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TimeWizard
2007-09-20, 07:47 AM
As stated above, what are the recommended paths/maneuvers or all around strategies for a swordsage? How many paths can you commit to? Any advice?

I was thinking of Diamond Mind/Shadow Hand/Desert Wind. Opinions?

Dhavaer
2007-09-20, 07:51 AM
Diamond Mind/Shadow Hand. Dip a little Tiger Claw for Raging Mongoose, and take the * Blades boost from Desert Wind. Then use Dual Boost to initiate Raging Mongoose, Inferno Blade and Time Stands Still.
Note also that Mountain Tombstone Strike has no pre-reqs, so you don't need any Stone Dragon but that.

Lord Tataraus
2007-09-20, 08:32 AM
It really depends what sort of direction you want to go. I usually go with a real sneaky, pure dex build with lots of Shadow Hand/Tiger Claw, with a few Diamond Mind and Stone Dragon. I want to try a more monk-like build and go with Setting Sun/Diamond Mind. You usually need at least 3 disciplines, focusing on two of them.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-09-20, 08:43 AM
Usually, the recommended path is diiamond mind with desert wind for area damage. What you MUST do, more or less, is go out of the way to get the boosts that give the highest AB possible. Why? The answer is one diamond mind maneuver that allows you to make an infinite number of attacks as long as they keep hittin'. You might even want to consider bard or batsorc for getting true strike, since it means 5 extra attacks right there and now.

Neftren
2007-09-20, 08:47 AM
Desert Wind = Damage Dealer
Diamond Mind = Lets you attack a bunch more with the above moves
Setting Sun = Bunch of Counters - I don't find this as useful but some of the stances and counters are pretty good...
Shadow Hand = Kill him with Touch Attacks and Stealth.

I prefer using Diamond Mind, Desert Wind and Shadow Hand but I did dip in to Setting Sun for Step of the Wind... Shadow Hand was useful for the stances, especially Assassin's Stance and Cloak of Concealment or whatever... move 10 ft and VANISH!! :smallsmile: Then pop out an ambush with a bunch of Desert Wind or Diamond Mind maneuvers.

That's what I've been using on Siriphae Siph'laren, check my Sig, 2nd Spoiler.

Cogwheel
2007-09-20, 08:53 AM
honestly? The roleplayer in me is saying "whatever fits your character", and the gamer in me is saying "whatever you have the most fun with". My version fits both (in my eyes, anyway). This (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=13845159#post13845159) guy, f'r instance, is an example of the apparently common Shadow hand/Tiger Claw combo.

Merlin the Tuna
2007-09-20, 08:55 AM
For the most part, where you go with a Swordsage is dictated purely by flavor -- with the exception of Desert Wind, all of the discipline are pretty good. I would generally advise against focusing on Diamond Mind, Stone Dragon, or Tiger Claw simply because the Warblade tends to use the disciplines better thanks to his full BAB, but they do make excellent mix-ins.

Lord Tataraus
2007-09-20, 09:19 AM
I will add to the "make the character based on flavor" group. Swordsage does not need a lot of power gaming to be useful unlike fighter. Therefore, you can focus more on the flavor. My current swordsage is a Tibbit who fights in his cat form at all times. He is the unarmed swordsage variant and the DM has ruled that the unarmed strike damage is the claw damage. So I took Shadow Hand to enhance my already awesome stealth and Tiger Claw because I am a cat TWF with claws!

Thrawn183
2007-09-20, 09:23 AM
Yeah I have a ninja/swordsage multiclass that I focused on Shadow Hand because it fit the character. I've found that it doesn't really matter which you focus on, they're all at least decent.

Seatbelt
2007-09-20, 11:56 AM
Does anyone have any tips/hints for a Drow Swordsage/Sorc/Jade Phoenix Mage? We're starting at second level, and I've only got LA+1 instead of +2. 25 point buy. The classes are more or less fixed, I want be those 3 classes, and the DM is opposed to multiclass powergame cheese, so really only those classes are available.

But general feat tips/spell selection (Ability scores! I have 16 dex, 15 wis, 16 cha, but only 10 con and 8(!) str, something tells me that isint even remotely optimal. :P), optimal level progression etc, would be uber. :)

Lord Tataraus
2007-09-20, 11:59 AM
Does anyone have any tips/hints for a Drow Swordsage/Sorc/Jade Phoenix Mage? We're starting at second level, and I've only got LA+1 instead of +2. 25 point buy. The classes are more or less fixed, I want be those 3 classes, and the DM is opposed to multiclass powergame cheese, so really only those classes are available.

But general feat tips/spell selection (Ability scores! I have 16 dex, 15 wis, 16 cha, but only 10 con and 8(!) str, something tells me that isint even remotely optimal. :P), optimal level progression etc, would be uber. :)

I would switch wis and con. The strength doesn't matter if you go with Shadow Hand stances and get Weapon Finesse and Shadow Blade ASAP. Try to boost dex as much as you can.

Darrin
2007-09-20, 01:22 PM
Does anyone have any tips/hints for a Drow Swordsage/Sorc/Jade Phoenix Mage?

Well, you can't get 9th level spells, but... hmm, you're going to run into multiclass penalties if you try to maximize caster level.

SwordSage 5/Sorc 5/JPM 10 would get you 6th level spells, BAB +15, IL 17.5, no xp penalty. You'd be a bit too fragile for frontline tanking, best to stick with the sneaky/utility role.

See if your DM would allow you to take Kung Fu Genius (Dragon Compendium) to switch your AC bonus from Wis to Int, and take Wizard instead (favored class for male drow), which would allow SwordSage 1/Wizard 5/JPM 10/Wizard +4, which would get 9th level spells, or Wizard 3/SwordSage 7/JPM 10, which would maximize your IL and maneuvers.

For maneuvers, start with:
Island of Blades (SH1, Stance)
Burning Blade (DW1)
Wind Stride (DW2)
Sapphire Nightmare Blade (DM1)
Shadow Blade Technique (SH1)
Wolf Fang Strike (TC1)
Sudden Leap (TC1)

Pick up TWF and Shadow Blade ASAP, and focus on Diamond Mind, Shadow Hand, and Tiger Claw disciplines. For Diamond Mind, max out your Concentration ranks and grab counters, boosts, and movement maneuvers first. For Shadow Hand, avoid the strikes but grab Cloak of Deception, Assassin's Stance and the Shadow Jump maneuvers. For Tiger Claw, grab the TWF boosts and Death From Above.

Once you get into JPM, you'll need to decide if you want to focus on picking up Desert Wind or Devoted Spirit maneuvers. For Desert Wind, grab the boosts and counters first, and avoid the direct blaster damage unless it's an area effect or battlefield control (Death Mark and Ring of Fire are interesting).

Devoted Spirit is harder to pick from... not a lot of boosts/counters, mostly standard-action strikes, which doesn't work well with TWF. Aura of Chaos (DS6, reroll damage dice), however, is probably well worth picking up. Start with Crusader's Strike (DS1, attack and heal with a standard action, and it scales up as you increase IL), then Foehammer (DS2, all-purpose "ignore DR" can-opener).

If you can spare the feats, consider using Martial Study to pick up Wall of Blades (WR2, counter w/ attack roll) and Iron Heart Surge (cancel adverse conditions and area effects) or Leading the Attack and White Raven Tactics (WR3, grant another turn to an ally). Press the Advantage (WR5) can also be fun for TWF (full attack, step back 10').

Person_Man
2007-09-20, 01:39 PM
Does anyone have any tips/hints for a Drow Swordsage/Sorc/Jade Phoenix Mage?

Look at this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57352). Buy or download the Drow of the Underdark book. It's chock full of Drow buffs.


Re: Main topic: It depends on you ECL. At low levels, there are a lot of highly useful Standard Action maneuvers. At higher levels, you never want to give up extra attacks if you can. Thus you generally want to focus on maneuvers that work as a Swift or Full Round action.

By the same token, you should decide whether you prefer Boosts or Counters. You can only make one Swift or Immediate Action per round. So you should either use Boosts (buffing your attacks every round) or keep your Immediate Action open, in case you need to use a Counter (increasing your defense when the Counter happens to be applicable).

TimeWizard
2007-09-20, 02:54 PM
A popular combo seems to be Shadow Hand/ Tiger Claw (which is funny for fluff, because those two masters attacked their own school in the aptly named Shadow Tiger Rebellion). Diamond Mind seems to be another staple choice, kudos to Azerian for the Diamond Mind tip. @Merlin: Desert Wind is a bad path? Why? @Neftren: Thanks for the combo!

It seems many people focus on two paths, and either dip a third or pick and choose from others. Are there any combos worth noting or things that have good synergy?

Time's Extra Bit: The Origional Shadow Hand / Tiger Claw Swordsage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akuma_%28Street_Fighter%29)

Darrin
2007-09-20, 03:28 PM
Desert Wind is a bad path?

It's mostly blast damage, and once you get up a few CRs, everything and their grandma is immune or indifferent to fire damage, and there's no easy way to Energy Substitute around DR/immunity.



It seems many people focus on two paths, and either dip a third or pick and choose from others. Are there any combos worth noting or things that have good synergy?


Tome of Battle Build Compendium I & II:

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=683941
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=887398

Tips/Tricks/Combos:

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=680285

Merlin the Tuna
2007-09-20, 04:15 PM
@Merlin: Desert Wind is a bad path? Why? It's got a couple of gems, but a lot of it is direct damage -- but more importantly not very impressive direct damage. Being nigh-totally fire based means that one simple Protection from Energy spell means that the majority of your class features are worthless. The ray/cone/whatever ones are especially bad, as they offer absolutely no scaling. I won't say Scorching Ray is the best spell in the PHB, but it's at least somewhat useful as levels go on since you continue to get more rays out of it. Not so much for Fan the Flames.

And on a related note, there are a lot of double-ups in Desert Wind. Swordsages get a lot of maneuvers, but you're still stuck at 3 of your highest level one, tops. (2 from level-ups, 1 from trading in an old maneuver). That's a pretty high opportunity cost... do you really want to spend it upgrading Burning Blade (1d6+IL extra fire damage) for Searing Blade (2d6+IL extra fire damage) when you make it up to 7th level? That's a net upgrade of 3.5 damage -- wahoo. I mean, you can prep both so you can do effectively the same trick twice, but you might as well be a Warblade if that's gonna be your approach to combat.

Desert Wind does have a few gems (Flame's Blessing, Leaping Flame, Desert Tempest), but way too much of it is just grabbing a couple extra dice of fire damage.

Neftren
2007-09-20, 08:37 PM
The major advantage with DW is that you can use a lot of the Touch Attacks, same with SH siince Touch AC is by far lower than normal AC. Easier to hit, especially if you're using Weapon Finesse, everything you can do to beef up your BAB and any Enhancement Bonuses you can get to increase your attack rolls...

Desert Wind's last move, 100 Fire Damage move is useful to 1 hit KO lower level stuff...

Edea
2007-09-20, 08:47 PM
As stated above, what are the recommended paths/maneuvers or all around strategies for a swordsage? How many paths can you commit to? Any advice?

I was thinking of Diamond Mind/Shadow Hand/Desert Wind. Opinions?

My swordsages are usually real heavy on Shadow Hand and Setting Sun (tend to play a reworked version of the unarmed variant), especially if I intend to go into SSN (which, frankly, oozes awesome from every pore).

When I want a 'Diamond Tiger,' I usually go for a Warblade/Swordsage combo instead of straight Swordsage. Desert Wind I avoid like the plague.

Neftren
2007-09-20, 09:06 PM
Ah but it's fun to ahnnilate the opponent before he even moves :D. Especially against my campaigns that are usually NPC heavy... not much in terms of Fire Resisting Creatures... I don't think much of Setting Sun just because it's too "Counter" based... but that's just me.

Merlin the Tuna
2007-09-20, 10:21 PM
The major advantage with DW is that you can use a lot of the Touch Attacks, same with SH siince Touch AC is by far lower than normal AC.Actually, there isn't much in the way of touch attacks. Fan the Flames and Fire Riposte are the only ones. There's quite a bit in the way of Reflex saves, though, and I wouldn't necessarily say that's a good thing.

Edea
2007-09-20, 10:26 PM
One variant you might consider is to allow a Swordsage to select an energy type at 1st level that dictates the qualities of any Desert Wind maneuvers he learns for the rest of his character career.

That way you're not stuck with a bunch of Fire attacks if you don't want them (now, don't go off picking some retard-o element like [Light] or something, and picking [Sonic] might invoke a minor aspect of the Cheese gods, but it's still not horrifyingly imbalanced to do so).

dyslexicfaser
2007-09-20, 10:39 PM
Personally, I like aiming for Master of Nine with my swordsages, for which you need to get at least 1 technique of 5 different schools, and a specific feat list, including Imp Unarmed Strike, Adaptive Style and Blind-Fight.

But that's just me.

Also, question for one of the above poster: I thought Drow were +4 LA or something crazy like that?

Dhavaer
2007-09-20, 10:46 PM
Personally, I like aiming for Master of Nine with my swordsages, for which you need to get at least 1 technique of 5 different schools, and a specific feat list, including Imp Unarmed Strike, Adaptive Style and Blind-Fight.

But that's just me.

Also, question for one of the above poster: I thought Drow were +4 LA or something crazy like that?

Master of Nine needs 6 schools, and drow are +2 LA.

Lord Tataraus
2007-09-20, 10:50 PM
My swordsages are usually real heavy on Shadow Hand and Setting Sun (tend to play a reworked version of the unarmed variant), especially if I intend to go into SSN (which, frankly, oozes awesome from every pore).

Reworked Unarmed Swordsage? Intriguing, how is it reworked?

Edea
2007-09-20, 11:00 PM
Well, more like "better." As in, it gets the Ki strikes (save for lawful, doesn't get an alignment Ki strike at all) and both flurries at the appropriate levels. Also, if we're using this variant (sometimes we're not), normal monks are disallowed; the swordsage effectively replaces them. We've tried games where Fighter, Paladin and Monk are completely replaced by Warblade, Crusader and Swordsage: quite a bit of fun.

Merlin the Tuna
2007-09-20, 11:19 PM
Well, more like "better." As in, it gets the Ki strikes (save for lawful, doesn't get an alignment Ki strike at all) and both flurries at the appropriate levels.Well that's completely unhelpful and out of place on a Swordsage.

Edea
2007-09-20, 11:22 PM
Notice how you skipped over "there are no Monks when we use this variant" :/.

Seatbelt
2007-09-21, 09:23 AM
Stuff


Wizard would have been my first choice but the DM has dissalowed a lot of arcane classes (not so much because he hates magic, but it has been lost in this setting and needs to be rediscovered). Tanking Wis is good to, but he's using the taint rules and taint sucks. So I need a high Wis. Otherwise I'd go Warblade/JPM.

Lord Tataraus
2007-09-21, 07:35 PM
Wizard would have been my first choice but the DM has dissalowed a lot of arcane classes (not so much because he hates magic, but it has been lost in this setting and needs to be rediscovered). Tanking Wis is good to, but he's using the taint rules and taint sucks. So I need a high Wis. Otherwise I'd go Warblade/JPM.

Awww...taint is fun :smallamused:

Seatbelt
2007-09-22, 02:00 PM
Awww...taint is fun :smallamused:

It's an interesting mechanic and I'm excited to play an insane evil drow sneak. But the penalties can get wicked. So I want my high wisdom. :P

TimeWizard
2007-09-24, 05:08 PM
Thanks for the tip on Desert Wind. I always forget that DnD Monsters love fire resistance.

Dausuul
2007-09-24, 06:11 PM
It's got a couple of gems, but a lot of it is direct damage -- but more importantly not very impressive direct damage. Being nigh-totally fire based means that one simple Protection from Energy spell means that the majority of your class features are worthless. The ray/cone/whatever ones are especially bad, as they offer absolutely no scaling. I won't say Scorching Ray is the best spell in the PHB, but it's at least somewhat useful as levels go on since you continue to get more rays out of it. Not so much for Fan the Flames.

And on a related note, there are a lot of double-ups in Desert Wind. Swordsages get a lot of maneuvers, but you're still stuck at 3 of your highest level one, tops. (2 from level-ups, 1 from trading in an old maneuver). That's a pretty high opportunity cost... do you really want to spend it upgrading Burning Blade (1d6+IL extra fire damage) for Searing Blade (2d6+IL extra fire damage) when you make it up to 7th level? That's a net upgrade of 3.5 damage -- wahoo. I mean, you can prep both so you can do effectively the same trick twice, but you might as well be a Warblade if that's gonna be your approach to combat.

I have found the Burning/Searing/Inferno Blade line to be highly effective, actually. The thing is that they're boosts, not strikes--which means you can stack them with strikes, particularly the Tiger Claw strikes that give you a bajillion attacks, with fire damage on every single one of them. Adding your level (plus one to three d6s) to your damage on every single attack is nothing to sneeze at.

At higher levels, of course, fire resistance starts to become common, but against anything without fire resistance these maneuvers are quite nasty. And there are a whole lot of monsters that don't have fire resistance--virtually all undead, most giants, all animals, all vermin, most magical beasts, most plants, et cetera.

Finally, being a swordsage with Adaptive Style (you did take Adaptive Style, right?) means you aren't stuck with fire damage if you don't want to be. You have enough maneuvers that you can afford a little specialization in some of them.

Dhavaer
2007-09-24, 06:18 PM
Fighting non-fire resistant monsters (there are actually quite a few) with Inferno Blade/Raging Mongoose/Time Stands Still is great fun. Although 'It explodes' does get boring after a while.

Mr. Moogle
2007-09-24, 06:24 PM
look out becuz' your about to be hit by the BEST BUILD EVER!!!!


It starts off with monk (you meed a high wis for this to work). Stay monk for a couple of levels and then swich to desert wind swordsage and get burning blades. Flurry of blows + Burning blades = MAXIMUM OWN

Dausuul
2007-09-24, 06:33 PM
look out becuz' your about to be hit by the BEST BUILD EVER!!!!


It starts off with monk (you meed a high wis for this to work). Stay monk for a couple of levels and then swich to desert wind swordsage and get burning blades. Flurry of blows + Burning blades = MAXIMUM OWN

Er, you know the monk's Wisdom bonus to AC and the swordsage's Wisdom bonus to AC don't stack, right? And that Flurry doesn't work if you're wearing armor, which negates one of the big advantages of the swordsage? And that Tiger Claw maneuvers can do the same thing as Flurry except better?

And while I've just been extolling the virtues of the Burning Blade line, I do feel I should point out that a) its benefits are strongly dependent on your initiate level, making it sub-optimal for a multiclasser, and b) it is straight fire damage. It's okay because you have so many maneuvers that you can just switch to a different one if your current foe is fire resistant, but I wouldn't make an entire build around it.

Merlin the Tuna
2007-09-24, 07:10 PM
Notice how you skipped over "there are no Monks when we use this variant" :/.Taking away a class with bad class features does not mean that giving bad class features to another one is a good idea. Flurry is way out of place on a Swordsage, and doesn't jive well with the class -- just as it doesn't jive well with the monk.

Edea
2007-09-24, 08:57 PM
Ahh, it's the class feature itself that's the problem. (I thought that was a Monk/Swordsage balance argument, sorry). I guess so, but I sure used it a lot :smalltongue: .

TimeWizard
2007-09-26, 08:43 AM
So, I take it from Dhaever that [progressive incindiery blades] + Tiger Claw strikes and/or extra actions from Diamond Mind could be in the realm of dangerous. Good to know.

The Mormegil
2007-09-26, 09:36 AM
Know what, Diamond Mind counters are worth three of your manoeuvres. This being an obvious choice against a wizard (Adaptive Style = I survive your spells - hah!). Also, take teleport manoeuvres. And I don't mean only Shadow X from Shadow Hand, I mean also (and in particular) Leaping Flame from DW. This because it's a good thing being able to make AoOs against an archer that just hit you...as well as being able to get in melee reach of a spellcaster that just hit you with a ray spell. Adaptive Style to take it, again!
Also, being a swordsage, don't let you be bothered by ability damaging manoeuvres... you cannot use them more than once per encounter, probably, so don't take them. Even though a Strength Draining Strike could be useful against a wizard or so...
I recommand greatly NOT TAKING stone dragons manoeuvres, you don't need them at all. You may want to take the 9th level manoeuvre, but leave it be. 2d6 Con damage is not worth your time.
Tiger Claw is more intresting. Also, I'd take only a few strikes, a few boosts and for the rest I'll take counters over counters.

The best build I could make was all about Avalanche of Blades and Fool's Strike. He was the 2nd rank fighter and he just popped in and out the fight with Shadow Stride and Shadow Blink, landing a standard action strike (Diamond Nightmere Blade is the best you got) then an Avalanche of Blades, coupling each one of them with an X Blade. Then I stroke back quite every attack they made against me with Fool's Strike and Scorpion Parry (Quickcounter stance, use Fiery assault or Giant's stance if you like dealing damage). I had got UMD ranks and used a scroll of True Strike (as said before) instead of DNB against big bosses.
Also, fire resistance speaking, I had a Spellthief friend that helped a lot, but I suppose that's not your case...

Your manoeuvres are there so you can switch between them and use just the one you need for an encounter. Ready manoeuvres as if you were preparing spells!