Revised Fighter - [PEACH]

[superninja109]

deleted.....

[JNAProductions]

Unarmed Fighting gives you a 1d8 Unarmed Strike at level 1. When Monks have a 1d4.

Second Wind relying on Superiority Dice (which you eventually get 14 of) is absolutely insane. That's an average of 371 HP restored every SHORT REST.

Action Surge being more frequent is also a big no-no. You get two per rest as soon as third level.

Greater Dueling is too good.
Line Holder is too good.
Charging Expert is finicky and not needed.
Greater GWF doesn't work as written. The average of a die roll is not an integer.

Superior Athlete doesn't specify what you get on advantage on. Checks, or saves?

Overall, you took the Fighter (a well-balanced class, if a touch bland for some people's taste) and made it stonking overpowered as hell.

Let's take a PHB Champion Fighter at level 11 and one of your Fighter's without subclass or maneuvers at the same level.

Both are Strength-based Heavy Armor wearers. Mountain Dwarves, with starting stats of 17 8 17 10 13 10.
They both raise Strength and Constitution by 1 at level 4, one or the other by 2 at 6th, and the other by 2 at 8th, ending with 20s in both.
They both have Full Plate and a Greatsword.

The Champion has Great Weapon Fighting and Defensive Fighting Styles. AC 19, +9 to-hit, 13.33 average damage on a hit. 125 HP.
Your Fighter has Great Weapon Fighting and Favored Weapon (Greatsword). AC 18, +10 to-hit, 14.33 average damage on a hit. 125 HP.

Champion probably wins init, thanks to Remarkable Athlete. Swings six times, due to Action Surge, hitting on a 9. 60% chance of hitting means we get 360% of 13.33 damage, or 48 damage.
Your Fighter then swings back, hitting on a 9, uses Action Surge TWICE in one round (you can do that, you see, with how you worded it) for 9 attacks or 540% of 14.33, or 77.4 damage. He also uses Second Wind, recovering 16.5 HP.

Next turn, the Champion swings three times, for 180% of one hit. 24 damage each round from here on out. Also has one Second Wind, so heals for 16.5 just the once.
Your Fighter has three Second Winds left, each healing 16.5, and has three attacks, dealing 180% of one hit, for 25.8 a round.

So, the Champion lasts four rounds before dying.
Your Fighter, in that time, takes 120 damage-not even enough to kill him assuming he DIDN'T use Second Wind. But, since he had four uses of it, he's only down 54 HP.

Now, to be fair, I did not factor in crits from the Champion. I also totally ignored your subclasses. So... Tilted in the favor of the Champ, and he lost hard.

[Potato_Priest]

This is really great! I love the way superiority dice work and your improvement to second wind is especially good. So far I’venotived just one thing: the champion’sstunning attack has a level prerequisite, while the similar battlemaster’s paralyzing strike does not. Is this intentional?

Also, eldritch knights seem weak (in comparison to the others). They should at minimum learn the spellcasting maneuvers for free, and weapon summoning could probably cost only one superiority die.

As for balance-before you use this, you should know that this makes the fighter better. Like, way way way better. I might even say that it is on-par-with-a-barbarian good. A lot of people are going to view fighters not sucking by comparison as sacrilege, so you may want to watch out for it.

Also, unarmed style is too good, as JNA points out.

[JNAProductions]

Oh-I will say, though. Don't be discouraged-I can get behind wanting to improve the Fighter.

I just think you went quite a bit overboard. To try to help you make this brew better, let me ask you this:

What do you think is wrong with or needs to be improved with the Fighter class?

[sandmote]

Fighter isn't weak, it's just typically bland. I suggest you rewrite this as a separate class. Take away the fighter's most powerful mechanics and start with much smaller superiority dice, which might let you nerf this down to a reasonable level.

General suggestions:
Start with much smaller superiority dice. Either end with far less or remove the bit allowing you regain them on a short rest.

Rebase the maneuvers off of eldritch invocations; give a good number of them level requirements, and have a few require a specific subclass. That way you have one list of maneuvers, instead of one for each subclass. At the very least, it'll help keep the subclasses in line with each other.

Don't connect your action surge to the superiority dice. Maybe grant a maneuver allowing an extra attack as part of the same action, but not action surge.

Specific stuff:
Intimidating Musculature is something already allowed by the base game.

Royal Knowledge should probably be expanded to nobility in general rather than royalty specifically.

Edit: I agree with JNA'a comments, especially the question of what you're trying to achieve.

[sandmote]

'[56898I'm going to respond to the part addressed to me first:

As for the shared list of maneuvers, I want to give out the maneuvers in bite-sized doses through the archetypes. If I just had a list of 40+ maneuvers, that might be too much and cause too much analysis-paralysis, so I wanted to group them with the archetypes that they best fit in order to help new players and underscore the archetypes. You can still get cross-subclass maneuvers by using ASI's. If the ASI-to-maneuver conversion doesn't quite work, though, would it help if you learned two new maneuvers instead of one.
See above for what I'm trying to achieve.
You're giving the player the same number of maneuvers either way. By breaking it down like the warlock, you'd be able to let the play choose their first maneuvers at one level, and the subclass granting a set of stronger options the next level. Starting with a shared pool of maneuvers would also make it easier to keep subclasses in line with each other


I just now see how many superiority dice you get compared to what a normal battle master gets. I kinda meant that to be the battle master's # of dice + the number needed to fuel each ability like second wind, indomitable, action surge. Any ideas on a specific number it should end with? I'm not really keen on them recharging on a long rest because the eldritch knight is based off of the warlock and regaining spell slots on a short rest.
If you're trying to grant more dice, maybe 8? Battlemasters can get quite a bit out of their base 6.


You'r probably right about better prerequisites but 'm not sure which. Which maneuvers need better prerequisites? I tried to make most of them even with the normal battle master maneuvers if they only expended one die.
I'm honestly not entirely sure. Certainly stronger ones, in order to reduce analysis-paralysis at lower levels. Maybe convert the greater fighting styles into high level maneuvers?


This is intended to be a separate option for players to use. If you want to be a fighter, you ask do you want to be a fighter or a revised fighter?
This is mostly an aside on my part, but I still think it would be easier to write a separate class that doesn't need to maintain the feel of a fighter while trying to balance a full blown system of superiority dice.

__________________


I tried to fix most of these. I modified the unarmed fighting style by changing the superiority die progression. Howvever, it should be pointed out that while monks get a lower die, they also get martial arts at 1st level.
That doesn't mean fighters should be stronger than monks on one the monk's core abilities.


Charging expert was intended either for (a) a charging build or (b) some crit-fishing build, so I like having it there. How could I make it less finicky?
Maybe be an automatic crit when you've moved 30 feet in a straight line and hit?


The fighter is, in theory supposed to be really versatile and accomodate the vast variety in fighting styles, tactics, etc that a martial character can use, but in the normal version of the class, fighters all seem the same. The main source of customization is from the battle master subclass, so I'm trying to expand on this.
The fighters at in the games I've played at have seemed okay, mostly by choosing different weapons and grabbing the appropriate feat. Fighters just get a lot of very mechanically simple (and therefore bland) abilities.

[sandmote]

I'm going to work on this, but I don't have an improved version just yet.
(EDIT: I consolidated the list but have yet to come up with a suggested list)
I might also make a "suggested" list of maneuvers for each subclass
At the very least, I personally find the complied list easier to read. It also makes it easier to compare the subclasses, as I can instantly see what maneuvers they share.


I am really torn on this. I want to make it so that a unarmed fighter is feasible and comparable to other fighters (I even changed a ton of the maneuvers so that they work with unarmed attacks). I am not content to just let monk handle all of the unarmed fighters because monks also have a ton of other thematic stuff that doesn't work for, say, your street brawler.
You mentioned on my paladin subclass that you don't have Xanathar's. I'd like to mention it contains one monk subclass with inspiration from Street Fighter, and another one that's basically a combative drunkard. Between those and the Tavern Brawler feat, I think street brawlers are fairly well covered. Although I'm not sure which part of the base monk clashes with a street brawler.


I think this may be more balanced than you think, though. The monk gets unarmored defense and unarmed strikes deal 1d4 and can make an unarmed strike as a bonus action if it takes the attack action. Meanwhile, my fighter gets second wind and a 1d6 unarmed strike.
The Monk's unarmored defense is usually less than 18 AC before the first ASI (and often lower until the 2nd one), so they are losing survivability for a bit more damage. Although to problem is at both extremes: starting at 17th level, you can pick up a shield and deal about the same damage as a greataxe. You're only giving up great weapon fighting for a benefit you never lose. Or if you stack it with Defense or Protection you get a flat benefit over a two handed weapon.


If you have any better ideas for making unarmed fighting feasible without making it too much like the monk, I am all ears. I fail to see the issue with the tavern brawler feat. Its a half feat, so you can set yourself up to get a +1 bonus to either your Strength or Constitution modifier when you take it, and it has more thematic elements than just unarmed strikes.


This was my original idea, but I though it was to OP at first. I guess I'll change it back for the ultimate crit-fisher build. I'm imagining some fighter with dasher, and the charger feat who just spams Damaging Strike. Fun stuff. Considering the number of attacks of opportunity you'd have to eat, that's probably fine (even with a Half-Orc).

[sandmote]

Being able to turn invisible, being immune to disease, not aging, ki, being able to catch any projectile, the entire 4 elements subclass. Basically just all of the "magical" stuff that the monk can do.
The four elements subclass is for a different theme, and not aging isn't a severe effect. I'm not sure why the rest of those abilities interfere with being a street brawler.


The problem with this is that then you have to wait till 4th level (or be a v human) to be a feasible unarmed fighter. i think I'll just change it to a flat 1d4 and add another unarmed greater fighting style that maybe upps the die. Otherwise, I feel like tavern brawler is just a feat tax for any unarmed fighter builds.
That did not occur to me. Yeah, make it a flat die, and require more maneuvers to get a larger one. That works nicely.


Unless you took Dasher. But then, you'd have to be 18th level so that's probably fine. I'm glad this is working out though. i actually kinda want to play a supercharger build now with a really cocky character who just charges right into everything.
Dasher doesn't prevent attacks of opportunity as currently written. I'm guessing you meant aggressive, which is still probably okay. If you really want to get far with this, try the Mobile feat. Partially for the increased movement, and partially so you don't take attacks of opportunity when leaving your last target behind. Alternatively, the AU College of Satire lets you get the effects of Dashing and Disengaging as a bonus action.


EDIT: By the way, to anyone who might have any input, do second wind and action surge look better now?
I would personally leave them the way they originally were, but the new versions are far less broken.

[sandmote]

Normal street brawlers don't turn invisible. But, besides that, I realize that the mechanics of the monk actually are better suited to this than I thought. Ki can represent "fighting spirit" and other effects could just be good training, exposure, etc. I guess this does work. But, i the fighter is supposed to be a blanket class, I think that unarmed fighting should be an option.
At 18th level, I wouldn't call you a "normal street fighter, and refluff you as being a master at stealth. and/or looking inconspicuous. But I admit I don't care about the fluff in the slightest, so that's probably beside the point.


I like second wind a bit better this way so that a tanky front-liner can prioritize healing more, but should I limit this more?
For action surge, I tried to basically eliminate action surge because it was too much considering all the other stuff this class gets. But, it needs something for 2nd level. Hence, the current ability. I didn't really have a very good idea for it and this is all I have. SHould I maybe just have you learn a maneuver now that they aren't tied to subclass?

I maintain my previous suggestion to grant the first maneuvers at 2nd level, and make the number known consistent with the warlock's eldritch invocations. I expect far less analysis-paralysis when maneuvers and subclasses become available at separate levels.
The new action surge and second wind would probably get more out of playtesting than anything I can add.

[sandmote]

I must have missed the first time you suggested the maneuvers being available 2nd level. I'll do this. Also the invocations tracking seems like a good idea. However, for 2nd level, I'm only going to put it at 1 so that you can leave one open for a subclass-specific maneuver because the subclasses don't actually give anything at 3rd level. Should they?

To be fair, I didn't specify the levels, merely saying to split them between two separate ones. Otherwise, I think it works like the warlock's pact boons, as most people switch to an eldritch invocation with a pact boon as a prerequisite at level three. But you probably should either have some weaker abilities granted by the subclass themselves, or move some of the critical maneuvers to such a role.

I noticed there is technically a rule against switching to an invocation with the boon as a prerequisite at 3rd level a few days ago:

Additionally, when you gain a level in this class, you can choose one of the invocations you know and replace it with another invocation that you could learn at that level.
But frankly, I've never seen anyone care about it this.

I'm not sure you need more at 3rd level, but if you decide to I'm suggesting war magic by default for the Eldritch Knight, Know Your Enemy and Student of War for the Battle master and Remarkable Athlete for the Champion. Not sure what to do with the Banneret. Maybe a variant of Know Your Enemy letting you compare your mental stats instead of your physical ones?

[sandmote]

Sounds like a good idea. I have added this to main document and will update the version here when I get the chance.
Maybe for the Banneret, maybe You get the benefits of the actor feat without the increased Charisma?

Or maybe something where each subclass has its own unique effect for when it crits?

I don't have any ideas for that many bonuses on a crit, and I'm worried crit fisher builds will end up significantly overpowered with many more bonuses.

Granting feats in 5e is generally taboo, and the therm Banneret typically implies a leader more than anything else. Maybe a weaker ability similar to Aura of Protection or giving some charisma skills either proficiency or expertise?