "lose 1d8 HP to grant 1d8+Con HP" to "lose 1d8 HP to grant 2d8+Con HP" and gives them a unique reason to want to cast their spells this way. I would still keep the cap on how many HD you can spend at once.



First, remove HD expenditure from spellcasting. Likewise remove features designed to compensate for spending HD to cast. Straight HP costs make the class easier to track and the average numbers remain the same.
Second, make the HP costs consistent. You know what you're going to get for every point of HP you expend.
Third, give your Scourges something nicer than spells, to compensate for the HP loss they suffer to use them. Play with it a bit. Allow expending more HP to modify their spells. You can work the variation back in here as an optional add-on.



Mock-up below.



Scourges: Whitescourges are beings of painfully intense radiant magic, and with training, they can learn to channel that magic into a variety of effects called Scourges. Scourges work in much the same way as spells do. If a Scourge requires concentration, the Whitescourge cannot also concentrate on a spell, and vice versa. Your Scourge ability score is Constitution. Whenever a Scourge refers to your ability score, this is what it means. In addition, you use your Constitution modifier when setting the saving throw DC for a Scourge that you cast and when making an attack roll with one.

Scourges and Spells: Scourges interact with spellcasting as if they were spells. The scourge will specify its effective spell level in the description.

Scourges Readied: You can have a number of Scourges readied at one time equal to your Constitution modifier. Due to the innate nature of Scourges, you can change which Scourges you have readied whenever you complete a long rest.
You can ready an additional Scourge at level 8 and another at level 14.

Casting a Scourge: In order to cast a Scourge, you must sacrifice some of your hit points. The number of hit points you must sacrifice is indicated in the description of the Scourge. Hit points sacrificed in this way are lost as if the caster is taking necrotic damage, as their life force fuels the magic. You cannot knowingly spend more HP than you have to cast a Scourge.

Enhancing a Scourge: Many Scourges allow you to improve their effect by sacrificing additional hit points. Unless otherwise noted, you must choose whether to sacrifice these additional hit points when you first cast the Scourge. Some enhancements require you to roll to determine how much HP you lose. You may use those enhancements so long as you could survive the minimum result, but if you are knocked unconscious by taking damage in this way, you immediately fail a death saving throw.








EDIT: My drastic solution, it should be stressed, is drastic. It requires implementing a new mechanic. Personally I love designing new mechanics (see my last two class contest entries), but there's a lot to be said for using existing mechanics. Your spell point system with HP-spell point conversion would be much cleaner as a solution than either of my suggestions above.

I'm gonna be honest, I like both, but without a major overhaul that I might do at a later point for kicks, the conservative solution is the route to go. So when the voting ends, I'll add in that when you cast a spell, the level it is cast at is equal to the number of hit dice you spend (min 1)+1. This might make it more appealing.

[SunderedWorldDM]

Hello all! I'm back. After securing 2nd place in the class contest (!) this was entered in, I am now free to amend the Whitescourge. So expect a Warding Bond and spellcasting addendum soon, and if anyone else has an idea on how to make this class better, hit me with your best shot!