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Kioran
2007-09-19, 07:16 AM
Hi!

I have a question for all of you versed a little in Game Development, and specifically, D20-Sys. For one of my potential Fighter Fixes, Iīve advocated giving the Fighter additional HD as a power-up. I imagined it would work akin to giants or elemental, who have a lot of HD for their CR mainly because these additional HD wouldnīt make them more dangerous than a suite of class Features or special attacks would make them.
Many found this potentially Game-breaking or distasteful. The question is, what makes it so? And can additional HD be balanced, or should I scrap the Idea alltogether?

So letīs have a look at what additional HD actually do:

1) Additional BAB (could be countered with weak BAB per HD, but still)
2) better Saves (practically unavoidable. Even poor saves are 1/3, so at level 12, double HD catch up and begin to pull ahead)
3) higher ECL (should be handled with an exception, since itīs problematic)
4) higher Skill limits (definitely broken if possible, should also be handled with and exception)
5) early qualification for Epic Feats (broken. Needs an exception)
6) additional Feats (powerful, but depends on class. For non-spellcasters, this might work)
7) additional Ability increases (weak. Seriosly, even 5 additional Ability increases wonīt matter as much as your WBL, not by a far shot. But again, could be exploited by a caster for ultimate DCs from hell)
8) More skill ranks (independent of maximun skill ranks, you can take more ranks overall. Also amplifies Intelligence bonus to skill ranks/lvl)
9) More HP (potentially at least. Strongly amplifies Con bonus to HP/lvl)

Anything Iīve missed? What bugs you the most, and why?

May evaluation of the situation:
- too powerful as a passive half in Gestalt - non-Gestaltable, breaks the game easily otherwise
- 1, 3, 4 and 5 are easily the most breakable ones, and should be handled accordingly. Seriously, if not, you could smell potential cheese from miles away
- 3, 6 and 7 are okay by me. Additional HD would be for non-casters anyway, and they donīt profit as much from Feats or their abilities(no Caster stat), and actually need their Saves in lieu of magical protection
- 8 and 9 are not only okay in my eyes, but flavorful: Your Wizard buddy might have Talent(high Int.) and a robust health(high Con.), but he never thought of apllying it to worldly tasks and excercise, thus never reaping the full benefit. Seriously, near-epic or epic play makes the Wizard secondary skill monkey by accident, on top of actual utility spells. He also has more HP than a Rogue or Monk is bound to have, since he only needy few magic items and can splurge for anything increasing Con or HP.

Anyway, whatīs your impression or take on the situation?

leperkhaun
2007-09-19, 07:35 AM
might as well just say fighters can be level 10 while your casters can only be level 5.

Kioran
2007-09-19, 08:27 AM
might as well just say fighters can be level 10 while your casters can only be level 5.

Essentially, yes. Since classes with poor or no class Features are inferior by far, Additional HD might be another way to catch up. But Iīd nerf the HD (no good saves if you already get additional HD, weaker BAB) and make additional HD available to more than one class. Still, couldnīt there be a balance on a HD vs. Class Feature tradeoff?

It exists for CR, though it isnīt perfect.

Person_Man
2007-09-19, 09:24 AM
I'm not a fan of your idea. Adding hit dice just screws with too many base mechanics at once.

There are plenty of much simpler Fighter fixes out there. And you don't really have to make new rules in order to use them.

The Dungeoncrasher ability from Dungeonscape gives them a huge potential damage output at level 6. If you're a Goliath with the Knockback feat (Races of Stone), you're pretty much better off then every other slayer at that level.

The Overpowering Attack option from the PHBII, when combined with Karmic Strike, Robilar's Gambit, and Double Hit (Miniature's Handbook) gives you a huge combo. Enemy hits you once, you hit the enemy back 4 times, and each attack does double damage.

The Skilled City Dweller option from Cityscape allows you to replace Ride with Tumble and Handle Animal for Gather Information, making your skill list slightly more useful (assuming you don't want to be a mounted combat build).

The Zhentarim Soldier (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a) option gives you some free extras on your dead levels.


Also, there are some straitforward house rules that you could use.

For example, the rumor is that in 4th ed, player will start with (HD*3)+Con bonus hit points. That means a Fighter with 18 Con will start with 34 hit points, and a Wizard will start with just 16. I think that its a fair fix to apply to 3.5 as well.

And the Fighter is the only base class to get Tower Shield proficiency. I see no problem with giving them no penalty to using it as well.

Hope this helps.

Riffington
2007-09-19, 09:30 AM
If you want to add some of those things, add just what you want.
For example, if every "dead level" in Fighter you got to choose from a limited set of those abilities (+1 Heroism bonus to one save of your choice, or + [Con Bonus] HP, or + [Int Bonus] skill points... that would not break the game.

Kioran
2007-09-19, 10:54 AM
If you want to add some of those things, add just what you want.
For example, if every "dead level" in Fighter you got to choose from a limited set of those abilities (+1 Heroism bonus to one save of your choice, or + [Con Bonus] HP, or + [Int Bonus] skill points... that would not break the game.

Thereīa point to be had there, but - I think itīs actually easier to introduce a Bonus HD mechanic, where Bonus HD follow some specific rules (no ECL increases, no increase to max ranks in skills, no increase to DCs based if HD and no earlier wualification for Epic Feats).
Do such Bonus HD break the game? Iīd like to make a simple comparison to test that. Iīd need one or two volunteers to make builds. All these Characters are humans with 32 point buy:

1) A Character with 40 Commoner HD, max skill 23 ranks, No epic feats, but 10 Ability increases and 13 Feats. Sources: Core, PHB 2 and Complete Warrior, Divine, Arcane and Adventurer, Except for Shock Trooper/Leap Attack
2) A lvl 20 Martial class Character, based on all WotC Splatbooks out there except for ToB
3) A lvl 20 Warblade, using Stone Dragon, Iron Heart and Diamond mind. Sources: Same as 1, and, of course, the ToB

We could directly compare these builds in terms of Damage Output, survivability and versatility. I donīt think option 1 is overpowered, but prove me wrong.......

TomTheRat
2007-09-19, 11:13 AM
All the extra hps in the world won't change the fact that a straight up, untwinked fighter contributes 1/10th what a full caster does after level 10.

Keld Denar
2007-09-19, 11:22 AM
Another problem with bonus hit dice is a lot of spells and effects affect targets based either on their hit dice, or the delta between the effect origionator and the target. Spells like sleep, color spray, hypnotic patern, holy word (and family), and cloud kill, just to name a couple off the top of my head. To make one of these affects that would challenge him would completely destroy the rest of the party. It just doesn't scale properly with these effects.

Also, Leadership is affected by hit dice, not ECL, so a 6th level fighter (12 HD) could have up to a 10 HD cohort. His cohort would be 4 levels higher than the rest of the party (about a factor of 3x effectiveness).

Qualifying for Pclasses would also become completely broken. He could qualify for pieus templar or occult slayer after 3 levels, not to mention some of the more unmentionable pclasses such as Ur-Priest. Also, the creation of a gish-type character, such as a spellsword or Eldich Knight would also be affected. The feat Practiced Spellcaster combined with these Pclasses would be heavily affected, since it is dependant on your HD, not your level.

Just some food for thought.

Pronounceable
2007-09-19, 12:32 PM
Why not give fighters bonus hp and be done with it? The idea is to grant them more staying power, if I got that right.

Kioran
2007-09-19, 02:22 PM
Another problem with bonus hit dice is a lot of spells and effects affect targets based either on their hit dice, or the delta between the effect origionator and the target. Spells like sleep, color spray, hypnotic patern, holy word (and family), and cloud kill, just to name a couple off the top of my head. To make one of these affects that would challenge him would completely destroy the rest of the party. It just doesn't scale properly with these effects.

Also, Leadership is affected by hit dice, not ECL, so a 6th level fighter (12 HD) could have up to a 10 HD cohort. His cohort would be 4 levels higher than the rest of the party (about a factor of 3x effectiveness).

Qualifying for Pclasses would also become completely broken. He could qualify for pieus templar or occult slayer after 3 levels, not to mention some of the more unmentionable pclasses such as Ur-Priest. Also, the creation of a gish-type character, such as a spellsword or Eldritch Knight would also be affected. The feat Practiced Spellcaster combined with these Pclasses would be heavily affected, since it is dependant on your HD, not your level.

Just some food for thought.

Yes, that is exactly the kind of problem, when HD = Character lvl. So the only possible thing would be to make the Bonus HD not count towards HD/Character level total except for some, specifically mentioned effects:
- Skill rank total (not Max skill) and Int bonus to these
- HP and constitution bonus to HP
- Saves (with poor saves across the board)
- BAB (with 0,5 for that martial class, still making it effectively full-BAB)
- Ability increases and Feat gain

Also, this class should never have any kind of spellcasting. If you still find any exploitable hole or shortcut to a PrC, Iīd be grateful if you let me know.


Why not give fighters bonus hp and be done with it? The idea is to grant them more staying power, if I got that right.

Not only - I also wanted to give him more skill ranks, better saves(that are this classes antimagic defense, to a point), and, most importantly, let him have a greater benefit from high Con and Int than a Wizard or Psion, who maxes these two and dumps everything else and so outskills and outlasts half the party.
I agree that this could be done by giving out some kind of bonus, but I find 5 different kinds of boni more clunky than additional limited use HD.

Kioran
2007-09-20, 10:21 AM
Okay - this is the most ridiculous thing Iīve come up with, given the material number 1 was restricted to. Itīs an imcomplete build, but atacks the most obvious weak spot in this classes balance.:

Erath, the undying

medium humanoid(human)
Hit Dice: 40d4 + 600 (651 Hp)
Speed: 30 ft. (X squares)
Init:
AC X; touch X; flat-footed X
(AC DETAILS)
BAB +20; Grp +22
Attack Standard attack +X (damage, critical range/critical multiplier + additional damage)
Full-Attack Full attack +X/+X/+X (damage, critical range/critical multiplier +additional damage)
Space X ft.; Reach X ft.
Special Attacks: none
Special Qualities: none
Saves Fort +27 Ref +14 Will +13
Abilities Str 14, Dex 12, Con 39(28+11), Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 8
Skills:
Feats: Improved Toughness
Challenge Rating/ECL: 20
Alignment

This is far from finished, but, imho, shows the most blatant power this clas can possess: a sh**load of HP, if you take on lvl of Barbarian instead of the last 2 HD, you can even reach 700 HP during rage. This guy still has 13 Feats, about 590k Wealth by lvl (135K tome of Con, 36k Con-Booster), and 92 Skill ranks.

Main question: Is the ability to withstand even the charge of some red cloud builds(and that what 650 HP enable you to do) really gamebreaking? Or is it just one big strength of a highly specialized build which could be circumvented?

Tor the Fallen
2007-09-20, 10:32 AM
Okay - this is the most ridiculous thing Iīve come up with, given the material number 1 was restricted to. Itīs an imcomplete build, but atacks the most obvious weak spot in this classes balance.:

Erath, the undying

medium humanoid(human)
Hit Dice: 40d4 + 600 (651 Hp)
Speed: 30 ft. (X squares)
Init:
AC X; touch X; flat-footed X
(AC DETAILS)
BAB +20; Grp +22
Attack Standard attack +X (damage, critical range/critical multiplier + additional damage)
Full-Attack Full attack +X/+X/+X (damage, critical range/critical multiplier +additional damage)
Space X ft.; Reach X ft.
Special Attacks: none
Special Qualities: none
Saves Fort +27 Ref +14 Will +13
Abilities Str 14, Dex 12, Con 39(28+11), Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 8
Skills:
Feats: Improved Toughness
Challenge Rating/ECL: 20
Alignment

This is far from finished, but, imho, shows the most blatant power this clas can possess: a sh**load of HP, if you take on lvl of Barbarian instead of the last 2 HD, you can even reach 700 HP during rage. This guy still has 13 Feats, about 590k Wealth by lvl (135K tome of Con, 36k Con-Booster), and 92 Skill ranks.

Main question: Is the ability to withstand even the charge of some red cloud builds(and that what 650 HP enable you to do) really gamebreaking? Or is it just one big strength of a highly specialized build which could be circumvented?

Yet he still fails the wizard's dominate monster.
HP give you nothing.

Kioran
2007-09-20, 12:02 PM
Yet he still fails the wizard's dominate monster.
HP give you nothing.

Thatīs what I figured. Itīs a singular, enourmous strength, derived from direct optimization for HP, but leaves other weaknesses. This guy could also have a +34 Will save (13, +14 Wis, +2 Iron Will, +5 Cloak), if so desired - but would tank his HP. That would leave him with a maximum of 410 HP - if he tanks his Strength, Dex and Int.
Somewhat customizable, this class.........but how powerful?

Seatbelt
2007-09-20, 12:39 PM
Why not just say that a fighters HD are =2D10. One "wizard" HD is 1D4, and one "fighter" HD is 2D10. He gets more HP without any of the other benefits of more hit dice.

Matthew
2007-09-20, 12:43 PM
I wouldn't advocate this approach either, for more or less the same reasons PersonMan cited.

If it helps, at the moment, I am looking at:

BAB: +1/per Fighter Level
Damage: +1/per Fighter Level
Hit Dice: 1D10/Fighter Level
Saves: +1/per Fighter Level
Movement: No restriction by Armour to Base Speed
Skills: All Class Skills are 3 + 1/per Fighter level

Kioran
2007-09-20, 01:04 PM
I wouldn't advocate this approach either, for more or less the same reasons PersonMan cited.

If it helps, at the moment, I am looking at:

BAB: +1/per Fighter Level
Damage: +1/per Fighter Level
Hit Dice: 1D10/Fighter Level
Saves: +1/per Fighter Level
Movement: No restriction by Armour to Base Speed
Skills: All Class Skills are 3 + 1/per Fighter level

Some of these are neat ideas, and, as well, one of the few good things to make it into 4th ed. In order of appearance:

BAB: Same as before, same as with my idea. I think we can agree this needs no readjustment.
Damage: A comensurate damage bonus. Scaling attack power without a different mechanic or easy to break feats is a nice thing, and would, in an extensive rework of the combat system, yield an even greater positive effect. I like this, but wouldnīt couple it with all of the currently avaiable options for increasing damage.
HD: Therein lies the problem. Your defensive capabilities do not scale on par with the offensive ones - you die quite fast, even faster with this fix if you happen to stumble upon a copy of yourself.
Saves: This is quite strong - at level 20 you will be able to save against almost anything most of the time. I think this requires some fiddling with the DCs as well as far as I am concerned, and in this department, is even more powerful than my suggestion.
Movement: I would restrict this to medium armor, actually giving it some reason to exist. But increased mobility is always nice, and I like it. Doesnīt seem overpowering.
Skill: A simplification, and an increase in power. Sadly, this also makes every Fighter alike. I donīt like it that much, honestly.

I think your Fighter Fix is good, and actually some of it, like the damage bonus, also appears in 4th Ed. , but the Bonus HD, with comensurate saves and a stronger exponential component in HP growth, are meant as a serious defensive upgrade. As far as I am concerned, if my class is a little less dangerous per round than the current Barbarian, and significantly less so than the warblade, but twice as hard to kill, Iīve met my design goal. I think it finally breaks down in Epic, at least compared to other classes, but then, these stand no chance against epic magic.....

What I want is to find out whether a balance for additional HD vs. Class features can be found for at all, at least for the range of lvls 1-20. Iīll finish the builds for a hard, matehmatical comparison.

Kaelik
2007-09-20, 01:45 PM
I haven't been keeping very good track of this thread but as far as I remember what you want for fighters is:

1)more HP
2)better saves
3)more skill points, but not a higher skill cap
4)same BAB

The best way to get these is not to give them more "special weird crazy HD."

But instead
1)change their HD to d12 or d20 or 2d10 or whatever.
2)Give them better save progression
3)change their skill points from 2+Int to 6+Int, or whatever else you want.
4)Don't touch BAB
5)Give them the same amount of regular HD

I've seen you say that changing things is more work then giving them more HD. Absolutely wrong. Giving them more HD requires you to make changes to every aspect of their character, including all the areas I mentioned. You keep trying to convince everyone that adding HD is easier. They don't believe you because it isn't true.

Kioran
2007-09-20, 01:55 PM
I haven't been keeping very good track of this thread but as far as I remember what you want for fighters is:

1)more HP
2)better saves
3)more skill points, but not a higher skill cap
4)same BAB

More or less, yes. But they should also get more strongly scaling HP. Saves, Skill points and HD is really easy. Additional Feats and ability increases as well. But how would you make the Con bonus to HP and the Int Bonus to skill increase(this is intentional!).


The best way to get these is not to give them more "special weird crazy HD."

But instead
1)change their HD to d12 or d20 or 2d10 or whatever.
2)Give them better save progression
3)change their skill points from 2+Int to 6+Int, or whatever else you want.
4)Don't touch BAB
5)Give them the same amount of regular HD

I've seen you say that changing things is more work then giving them more HD. Absolutely wrong. Giving them more HD requires you to make changes to every aspect of their character, including all the areas I mentioned. You keep trying to convince everyone that adding HD is easier. They don't believe you because it isn't true.

I believe it is true - to me it is. But then, the way I think and my perspective on things is often different. If I wanted to have the same effects, if not in magnitude, but in kind, Iīd have to:

- Increase skill ranks per level and HD size (easy enough)
- add save boni, bonus Feats and free ability increases (still easy)
- add a note saying "add twice your con/int modifier to your HD/skill ranks per lvl in this class (were getting swampy here. Also, this should under no circumstances apply to a lvl of another class. Itīd be cheesy at best)

The problem with these three is that the third one will lead to confusion, and the first two ones will positively bloat the tables for that class. I think additional HD with limited impact are not more difficult than that, if worded correctly, but your mileage may vary.

Matthew
2007-09-20, 02:16 PM
Some of these are neat ideas, and, as well, one of the few good things to make it into 4th ed. In order of appearance:

Damage: A comensurate damage bonus. Scaling attack power without a different mechanic or easy to break feats is a nice thing, and would, in an extensive rework of the combat system, yield an even greater positive effect. I like this, but wouldnīt couple it with all of the currently avaiable options for increasing damage.

Yeah, this is the one that needs the most thinking through, as it multiplies anytime your attacks do. However, there is a way round this, via what they did with Saga, which is basically to give Fighters a Flurry Ability that works with any weapon, but imposes a -4 to Hit on all Attacks and abandon Iterative Attacks. Power Attack would have to return to a 1:1 Ratio, though.


HD: Therein lies the problem. Your defensive capabilities do not scale on par with the offensive ones - you die quite fast, even faster with this fix if you happen to stumble upon a copy of yourself.

Hit Points aren't the resource you need to increase, though. It's Armour Class and Damage reduction you need to use. Fighters shouldn't be able to take loads of hits, they just need to be able to counter them. High AC brings it's own problems, but there's always the Parry/Block/Dodge option. Basically, give Fighters the ToB Manoeuvre Wall of Blades(?) Anyway, the one that lets them make a Saving Throw against one Attack per Round. Even better, allow two if they have a Shield.


Saves: This is quite strong - at level 20 you will be able to save against almost anything most of the time. I think this requires some fiddling with the DCs as well as far as I am concerned, and in this department, is even more powerful than my suggestion.

It's meant to be strong. AD&D Fighters have Saves similar to this (perhaps better)


Movement: I would restrict this to medium armor, actually giving it some reason to exist. But increased mobility is always nice, and I like it. Doesnīt seem overpowering.

Whoops. Yeah, Heavy Armour needs to have it's Run Speed reduced to x2 if you use this idea.


Skill: A simplification, and an increase in power. Sadly, this also makes every Fighter alike. I donīt like it that much, honestly.

Heh. You could always let Fighters choose their Class Skills. Otherwise, give them points equivalent to the above and let them assign them as they like. Another is to make all Skills equal to (1/level) and let them assign '3 point boosts' to a select number.

Also:

Feats: 1/Fighter Level

storybookknight
2007-09-20, 02:27 PM
I'm bored with Fighter fixes. The only real solution to making them comparable to Wizards has been done in Tome of Battle. The fact that this is too Anime for many campaigns is unfortunate, but them's the breaks.

Giving them more HP and better attacks doesn't do much when confronted with spells like Dominate Person - you'd be better off giving them better saving throws and free weapon specializations in addition to their other feats.

If all you can do is attack every round, things get boring quick. Giving them Weapon Focus/Specialization/etc. for free is good flavor, and keeps other feats open so that they have options in combat.

Matthew
2007-09-20, 02:41 PM
I'm bored with Fighter fixes. The only real solution to making them comparable to Wizards has been done in Tome of Battle. The fact that this is too Anime for many campaigns is unfortunate, but them's the breaks.

Giving them more HP and better attacks doesn't do much when confronted with spells like Dominate Person - you'd be better off giving them better saving throws and free weapon specializations in addition to their other feats.

If all you can do is attack every round, things get boring quick. Giving them Weapon Focus/Specialization/etc. for free is good flavor, and keeps other feats open so that they have options in combat.

Uh, look above and you'll notice that increasing Saving Throws, amongst other things, are under discussion. I'm glad that you like Tome of Battle and there's plenty of inspiration to be gained from that resource, but if the OP felt that it was an adequette solution to his problem, he'd have said so. Moreover, not everybody has access to said book or wishes to see an end to a discussion of alternative approaches.

storybookknight
2007-09-20, 03:02 PM
You're right, I did miss the saving throw discussion, and I may have been overly terse. I apologize.

However, the reason I bring ToB up is not because I consider it eminently the final word on the problem, but because I do believe that the only way for a fighter type to fairly match any spellcaster is to give him abilities which work mechanically like spells. Feats are nice, but aren't as useful as 'maneuvers' for the purpose of Giving Characters More Options In Combat, which is the biggest reason wizards are overbalanced in terms of, not just game mechanics, but play mechanics.

Also, as far as I've seen, there are no feats to give Fighters something useful to do with their swift or immediate actions, or at least an insufficient supply thereof. If one character has the option of doing three things in a round, and another may only do one, the first has an advantage, almost without even considering what those three things are.

Giving a Fighter more health - and the saves to (relatively) ignore Save or Die Effects - and the maneuverability to avoid Battlefield Control effects - still doesn't give him the overall utility of someone who has inherently more combat and noncombat options. More skill points could be one solution to that problem... but Hide becomes obsolete after invisibility. Climb is useful only rarely after fly. Swim? Freedom of Movement. Ride maintains its usefulness, but requires the Leadership feat - which many DMs are loath to allow. And then there are a multiplicity of spells which grant bonuses to skill checks, meaning that those without access to those spells get once again left behind, or become dependent upon their buffing companions, who would probably rather be doing things themselves.

That said, better saves, maneuverability, and skills, are all things which would do at least something to alleviate the major concerns facing the fighter. More Health is not the problem the fighter has.

Matthew
2007-09-20, 03:58 PM
*Stuff*

Yeah, I'd agree with a lot of that. What I don't really get about ToB is why the Manouevres are limited by level. It seems to me that it would make more sense for any Martial Class to be able to learn the various stances and Manoeuvres (the more mundane ones, at least) in unlimited fashion and then employ them in a similar manner as a War Blade (i.e. one after the other until renewed with a Swift Action). The Weapon Specific Manoeuvres that 4e appears to be hinting at are a very attractive idea.

storybookknight
2007-09-20, 04:04 PM
Given all of the rampant discussion about how big a problem imbalance is in 3.5 D&D, one can ONLY hope that they have specific ideas in mind for 4th edition.

Kioran
2007-09-20, 04:54 PM
Hit Points aren't the resource you need to increase, though. It's Armour Class and Damage reduction you need to use. Fighters shouldn't be able to take loads of hits, they just need to be able to counter them. High AC brings it's own problems, but there's always the Parry/Block/Dodge option. Basically, give Fighters the ToB Manoeuvre Wall of Blades(?) Anyway, the one that lets them make a Saving Throw against one Attack per Round. Even better, allow two if they have a Shield.

Kind of like an opposed roll mechanic. The main problem is that this slows down combat resolution. Apart from that, Attack Bonus outstrips almost everything in progression, certainly AC, and most probably even your juiced up saves. Regardless, I think the ToB Ability made you make an opposed attack roll - which is, of course, balanced against an attack roll.
Still, you are going to get hit, increasingly hard as you progress. Right now, the only reasonable defence is killing all possible threats as fast as possible. I think some more HP for the "soak" classes are not mandatory, but I think Itīd be a nice option to have someone who can still take one round of the worst you can dish out and still stand.


It's meant to be strong. AD&D Fighters have Saves similar to this (perhaps better)

Well, I donīt think you should be quite as powerful without specializing, but that remains a matter of taste. I think, however, we can both agree a Fighter should at least have strong saves, since they are, under many circumstances, his last and only line of defense against magic.


Heh. You could always let Fighters choose their Class Skills. Otherwise, give them points equivalent to the above and let them assign them as they like. Another is to make all Skills equal to (1/level) and let them assign '3 point boosts' to a select number.

Also:

Feats: 1/Fighter Level

Couple these: offer Feats that let you add skills to your class skill list or let you pick additional skills per lvl. I think we can agree a working Fighter class would swallow some of itīs children, like Swashbucklers, Samurai or, to a certain extent, Rangers. These should be mere specializations of the Fighter, and trading in your Feats for Skills seems part of the way to go.


However, the reason I bring ToB up is not because I consider it eminently the final word on the problem, but because I do believe that the only way for a fighter type to fairly match any spellcaster is to give him abilities which work mechanically like spells. Feats are nice, but aren't as useful as 'maneuvers' for the purpose of Giving Characters More Options In Combat, which is the biggest reason wizards are overbalanced in terms of, not just game mechanics, but play mechanics.

Also, as far as I've seen, there are no feats to give Fighters something useful to do with their swift or immediate actions, or at least an insufficient supply thereof. If one character has the option of doing three things in a round, and another may only do one, the first has an advantage, almost without even considering what those three things are.

Partially correct. More available actions mean, in the least, additional versatility. But thatīs mainly a problem of the timeframe: swift actions entered the stage with the XPH, at a time when the core classes were already finished. That thereīs little you can do with swift actions or few feats which actually enable you to do stuff is a shame, but can be rectified without resorting to a system similiar to spells. I think most of ToB should be an option, not mandatory if you want to remain effectively.
Then, thereīs people doing awesome, cinematic stuff (maybe itīs not anime, I think it isnīt, but much like Eberron, ToB is meant to be cinematic), and others, who, while not as flashy or maybe artful, are masters of very, very straightforward butchery.

Kaelik
2007-09-20, 05:13 PM
- add a note saying "add twice your con/int modifier to your HD/skill ranks per lvl in this class (were getting swampy here. Also, this should under no circumstances apply to a lvl of another class. Itīd be cheesy at best)

Why? Why would you need to add that. If the have enough HP (2d10) then they don't need double Con. If they don't have enough add more (2d12)(3d6).

If they have enough skill points (6+Int) why do they need double Int? If they don't have enough then make it more (8+Int).

Your problem is very simple.

1)You know that Fighters are underpowered.
2)You thought of one possible way that it could be fixed (more HD).
3)You decided that is the only/best way to fix them, no matter what mechanics are used, no matter what the problem is MORE HD IS THE ONLY RIGHT ANSWER!
4)Now you want to conform any fighter fix into something that increases HD.

You don't need double Con to get them enough HP. Just fiddle with the HD. You don't need double Int to get the right amount of skill points, just fiddle with X+Int.

What you really need to do with fighter fixes is simple.

1)Ask yourself, "What is the Problem?"

The answer is not "Fighters are too weak." Why are they too weak?

The answer you came up with is:
Skills
Saves
HP
Class Abilities

Find a solution to each of those problems from scratch.

Obvious answers would be:
More Skills
Better Saves
Higher HD
More Class abilities

You don't need to conform these solutions to "doubling HD." They are fine as is.





Other people may have different problems with Fighters and that is why every new fighter fix addresses different things.

My personal answer is very simple:
Skills
Class Abilities
Things to do in Combat

That's why I play Warblades or any number of other classes. (Goliath DungeonCrasher variant into Warhulk with lots of Bull Rush feats (Imp Bull Rush/Shock Trooper/Leap Attack/Improved Trip/Full Power Attack) and a Brutal Surge Weapon. It gets old fast, but that's okay because your DM will outlaw it after the first two times you use it.)

Matthew
2007-09-20, 05:39 PM
Kind of like an opposed roll mechanic. The main problem is that this slows down combat resolution. Apart from that, Attack Bonus outstrips almost everything in progression, certainly AC, and most probably even your juiced up saves. Regardless, I think the ToB Ability made you make an opposed attack roll - which is, of course, balanced against an attack roll.
Still, you are going to get hit, increasingly hard as you progress. Right now, the only reasonable defence is killing all possible threats as fast as possible. I think some more HP for the "soak" classes are not mandatory, but I think Itīd be a nice option to have someone who can still take one round of the worst you can dish out and still stand.

Yeah, the Saving Throw would be based on the Attack Bonus. Of course, you could try a few Variants, such as making it 10 + Attack Bonus as a Parallel Armour Class. As long as you dump Iterative Attacks, there shouldn't be much more in the way of rolling. It is an Opposed Roll Mechanic, very similar to the Mounted Combat Feat, but also discussed to death on the Homebrew Boards:

Z-Axis’s Combat Action and Feat (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3020404#post3020404)
Skjaldbakka's Parrying System (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48609)
Talanic & Erk's Interception System (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44108)
Tough Tonka's D20 Parrying System (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38214)
Elliott20's Parrying System (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36139)
Magic8Ball's Parrying Feats (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34053)
Munchy's Parrying Fighter Feats (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23175&page=2)
Senir's Parry Skill (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25404)
Matthew's Active Defence (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22979&page=2)
Tower’s Parrying System (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54235)



Well, I donīt think you should be quite as powerful without specializing, but that remains a matter of taste. I think, however, we can both agree a Fighter should at least have strong saves, since they are, under many circumstances, his last and only line of defense against magic.

Fair dues.


Couple these: offer Feats that let you add skills to your class skill list or let you pick additional skills per lvl. I think we can agree a working Fighter class would swallow some of itīs children, like Swashbucklers, Samurai or, to a certain extent, Rangers. These should be mere specializations of the Fighter, and trading in your Feats for Skills seems part of the way to go.

Yeah, the Feat system is a problem with regard to this. The Dungeon Master would probably have to be fairly heavy handed with what is and isn't allowed, in which case he is building a discreet set of Sub Classes.

Kioran
2007-09-20, 05:42 PM
Why? Why would you need to add that. If the have enough HP (2d10) then they don't need double Con. If they don't have enough add more (2d12)(3d6).

If they have enough skill points (6+Int) why do they need double Int? If they don't have enough then make it more (8+Int).

Mainly: Because double Int to skills actually rewards a smart Fighter, while the mechanic currently only encourages Spellcasters to train skills on the side while boosting their Caster-stat. A smart Fighter now gets decent returns on his investment in intelligence, whereas 6+Int let even the most stupid chunk of meat fill the secondary skill monkey role.
Con? Mainly to offer higher returns to non-caster, MAD/VAD characters. you know, a benefit that depends on specialization.



Your problem is very simple.

1)You know that Fighters are underpowered.
2)You thought of one possible way that it could be fixed (more HD).
3)You decided that is the only/best way to fix them, no matter what mechanics are used, no matter what the problem is MORE HD IS THE ONLY RIGHT ANSWER!

No, itīs not the only fix, but I want to make it a viable one. And Iīm not the first one to come up with something similiar, even if in a different context: Elementals, for example, get additional HD to compenaste for the fact that they do not have any special attacks worth using.


4)Now you want to conform any fighter fix into something that increases HD.

No. Just......no.


You don't need double Con to get them enough HP. Just fiddle with the HD. You don't need double Int to get the right amount of skill points, just fiddle with X+Int.

Well, take a look at the maths - additional, baseline HP do not "behave" like I want this to behave. They should be a reward for specializing(since you have additional ability increases, you can indeed specialize with them), not something everyone gets for dipping into the class.
Your "simple" solutions do not, I repeat, create the intended effect outside a very specific range.


What you really need to do with fighter fixes is simple.

1)Ask yourself, "What is the Problem?"

The answer is not "Fighters are too weak." Why are they too weak?

The answer you came up with is:
Skills
Saves
HP
Class Abilities


Mainly, itīs the lack of class Features and decent Saves. I thought about increasing the saves, and offering them a method of compensating their lack of class Features through either the use of Skills or HP, meaning very basic, sonventional combat mechanics.


Find a solution to each of those problems from scratch.

Obvious answers would be:
More Skills
Better Saves
Higher HD
More Class abilities

You don't need to conform these solutions to "doubling HD." They are fine as is.

I find this is bordering on patronizing, but, as said above, for me, and the intended result outlined, these are not fine as is. Iīm not here to advocate doubling HD, but Iīll try to find a solution which balances additional HD with a lack of class Features.


Other people may have different problems with Fighters and that is why every new fighter fix addresses different things.

My personal answer is very simple:
Skills
Class Abilities
Things to do in Combat

That's why I play Warblades or any number of other classes. (Goliath DungeonCrasher variant into Warhulk with lots of Bull Rush feats (Imp Bull Rush/Shock Trooper/Leap Attack/Improved Trip/Full Power Attack) and a Brutal Surge Weapon. It gets old fast, but that's okay because your DM will outlaw it after the first two times you use it.)

A "Fighter-Fix" based on simply granting something vaguely Fighter-shaped class Features already exists, and thatīs the ToB. My initial burning hatred has subsumed and has been replaced by a grudging acceptance and some mild annoyance.
Itīs a lot more viable than many of the "melee-cheese" combinations you mentioned, but I donīt like it all that much because it introduces another combat mechanic with bookkeeping.

I can live with it(or, say, something very like it) as an alternative, but I want to offer something using very basic combat mechanics. All the hassle with "Bonus-HD", as they may be, can easily be handled before a session..
Just use that finished Char-sheet, and little more Core Combat-mechanics. For me, thatīs some simplicity.

Kioran
2007-09-21, 06:27 PM
Yeah, the Saving Throw would be based on the Attack Bonus. Of course, you could try a few Variants, such as making it 10 + Attack Bonus as a Parallel Armour Class. As long as you dump Iterative Attacks, there shouldn't be much more in the way of rolling. It is an Opposed Roll Mechanic, very similar to the Mounted Combat Feat, but also discussed to death on the Homebrew Boards

Active defense is a staple in german RP-Systems(DSA), and most possess some parry mechanics. Main disadvantage is slowing down combat. seriously, additional rolls, additional bookkeeping. Would be feaster it if wasnīt necessesary to keep track of active defense as well.
It could be relatively easy balanced, I think, but thean again, I wouldnīt restrict it to the Fighter, but make it available to everyone. this would, however, entail a bigger rework of 3.5 than most other solutions.

Matthew
2007-09-21, 08:08 PM
Active Defence is actually fairly common in RPGs across the board. To the best of my knowledge, it's first appearance in D&D came with the Complete Fighter's Handbook (1989). It also turned up in Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay in the Companion Rulebook (forgotten the name). Honestly, I have been playing using Active Defence for years and I haven't found it to noticably slow down the game at all, but we do use a few short cuts; I don't limit it to Fighters either.