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AOKost
2018-12-03, 03:04 AM
I've always wondered how you would go about statting the Special Substance called Cuendillar, also known as Heartstone from the novel series Wheel of Time by Robert Jordan. I'm trying to convert it to Pathfinder, but I'm not sure how to.

I've found a website that has a great description of the material: http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Cuendillar

For those that don't know about it, it is often described as:

"Cuendillar (pronounced KWAIN-de-yar), also known as heartstone, is an almost indestructible substance created during the Age of Legends (http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Age_of_Legends). It absorbs any force attempting to break it, including the One Power (http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/One_Power), and is believed to become stronger as a result. Cuendillar objects have been shown to be unharmed even by balefire (http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Balefire)."

Balefire goes so far as to remove things/people backwards through time itself, so a bit more powerful than Disentigrate, or possibly a Sphere of Annihilation...

Any suggestions?

Khedrac
2018-12-03, 03:50 AM
Step 1: decide which game system you want to stat it (any item) for and, if after helpful advice, find the appropriate sub-forum to post in.

Now a lot of system specific questions do get answered in this, the General Roleplaying forum, but providing statistics for anything really is one that shouldn't be; that said, reading what you wrote

It absorbs any force attempting to break it, including the One Power, and is believed to become stronger as a result. this substance doesn't appear to need statistics as such.

In D&D 3.X terms it has hardness "enough" and hit points "enough" - all you really need to know is that it is immune to damage - the moment you give it any statistics that will cease to be true. (This is one of the reasons that the Lady of Pain in Planescape does not have stats - she is not a creature, she is a plot device; stats would enable players to come up with ways to beat her.)

About the only remaining questions is "how much does it weight?" I.e. what's its density - so do the books say if it floats in water?

King of Nowhere
2018-12-03, 09:34 AM
I never liked cuendillar. It raises a few paradoxes.
For example, it says that trying to break it with the power will make it stronger. What does "stronger" mean, when it's already indestructible?
And time in wot is cyclic. History has happened before, many times, and eventually there is some cataclism acting as reset button. Except cuendillar is indestructible (the true power can break it, but it is a lenghty process. I don't see a forsaken smashing furniture just for it). So why isn't the world swimming in old cuendillar?
If egwene can turn a large chain in seconds, why not make more practical items? Balefire-proof cuendillar armor? Bridges? Buildings?

Cuendillar is only used once as a plot point. I think jordan introduced it in the first book because it seemed a cool idea, but then mostly forgot it, or had no uses

AOKost
2018-12-08, 11:39 PM
I never liked cuendillar. It raises a few paradoxes.
For example, it says that trying to break it with the power will make it stronger. What does "stronger" mean, when it's already indestructible?
And time in wot is cyclic. History has happened before, many times, and eventually there is some cataclism acting as reset button. Except cuendillar is indestructible (the true power can break it, but it is a lenghty process. I don't see a forsaken smashing furniture just for it). So why isn't the world swimming in old cuendillar?
If egwene can turn a large chain in seconds, why not make more practical items? Balefire-proof cuendillar armor? Bridges? Buildings?

Cuendillar is only used once as a plot point. I think jordan introduced it in the first book because it seemed a cool idea, but then mostly forgot it, or had no uses

I mostly play D&D 3.X and Pathfinder with copious helpings of a Homebrew system called Custom Characters. I pull Special Materials from every compatible material I come across for a personal Special Materials List, and always wanted to add Cuendillar.

I've homebrewed my own Cuendillar, and wrote it up as follows:

HEARTSTONE

~ Homebrew
The product of transmuting the right materials together to produce a semi-psi-crystal metal, but has the transparency of glass, with ever so slight dark hairs flowing through it giving it a dark undertone and without refracting light at all, making it appear somewhat dull and lackluster. The material has natural facets that make it even more effective for whatever use it is put to. The material is considered psionic crystal and metal, but is impervious to rust, and corrosion, as well as heat/warp metal and transmute earth. The transmutation process for creating heartstone is kept extremely secret by those that know how to make it. Besides being a focus for psionic abilities, it has an unheard of quality that makes it sought after by those that know of its existence.
It has the amazing quality of taking any damage it sustains and making it stronger and more resilient. An item made of heartstone starts with a hardness of 10 and double its hardness in hit points (20) per inch of thickness. Half of any hit point damage taken (if the item isn't Destroyed), are, in the instance after whatever dealt the damage, added to the items hardness permanently, and the hit points are restored to the new total of double the hardness. To destroy a Heartstone Item, you must reduce it's HP to 0 or less in one "attack".

For example, a longsword made of heartstone would initially start with 10 hardness, and 5 hit points. If someone manages to overcome the 10 hardness or by other means deal 4 hit points of damage to it. In the instance that the item retains 1 or more HP, it instantaniously transmutes/converts the energy intended to or that could possibly have harmed the object. Half of the damage taken is converted to Hardness, and a new HP total is calculated with the new Hardness, so the same Longsword would have a Hardness of 12, and and 24 HP / inch of thickness (with this example, the HP of the Longsword does not increase, but almost).

The last property of heartstone is that with the right magical and alchemical techniques, it can be coaxed to absorb the properties of other materials, permanently giving that item the specific properties of whatever Special Material is being 'added' to the Heartstoen. For example, heartstone could be infused with the properties of Mithral to overcome DR/Silver, and for its weight to be reduced by ½. Heartstone can only absorb the properties of any specific material once, so it couldn’t be infused with Celestium (Green Ronin Press Advanced Players's Guide) later to enhance the properties of Silver it already has, but it would gain a Good alignment, and it’s weight would be further reduced by ¼, since you’re using the better of the properties between Mithral and Celestium.

Requirements to create heartstone: Ability to cast 5th level transmutation spells, Craft: Alchemy 10 ranks. To further enhance the properties of heartstone with other materials, a Spellcraft check of the Transmutation school must be made, adding the Craft: Alchemy skill for a total. The DC of adding a property to heartstone is 20 + 2 for each property already added. For example: If a heartstone dagger has the Silver property of either Mithral or Alchemical Silver infused to it, it would take the on the ability to bypass the damage reduction of creatures that are resistant to everything but silver. Heartstone may take on any number of properties, but each property requires an equal amount of material (Mithral) equal to the weight of the item made of heartstone (using an iron item as the basis). The base material becomes a worthless powder, and all the material being sacrificeds properties are then infused into the heartstone, which takes the best properties infused into it. For example: a dagger of iron, transmuted to heartstome normally made of 1 pound. You would still need 1 pound of Mithral to infuse its properties into the heartstone, not an equal volume.

The Cost of this procedure in ritual components is 2,000 gp per material to be infused, plus the material to be infused cost. For example, if you were to wanting to infuse the properties of 3 materials into the heartstone, the ritual would cost 6,000 gp + (the cost of 1 lb of Mithral) + (the cost of 1 lb of Crystal, Blood) + (the Cost of 1 lb of Umbrite) and the DC checks may be made all at once, but at an increased DC equal to 20 + 2 per any other infusions previously successfully made, and + 2 for each substance to be infused in the current ritual.

It can initially be crafted from Primordial Clay that is transmuted in a specific way to become hard, but retains it's chaotic malleable essence within that can be further manipulated (Knowledge: Planes DC 30).

I try to make it hard to find and make, but not impossible. I wanted there to be the possibility of you destroying the object, but that it would become continually harder. I didn't give it any magic/antimagic properties because it's going to be 'so easy' to get them from other materials, and it already has so many fantastical properties in and of itself!

I have used it as the basis for a lot of metalic based hombrew artifacts, but I've never gotten anyone to give much of a 'good' rundown because everyone considers it to be "OP" when even the material in the books, while having it's uses, could/would also have it's own economical drain because you can't recycle Heartstone... It will always be the item it was transmuted into, or a destroyed version there-of. But my version doesn't transmute Iron into Heartstone, but rather uses 'Primordial Clay' and that can be an adventure in and of itself to find and all new lore.

I personally love the thought of a material that can continually becomes more durable, until it eventually becomes neigh indestructible... But, still destructible under the right circumstances! Though, much could be said about dropping the item into a 'weak' vat of acid, so that it automatically overcomes Hardness, but only dealing a small amount of damage (1 point less than your items full HP) every round initially would help with 'toughening it up' and preventing you from loosing your item in the first battle that someone tried to Sunder said item!

Hardness isn't everything in a Material, I know, but it sure has some great qualities in and of itself!

I know that Heartstone in the books does not literally take on the properties of anything in particular (that I can recall), but that's where my slight creativity comes in, and I specifically state that Heartstone is made from Primordial Clay, is that it has "Chaotic forces" still raging underneath it's surface, and for those that know how to manipulate those energies and have the right materials to perform the ritual(s) to do so, can, to I daresay that it would be 'cheapest' transfer all the materials you were going to infuse with it at the time of the item's creation. With all these things combined, would likely make it a minor artifact in and of it's own right before any sort of enchantment/enhancement might be placed upon it!

Just think of the intro to Diablo 3 (for those that have seen it) where there's something crashing to the planet... but it turns out to be something from somewhere else, having properies that defy known materials!

Mechalich
2018-12-09, 12:13 AM
I feel like the Wheel of Time RPG, which is d20 based, should have stats for this, somewhere, if you can find a copy.

AOKost
2018-12-09, 02:56 PM
I feel like the Wheel of Time RPG, which is d20 based, should have stats for this, somewhere, if you can find a copy.

I do not have a copy, but from what I've been able to find about it, it is mentioned, more in passing than any rules given to it. I think there are only 1 book for the entire "Wheel of Time" RPG 'series', but there was a "Web Enhancement" and 2 articles in Dragon Annual #6, but nothing that really dealt with Cuendillar, or at least from what I've read.

And I don't accept that it's "just a plot device", especially if people, even if it's a very limited few people are actively able to make/transmute the material.

AOKost
2018-12-09, 04:32 PM
I should also put into the "rules" of the material, that the material takes on the hardness to HP ratios of the 'best' material added, so if it obsorbs a material that has a Hardness to HP ration of 1/3 then the HP of the item would increase likewise going from "standard" 10 hardness and 20 HP / inch of thickness to 10 hardness and 30 HP / inch of thickness.

Likewise, if a material that had a Hardness to HP ratio of 1/4 would further increase the HP of the item.

ExLibrisMortis
2018-12-09, 08:31 PM
For the purposes of D&D and Pathfinder, cuendillar is similar to riverine: indestructible, except for a few spells. You have to decide what spells and effects will destroy it. Disjunction, wish, miracle, and reality revision can go on the list for sure, and artifact- or epic-level disintegrate (i.e. a sphere of annihilation, umbral blot, great wyrm pyroclastic dragon breath) as well. If you want more, simply go down the spell lists and look for appropriate spells.

AOKost
2018-12-10, 01:06 AM
For the purposes of D&D and Pathfinder, cuendillar is similar to riverine: indestructible, except for a few spells. You have to decide what spells and effects will destroy it. Disjunction, wish, miracle, and reality revision can go on the list for sure, and artifact- or epic-level disintegrate (i.e. a sphere of annihilation, umbral blot, great wyrm pyroclastic dragon breath) as well. If you want more, simply go down the spell lists and look for appropriate spells.

Those are all really great suggestions! I do want the material to be destructible, under the appropriate circumstances. Certain spells can overcome Hardness outright for example, and if they can do enough damage, they would destroy the object, but if they don't it only serves to make the item that much more 'durable'...

I find it funny after going through the Wheel of Time PDF I was able to find, that any "Power Wrought" item is considered to be "indestructible" by any means other than "Balefire" and only "Heartstone" could resist "Balefire"... This makes me think it has "anti-magic" properties, but I'd rather say that the items had become so 'durable' by that time (maybe even enured in time itself somehow) helped it 'survive' the attacks of Balefire, where as those that didn't survive were never remembered to begin with because they were removed from the the time-stream leading up to that point to begin with.

Maybe the material has a natural Spell Resistance or Nullification, making it hard to impossible to enchant/enhance. But I'm always against something being "impossible" to "enchant" or "enhance" with very few exceptions as in all of my campaigns, magic permeates everything to such an extent that everyone almost literally feels it's untapped potential pounding at the periphery of their consciousness just begging to unleash the endless amounts of energy the universe itself is made of...

Enchanted items are common among my 1st level players and characters as everything is ~1/3 the price since magic is so prevalent. Magitech is common place, but might not be easily accessible to the players until later levels.

Maybe give Heartstone a Saving throw equal to its Hardness even when items wouldn't normally be allowed one...