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View Full Version : An unconventional tank: the Pariah



stewstew5
2018-12-04, 12:16 AM
A concept/WIP for a low-health, low-armor tank

http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/S1bC-RLqCX

nickl_2000
2018-12-04, 08:46 AM
Taking a look, but you probably should mention that it's 5th edition.

stewstew5
2018-12-04, 09:21 AM
Taking a look, but you probably should mention that it's 5th edition.

I tagged it

nickl_2000
2018-12-04, 09:38 AM
Your table doesn't include the Exile bonus at level 17.

Untouchable
Typo in Preform. There is no such things as a touch attack in 5e. Either you are making an unarmed melee attack or you are making a spell attack with range touch. Either one would make sense in this case. Also, this triggers every time someone makes a melee attack against you, whether they hit or not. Multiclassing this class into something with a good armor class (Cleric for example) would be silly powerful. This could be stopped by making this ability only work if you are not wearing armor or wearing a shield.


Ability score increase Typo here and it doesn't follow the standard progression. Standard is 4th level, and again at 8th, 12th, 16th, and 19th level and I don't see any reason why you can't do that. Just make the 19th level ability and 19th level ability and the ASI at 19.


Paranoid - This can be simplified and standarized to use the same language as the barbarian
"if you are surprised at the beginning of combat and arenít incapacitated, you can act normally on your first turn"

Castaway - You need to define when it you choose to make the roll. Does it happen before or after the DM rolls? Do you know the result or not?

Tormented - This feels a little weird. Most of the time, you DCs for abilities are keyed off your classes main stat. So, tossing in charisma all of the sudden is unexpected. It's not without some other examples, but its still a little odd.

Stigma - The fluff here doesn't really match with the ability. A stigma where no one wants to be near you would have an effect that happens to them if they end within 5 feet of you. Maybe if they end their turn within 5 feet of you, they must make a DC save or have something happen to them.

Repulsion - Making a flat save here is a little odd to. Usually when there is a save it makes it different based on the attack. Additionally, as worded you could use this when attacked by a spell or ranged attack as well. Is that intended?

Bonus proficiencies - The armor prof here competes directly with the wary ability basicially making it useless. Just something to consider. Additionally, you are giving access to the greatsword, which is a strength based weapon and armor which is dex based. The combination of the two (plus the need for Wis for the class, and Con to survive) makes this an extremely MAD subclass.

Concealing masque - This again competes with wary, also it is confusing on what it gives. Is this a new calculation that allows you get an AC of 13+AC (ignoring dex)? If that is the case, why would anyone, ever bother with light armor? You wear a breastplate or Half-plate all the time. Personally if you point here is to give more AC, get rid of the proficiency in armor and give a new calculation of 13+wisdom mod instead of 10+wisdom mod. This accomplishes the same thing, but is way more simple.

Look away - Why wouldn't I do this every single turn? The worst that happens is all creatures within 30 feet are stunned (which is actually what I would hope for). The stunned condition is extremely, extremely powerful. This really needs to be limited to how often it can happen and it needs to not do much on a save. Additionally the save DC is weird.

controlled infection - How does this stop? Because as it is it's silly powerful, even for level 11.

Randuir
2018-12-04, 09:41 AM
Just writing some comments as I read through it.

Untouchable: I'd rewrite this one. I understand what you're trying to do here, but it's difficult to parse as ti currently is. Just split it out in the passive effect on being hit and the active effect you can perform rather than trying to cram it in the same paragraph. It's also unclear what happens to the damage dice at the levels listed. Do you add a d6, or do they increase in size? Finally, what do you mean by 'touch attack'? Those do not actually exist in 5e.

Wary: Is there a reason you've written this differently than the monk class feature? As it is it could technically stack with a lot of things that you don't want it to stack it with.

Paranoid: I assume you meant 'conscious' not 'sentient'?

Taboo: You should probably specify that you do not get to add proficiency in untouchable, though that seems odd. If you want to improve this ability, let it give advantage, and let the user just have proficiency when they get untouchable.

Tormented: Shouldn't this use WIS instead of CHA? This class seems to be WIS focused, not CHA focused.

Stigma: I don't see how the ability flows from the fluff.

Look away: Again the CHA modifier turns up. Though it might be flavorful, it hurts the class as it means it needs 4 ability scores to be effective.

Protection of the gods: How does this interact with wary?

Overall comments: I don't have the time to run the numbers to check if this is under or over-powered, but it definitely seems somewhat flavorful and interesting. The main comment I've got right now is that you should reconsider all your DC's. What is the reason you don't use the standard formula of 8+prof+ability(in this case WIS)?

Icecaster
2018-12-04, 10:52 AM
Hmm, interesting. Having just read the fluff, I'm a fan of the idea. As a player and a DM, I'm interested to see how this is demonstrated with the features. Personally, I'd like a little more fluff, but I'm assuming that's in the works. That said, let's move on to features.

Base Features
Hit Points are average, which is the idea, so that's good. Weapon proficiencies are very slim, which will cause pariahs to have a hard time getting people to want to target them in the first place, which obviously can defeat the purpose of tanking a little bit. Saving throws must be fixed. There are three "good" saves (Dexterity, Constitution, and Wisdom) and three "bad" saves (Strength, Intelligence, and Charisma). Every class gets exactly one good save and one bad save. I highly recommend fixing this. As for skills, it almost seems like you haven't put in a list, but I'm assuming you mean "Pick any two skills of your choice" or something similar. I would suggest rewording this to be more explicit.

Untouchable
Thematic and interesting, but there are a couple issues that I've noticed. First, every time a creature makes a melee attack against you gets cumbersome. I might have this occur once per turn or so, because with multiple creatures making multiple attacks (the goal being that these attacks are against you) and a save on each attack, it'll slow the game down rolling for each save then rolling for damage for each failed save. A little tedious. Second, the wording on the touch attack is incredibly vague. Does it take an action? Is it a part of the Attack action so you can combine it with other attacks if one multiclasses? What ability does the touch attack use? Are you proficient? Is it against the target's AC? I would consider revising this to be more clear on the specifics of what this "touch attack" entails. Third, keep in mind that this punishes creatures for targeting the tank, making it less likely that they will continue to do so.

Wary
Whoa, whoa, whoa. This has gotta be fixed to giving a new AC formula. Otherwise you can dip 1 level into Barbarian or Monk and add your Wisdom modifier to your Unarmored Defense, RAW, which is really, REALLY good.

Persecution Dice
Alright, interesting. Mechanically, this looks fine to me. Is there a reason it can't apply to attack rolls? It would also be nice to get about a sentence or two of fluff on how this relates to the theme. Does this relate to your own self-will? Is it your instinctive desire to live?

Ability Score Increase
I'm very confused why you've restructured this. Why did you move 19th to 18th? It seems like a needless and trivial restructuring of basic features that much of the game was balanced based on. Also, the table says you get the ASI at 8th, but the feature says 6th. Is it one or the other, or both? Is this an accident or on purpose?

Always Ready and Steadfast
Cool bonuses. No complaints here.

Paranoid
I had a minor seizure while reading this. I would highly recommend rewording this to something more clear that references specific game language like "While conscious and not incapacitated" or something along those lines.

Abhorrent
Thematically very cool. I would also recommend a rewording here. If I walk towards a pariah briefly, then walk towards someone else, is my movement speed still reduced? Or is it I can't walk that extra 10 feet towards the pariah? Adding a little tag like "the creature's movement speed is reduced by 10 feet until the end of their turn" would be a good step, if that's the idea of the feature.

Taboo
If this means what I think it means, I would say touch attacks made using the Untouchable feature, as opposed to Untouchable rolls, which is very vague.

Persecuted
Two feels like a lot, but I wouldn't say it's too much.

Absolution
This feels... Very different from the rest of the class. The Wisdom is A-OK but the Con feels pretty odd. Why are pariah, who have a d8 hit die, suddenly tougher than almost any mortal?

I have to leave at the moment, but I will come back to review the subclasses later. Good luck with the work, very interesting so far!

stewstew5
2018-12-04, 11:45 AM
I've made a couple fixes based off the suggestions so far:
http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/S1bC-RLqCX

stewstew5
2018-12-04, 11:53 AM
Ability Score Increase
I'm very confused why you've restructured this. Why did you move 19th to 18th? It seems like a needless and trivial restructuring of basic features that much of the game was balanced based on. Also, the table says you get the ASI at 8th, but the feature says 6th. Is it one or the other, or both? Is this an accident or on purpose?

Yea this was a mistake. thanks for pointing it out!

Third, keep in mind that this punishes creatures for targeting the tank, making it less likely that they will continue to do so.
Each subclass has different responses to this. The leper becomes a huge threat, the Martyr is a sort of solo-charge character and the outcast forces its self to be targeted.

Absolution
This feels... Very different from the rest of the class. The Wisdom is A-OK but the Con feels pretty odd. Why are pariah, who have a d8 hit die, suddenly tougher than almost any mortal?

yea I was running low on creativity dice when I wrote this one

Paranoid - This can be simplified and standarized to use the same language as the barbarian
"if you are surprised at the beginning of combat and arenít incapacitated, you can act normally on your first turn"
fixed