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balmz
2018-10-30, 12:36 PM
I made a fighter rework that I hope is much better then vanilla, it takes the best aspects of the class from different additions and adds some new features



I was hoping for feedback and advice on this rework

Playing a Fighter
Fighters are often seen as pretty weak in comparison to other classes such as psionic and magic users. This seeks to transform the class into one that can compete and not be useless at high levels. This is a class that can take abuse, deal it and know how to deal it well.



Making a Fighter
Alignment: Any.

Starting Age: Moderate.

Starting Gold: 6d6 x 10 gp (210 gp).

Race Any


Table: The Fighter
Hit Die: d12

Level Base
Attack Bonus Saving Throws Special
Fort Ref Will
1st +1 +2 +0 +0 Bonus Feat, Extra feat
2nd +2 +3 +0 +0 Bonus Feat, Penetrating Insight
3rd +3 +3 +1 +1 Bonus Feat, Battle Hardened
4th +4 +4 +1 +1 Bonus Feat. Bonus Damage
5th +5 +4 +1 +1 Bonus Feat, Penetrating Insight
6th +6/+1 +5 +2 +2 Bonus Feat, Second Wind
7th +7/+2 +5 +2 +2 Bonus Feat, Battle Hardened
8th +8/+3 +6 +2 +2 Bonus Feat, Bonus Damage
9th +9/+4 +6 +3 +3 Bonus Feat, Shrug It Off
10th +10/+5 +7 +3 +3 Bonus Feat, Battle Hardened
11th +11/+6/+1 +7 +3 +3 Bonus Feat, Second Wind
12th +12/+7/+2 +8 +4 +4 Bonus Feat, Bonus Damage
13th +13/+8/+3 +8 +4 +4 Bonus Feat, Penetrating Insight
14th +14/+9/+4 +9 +4 +4 Bonus Feat, Battle Hardened
15th +15/+10/+5 +9 +5 +5 Bonus Feat, Strong March
16th +16/+11/+6/+1 +10 +5 +5 Bonus Feat, Bonus Damage
17th +17/+12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +5, Bonus Feat, Second Wind,Battle Hardened
18th +18/+13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +6 Bonus Feat, Shrug It Off
19th +19/+14/+9/+4 +11 +7 +6 Bonus Feat, Penetrating Insight
20th +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +9 +6 Bonus Feat, Battle Hardened, Bonus Damage
Class Skills (3 + Int modifier per level, 4 at 1st level)
Appraise (Int), Balance, Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy, Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information Handle Animal (Cha),Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str),Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Search (Int),Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Tumble (Dex), Swim (Str),Use Rope (Dex) .

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the fighter.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A fighter is proficient with all simple, allmartial weapons, three exotic weapons of their choice, and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (including tower shields).

Bonus Feats: At 1st level, a fighter gets 2 bonus combat-oriented feats in addition to the feat that any 1st-level character gets and the bonus feat granted to a human character. The fighter gains an additional bonus feat at every fighter level. These bonus feats must be drawn from the feats noted as fighter bonus feats. A fighter must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums.

These bonus feats are in addition to the feat that a character of any class gets from advancing levels. A fighter is not limited to the list of fighter bonus feats when choosing these feats.


Uncapped Attack Unlike most classes, a fighter does not have an upper limit on BAB. So a fighter with 16+ BAB could have 5 or more attacks per round with high enough BAB.

Stack Master Bonuses to attack, damage, saves, skill checks, attributes and attribute checks, armor and dodge always stack for a fighter even if they don't for other classes or otherwise.

Battle Hardened At levels 3, 7, 10, 14, 17 the fighter gains a 1+ bonus against mind affecting effects and 2+ against morale effects that stacks. At level 20 they can take 15 against an effect even if threatened or distracted.

Bonus Damage At levels 4,8,12,16,20 The fighter gains with all their attacks an additional 3d4 to all their damage rolls.

Shrug It Off At level 9 a fighter may a number of times equal to their constitution modifier negate the following conditions if they are affected by them, sickened, nauseated, fatigued(not from lack of rest), dazed, shaken, ability damaged, dazzled, at level 18 they may negate frightened, panicked, disabled( but this doesn't heal the fighter), ability drain, exhausted(not from lack of rest), paralyzed, stunned and confused. They can use this ability as a free action even if the condition doesn't usually allow this.

Second Wind At level 6 the fighter may as a free action recover 3d4 + the fighter's class level + constitution modifier hp once day, at level 11 they may do it twice a day and 17 three times.

Penetrating Insight At level 2, 5, 13 and 19 the fighter gains a 2 + on attacks to ignore armor class provided by natural armor, equipment armor, magic based armor .

Strong March At level 15 the fighter may move at normal speed while in medium, heavy armor or carrying a medium load. They may move when carrying a heavy load as if it were a medium load.

Combat Learning A fighter who witnesses a fighter, general feat that is not magic or psionic based or combat feat in combat or experiences it in combat can attempt to learn the feat. The rules for this are demonstrated in this example.

A fighter who saw a foe or other character/npc use sharp-shooting in combat but does not know it can attempt to learn the feat in a week long process. A number of factors affect the learning process, how many related feats the fighter knows, the intelligence level of the fighter and attributive modifier related to the feat. If the fighter knew precise shot, point blank shot, rapid shot, they would gain a bonus to attempt to learn sharp shooting. Next if the fighter also had 14 dexterity which is associated with range they gain a bonus, additionally their intelligence modifier adds to the attempt, finally the number of times they have witnessed or experienced the feat affects the chances. The formula and DC for learning a new feat is as follows:

A intelligence check that is DC 25 - fighter's intelligence modifier -the number of related feats - the fighter's most appropriate attribute for the feat.

So a fighter who wanted to learn sharp shooting who had 11 intelligence, knew the three feats, had 14 dexterity and saw sharp shooting being used three times would at the end of a week of training make a DC 17 Intelligence check to learn sharp shooting. If they pass it they learn the feat. This does not interfere with the bonus feats the fighter already gets or learns as they level up. If they fail they may attempt to learn it again after another week of training. The fighter may not take 10, 15 or 20 on the check.

A fighter must still meet BAB and attributive requirements to learn the feat.

A friendly character may assist the fighter in learning a feat, in this case add that character's intelligence modifier to subtract from the DC of learning a new feat

nonsi
2018-10-30, 02:02 PM
.

1. You really need to put some formatting effort here. Going through your post is no fun.
2. Class skills: Nobody uses odd numbers for accumulated skill points. Use even numbers.
3. Uncapped Attack, Stack Master and Combat Learning are partial, vague and incoherent. And they're not indicated in the table. Combat Learning should detail a simple formula, not a mountain of text.
4. Battle Hardened should specify level 20 for the bonuses or give some indication in the table that it works differently. Also, taking 10 (or 15 or 20) on saves is something I haven't seen before.
5. Bonus Damage is really unnecessary. The amount is ridiculously high and more dice rolls slow down the game.
6. Shrug It Off: I assume the number of uses is daily, right?
7. Strong March: armor alleviation comes way too late. The Knight gets it at levels 4 (medium) and 9 (heavy)


Your Fighter fix definitely exceeds the core Fighter in numbers, but that's not the core Fighter's weakness.

Your Fighter get next to nothing to assist its mobility. Strong March is a start, but it's too little too late.
Your Fighter doesn't get any features that improve its action economy. It still doesn't do anything with swift/immediate actions.
Your Fighter doesn't get any features that impose conditions...... but more feats probably mean more opportunities for taking Weapon Style feats (Complete Warrior, p.112), which is at least something.
Your Fighter's build versatility ends with feats, which is not a significant improvement over the core Fighter.

King of Nowhere
2018-10-30, 02:28 PM
on a less harsh note, the problem of the fighter is not that it doesn't deal enough damage, but that it lacks versatility. Giving it more damage means it's too powerful when hitting things, while still not being satisfactorily versatile. It still can't fix any problem that can't be fixed by beating it with a stick.

Also, all the people compplaining about the disparity among classses are mostly overstating the problem. In actual tabletop experience, it's no big deal, either by virtue of actual gaming being at lower optimization, or by the gentlemen agreement to let everyone have their role.

Actually, your fighter rework could make sense in a high-optimization combat-oriented game, with everyone else taking high-tier spellcasters; you could probably play this guy at that table. At a normal table, you'd break combat, and then you'd sit on your thumbs all the rest of the time.

Alabenson
2018-10-30, 02:28 PM
Unfortunately I pretty much have to echo nonsi's assessment of your fighter fix. It gets bigger numbers, but that's never been the fighter's problem. A fighter fix needs to address two main problems; 1) The fighter needs options to contribute in non-combat situations. 2) The fighter needs level-appropriate combat options for the mid-to-high levels (9-20) as existing feats are geared for the lower levels.

FlameUser64
2018-10-30, 04:25 PM
.

1. You really need to put some formatting effort here. Going through your post is no fun.
2. Class skills: Nobody uses odd numbers for accumulated skill points. Use even numbers.
3. Uncapped Attack, Stack Master and Combat Learning are partial, vague and incoherent. And they're not indicated in the table. Combat Learning should detail a simple formula, not a mountain of text.
4. Battle Hardened should specify level 20 for the bonuses or give some indication in the table that it works differently. Also, taking 10 (or 15 or 20) on saves is something I haven't seen before.
5. Bonus Damage is really unnecessary. The amount is ridiculously high and more dice rolls slow down the game.
6. Shrug It Off: I assume the number of uses is daily, right?
7. Strong March: armor alleviation comes way too late. The Knight gets it at levels 4 (medium) and 9 (heavy)


Your Fighter fix definitely exceeds the core Fighter in numbers, but that's not the core Fighter's weakness.

Your Fighter get next to nothing to assist its mobility. Strong March is a start, but it's too little too late.
Your Fighter doesn't get any features that improve its action economy. It still doesn't do anything with swift/immediate actions.
Your Fighter doesn't get any features that impose conditions...... but more feats probably mean more opportunities for taking Weapon Style feats (Complete Warrior, p.112), which is at least something.
Your Fighter's build versatility ends with feats, which is not a significant improvement over the core Fighter.
Stack Master's intended effect seems to be to make bonuses of the same type stack. Notable effects of this:
Magic weapons give an extra +1 to attack rolls, due to also being masterwork. A Magic Weapon or Greater Magic Weapon spell stacks with any preexisting enhancement bonus on weapons wielded by the fighter.
The fighter can use bracers of armour in conjunction with real armour and with being the recipient of the Mage Armour spell for inexpensive AC boosts. In addition, the Magic Vestment spell stacks with any preexisting enhancement bonus on his armour.
The fighter can use an amulet of natural armour in conjunction with being the recipient of a Barkskin spell for further inexpensive AC boosts.
The fighter can use a ring of protection in conjunction with feats or class features or received buffs (such as Shield of Faith) that grant a deflection bonus to AC for yet more inexpensive AC boosts.
The fighter can dual-wield shields, gaining the shield bonus to AC from each of them. This increases his potential for cheap AC boosts even further.
Stat-boosting wondrous items (gloves of dexterity, amulet of health, etc.) stack with their associated buff spells (Cat's Grace, Bear's Endurance, etc.). This also allows the stacking of gloves of ogre power with a belt of giant strength, and I'm certain there are other such shenanigans to be had. (And of course you can then add Bull's Strength on top of the effects of those two wondrous items.)
Any feats or the like that grant bonuses that explicitly do not stack with bonuses from certain other feats do, in fact, stack.

In other words, Stack Master completely breaks the game's math wide open, just in case it wasn't already.

Goaty14
2018-10-30, 09:43 PM
In other words, Stack Master completely breaks the game's math wide open, just in case it wasn't already.

So what I'm seeing here is that the "fix" soley exists to turn the DM's hair white while completely avoiding the problems the fighter does have.

If I'm reading it right, Stack Master is granted at level 1, which takes fighter, a "dip" class, and makes it fighter... a "dip" class. Nothing has changed.

FlameUser64
2018-10-31, 01:03 AM
So what I'm seeing here is that the "fix" soley exists to turn the DM's hair white while completely avoiding the problems the fighter does have.

If I'm reading it right, Stack Master is granted at level 1, which takes fighter, a "dip" class, and makes it fighter... a "dip" class. Nothing has changed.

May as well stick it out to 2nd level at least for that delicious +2 to attack rolls from Penetrating Insight. And hey, if you go all the way to 5th, you have +4 from PI rather than just +2, and also have +3d4 on all damage rolls, and have +1 on saves against mind-affecting effects along with an irrelevant +2 against morale effects that stacks with it.

rferries
2018-11-01, 12:40 AM
I'll echo what has been said here about granting the fighter useful non-combat abilities too. Give them the ability to teleport, heal, perform divinations etc - even if you reflavour those abilities in nonmagical ways.

khadgar567
2018-11-01, 05:15 AM
actualy you gott few solid ideas i think 3+ int skills come from experimental turf of pathfinder 2e. uncapped attack makes fighter throw ridiculous number of strikes which funnly not its main problem here as others shared fighter needs skills to pay the bills while to much bonus feats kinda solves the problem its not solid answer other wise class feels on ressident problem of every fighter fix currently on internet.

Goaty14
2018-11-01, 10:40 AM
May as well stick it out to 2nd level at least for that delicious +2 to attack rolls from Penetrating Insight. And hey, if you go all the way to 5th, you have +4 from PI rather than just +2, and also have +3d4 on all damage rolls, and have +1 on saves against mind-affecting effects along with an irrelevant +2 against morale effects that stacks with it.
--OR--

You could take a 1 level dip into fighter and then start taking levels in a real class, like...
-Warblade
-Bard
-Beguiler
-Warmage
-Favored Soul
-Barbarian
-etc

If all you can do is hit things and kill them, then you've failed.

jqavins
2018-11-01, 12:01 PM
Without piling on details, yeah, you've turned a competent damage dealer into an unstoppable killing machine, but done nothing else. If the fighter needs help to keep up with damage dished by others in combat then some of this will help, some seems rather extreme, but the whole package is undoubtably over the top. On the other hand...

on a less harsh note, the problem of the fighter is not that it doesn't deal enough damage, but that it lacks versatility. Giving it more damage means it's too powerful when hitting things, while still not being satisfactorily versatile...The best way to address this is in the design of adventures. Fighters can be every bit as good as anyone else at being smart, interacting with NPCs, etc. In a game where that stuff is as important or more than combat and spell casting, the fighter's deficiency is minimized. More skill points and more class skills also helps here.

Also, all the people compplaining about the disparity among classses are mostly overstating the problem. In actual tabletop experience, it's no big deal, either by virtue of actual gaming being at lower optimization, or by the gentlemen agreement to let everyone have their role.And this.