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Lilly
2005-01-11, 01:42 AM
... And rules lawyering. I like the "Oots of the month" thread without the rules lawyering.

Well I'm gonna start with stat guesses on the group:

Elan: Int- ~10 he can talk and comunicate and isn't a complete idiot.
Wis- ~-3. Attention span of a gnat. No common sense. No creativity when it comes to illusions.
Cha~ 18+ They've gained 2 levels, how likley is it that one of those included a stat bonus.
physical stats- Frankly my dear I don't give a wombat. For any of the guys.

Haley: Int- ~12-13. Smarter than Elan.
Wis- ~ 15. The only one with a sense motive.
Cha- ~16-17. Bluff, bluff, and umm bluff.

V: Int- ~18. No self-respecting wizard would be seen with anything else.
Wis- ~? I've gotten distracted and I don't want to finish this right now.


And the Haley-and-Elan-romance-thing, I think that they're exes. That's why there was the awakard pause in 109. Also Haley wants to know what a 18 charisma is worth since she probably saw it last at 17 or 16 depending on when they broke up.

evileeyore
2005-01-11, 10:18 AM
Okay I figure Rich is using ye olde 18-8 standard. *Every character gets to place one 18, one 16, one 14, one 12, one 10 and one 8. *Thus no minmaxing two 18 at the cost of all the other stats using some stat buy schem, no cheated rolls...


Therefore each character has one 18 in one stat. *Roy in STR, Haley in DEX, Belkar in CON, Durkon in WIS, Vaarsuvius in INT, and Elan in CHA. *This was the easy part.

Next they all have an 8 in one stat. *A little harder, but as they all probably have it in a different stat, it can be deduced. *You can argue, but this is how I see it...

Vaarsuvius STR, Durkon DEX, Haley CON, Belkar WIS, Elan INT, and Roy CHA.

Those were the easier stats to figure out. *The others I really did give thought to, but my thoughts may not match yours. *For instance *Roy has an MBA, so many might give him a 16 INT. *I didn't. *I gave him a 16 CON (more value to a fighter) and a 14 INT. *In my version Roy's "dump stats" are CHA and DEX (heavy armor). *Some could argue for CHA and WIS, but I made CHA and WIS Belkar's dump stats, and INT and WIS Elan's so I had to take care juggling things. *Anyway Look at the shiny chart! *(look, look, look at the distracting chart...)



Stat Roy Durkon Haley Elan Belkar Vaarsuvius
STR 18 12 10 14 16 08
DEX 10 08 18 16 14 12
CON 16 14 08 12 18 10
WIS 12 18 14 10 08 16
INT 14 10 16 08 12 18
CHA 08 16 12 18 10 14



As you can tell I love decostructing things to see how they work... *this naturally translates into gaming...

Cubey
2005-01-11, 10:45 AM
Did you take racial modifiers into consideration?

Also, I'd disagree with some of the numbers - in one of the comics (EDIT: #128 to be exact) Vaarsuvius says his/her CHA stat is ... (Haley didn't let the wizard finish, but I think s/he meant abyssmal), which I hardly translate to 14. Not to mention that the mind flayer wanted to eat Roy's brain, not Vaarsuvius's - so he must have an INT (or, arguably, INT + WIS) score better then the elfie.

My first post, wee...

Scorpina
2005-01-11, 11:06 AM
Not necesarrilly. Yes, a character with a higher Int and Wis would have more nutritional value for a Mind Flayer, but that dosen't mean that's what he prefers to eat...

Freeman333
2005-01-11, 06:42 PM
I stick with my previous statement about Belkar's Wis: with an Owl's Wisdom, he could cast Cure Serious Wounds, a third-level spell. So, he had to have a Wis of at least 13 after the spell was cast (Wis being the primary stat for ranger spell-casting), meaning, since 3.5 Owl's Wisdom grants a +4 to Wis, his Wis could have been no lower than 9 to begin with. Note that this isn't low enough to have a Wis penalty--so Belkar's problems with perception and empathy would be due more to simple ineptitude rather than innate deficiency.

If it weren't for this, I'd agree with Belkar's Wis being 8 or lower--he sure acts like someone with a 5 or worse.

I'd agree with Cubey's comment about V's Cha, as well. V doesn't seem to have much in the way of "people skills", and as an intellect-focused spellcaster I imagine Cha wouldn't have been much of a priority for him (assuming that the characters in Oots get to "create" themselves, which is what it seems like to me).

Kish
2005-01-11, 07:33 PM
Haley: [...]
Wis- ~ 15. The only one with a sense motive.
Considering she apparently thinks Lord Tyrinar will actually keep his word and let her father go if she pays him off, and she bought Roy's story about king giants (whatever he says about natural 20s), I'm inclined to put her Sense Motive rating only marginally above the rest of the group, if that.

Christian
2005-01-12, 08:20 AM
[Belkar's] Wis could have been no lower than 9 to begin with. Note that this isn't low enough to have a Wis penalty ...

Actually, 9 Wis is -1.

;)

Starbuck_II
2005-01-12, 09:04 AM
Stat Roy Durkon Haley Elan Belkar Vaarsuvius
STR *18 *12 * * 10 * *14 * *16 * *08
DEX *10 *08 * * 18 * *16 * *14 * *12
CON *16 *14 * * 08 * *12 * *18 * *10
WIS *12 *18 * * 14 * *10 * *08 * *16
INT *14 *10 * * 16 * *08 * *12 * *18
CHA *08 *16 * * 12 * *18 * *10 * *14

Hmm going by evileeyore's way...
factoring in Lilly...
I have not factored in level 4 and 8 ability bonus.
I have now facrored in level 4 and 8 ability.

Roy:
Str 17 He is semi-awesome strong
Dex 10 He isn't quick
Con 12 He has average health
Wis 14 He has a good sense
Int 14 He could be a wizard, but he just likes swords
Cha 13 He has a semi-good party face

Roy chose to lower his Con to raise his Wisdom and cha. Granted he has a okayCon, but he could live it.
14/14/12 Int/Wis/Cha is why the IllIthid that Roy was a balanced meal. Sure he has only int, but he has a lot more Wisdom than V and Cha.
I added 1 points from leveling to Cha for his party face. One to Strength.

V Before racial adjust:
Str 12 * Dex 12 * *Con 14 * Wis 12 INT 18 *Cha 08
V after racial:
Str 12 He's average in str,
Dex 14 Good dex for an elf
Con 12 He is healthy
WIs 12 He has okay Wisdom, but not great
INT 20 *He is super smart
Cha 08 And he has low people skills.

V has a great Int, but his Wisdom is only okay.(above average is just okay). His brain has loads of knowledge, but not very filling (only okay Wisdom) and below average people skills.
V I think would add to his Int by 2.

Belkar
Str 16 Dex 14 Con 15 Wis 09 INT *12 Cha 12
Belkar After Racial:
Str 14 He has good str
Dex 16 He is quick and great at it.
Con 16 He is healthy, exactly great
WIs 10 He is average in Wisdom
INT *12 He has a little smarts (not dumb)
Cha 12 He has a okay face in diplomacy if he ever chose it

Belkar has okay Int, but his wisdom is lacking. Also very angry... so people skills while okay are spicy.
He added one point in Wisdom to have 10. And one piunt in Con to have more life.

Durkon:
Str 10 Dex 10 Con 14 WIs 18 INT * 12 Cha 14
After racial stats:
Str *12 He okay in strength
Dex 10 he has little need for dex with Full plate
Con 14 He can take a hit and keep on ticking.
WIs *18
INT * 12
Cha 14

He has loads of Wisdom so he is filling, good Cha, but knowledge he be lacking compared to Roy so bland... He would add 2 to Strength to fight good.

Elan: Most constroversial... I think he is plenty smart, but Wisdom he lack... He is like Belkar but less angry.

Str 12 He can fight okay
Dex *16 He can dodge great (needs in light armor)
Con 12 Okay health
Wis 10 Average Wisdom (can be taken as low by onlookers)
Int 12 He is okay Intelligence
Cha 18 He has awesome Charisma.

He was a Diet coke for the Illithid because while he has Intelligence, the low wisdom makes it taste not as great, but he is sugary due to his good Charisma. I think he would add to Con to stay alive longer, but on second look he has 18 Charisma possibly.

Haley: Hard to pinpoint...

Str 12 Okay Str
Dex *16 Great Dex like Elan
Con 12 Good Con
Wis 12 Okay Wisdom
Int 14 good smart girl
Cha 14 Good Charisma

What is important is all your mental skills so I figured she was the most balanced second to Roy. Which was why it was tasty, but too sweet.
Her Intelligence and skills helped her with a sense Motive check. While I questioned her WIsdom; it being lower by 2 is only way I can understand Roy being attacked.
Haley would add to Con to have more life. After all a rogue's life is dangerous.

Freeman333
2005-01-12, 02:06 PM
Actually, 9 Wis is -1.

;)


Oh yeah. What the heck am I thinking? That's what I get for posting from work where I don't have my books around to check things in...

Shurdus
2005-01-12, 04:04 PM
How does it help to know what their stats ae? They probably do not even have stats worked out, so why bother?

Lilly
2005-01-13, 01:15 AM
Hey, it's fun! For the people who like this sort of stuff.

They know they have stats (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=28) And Elan's cha is 18.

Muisje
2005-01-13, 09:04 AM
Or Haley thinks it's 18. ;)

The_Shadow
2005-01-14, 10:53 PM
From the illithid strips, we also know for a fact that V has "a delectable 18 Intelligence".

So evidently s/he had a 16 before racial adjustment.

Kish
2005-01-14, 11:16 PM
From the illithid strips, we also know for a fact that V has "a delectable 18 Intelligence".

So evidently s/he had a 16 before racial adjustment.
Elves get +2 Dexterity, not +2 Intelligence. (Unless s/he is from that subrace which gets +2 Intelligence, but there's no evidence of that.)

Scorpina
2005-01-15, 12:20 PM
I think they, being the stereotypes that they are, will most likely all have 18 in the prime stat for their class: Strength for Roy (and possibly Belkar), Dexterity for Haley (and possibly Belkar), Intelligence for V., Wisdom for Durkon and Charisma for Elan...

Duskrider_Moogle
2005-01-15, 05:03 PM
Roy's strength is 17, actually (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=38).

GeeVee
2005-01-15, 05:17 PM
Where does it state that all hits did exactly 1 point of strength damage?

Duskrider_Moogle
2005-01-15, 05:30 PM
Where does it state that all hits did exactly 1 point of strength damage?

Uh, I guess it's possible that they all did 1 and one seventeenth, or that Roy has a strength of 34 and they all did 2 points each, or that they do 1d2 points of damage and he got sixteen 1s and a 2...

But, Keith Rich's penchant for absurdity nonwithstanding, each hit doing one point of strength damage seems most likely.

The_Shadow
2005-01-15, 09:33 PM
Elves get +2 Dexterity, not +2 Intelligence. *(Unless s/he is from that subrace which gets +2 Intelligence, but there's no evidence of that.)

D'oh! I knew that. Honest. :(

As for who has 18's where... it would certainly be symmetrical if Belkar had an 18 Con.

AtomicKitKat
2005-01-16, 07:47 AM
First post here, been reading only this sub-forum(Comics) for about a month. I think it's possible that 17 is Roy's Dexterity(You cannot move at 0 Dexterity either. At 0 Strength you cannot manipulate objects) Of course, it's just possible that he has 10 dexterity and he succeeded on 7 of the saves...

pumpkinetics
2005-01-16, 07:39 PM
...except Durkon said that roy was stuck with a strength of 0 from the poison

DrDoom
2005-01-17, 07:38 AM
Well, being the tough guy that he Roy is (good fort-saves), he would easily have succeeded in some of the saves, so maybe not all of the seventeen "hits" made him loose ST.
BUT: If he gets poisoned and his ST drops to zero, all further poisoning will have no effect. So you cant deduct anything from the fact that he was poisoned 17 times.

Invariel
2005-01-18, 08:41 AM
Actually, since succeeding in the fort save nulls the poison, it means that the trap attempted to poison him more than seventeen times. Only seventeen succeeded, and they probably brought his strength score to zero (or lower, which has no effect, as mentioned above).

evileeyore
2005-01-18, 05:17 PM
Did you take racial modifiers into consideration?

Also, I'd disagree with some of the numbers - in one of the comics (EDIT: #128 to be exact) Vaarsuvius says his/her CHA stat is ... (Haley didn't let the wizard finish, but I think s/he meant abyssmal), which I hardly translate to 14. Not to mention that the mind flayer wanted to eat Roy's brain, not Vaarsuvius's - so he must have an INT (or, arguably, INT + WIS) score better then the elfie.

My first post, wee...


No I didn't take racial bonuses into consideration. Nor did i take leveling, level drains, boosts from magic items, or permanent boosts from Wish or the like.

My chart was made ages ago, and not updated, hance I still have V as having a CHA that ain't to shabby, when it should probably be like 8.

Good first post by the way.



No if Tom Rich is using something other than ye olde 8-18 standard (which is really only my groups standard...) but something like a 9-17, or heh even something crazy like point buy, then the only way to reasonably determine their stats is though time. Lots of it. We'll just have to wait until far more stats have been revealed.

I still stand by most of the stats as I have them, and if I allow for stat overlap, I can easily fix V's CHA score..

I still feel that the 18's are where they should go. A STR of 1 is close enough to zero in my book... and the poison may have done more or less than 1 STR damage each time. COuld have hit his CON and DEX too...

Callista
2005-01-19, 01:53 AM
Re. the poison: One container of poison is marked "Poison", the other "Even Nastier Poison". So at least one of them would have to do more than 1 damage a pop.

We know some of their Alignments too...

All but Belkar are either Neutral or Good on the G/E axis, because they were affected by Unholy Blight in #11.

Class restrictions:
Belkar cannot be Lawful (if he's taking a level in Barbarian).
Elan cannot be Lawful (he's a bard).
Durkon must be within one step of Thor's alignment. Durkon must be either Neutral or Good because he can turn undead.

From the comics:
Elan is "the Good twin, not the Neutral twin".
Durkon is Lawful ("Being a dwarf is about doing your duty, even if it makees you miserable").
If the requirement to be "of pure heart" means Good and not just "non-evil", then Elan and Roy are both Good; and so is either V or Haley.
V is probably Lawful (#128, where he talks about the personal discipline needed to be a wizard) and at least Neutral on the L/C axis
Haley is not lawful (she uses bluff and thievery way too much).

Roy is LG (Belkar says he's "Lawful Stupid" when he had his Strength drained by the poison; and besides, his dad plays canasta with archons... meaning his dad is probably Good too.)

So, the possibilities:
Roy: LG
Varsuuvius: LG, LN, TN, NG
Haley: NG, CG, TN, CN
Durkon: LG, LN
Belkar: CE, NE
Elan: CG, NG

My guesses:
Roy: LG
Varsuuvius: LN
Haley: CG
Durkon: LG or LN (really can't decide...)
Belkar: CE
Elan: CG

Aidan305
2005-01-19, 06:57 AM
I worked out today that V is tenth level since she started off at level 7-9. However, during the comic s/he has gained two levels. The first level that s/he gained gave him/her a new spell l-e-v-e-l which means that she must have started at eighth level since a wizard gains levels at seventh and ninth. Therefore, the first time in the comic s/he leveled up s/he must have become ninth level and the secod time in the town s/he became tenth level.

Freeman333
2005-01-19, 03:23 PM
*Sniff*...All the over-analysis...the nit-picking, the detail-finding, the rules-sifting...you all make me so proud to be a nerd! *Waaaah*

Seriously, it's so, so sweet to be a geek in the internet age. Just imagine, before the internet, we all would have been unable to share our nit-picking with others, secluded and isolated in the prisons of our own minds, never knowing there was a whole community of like-minded nerds out there wishing there was someone they could talk to about these sorts of things...

(Of course, that's not taking into account the fact that without the internet most of us would never have read OotS in the first place, but hey, never accuse me of paying attention to the facts.)

pumpkinetics
2005-01-19, 06:11 PM
I worked out today that V is tenth level since she started off at level 7-9. However, during the comic s/he has gained two levels. The first level that s/he gained gave him/her a new spell l-e-v-e-l which means that she must have started at eighth level since a wizard gains levels at seventh and ninth. Therefore, the first time in the comic s/he leveled up s/he must have become ninth level and the secod time in the town s/he became tenth level.

The entire party is tenth level. If you take into account that Haley gained sneak attack at the previous level-up, That would have made her at 9th level then, and therefore 10th level now.

Kish
2005-01-19, 06:12 PM
Re. the poison: One container of poison is marked "Poison", the other "Even Nastier Poison". So at least one of them would have to do more than 1 damage a pop.

Or have a higher DC on the saving throw. Or affect both Strength and Constitution while the first poison just affects Strength. Or...I'm sure there are other possibilities.


We know some of their Alignments too...
[...]

Also, Elan's opposite, Nale, is LE. Zz'dtri was also evil, while Durkon's opposite, Hilgya, is the least evil of the Linear Guild. Bearing that in mind, I'd say...

Agree on Roy being LG, Haley being CG, Elan being CG, and Belkar being CE. Vaarsuvius I'd call LG, and Durkon I'd call LN.

Aidan305
2005-01-19, 08:48 PM
I'd disagree with you on V's allignment and Durkon's allignment.

I think that D is more LG than anything else and V's occasional power-mad tendencies put him/her into NG

Lilly
2005-01-19, 08:57 PM
Nitpick: Haley's getting on the horse backwards.

Kish
2005-01-19, 09:09 PM
I think that D is more LG than anything else and V's occasional power-mad tendencies put him/her into NG
Being power-mad has nothing to do with being or not being Lawful.

Callista
2005-01-20, 12:20 AM
True. In fact, wielding power in an orderly, controlled fasion is a very lawful trait.

However, being power-hungry is a nongood trait at best... not that you can't be flawed, Good, and power-hungry. V is just so focused on his magic that I can't see him really going out of his way to help people (though he does it if he has the opportunity).

As for Durkon: if Helgya is his opposite, she's CE, leaning towards CN. So Durkon should be LG, leaning towards LN.

Yuki Akuma
2005-01-20, 11:59 AM
I think Vaarsuvius is good. (S)He helps people when (s)he can (as shown in the potion shop strip)... There just haven't been any chances to help people so far, as they spent most of the comic inside a castle.

Lilly
2005-01-20, 12:28 PM
Seeing as they have opposite alignments, on at least one scale, in the linear guild, what is a drow's typical alignment? V is opposite that in some way.

DrDoom
2005-01-20, 12:44 PM
As for Durkon: if Helgya is his opposite, she's CE, leaning towards CN. So Durkon should be LG, leaning towards LN.
I dont think that they have opposite alignments. Plus, she cant be evil, as she casts healing spells (ok, she could have prepared even if she was evil, but I dont think so). Their relationship broke due to their differences on duties vs. personal freedom (ie, Order vs. Chaos), not on helping other people (ie, good vs. bad).

@Drow alignment
They are neutral evil, as they follow the rules strictly (if witnesses are present), but if there are none, they will break the rules to fit their own benefits.

Freeman333
2005-01-20, 01:29 PM
Well, Helgya's definitely Chaotic something, since she rejected the lawful-based culture of the dwarves (she didn't just ignore it--that would be Neutral--but she rejected it wholesale and actively works contrary to it, which I'd say is Chaotic). She also tried to poison her husband, whose only crime was liking her, and I'd say that falls squarely in the Evil category. However, her behavior towards Durkon seems less destructive and more self-motivated (an Evil character might have tried to manipulate him to prevent him from rejecting her, using mind-controlling magic or other tricks, but Helgya accepts his decision, though somewhat unwillingly). I don't think it's unrealistic that she would have healing spells prepared--she was the only healer in the Guild, and she was pretending to be good originally. I haven't read Deities and Demigods recently, so I can't recall exactly what Loki's alignment was, but as a cleric her alignment has to be within one step of her deity's. (We won't mention the fact that Thor seems to be pretty clearly Chaotic Good, and Durkon seems pretty clearly Lawful Good. Because that would be silly.)

Anyway, my estimation for Helgya is that she was Chaotic Evil at one point, probably up until she joined the Linear Guild. However, after her experiences with Durkon, she seems to be switching over to Chaotic Neutral. I'm sure we'll see her again, and I think her role in her next appearance will determine beyond much doubt what her alignment is. I suspect either she'll be driven deeper into evil by the pain of Durkon's rejection, and be seeking revenge; or she'll be so deeply affected by Durkon's admonition that she'll have drifted further into neutrality or even good, though I doubt she'll end up Lawful.

Peldor
2005-01-20, 01:52 PM
Nitpick: Haley's getting on the horse backwards.

Not really. She's mounting on the horse's right side, so her right foot goes in the stirrup first.

Callista
2005-01-20, 02:48 PM
I think Vaarsuvius is good. (S)He helps people when (s)he can (as shown in the potion shop strip)... There just haven't been any chances to help people so far, as they spent most of the comic inside a castle.

Hmmh... he certainly has Good tendencies, though his reaction to Elan's Wizard costume seems more LN than LG. I picked LN just because I really think V, as a wizard, thinks more about his magic than anything else...

Well, if my "pure heart" hypothesis is true, then that would mean that the entire Order of the Stick, except for Belkar, is Good-aligned. Unless Haley isn't... but I think she is. More C than G, maybe, but I'd really guess CG.

AtomicKitKat
2005-01-20, 05:07 PM
V is probably Neutral Good, trending towards Lawful.

Nale's girlfriend is most likely a Devil(to remember the difference, Devi*L*s are *L*awful Evil), possibly an Erinyes(despite her more bat-like wings) since a Chaotic Evil demon is less likely to work with a Lawful Evil character(unless they have very high hopes of turning him Chaotic, maybe) Sad to say, I only have 3.5, so I can't tell you which arrow Haley should have shot her with. :P

Lilly
2005-01-20, 05:23 PM
Okie dokie!

Sabine is what ever has Archfiends (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=62). *She can also drain levels. *She also apparantly has some sort of shapechanging ability, so succubus is looking more likley. *

And Giant has already said that the OotS dieties aren't necissicarily the same as in dieties and demigods. Durkon is a cleric of thor and he's pretty obviously L*. And in dieties and demigods thor is CG.

No one except Belkar was unaffected by unholy blight (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=11), and they all had some sort of "sickened"

Guesses:
Belkar- CE - He's been discribed as psychopathic, and most everybody thinks CE=psychopatic.
Durkon- LG - He's too nice to be neutral and he's definatly upholding lawful dwarfness
Elan- CG - He's a mommy's boy (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=50)
Haley- CG - Robin hood is CG based on the PHB, why wouldn't she be?
Roy- LG - Lawful and affected by unholy blight that much = LG
V- LG or NG - Not chaotic, has a conscious, and too woried about magic to care much for law vs. chaos.

Scorpina
2005-01-20, 05:31 PM
I'd been working witht he assumption that Sabine was a Succubus...

Freeman333
2005-01-20, 06:49 PM
I think it's deliberately left vague (to discourage exactly the kind of nit-picking we're indulging in, tee-hee) but yeah, succubus seems to match the evidence. Could be some new breed of fiend not in the MM, though, or even a fiend with class levels that grant her extra powers.

Aidan305
2005-01-20, 06:52 PM
Not really. *She's mounting on the horse's right side, so her right foot goes in the stirrup first.

But you mount horses on the left side. The left is always right and the right is always wrong.

Freeman333
2005-01-20, 06:53 PM
The ri...the le...is alway...

:P

That's it. I'm riding the dauschund from now on.

eldersphinx
2005-01-20, 10:16 PM
Also, Elan's opposite, Nale, is LE. *Zz'dtri was also evil, while Durkon's opposite, Hilgya, is the least evil of the Linear Guild. *Bearing that in mind, I'd say...

Agree on Roy being LG, Haley being CG, Elan being CG, and Belkar being CE. *Vaarsuvius I'd call LG, and Durkon I'd call LN.

So if Elan is CG because Nale was LE, and Durkon is LN because Hilgya was leaning towards CN, and Belkar is known to be CE...

... does that mean that Yikyik is some sort of LG potential-paladin? ??? * ;D

Kish
2005-01-20, 10:32 PM
So if Elan is CG because Nale was LE, and Durkon is LN because Hilgya was leaning towards CN, and Belkar is known to be CE...

... does that mean that Yikyik is some sort of LG potential-paladin? ??? ;D

No. He was opposite Belkar in other ways (i.e., he was a kobold), and probably the same alignment--like Hilgya was the same race and class as Durkon, but the opposite alignment.

evileeyore
2005-01-20, 10:46 PM
Definitely Yikyik was the only Good member of the Linear Guild. Probably Lawful to boot.

Alignments according to me (the guy who brought you bad Stat blocks...):

Roy: LG. Definitely.
Belkar: CE. I was leaning toward CN, but chasing Elan down for the XP was the defining Evil moment in mind.
Haley: CG. I want to say CN, as stealing and lying to comrades is not Good, but she is under duress. In my games she would be getting warning signs of impending alignment change...
Vaarsuvius: LG. Possibly borderline LN, with the obsession for Power for Power's sake. But we haven't seen anything to indicate anything other than pure Goodness.
Elan: CG. He is too simple for anything else.
Durkon: LG. He is a dwarf on a mission. A mission for Good.


The Linear Guild:

Nale: LE. Plotter, planner, politician. Deliberately Evil.
Sabine: LE. Aniother plotter, but she likes to get her hands dirty. Deliberately Evil.
Helgya: CE. Selfish and impetoius to the core. Evil, but in a "they got in the way" evil.
Thog: CE. Thog is too simple for deliberate Evil, and is probably just amoral. He just doesn't know any better.
Zz'dtri: NE. Z just didn't have the spark of extremism. Thus relegated to Nuetraldom. Besides as a PowerGamer it is imperitive to aviod pigeonholing on the L/C axis...
Yikyik: LG. Ranger who infiltrated the party to stop their evil ways, was foiled by the criminal genius... err psycopathic idiot Belkar...

AtomicKitKat
2005-01-21, 01:29 AM
Thog might be Chaotic Neutral, possibly even True Neutral(note that he still follows Nale's orders somewhat) He just doesn't know any better.

Sundog
2005-01-21, 09:59 AM
No, he's too callous to be merely neutral. Look at what he did to the poor Sylph...and not a twinge of remorse in sight...

Starbuck_II
2005-01-21, 12:02 PM
Definitely Yikyik was the only Good member of the Linear Guild. *Probably Lawful to boot.

Alignments according to me (the guy who brought you bad Stat blocks...):

Roy: *LG. *Definitely.
Belkar: *CE. *I was leaning toward CN, but chasing Elan down for the XP was the defining Evil moment in mind.
Haley: *CG. *I want to say CN, as stealing and lying to comrades is not Good, but she is under duress. *In my games she would be getting warning signs of impending alignment change...
Vaarsuvius: *LG. *Possibly borderline LN, with the obsession for Power for Power's sake. *But we haven't seen anything to indicate anything other than pure Goodness.
Elan: *CG. *He is too simple for anything else.
Durkon: *LG. *He is a dwarf on a mission. *A mission for Good.


The Linear Guild:

Nale: *LE. *Plotter, planner, politician. *Deliberately Evil.
Sabine: *LE. *Aniother plotter, but she likes to get her hands dirty. *Deliberately Evil.
Helgya: *CE. *Selfish and impetoius to the core. *Evil, but in a "they got in the way" evil.
Thog: *CE. *Thog is too simple for deliberate Evil, and is probably just amoral. *He just doesn't know any better.
Zz'dtri: *NE. *Z just didn't have the spark of extremism. *Thus relegated to Nuetraldom. *Besides as a PowerGamer it is imperitive to aviod pigeonholing on the L/C axis...
Yikyik: *LG. *Ranger who infiltrated the party to stop their evil ways, was foiled by the criminal genius... *err psycopathic idiot Belkar...

Durkon: isn't LG.
He is only there helping the lads because he has been sent to the human lands and has nothing better to do.
At best he is Lawful Neutral. Doesn't care where he is sent just likes following his God. He chose to turn with positive energy (as a nuertal can if he chosen)
I agree with:
Roy: LG. Definitely.
Elan: CG. He has a mum that taught him right from wrong...he also has a moral compass that leads the way.
Haley: CN. She stealing only to help her father (a Nuetral act). She likes Elan so that is a bonus but its still neurtal... she seems like a nice girl... But I'll have to give her Nuetral till she proves herself.
Belkar: CE. He is Evil, but with mild acts of nuetral too (never good yet lol)
I disagree with yur idea of V:
Vaarsuvius: LN. We haven't seen V act good. Good is not the absence of evil. Good is the pursuit of good.
She only has the pursuit of laws and magic with her.

Now the Linear Guild:
Yikyik: CN. Unlike Belkar he just likes to fight. Now killing, but fighting. Belkar was his only freind... :'(
Zz'dtri: LE. He was Lawful with his dicipline, but his demeanor was evil. He was what V will be if he shifts ever so slightly.
Thog: CN. Thog is Neurtal, but Nale has told him to kill a creature before it acts is smart. So he slayed hundreds that have stood in his way because he feared they might attack. (Nale was smart to tell him that)
Helgya: CE but now CN. Selfish and impetoius to the core, but lately she has stopped some of her evil. However, just stopping your actions ofevil isn't enough to make her good.
Sabine: LE. She has been sent to cause trouble. She knows the laws of her plabnes and they say to do it.
Nale: LE. He has a good planning ability, but he chose evil for his way.

Freeman333
2005-01-21, 12:56 PM
Yeah, the whole "Yikyik as goodguy" thing kind of breaks down when you consider how he stabbed Belkar numerous times just for "leaving his threatened area". Kind of hard to justify that as part of his secret plot to overthrow the Linear Guild (unless a central part of his plan was to have Belkar turn his head into a jaunty, stylish hat...)

DrDoom
2005-01-21, 07:58 PM
Oh, and Sabine is definitivly a succubbus, which means she is Chaotic Evil.

Starbuck_II
2005-01-22, 11:06 AM
Oh, and Sabine is definitivly a succubbus, which means she is Chaotic Evil.
What if she is a Erinye?

Those are Fallen Angels (angelic Succubuses/the Devil Succubusses/ Meaning like Succubus's but Lawful)

evileeyore
2005-01-22, 10:58 PM
Yeah, the whole "Yikyik as goodguy" thing kind of breaks down when you consider how he stabbed Belkar numerous times just for "leaving his threatened area". *Kind of hard to justify that as part of his secret plot to overthrow the Linear Guild (unless a central part of his plan was to have Belkar turn his head into a jaunty, stylish hat...)


He simply recognized Belkar as being evil. Just becuase Yikyik is LG doesn't mean he is smart enough to avoid antagonising Evil...

Quick look at the shiny post!

Yuki Akuma
2005-01-24, 06:54 AM
What if she is a Erinye?

Those are Fallen Angels (angelic Succubuses/the Devil Succubusses/ Meaning like Succubus's but Lawful)

Erinye have feathered wings. Also, they don't have natural polymorphing powers, and can't drain levels. Succubi, on the other hand, have leathery wings, can change into any Humanoid, and can drain levels.

Need more proof? The highest of the demons are "Arch" demons. The highs of the devils are "princes".

Kish
2005-01-24, 08:43 AM
Need more proof? The highest of the demons are "Arch" demons. The highs of the devils are "princes".
Except that's backwards. :P Asmodeus: Archdevil. Mephistopheles: Archdevil. Demogorgon: Demon Prince.

Yuki Akuma
2005-01-24, 09:17 AM
Except that's backwards. *:P *Asmodeus: Archdevil. *Mephistopheles: Archdevil. *Demogorgon: Demon Prince.

And I woulda gotten away with it, too, if it weren't for you meddling druid...

Okay, fine, I messed up on the fluffy side of things. But still, I got the crunchiness right...

AtomicKitKat
2005-01-24, 02:18 PM
I think it's a bit mish-mashed. Nale is Lawful Evil, and we all know Devils and Demons prefer to hang with their own alignment. Then again, the wings/levels/polymorph suggest succubus, but then you realise that the Devils are Arch and the Demons are Princes, after which you realise that in the Book of Vile Darkness, page 123, Chapter 7: Lords of Evil, simply says "Archfiends and Clerics", so it's really quite confusing. :P

Kish
2005-01-24, 03:44 PM
Don't forget about Sabine being Haley's mirror. If Haley is CG, and Nale's mirror is CG... :P

(Of course, that only applies if you agree Haley and Elan are both Chaotic.)

GeeVee
2005-01-25, 02:48 PM
Who says the archfiends are demons or devils?
They could be, well, a new type of evil extraplanar creatures, called Fiends. Aligned Neutral Evil, and above both Demons and Devils.
Sabine is a Succubus, but was sent by the Archfiends, as they are waaay above the whole Brood War thing, and only one alignment step away from herself.

AtomicKitKat
2005-01-26, 12:53 AM
There's already neutral evil fiends, they're called Yugoloths(and some neutral evil fiends refer to themselves as Yugoloths as well) :D

SalSar_Thiran
2005-01-26, 01:21 AM
I think that Sabine is Lawful Evil. She follows the plans without complaint and accepts the value of them as far as I can tell. I am new to the whole rpg thing so I may be wrong here.

Yuki Akuma
2005-01-26, 05:37 AM
"Fiend" is a general term used to refer to any evil Outsider, just as "Celestial" is a general term used to describe any good Outsider. Neutral Evil outsiders are Yugoloths.

DrDoom
2005-01-26, 07:29 AM
Nah, shes definetly a succubus (and thus CE). Being CE does not mean that you are like Belkar!

SalSar_Thiran
2005-01-26, 10:45 PM
Actually when I saw her I thought she was a Succubus as well, since from what I know of them (not D&D based), they are supposed to look exceptionally tempting and seducting. I would have said CE if i knew what their alignment here in D&D was.

pumpkinetics
2005-01-28, 03:59 AM
Nope. She's an Erynies. That's how she's lawful evil

deathregis
2005-01-28, 05:20 AM
Erinye have feathered wings. Also, they don't have natural polymorphing powers, and can't drain levels. Succubi, on the other hand, have leathery wings, can change into any Humanoid, and can drain levels.

Yuki Akuma
2005-01-29, 08:37 PM
My God... I'm being quoted...

SalSar_Thiran
2005-01-29, 08:53 PM
Posted by: Yuki Akuma Posted on: Today at 7:37pm

My God... I'm being quoted... *


congratulations you have said something of value for the first time

and I am assuming that we have agreed Sabine is a CE succubus?

Then we need something else to over analyze... any ideas?

Kish
2005-01-29, 09:04 PM
and I am assuming that we have agreed Sabine is a CE succubus?
You know what they say about assumptions.

pumpkinetics
2005-01-29, 10:02 PM
I know! What the big green thingeys are!

They're not ogres, and not hill giants, since we've already seen those in the comic.

SalSar_Thiran
2005-01-29, 10:27 PM
where did we see hill giant?

As for my assumption, well no one has attacked it yet and the evidence looks solid.

pumpkinetics
2005-01-29, 10:50 PM
Well, here's my chart for the giants in #139

Stone Giant: Grey, Tall and straight
Fire giant: Short, Black, Firey hair
Cloud Giant: blue, live in clouds
Frost giant: Blue, live in high mountaintops.
Storm giant:Green, would be using electricity, greatsword.
Hill Giant: Brownish, Slouching posture, wears loincloth or animal skin cloth; BINGO

deathregis
2005-01-29, 11:51 PM
I thought the consensus was that they were trolls.

And we never agreed that Sabine was a CE Succubus, only that she was a Succubus. She appears to be a LE Succubus, and that's where the debate stems from.

Adghar
2005-01-30, 12:58 AM
Well, here's my chart for the giants in #139

Stone Giant: Grey, Tall and straight
Fire giant: Short, Black, Firey hair
Cloud Giant: blue, live in clouds
Frost giant: Blue, live in high mountaintops.
Storm giant:Green, would be using electricity, greatsword.
Hill Giant: Brownish, Slouching posture, wears loincloth or animal skin cloth; BINGO



Didn't you just contradict yourself? Or are you partially color-blind? The monsters in the comic are green, not brownish.

SalSar_Thiran
2005-01-30, 01:43 AM
But they dont have greatswords nor are they using electricity. I say troll or generic giant

Kish
2005-01-30, 01:51 AM
But they dont have greatswords nor are they using electricity.
They also don't seem highly intelligent, I very much doubt their race is usually Good, and they're not powerful enough that the Order of the Stick made a huge obvious mistake by not running immediately. I think we can rule out storm giants. :P

pumpkinetics
2005-01-30, 03:45 AM
Didn't you just contradict yourself? Or are you partially color-blind? The monsters in the comic are green, not brownish.



I wasn't talking about the new ones! I was talking about the giants in thelater panels of #139!

DrDoom
2005-01-30, 08:07 AM
Yupp, Hillgiants.

Oh, and Succubi are automatically CE in DnD...

Sundog
2005-01-30, 02:02 PM
That depends upon which world you're in. The Eberron setting (sorry, Rich) has a rule that says there are no alignment absolutes - it may be very rare to find a Lawful Good Balor, but it CAN happen.

Tharivol
2005-01-30, 02:15 PM
It says that in the back of the Monster Manuel, too. A creature with "always evil" under their alignment are born that way, but individuals can change.

SalSar_Thiran
2005-01-30, 02:22 PM
Ahh, the exceptions rule. *I am glad to see it made it's way into D&D.

Exceptions Rule: To all rules and absolutes, there is always an exception.

Yuki Akuma
2005-01-30, 07:24 PM
Is there an exception to the Exception Rule, then?

SalSar_Thiran
2005-01-30, 08:21 PM
No, the Exceptions Rule is in and of itself exempt from said rule.

Edalmri
2005-01-30, 08:42 PM
Sounds sort of like the whole impossibility thing.

metaofantioch
2005-01-31, 01:33 AM
But wait, if the Exceptions Rule is exempt from the Exceptions Rule, then it would be a exception to the rule, but the Exception Rule is exempt from having exceptions, so... ok, time to stop thinking. :P

SalSar_Thiran
2005-01-31, 02:21 AM
Gotta love circular logic *;D

AtomicKitKat
2005-01-31, 02:36 AM
Half-troll Ogres. POSSIBLY Hill Giant in place of Ogre blood.

pumpkinetics
2005-01-31, 03:50 AM
What isn't to say they're standard trolls?

AtomicKitKat
2005-01-31, 05:18 AM
Trolls tend to have scraggly hair, green skin, over-long limbs(skinnier than most, but since it's all in stick...), and are around 12-15 feet tall. Ogres are generally 9-12 feet tall, purplish to tan, and more muscular than trolls. Hill Giants average 15-20 feet in height(I think), and look pretty much like gigantic Neanderthal/Cro-Magnons.

Overall:

Troll=Scrawny but strong.
Ogres=Burly and strong.
Hill Giant=Very big caveman.

Could be a blend of all 3. All 3 are classed as "Giant" by the way.

Edit: Took another look after posting. Estimate they're about 10-12 feet in height, which weighs heavily towards Ogre. The fangs and green skin definitely suggest trollish blood(Half-troll template, Fiend Folio) Additionally, I think pure trolls are almost always naked.

Kish
2005-01-31, 05:45 AM
Additionally, I think pure trolls are almost always naked.
Not in OotS they're not. Kids read this strip.

AtomicKitKat
2005-01-31, 08:37 AM
Not in OotS they're not. *Kids read this strip.

The umm, flying eyeball(cannot use brand-name), the demon roaches, possibly the thing in the darkness, none of those wore clothes. :D Granted, none of them were exactly "humanoid", but then again, I don't recall seeing trolls with any genitalia in the Monster Manuals' illustrations (2nd and 3.5 edition)

Kevlimin_Soulaxe
2005-02-01, 09:12 PM
Elan runs around naked. I think he is humanoid, and had genitalia.

Peldor
2005-02-02, 12:00 AM
But only Haley needs to know what the 18 CHA is worth under the hood.

The rest of us can continue on in bliss.

Kish
2005-02-02, 12:11 AM
Elan runs around naked. I think he is humanoid, and had genitalia.
Yeah, that (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=32) would be what I was referring to.

Lilly
2005-02-02, 12:17 AM
And speaking of Haley and Elan...

My speciality is relationship analysis. What do y'all think there relationship is like "off screen?"

At the begining of the comic, they called each other by their names, by the end of strip 35 they've both checked out each others physical "assests." (Well along with the rest of the party, but that's irrelevent)

Haley starts calling Elan pet names (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=45) after a bit. And then there's the whole groping while invisible incident. And the akward pause in #109. I think that Haley like Elan and is being quite obvious about it. But Elan is a llittle too dense to recognise it.

SalSar_Thiran
2005-02-02, 12:44 AM
I don't think the "Sweety" has any meaning, I know at least 3 girls who call every guy they are friends with sweety or dear. And I think the concinsus was that they are ex's.

Kish
2005-02-02, 01:03 AM
And I think the concinsus was that they are ex's.
There may have been a concinsus, but there was certainly no consensus.

deathregis
2005-02-02, 06:42 AM
I don't think Haley would need to find out what Elan was like "under the hood" if they were ex's.

DrDoom
2005-02-02, 07:28 AM
Plus the holded Hands in the last Panel of 120 (or something, when they defeated Xyrkon).

Freeman333
2005-02-02, 01:49 PM
Yeah, their relationship seems a bit questionable--my guess is that Haley has a thing for Elan but he hasn't quite picked up on what that means yet. *Emotionally and intellectually Elan seems to be just above toddler stage--it's entirely possible he hasn't "discovered girls" yet. *

Then again, he did take that Girdle of Masculinity/Femininity. *Maybe he knows more about girls than any man should know...

AtomicKitKat
2005-02-03, 12:21 AM
Then again, he did take that Girdle of Masculinity/Femininity. *Maybe he knows more about girls than any man should know...

Damn those attractive sub-normal bards and their 18 Charisma! :P

My RL stats are probably at 12 S/18 D/8 C/16 I/14 W/10 C

AtomicKitKat
2005-02-03, 02:01 AM
Damage assessment(assumption is that V is 10th level after beating Xykon):

Beastie 1: 3 missiles+2 fireballs+1 lightning bolt

Beastie 1: 2 missiles+2 fireballs+1 lightning bolt

Damage for Beastie 1: (3d4+3)+20d6+10d6

Damage for Beastie 2: (2d4+2)+20d6+10d6

Total damage for Beastie 1: 36 to 195

Total damage for Beastie 2: 34 to 190

If we average this out, it comes to about 113.75 hit points of damage per beastie. If we assume that the beasties are at full hit dice(8 hp per hd), that puts them at 14 hit dice each. Hmm... 2 CR 13 mobs for a level 10 party. Challenging, I guess. Would actually be "moderate" if Roy had his sword.

Freeman333
2005-02-03, 02:43 PM
:o

Now, that is what I call over-analysis.

Well done, Kit. You do us all proud.

AtomicKitKat
2005-02-03, 03:26 PM
:o

Now, that is what I call over-analysis.

Well done, Kit. *You do us all proud.

I call it "figuring out how badly you can hurt the beasties while keeping enough firepower to counter Murphy" :P

And please, call me AKK, it's less confusing that way(in case there are any Katherine/Kat/Kate/Kit/Kitana/Kitiara, etc. on this board.) ;D

Kevlimin_Soulaxe
2005-02-20, 12:54 AM
Okay, this place neeeeeeeeeeeeeeds a serious bump.

SalSar_Thiran
2005-02-20, 01:12 AM
Yeah or I will have to UNLEASH STABBITY DEATH on it.

Thank you for correcting my sepllign. It can be painful sometimes.

Also the numbers look good

Xander77
2005-02-24, 03:56 PM
Did you double-count the fireballs and lightining bolts for both creatures?

And Roy finally has a great-club.

AtomicKitKat
2005-02-24, 05:28 PM
Did you double-count the fireballs and lightining bolts for both creatures?

And Roy finally has a great-club.

I made sure to separate the fireballs and lightning bolts.

AtomicKitKat
2005-02-25, 12:42 PM
1d10 for the greatclub(sized for a Medium character)
1d8 for the warhammer(sized for a Medium character)
1d3 per dagger(sized for a Small character)

None of the above is even counting the Strength mods(and let's face it, I think Belkar probably pumped as much strength as he can get away with, to get more damage. We all know he's the most PG/Munchkin of the group, pun intended)

I think that kid's going down a level(assuming he can even get raised)

At the very most, he would have 12 hp(not counting Constitution mods), at the very least, 7(6 for the first, 1 for the second HD)

Worst case scenario:

10+8+6=24. Dead once over. Twice if the strength mods and criticals kick in.

Best case scenario:

1+1+2=4. Beaten 1/3 to death, and severely humbled. Still not taking in Str mods though, which might actually lead to him dying, regardless of die rolls.

evileeyore
2005-02-25, 06:08 PM
The OotSies could always take a -4 penalty to hit and do subdual.

They should still easily whoop his fanny, but not outright kill the poor lad.

Afterall the whole point of the beat down is to teach, not mutilate.

metaofantioch
2005-02-25, 10:05 PM
Something tells me Belkar isn't going to deal subdual damage...

Nikolai_II
2005-03-03, 10:29 AM
Nitpick: Haley's getting on the horse backwards.

Or she might have been trained as rightside-drafthorse rider. ;)

Lilly
2005-03-03, 03:30 PM
Okay I don't remember if we've had the "What alignment is Roy?" debate yet.

Other than the "Lawful stupid" china marker incident what evidence do we have for his alignment.

Lawful:
- Is Haley's employer and won't let her deal with nekid Elan.
- Is on a quest he inherited from his father
- His party members view him as lawful

Neutral/Chaotic:
- Can protection from law be cast on someone who's lawful?
- Specifically went against his fathers wishes and became a fighter
- Thinks labor unions are stupid
- Is capable of bluffing his way out of sticky situations. (i.e. convincing Haley to come on the side quest, convincing Elan to put clothes back on etc.)

The_Shadow
2005-03-03, 05:02 PM
I am unsure why people think being persuasive is un-Lawful... though I admit that actively making up the "giant kings" was over the top for a truly Lawful character. But then, as I've mentioned in another thread, I think by that point Roy was having alignment trouble.

My guesses for alignment:

Roy: LG. To me, this is obvious.
Elan: CG. His mommy was CG, just as Nale matches his daddy's alignment.
Haley: CN, good tendencies.
Durkon: LG. So lawful it hurts, and a heart of gold.
Vaarsuvius: LN, but with definite good tendencies. (He went to far too much trouble to save Elan during battle.)
Belkar: CE.

Linear Guild:

Nale: LE. He tells us, duh.
Sabine: LE. I do think she's a succubus, but I just can't picture demon lords sending one to be consort to a LE human.
Hilgya: CE, but possibly changing to CN.
Zz'dtri: NE.
Thog: NE, stupid tendencies. :P He's too dumb to have much commitment to law or chaos, but he's definitely evil.
Yikyik: CE.

metaofantioch
2005-03-03, 07:42 PM
- Specifically went against his fathers wishes and became a fighter


Remember, though, he was following the family tradition of being warriors (the sword belonged to his grandfather and greatgrandfather, etc.). His father was the one who was being chaotic by becoming a wizard in the first place.



- Thinks labor unions are stupid


So do plenty of Lawful corporations. :)

deathregis
2005-03-04, 12:40 AM
I'd say Roy, Elan, and Haley are all Good because they activated the sigils that needed the "pure of heart". That sure sounds like a euphamism for Good to me.

SalSar_Thiran
2005-03-04, 07:22 PM
I think that Roy has now dropped to LN. You don't abandon your party members if you are good (esp if they aren't out to get you). Plus there is no time limit that needs to be filled that would mandate leaving Elan behind.

pumpkinetics
2005-03-22, 04:34 AM
Either the Giant really stuffed up, or Elan has an intelligence of one.

In the second comic Elan sings: "Skill points, I love my six new skill points...

The only way he could have gotten six skill points is to be a 3rd level bard with such a low intelligence that he only got extra skill points from bare minimum rules, so when he got to 3.5 he would just be eligible for two skill points per level.

Porter
2005-03-22, 08:39 AM
Uh, maybe he gained a level, and got six more than he was used to.

Maybe they are only level one.

Vik
2005-03-22, 09:46 AM
Damage assessment(assumption is that V is 10th level after beating Xykon):
Beastie 1: 3 missiles+2 fireballs+1 lightning bolt
Beastie 1: 2 missiles+2 fireballs+1 lightning bolt
Damage for Beastie 1: (3d4+3)+20d6+10d6
Damage for Beastie 2: (2d4+2)+20d6+10d6
Total damage for Beastie 1: 36 to 195
Total damage for Beastie 2: 34 to 190 Hey, they can have made their saves !

About alignments : all of them, save Belkar, were overwhelmed by Unholy blight ; this means they are all good (Neutral takes half damage and are not sickened).
My guess is :
Durlon and Roy LG (I'm sure he'll save them), Varsuvius NG, Elan and Haley CG.
For Belkar, CE (maybe NE or CN ?)


On skill points : I believe he was refering to the fact the bard now have 6 skill points per level.

AtomicKitKat
2005-03-22, 03:05 PM
You guys are totally off-track about skill points.

v3.0 Bard=4+Int Mod per level(multiply the total by 4 for level 1)
v3.5 Bard=6+Int Mod per level(multiply the total, etc.)

Am I a geek or what? *:-[

Edit: After I shut down my comp, realised I had made a mistake with the levels. Removing them till I can clear my head and redo the calculations.

SalSar_Thiran
2005-03-22, 05:52 PM
Don't feel bad. Here, it is a good thing.

Lilly
2005-03-23, 02:34 AM
The most recent strip brings to mind an important question: How old are the OotSers?

Samantha is what 18? And she finds Elan attractive. That means that he has to be either younger than 25 looking or older than 40. (Think every young lady that is attracted to Richard Gere or Sean Connery)

~Lilly- Reminding people this thread isn't just for numbers since just now.

pumpkinetics
2005-03-23, 02:38 AM
I'd say Elan is 17-20 years old (Standard starting age plus 1 year for adventuring time) and the other rang at the same racial levels.

Lilly
2005-03-23, 02:50 AM
Well if your going by the book then he would be anywhere between 17-23. But he is probably at least 20.

Evidence:

He dosen't remember what's it's like to be a teenager (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=93)
He was also a herald for a mighty knight (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=141)

Other random thought: what is it that heralds would do exactly? Don't answer that just think about it.

Nikolai_II
2005-03-23, 02:55 AM
I'd say Elan is 17-20 years old (Standard starting age plus 1 year for adventuring time) and the other rang at the same racial levels.

V has studied magic for more than a century though.. ;)

http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=126

(Although I guess a case could be made for having studied magic even before 'adulthood age')

Kish
2005-03-23, 02:59 AM
He dosen't remember what's it's like to be a teenager (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=93)
Considering we're talking about Elan, I'd venture that that's probably because his thought processes haven't noticeably changed since then.

Sundog
2005-03-24, 09:23 AM
I'd venture Elan doesn't remember what happened last week, let alone a few years ago.

And remember, being about 120 is the equivalent of early adulthood for an Elf.

AtomicKitKat
2005-03-24, 03:03 PM
Elan is 17-22, based on starting age of 15, adding 1d6 for training as a bard, 1 year of adventuring.

15+(1 to 6)+1=17 to 22

Also from the PHB, elves reach adulthoodd at 110, add 10d6 years training as a wizard(this is ridiculous! An elf needs 5 times as long to become a level 1 wizard, compared to a human. Favoured class my rear end...)

metaofantioch
2005-03-25, 02:03 AM
He dosen't remember what's it's like to be a teenager (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=93)


Heh, I just noticed the "The Cure (light wounds)" poster in the second to last panel. That's great... heh... whooo....

Okay, I should probably offer some actualy analysis. I think Elan just didn't understand the Goblin teen's rebellious nature. After all, he was always a good little boy. :p I always thought of Elan and Haley as relatively young, no older than about 20, with Roy maybe being in his mid 20's, just 'cause he's the authority figure in the group.

evileeyore
2005-03-26, 08:02 AM
Other random thought: what is it that heralds would do exactly? Don't answer that just think about it.


Well they Herald, duh.

Oh. Wait you said "don't answer that just think"... I got that backwards.

Reading Comprehensionless Today--EvilE

ThreadNecromancer
2005-03-27, 01:28 PM
Heralds play a trumpet to anounce their boss's arival.

The_Shadow
2005-03-31, 05:04 PM
OK, I think it's now been firmly established that Roy is LG. *Yay, team! :)

Personally, I say the same for Durkon, though there seem to be some who think otherwise.

The guy has a heart of gold. *Calling Elan the "heart and soul of the team", for one.

He actively despises undead. *I mean, *despises*.

He makes a big point about calling trees Evil, with a capital E.

He was really zapped by the Unholy Blight.

Haley said he'd pull out "some of that good cleric mojo", which indicates that she certainly thinks he's Good. *And you don't seriously think that someone as painfully Lawful as Durkon would lie about his alignment, do you?

Plus, what's the "usual" alignment for dwarves? *I rest my case.

-------------------------

Regarding the whole age business...

I read Elan as being 20-21. *He wouldn't have asked about insight into the teenage mind if he WAS a teenager. *But given his abysmal intelligence, I could see him forgetting what it was like a year later. :P *Besides, I doubt he was ever much of a rebel.

Haley is a little older than Elan, but not by much. *22-23.

Roy is significantly older. *He graduated from Fighter College and got his MBA, for one. *That makes him mid-20's by itself. *Plus I gather that he's been adventuring and training for some time, building up to his big quest against Xykon. *I'm guessing anywhere from 27-30.

(Why on earth an MBA, anyway? *Was he hoping to do a hostile takeover of Xykon's corporation, or something? :)

Durkon and V are obviously older in absolute terms, just by their respective races. *But in terms of maturity, I think Durkon is also the most mature of the group, with Roy being a close second. *In human terms, he's probably in the equivalent of his 30's, or maybe even older. *(He calls Roy "lad" and Roy doesn't object.)

Vaarsuvius I'd peg in the equivalent of his mid-to-late 20's. *He's older by default just by being a wizard.

Belkar... What can you say about Belkar? :P *His age is hard to guess, because he's one of those people who is permanently immature.

EDIT: I looked back at today's strip, and it made me wonder if Roy is even older than I thought. Look at the way he talks about his "whole adult life" and the way he goes on about life being unsatisfying. Sounds almost like a midlife crisis to me.

Kevlimin_Soulaxe
2005-03-31, 07:54 PM
Guys, I have been notieing a lot of remarks about Elan's intelligiance. You need to realize he has an intelligance of 10. It his WISDOM that is the 1.

The_Shadow
2005-03-31, 08:09 PM
Guys, I have been notieing a lot of remarks about Elan's intelligiance. You need to realize he has an intelligance of 10. It his WISDOM that is the 1.

What makes you so sure of that? He seems dumb as a box of rocks to me, in addition to being low Wis.

I mean, thinking that being naked will give you a negative armor penalty... that's just DUMB. :)

Anyway, Elan can't possibly have the lowest Wis in the party. That honor goes to Belkar. ;) Who is not particularly low in Int (though not very high in it either).

Callista
2005-04-11, 07:49 AM
Nah, I'd think Elan probably has a WIS of 10-ish. He's kinda dense when it comes to Sense Motive (Haley and Xykon, among others); but other than that, he seems relatively alert--it's Belkar who's always missing his Spot checks, and who can't cast spells.

Notice that there are six OOTSers, and six stats... I'm of the opinion (and, apparently, others are as well) that each character has a different high stat and a different low stat:

High Stat:
STR: Roy
DEX: Haley
CON: Belkar
INT: V
WIS: Durkon
CHA: Elan

Low Stat:
STR: V (probably)
DEX: Roy
CON: Haley (probably)
INT: Elan
WIS: Belkar
CHA: Durkon (probably)

I just put the low stats down that way because I'm assuming INT is low for Elan, WIS for Belkar, as seems to be the consensus. Then, after that, Roy has either low STR (doubtful), CHA (party leader--doubtful) or DEX (what's left). Then STR and CON are left; V is more likely to take the STR penalty, leaving Haley with CON (and this late defeat at the hands of the sorceress seems to agree with that).

So, anyhow:

The way these high and low stats fit so nicely would seem to argue that the two low stats, INT and WIS, apply to two different people; and that no two people have the same low or high stat.

Since we know Belkar has the low WIS (he can't cast his ranger spells), we assume that Elan has the low INT. Still, Elan having a WIS of 10 or so makes sense.

Peldor
2005-04-11, 02:37 PM
Roy just cut through not one, not two, but three hangman's ropes, and killed the hangman with an unbalanced throwing weapon, and you suggest he has a low Dex?

Some people are so hard to impress. :P

Callista
2005-04-11, 10:46 PM
He wears heavy armor. The max dex on it cancels out any high score he may have; so it stands to reason that Roy's player wouldn't put a particularly high score in DEX.

As a mid-high level fighter, Roy simply has a decent BAB; chances are, his player rolled a confirmed critical, or maybe even a triple-twenty.

Roy and the Rhino:

Minimum damage: Rhinos weigh, at smallest adult weight, 2.5 tons. That's 5000 pounds.

For each 200 pounds, a falling object deals 1d6 points of damage.

That's 25d6 points of damage, assuming the rhino fell only 10 feet (which it did; if Roy is at least 6 feet tall, and takes up 2/3 of the panel; and the rhino pops out beyond the top of the panel; then it probably did fall ten feet, assuming it is one foot above the top of the panel when it starts--which it is, if it is 2 feet or taller).

Least amount of damage possible: 25 HP
Average amount of damage: 87.5 HP
Highest amount of damage: 150

Callista
2005-04-11, 11:45 PM
Umm, yeah, so this is my 2nd post in a row... sorry about that. I figure this stuff is best off on its own.

Stuff that might help determine levels and stats, by the comics:

4: Elan uses Inspire Competence
..... Elan's Perform Skill: 6+
5: V casts "Expeditious Retreat"
..... Spell Level 1
6: Durkon casts "Cure Serious Wounds" twice, then runs out of spells.
..... Spell Level 3
7: V casts "Identify" on a Girdle of Femininity/Masculinity
..... Spell Level 1
8: Belkar kills a goblin cleric capable of casting "Unholy Blight" with a single stab; he was worth 1000 xp.
..... Unholy Blight is a 4th level spell; that means the cleric was at least 7th level. With average HP and no CON modifier, the cleric's HP are 35.
..... Somehow, Belkar did 36-ish damage with a single attack...
..... 1000 XP in total: Either a CR 4 encounter and a level 5 party (impossible, this was CR 7+) or a CR 7 encounter and a 10th level party.
..... 1000 XP per character: A CR 12 encounter and a 10th level party.
9: LEVEL UPThe party levels up--Haley gets another sneak attack die and V another spell level. (We know they gained an odd level; see above--the OOTSers were 10th level and are now 11th level.)
15: NIGHT
..... Spells Cast (V): Expeditious Retreat, Identify. 3x L1.
..... Spells Cast (Durkon): CSW x2. 2x L3.
16: Durkon is capable of turning undead at least 3 times per day.
..... Durkon's Charisma is 10 or more.
19: Haley takes no damage due to Evasion from a chimera's fire breath; Elan creates an illusion (probably Silent Image).
..... Spell Level: 1
20: V casts Fireball, Lightning Bolt, and "Evan's Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion"
..... Spell Levels: 3, 3, 4+
25: Belkar asks Durkon to cast Blindness on him.
..... Spell Level 3
27: Durkon can cast Cat's Grace.
..... Cat's Grace is not a cleric spell! (Durkon's possible other classes: Bard (but D. is Lawful), Druid 3+, Ranger 8-10+, Sorcerer 4+, Wizard 3+. I would rule out Druid and Ranger with Durkon's being not too fond of trees. It could also be a non-core domain spell.)
33: Elan's bard song adds +1 damage.
..... Elan is a 7th level Bard or less; therefore, Elan is multiclassed.
39: NIGHT
..... Spells Cast (Elan): 1x L1
..... Spells Cast (V): 2x L3; 1x L4+
..... Spells Cast (Durkon): 1x L2 and some sort of healing spell.
40: Thor grants Durkon three Lesser Restorations, as well as first and second level spells.
..... Durkon is at least a 6th level cleric. This rules out the idea of a Ranger multiclass as well.
41: V casts "Cone of Cold" with Elan singing "inspire competence".
..... Spell Level 5
44: Sabine, a Succubus, has an ECL of at least 12. ZZ'dtri, a Drow, has an ECL of 2 plus character levels.
49: ZZ'dtri can cast Fly (3). V has Lightning Bolt (3), Dispel Magic (3), Vampiric Touch (3), Haste (3), in his spellbook.
52: Durkon casts Protection from Fire.
..... Spell Level 3
53: Zz'dtri casts Flesh to Stone.
..... Spell Level 6
..... Zz'dtri is at least level 11--plus a LA of 2!
57: Zz'dtri casts Wall of Ice (4) and Fly (3).
58: Under the influence of Owl's Wisdom, Belkar is capable of reading scrolls of CSW.
..... Belkar's increased score is at least 13, which means his WIS is usually no lower than 9. Since he cannot usually cast spells at all, his WIS is no higher than 9 either.
60: V runs out of Fireball spells (i.e., he had at least 2 prepared and used them both). V casts Dispel Magic.
..... Spell Level 3
62: Haley has the Manyshot feat.
..... Prerequisites: Dex 17, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, base attack bonus +6
64: Roy has Weapon Specialization.
..... Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected weapon, Weapon Focus with selected weapon, fighter level 4th.
65: V casts Magic Missile, Scorching Ray, and Sleep; then runs out of spells for the day.
..... Spell Level 1, 2, 1
69: Haley has 8 ranks in Use Rope.
70: V reads a scroll of Break Enchantment.
..... Spell Level 5
74: Helgya casts Restoration; Durkon casts Sanctuary.
..... Restoration: Spell Level 4
..... Sanctuary: Spell Level 1
77: Durkon casts CLW x2 and CMW.
..... Spell Levels 1 and 2
78-83: NIGHT (Durkon & Helgya's tryst)
..... Spells Cast (Durkon): 1x L3, 4x L2, 3x L1
..... Durkon is at least CLR 6.
..... Spells Cast (V): 1x L5, 3x L3, 1x L2, 2x L1
..... Spells Cast (Zz'dtri): 1x L6, 1x L4, 2x L3, 1x L1
..... Spells Cast (Helgya): 1x L4
88: V casts Invisibility Sphere
..... Spell Level 3
92: V casts Explosive Runes
..... Spell Level 3
99: V casts Fireball.
..... Spell Level 3
102: Roy has Great Cleave.
..... Str 13, Cleave, Power Attack, base attack bonus +4.
104: V casts Bull's Strength
..... Spell Level 3
104: Durkon casts Shield of Faith and Disruption.
..... Spell Level 1
..... Spell Level 5
Durkon is at least a 9th level Cleric.
106: V casts Lightning Bolt
..... Spell Level 3
107: V casts Scorching Ray
..... Spell Level 2
111: Durkon casts Thor's Might
..... Righteous Might? Spell Level 5.
..... Durkon has already cast a 5th level spell today. Either he is an 11th level Cleric, a 9th level cleric with a WIS of 20+, or he is a 9th level cleric with the Strength domain.
116: Durkon can cast Detect Magic.
..... Spell Level 0
123: NIGHT (Inn)
..... Spells Cast (V): 5x L3, 1x L2
..... Spells Cast (Durkon): 2x L5, 1x L1, 1x L0
124: LEVEL UP The party levels up.
..... They are now level 12.
126: Belkar and V are the same level.
127: V casts Crushing Despair
..... Spell Level 4.
145: V casts Lightning Bolt, Fireball x2, Magic Missile.
..... Spell Level 3, 3, 1.
146: NIGHT
..... Spells Cast (V): 1x L4, 4x L3, 1x L1
149: Redcloak casts Slay Living.
..... Spell Level 5
155: V's raven seems to be capable of communicating with him directly (Speak with Master).
155: NIGHT: Casters may or may not have regained spells.
156: Elan casts some sort of spell that allows him to escape from ropes.
..... Grease (1), Animate Rope (1), or Freedom of Movement (4).
157: V casts Invisibility.
..... Spell Level 2
166: V Counterspells Fireball, Chain Lightning, and Hold Person.
..... Spell Level 3, 6, 3.

GeeVee
2005-04-12, 04:34 PM
That's mighty impressive, Callista, but of course not flawless.

Durkon cast Disrupt Undead, not Disruption. And no, It's not in the books.
Thor's Might is not the same as Righteous Might.

Varsuuvius doesn't have to know all those spells to counterspell, he probably had Dispel Magic prepared. I know I would if I were a Wizard.

But nevertheless that's awesome. Keep up the good work. You make us all proud.

AtomicKitKat
2005-04-12, 05:35 PM
Roy being 6 feet tall, that rhino would be about 4/4/6 feet height/width/length. About 96 cubic feet in volume. At 48000 ounces(4000 lbs), that's about 41 lbs 8 oz per cubic foot. I'm no physics major, but that's gotta be painful. Callista wanna translate that into pounds per cubic inch/square inch? ;D

AtomicKitKat
2005-04-13, 06:14 AM
More data: Haley is 24! Strip 168(for future reference)

eldersphinx
2005-04-13, 11:48 AM
Lessee, over-analysis: Haley's insistence that Samantha's 'Reflex Save DCs' are just too high.

Assuming Rog11 and Dex 18, that's a Reflex save of +11 minimum for Haley.

Samantha is a Sor12, casting Lightning Bolt, with probably a Cha 20. (Doesn't include a possible Cloak of Charisma, but then Haley doesn't get Gloves of Dexterity either.) Add Spell Focus (evocation) for an additional +1.

Reflex save DC of... 19. That's something like a 1 in 3 chance of Haley failing. Either she rolled low and is exaggerating for effect, or there's something weird going on here...

IonStorm
2005-04-13, 02:06 PM
First time poster, hi, etc.



62: Haley has the Manyshot feat.
..... Prerequisites: Dex 17, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, base attack bonus +6

[snip]

124: LEVEL UP The party levels up.
..... They are now level 12.


168: Haley shoots 3 arrows with Manyshot feat. Prerequisites: Dex 17, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, base attack bonus +11.

If you assume that in 62 she fired the maximum number of arrows she could at the time (2), then leveled up in 124 and fired the maximum number of arrows in 168 (3), then Haley is now exactly a 15th level rogue.

The_Shadow
2005-04-13, 02:36 PM
First time poster, hi, etc.


168: Haley shoots 3 arrows with Manyshot feat. *Prerequisites: Dex 17, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, base attack bonus +11.

If you assume that in 62 she fired the maximum number of arrows she could at the time (2), then leveled up in 124 and fired the maximum number of arrows in 168 (3), then Haley is now exactly a 15th level rogue.

Good analysis, but aren't you assuming that Haley is single-classed? We've already deduced that at least some members of the group have multiclassed.

With all the archery Haley does, I almost wonder if she has a few levels of ranger.

Kish
2005-04-13, 02:57 PM
We've already deduced that at least some members of the group have multiclassed.

...huh?

Belkar is the only multiclassed group member as far as I can see, and we didn't "deduce" that, we saw it.

IonStorm
2005-04-13, 04:15 PM
Good analysis, but aren't you assuming that Haley is single-classed? *We've already deduced that at least some members of the group have multiclassed.

With all the archery Haley does, I almost wonder if she has a few levels of ranger.

Thanks, but I don't recall any evidence that she has multiclassed. She only talks about rogue and thief objectives.

She certainly has no ranger levels, as she and Roy need to convince Belkar to use his track feat (granted to first level rangers) to follow the trail of the chimera (#22).

retnuhytnuob
2005-04-13, 09:21 PM
Low Stat:
STR: V (probably)
DEX: Roy
CON: Haley (probably)
INT: Elan
WIS: Belkar
CHA: Durkon (probably)


Just wondering... might it be possible that Roy has the low CON Stat? (with Durkon then having the low DEX, Haley with the low STR, V with low CON)

I mean... after all, Roy was poisoned 17 times from Xykon's trap, as shown in http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=38 (though that could be partly because of the 'overdoneness' of the trap itself)

It would also go well with his 'counter class logic' type thing with the high INT.

The_Shadow
2005-04-14, 01:41 AM
...huh?

Belkar is the only multiclassed group member as far as I can see, and we didn't "deduce" that, we saw it.

We don't actually KNOW that Belkar went through with multiclassing, though it does seem likely.

I was referring to the fact that Callista deduced (rather cleverly, too) in her mammoth post above that Elan must be multiclassed. See note on #33.

Kish
2005-04-14, 02:59 AM
...uh. Yeah.

Clever deduction or no clever deduction, I'm pretty sure Elan is a single-classed bard with a writer who doesn't worry that much about conforming to D&D rules (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=comics;action=display;num=1112345490 ;start=348#348). Whether we know Belkar is multiclassed now is debatable; we certainly don't know any of the others are.

Edit: I also doubt very much that Belkar's Wisdom, insofar as The Giant thinks in terms of stats, is just one point below average.

The_Shadow
2005-04-14, 03:07 AM
Kish, you DID notice the title of this thread, right? :P

Don't you think that accusing us of over-analyzing is missing the point just a tad?

Kish
2005-04-14, 03:26 AM
No. I'm afraid not.

Let me ask you one question...

Do you think--in the forum and comic outside this thread--that Elan is a single-classed bard?

If you do, then I'd contend it's not enough analysis to say here that he's multiclassed, since he obviously isn't. "Missing the point" would be saying something like, "why are you talking about their levels when the FAQ says..." Going in a direction that leads you to ideas that the comic is not going to support might be rules-lawyering, as stated in the first post, but it's no kind of analysis. A proper analysis/overanalysis has to take into account things like Elan's talking about multiclassing to wizard in a way that suggests strongly that he hasn't multiclassed before, or his telling Nale he's a bard (and no other class) while Nale says he's a fighter/rogue/sorcerer, or just the sheer unlikelihood (is that a word? never mind) that everyone (Elan himself included) would go so long without ever mentioning that Elan has five levels of another class.

IonStorm
2005-04-14, 08:43 AM
I was referring to the fact that Callista deduced (rather cleverly, too) in her mammoth post above that Elan must be multiclassed. *See note on #33.

No offense to Callista and her impressive work, but I think the relevant comic is #34.

A +1 damage bonus from song could be a (reasonable) house rule that the higer bonuses on Inspire Courage for higher bardic levels require more ranks in Perform. *Due to Elan's low intelligence he may not have the skill points to pull it off.

[edit] Removed incorrect statement due to only reading top half of comic 34.

IonStorm
2005-04-14, 08:53 AM
27: Durkon can cast Cat's Grace.
..... Cat's Grace is not a cleric spell! (Durkon's possible other classes: Bard (but D. is Lawful), Druid 3+, Ranger 8-10+, Sorcerer 4+, Wizard 3+. I would rule out Druid and Ranger with Durkon's being not too fond of trees. It could also be a non-core domain spell.)


I just noticed this, but Durkon is unlikely to be a Sorcerer or Wizard, as the armor penalties for arcane spells are prohibitive. I buy the non-core domain spell. This could also be the source of the Thor's Might spell.

Does anyone know or would like to speculate on what Thor's domains are?

Vik
2005-04-14, 09:12 AM
I was referring to the fact that Callista deduced (rather cleverly, too) in her mammoth post above that Elan must be multiclassed. See note on #33. OtoH, it's very likely that Elan's player got the same Wisdom score than his PC. So that he may very well tell other players they got a +1 bonus whereas he could give them a +2 or a +3 ...

GeeVee
2005-04-15, 11:41 AM
There is no such thing as the players of the Oots characters. Rich said so.

The_Shadow
2005-04-15, 12:54 PM
Ahem.

Kish, you did say, and I quote, "I'm pretty sure that Elan is a single-class bard, with a writer who doesn't worry about conforming to D&D rules."

Of course Rich doesn't worry about it. *But we on this thread have fun worrying about just that, in an amusing, overwrought way. *So I maintain my assertion of missing-pointage.

Is it ridiculous to claim that a throwaway joke in the comic has real consequences upon the character's stats, which probably don't even exist save in a vague way? *Probably. *But that's what this thread is for.

With that out of the way... *I never said he had five levels of something else. *Maybe he started out as a first level commoner, for all I know, and he's gotten x levels of bard since then. :) *Would YOU bring it up in conversation? :)

Though the suggestion that Elan just plain forgot how high a bonus he can give has merit also...

(Edited to remove an unnecessary comment.)

Whamme
2005-04-15, 06:00 PM
Ahem.

Kish, you did say, and I quote, "I'm pretty sure that Elan is a single-class bard, with a writer who doesn't worry about conforming to D&D rules."

Of course Rich doesn't worry about it. *But we on this thread have fun worrying about just that, in an amusing, overwrought way. *So I maintain my assertion of missing-pointage.

Is it ridiculous to claim that a throwaway joke in the comic has real consequences upon the character's stats, which probably don't even exist save in a vague way? *Probably. *But that's what this thread is for.

With that out of the way... *I never said he had five levels of something else. *Maybe he started out as a first level commoner, for all I know, and he's gotten x levels of bard since then. :) *Would YOU bring it up in conversation? :)

Though the suggestion that Elan just plain forgot how high a bonus he can give has merit also...

(Edited to remove an unnecessary comment.)

I think Rich HAS said that the OOTS has stats, which he has somewhere. So their power level IS consistent, and possibly even the spells (although Rich obviously makes the die rolls come out however he wants them to).

Kish
2005-04-15, 06:46 PM
I think Rich HAS said that the OOTS has stats, which he has somewhere.
Just the opposite. (http://www.giantitp.com/FAQ.html#faq6a)
Which doesn't mean there's anything wrong with speculating about their supposed stats--far from it--but I maintain that "his bard song only adds +1 to damage and not +2 or +3" doesn't outweigh the evidence that Elan is a single-classed bard and that it's under, not over, analysis to claim Elan is multiclassed.

Arian
2005-04-15, 08:45 PM
There is no such thing as the players of the Oots characters. Rich said so.

I remember I once conjectured something along those lines, but I don't recall Rich providing any confirmation or contradiction. Where did he say it?

Nerd-o-rama
2005-04-16, 03:50 PM
Back on Durkon:

Now that I look, none of the SRD domains give Cat's Grace. All we really know for sure is that, assuming he is 100% Cleric and has not researched any special spells, he has a domain that gives him Cat's Grace, a domain that gives him something that looks like Call Lightning, and can cast fifth level spells (remembering that Thor's Might is probably another name for Righteous Might, and that Righteous Might is in the Strength domain and the regular Cleric list at level 5.)

So for Durkon's Domains we have:
Weather (probably) and something from a non-core source that allows Cat's Grace. The only one I can find is Celerity from CD, and that one doesn't really make sense.

For the Cat's Grace bit, I vote for either
a) special domain
b) researched spell or
c) "House Rule" (an error or an intentional change for the sake of a joke.)

SalSar_Thiran
2005-04-16, 10:22 PM
Who said he cast Cats Grace? We never saw the effects of the spell he cast on Elan. It could be he cast something else and called it Cat's Grace just to get Elan to put his clothes back on.

EricD
2005-04-16, 10:39 PM
But if he was faking it, he could have used a spell that wasn't "touch" range.

The_King_of_Durf
2005-04-17, 11:03 AM
Good point, hmm. I was going to say that maybe he was a favored soul but they don't get Cat's Grace either... Maybe he multiclassed Druid at one point? Do they get Cat's Grace?
But he seems to much of a tree-hater to be a druid

ObadiahtheSlim
2005-04-18, 11:49 AM
But if he was faking it, he could have used a spell that wasn't "touch" range.
Because Elan knows it's a touch range.

The_Shadow
2005-04-18, 02:35 PM
I'd say that #170 settles Durkon's alignment as LG. Yay!

Kevlimin_Soulaxe
2005-05-02, 12:34 PM
By the way, Belkar has officially muti-classed.

#176

bournie
2005-05-02, 08:01 PM
Ok Belkar has called "Halfling Rage Jump Attack"

Which mean that we can safely say he took a level of barbarian, meaning he has 30ft of movement...

... which means his jump check is ??? (insert huge number here) We know he made at least 35 feet but equal to or less than 60...

...wow.

Kevlimin_Soulaxe
2005-05-02, 10:18 PM
Now keep in mind I am NOT a subsciber to the cop-out one high stat one low...

If Belkar has 18 STR, assuming 12th level, 15 ranks in Jump, +2 from being a halfling, that is a +21 to jump checks. He has a little over a 1 out of 4 chance to make it. 3 out of 10 to be exact. Of course, it didn't look like he ran 20 feet, so forget what I just said. V and Durkon must have done some quick Jump/STR boosting spells. A lot. Not running, he needs a 70!

Nerd-o-rama
2005-05-02, 11:19 PM
Psst...Ring of Jumping +20 (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=130)

Kevlimin_Soulaxe
2005-05-03, 12:08 PM
Oooh. Nice catch.

Peldor
2005-05-03, 01:03 PM
Ok Belkar has called "Halfling Rage Jump Attack"

Which mean that we can safely say he took a level of barbarian,

Not necessarily. It's halfling rage, not barbarian rage. You'd be pissed off too if you were 3 feet tall with a head that weighed more than the rest of your body.

Dire_Armadillo
2005-05-04, 08:48 PM
You know, ol’ Belkar is quite stabbity. He’s stacked with feats and has the ability to do 36-ish damage in a single hit (see Callista’s reference above), so I wouldn’t be surprised if he was multiclassed before taking a level of barbarian. In fact, I would venture to say there is a possibility he was a Fighter 2 / Ranger 2/ Rogue 3 before grabbing a barbarian level.

That would give him the feats and sneak damage to reach 36 or so damage. In addition it would give him the feats he must crave to become increasingly stabbity and the vicious sneak attack damage that would appeal the little killer.

Finally, there is no way Belkar would pick up a level of barbarian if this wasn’t the case because it would slow down his XP rate.

Maybe they just call him a ranger because that’s was his first class and that’s what he calls himself.

BurntOfferings
2005-05-06, 12:18 PM
Regarding Elan's Int score:

If he got 6 skill points in #2, then his Int must be 8 or 9. That's 6 points for a new bard level, -1 for the low Int, and +1 for being human.

Schattendrache
2005-05-06, 12:45 PM
The new skill points weren't from a level gain, but from an edition change, as was his new chain shirt, Durkon's stability, and Belkar's unfortunate, er, weapon shrinkage....

JD
2005-05-06, 05:07 PM
and Belkar's unfortunate, er, weapon shrinkage....
Yeah, he doesn't have an '18 charisma under the hood'

Also things are so wrong... I'm listening to Friends will be Friends (by Queen) while reading about Belkar. Just wrong.

On a side note; what do you say to Belkar and Roy being acquainted before the rest of them met? Roy seems extremely aware of the little psycho's personality and capabilities. The more I thought of it, the more I believed the idea, what do you say?

BurntOfferings
2005-05-06, 06:03 PM
The new skill points weren't from a level gain, but from an edition change, as was his new chain shirt, Durkon's stability, and Belkar's unfortunate, er, weapon shrinkage....
Ah. Good point. But I find it hard to believe that Elan was only third level in that strip. Perhaps it was just good cheer about bards getting 6 skill points per level instead of 4. Oh well.

But I still think he has an Int of 8 or 9. ;)

AtomicKitKat
2005-05-06, 06:40 PM
Ah. *Good point. *But I find it hard to believe that Elan was only third level in that strip. *Perhaps it was just good cheer about bards getting 6 skill points per level instead of 4. *Oh well.

But I still think he has an Int of 8 or 9. * ;)

He could have been level 6 at the time. Although then you have the problem of "If he had -1 Int modifier, shouldn't he only have gotten 1 skill point per level and thus received 2 skill points per level in the upgrade?" I think the only way to solve this would be that he has 3 Int(-4 modifier), subtracting 4 points from (4+Int mod) with a minimum of 1 skill point per level, then when 3.5 rolls around, he gets 6-4-1=1 more skill point per level. Voila, Elan is Int 3(which we already suspected anyway. Belkar has crap for Wisdom, V has crap for Charisma, so that likely leaves Durkon with crap Dexterity, Roy with crap Constitution, or even stats, and Haley with crap Strength/Constitution{although that makes sense in light of the bag of holding incident, it makes the "feminine products" bag look odd}).

Musrum
2005-05-06, 08:19 PM
EDIT: I looked back at today's strip, and it made me wonder if Roy is even older than I thought. Look at the way he talks about his "whole adult life" and the way he goes on about life being unsatisfying. Sounds almost like a midlife crisis to me.
Actaully it is the mid level crisis that all fighters go through as they see the center of power move to the spellcasters.

Schattendrache
2005-05-07, 01:44 AM
*snort*

Not while I'm drinking!

IonStorm
2005-05-10, 05:05 PM
Lessons learned from #178:

1. Since V can cast spells in lizard form without somatic components, but with verbal ones, s/he must have the silent spell feat.
2. *V does not have the following spells in his/her spell book or is of insufficient level to cast them with the above metamagic feat .
SRD spell name (level)
Blindness/Deafness (2)
Blur (2)
Charm Monster, Mass (8)
Contact Other Plane (5)
Darkness (2)
Dimension Door (4)
Displacement (3)
Flare (0)
Geas (4,6)
Irresistible Dance (8)
Knock (2)
Light (0) !!!!
Mage's Disjunction (9)
Phase Door (7)
Power Word Blind, Kill, Stun (7, 9, 8)
Prismatic Sphere (9)
Shout (4)
Teleport (5)
Teleport Object (7)
Teleport, Greater (7)
Teleportation Circle (9)
Time Stop (9)
Tongues (3)
True Strike (1)
Ventriloquism (1)
Wail of the Banshee (9)
Wish (9)

<Edit: Hit return before I had finished by accident>

Dire_Armadillo
2005-05-10, 09:58 PM
Now that is what I call over-analysis! Well done.

Kish
2005-05-11, 12:04 AM
2. V does not have the following spells in his/her spell book or is of insufficient level to cast them with the above metamagic feat .
SRD spell name (level)
Flare (0)
Light (0) !!!!

Technically, Vaarsuvius can have those in his/her spellbook and still say "there are only three spells I can cast in this form," because they're cantrips rather than true spells. (Hey, this is the thread for over-analysis.)

It's also possible that s/he has them in his/her first spellbook and didn't bring that spellbook along to the Dungeon of Dorukan, choosing to budget space in his/her current traveling spellbook more efficiently (and leave Flare and Light out).

Berkeley
2005-05-11, 01:03 AM
Lessons learned from #178:
...
2. V does not have the following spells in his/her spell book or is of insufficient level to cast them with the above metamagic feat.
...
Time Stop (9)
...
Wish (9)
Behold, comic #49 (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=49). V definitely has Time Stop and Wish in his/her spellbook, at least.

Kish
2005-05-11, 01:08 AM
I wouldn't be so sure. By that point, s/he might have meant, "Theoretically, if I could offer them, would you trade your stupid Fly spell for...?"

However, unless Vaarsuvius is able to cast tenth level spells (Time Stop or Wish modified by the Silent Spell feat), it's academic at the moment.

Berkeley
2005-05-11, 01:16 AM
I wouldn't be so sure. By that point, s/he might have meant, "Theoretically, if I could offer them, would you trade your stupid Fly spell for...?"
This is true. V was no longer looking at his/her spellbook by that point.


However, unless Vaarsuvius is able to cast tenth level spells (Time Stop or Wish modified by the Silent Spell feat), it's academic at the moment.
"As a rule of thumb, I tend to think of them as being around 7th-9th level or so; powerful enough to have a bunch of different storytelling options, weak enough that I can justify them running away from anything I throw at them." (http://www.giantitp.com/FAQ.html#faq6a) Thus, there are no guarantees, but with the level in town, V should now be in the 8-10 range.

AtomicKitKat
2005-05-11, 02:15 AM
Thus, there are no guarantees, but with the level in town, V should now be in the 8-10 range.

It's been confirmed that the party is probably level 10-12 by now. V cast "Cone of Cold" and "accidentally" froze Elan some strips back, and the party has since levelled at least once(twice?)

IonStorm
2005-05-11, 06:54 AM
I will shamelessly quote myself:


168: Haley shoots 3 arrows with Manyshot feat. *Prerequisites: Dex 17, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, base attack bonus +11.

If you assume that in 62 she fired the maximum number of arrows she could at the time (2), then leveled up in 124 and fired the maximum number of arrows in 168 (3), then Haley is now exactly a 15th level rogue.
Furthermore, this evidence is strong because it was a detail included which was not part of a joke, and thus better reflects "reality."

Thus, at #168 Haley was a maximum of 15th level rogue and a minimum of Rogue 2/Fighter 10. This configuration gives her a bab of 11 and evasion (see #19) with the minimum number of levels. It is possible to substitute barbarian for fighter, but this seems even more unlikely. Ranger cannot be used, as she does not have the track feat.

However, since all characters level up essentially simultaneously (#124) they are all at the same level and none have XP penalties for multi-classing (Belkar had not yet taken his level of barbarian). So Haley could have been at the lowest Rogue 7/Fighter 6 (or the reverse). This is possible given the respect Roy gives her in strategizing, but I still think she better represents the pure rogue archetype.

Dire_Armadillo
2005-05-11, 10:49 AM
Maybe, but she could also be at least an 8th level rogue and using the rapid shot feat. Although it certainly looks like three arrows fired at once it could very well, in a single panel, be a representation of three shots fired in rapid succession.

geek_2049
2005-05-11, 06:07 PM
A couple of notes on Roy's Int
Claim 1: Roy has the an Int of at least 17
Assuming Roy has Str 17 (#38?)
Assume your class is directly related to your high stat or in this case Roy has his own best interest in mind.
Assume Roy's parents have Roy's best interest in mind
So, if Roy and Roy's parents both have Roy's best interest in mind w/respect to his high stat, ie Wizard School as opposed to Fighter School, then Roy was equally suited for both fighter and wizard one can infer that his respective stats were equal at the time he went to college.
Hence, based on previous assumtions Roy's Int is equal to his Str which is equal to 17.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * QED
*No ability increases are considered, since his Lvl is unknown both in general and when he went to college*

Claim 2: Roy has the high Int of the party
Anyone who can use a Bag of Tricks in combat effectively is super Int, ie 18+. Roy accomplished such a task. Hence Roy's Int is 18+. * *QED
A similar arguement can be used for the mind flayer picking Roy's brain over V's.

Sped55
2005-05-12, 02:34 PM
Intersting topic. I think each character has 1 18
Roys 18-Strengh(I know thats spelled wrong)
Belkars18-I think he has a 12 in Dex and 12 in strengh
Haleys 18-Dexterity
Elans18-Charisma
Durkons18-Con
Varssviases(or however you would spell that)18-Int

Kevlimin_Soulaxe
2005-05-12, 04:37 PM
I think the reason why the Mindflayer chose Roy over V is that Roy has a very nice blend of Intellgence, Wisdom, and Charisma. He is fairly smart, doesn't make exeptionally poor choices, and has enough Charisma to recruit this band of adventurers and keep them together. Eat that all you one high one low stat cop-outs!

Kish
2005-05-13, 03:43 AM
A couple of notes on Roy's Int
Claim 1: Roy has the an Int of at least 17
Assuming Roy has Str 17 (#38?)
Assume your class is directly related to your high stat or in this case Roy has his own best interest in mind.

Erm.
You mean, "Assume Roy would automatically choose a class which stereotypically relies on his best stat"? That sounds a lot weaker than "Assume Roy has his own best interest in mind," yet it's what you're actually assuming here.


Assume Roy's parents have Roy's best interest in mind

Again, do you mean, "Assume Roy's father would both know Roy's ability scores, and would only want him to become a wizard if Intelligence is at least tied for highest"?
That sounds even weaker, but, again, it's what you're actually assuming.


So, if Roy and Roy's parents

...are both thinking entirely in terms of, "Roy should be the class that stereotypically goes with his highest ability score,"...

then Roy was equally suited for both fighter and wizard one can infer that his respective stats were equal at the time he went to college.
Hence, based on previous assumtions Roy's Int is equal to his Str which is equal to 17.
QED

QE very-much-not-D. We know why Roy chose to be a fighter--their family has a rich heritage as warriors. We know why his father wanted him to be a wizard--said father was himself a wizard. You think Roy would have said, "You're right, I should be a wizard" if his Strength had been lower than his Intelligence? You think that his father would have said, "You're right, you should go learn how to stick people with sharp pieces of metal" if his Intelligence had been lower than his Strength? I sure don't. That's without considering that Roy's father may not have even known his ability scores--and I can't believe his father wouldn't have thrown in a line like "a natural 17 Intelligence wasted training in how to brawl" if he knew Roy had 17 Intelligence.

For that matter, wouldn't Roy have more than one rank of Ride if he had that many skill points? :P



Anyone who can use a Bag of Tricks in combat effectively is super Int, ie 18+. Roy accomplished such a task.

Actually, he never used it effectively in combat. He used it effectively to set up ambushes, to get the others untied, and to give the group a bad name in the eyes of the blue-robed figure, but when he tried to use it in combat, he unimpressed a green thing and got smashed by a rhino.
And your basic premise could use more support, too.

BurntOfferings
2005-05-13, 02:57 PM
Thus, at #168 Haley was a maximum of 15th level rogue and a minimum of Rogue 2/Fighter 10. *This configuration gives her a bab of 11 and evasion (see #19) with the minimum number of levels. *It is possible to substitute barbarian for fighter, but this seems even more unlikely. *Ranger cannot be used, as she does not have the track feat.


Note for clarity: IonStorm's analysis assumes Haley is using Manyshot in #168.

I submit that Haley is not, in fact, using Manyshot in #168. Look below Haley in the panel where she shoots Samantha, and you'll see

fft!
fft!
fft!

which I think signifies three distinct shots. So Haley could be only an 8th level rogue.

BurntOfferings
2005-05-13, 03:05 PM
[Elan] could have been level 6 at the time [comic #2]. Although then you have the problem of "If he had -1 Int modifier, shouldn't he only have gotten 1 skill point per level and thus received 2 skill points per level in the upgrade?" I think the only way to solve this would be that he has 3 Int(-4 modifier), subtracting 4 points from (4+Int mod) with a minimum of 1 skill point per level, then when 3.5 rolls around, he gets 6-4-1=1 more skill point per level. Voila, Elan is Int 3....

If Elan was 6th level and had an Int of only 3 at the time of conversion, he would have gained 18 skill points, not six.

3rd edition: 4 - 4 (Int) + 1 (human) = 1/level
3.5 edition: 6 - 4 (Int) + 1 (human) = 3/level

Factor in quadruple skill points at level 1, and Elan would have to be 4th level with an Int of 1 for his "six new skill points" ditty to refer to actual new skill points.

I still say 8 or 9.

Kevlimin_Soulaxe
2005-05-13, 08:02 PM
You can never gain zero skill points. A fighter with an intelligiance of 3 still gets one. So 3rd edition Elan under that assumption would still get 2 skill points per level.

AtomicKitKat
2005-05-14, 04:48 PM
If Elan was 6th level and had an Int of only 3 at the time of conversion, he would have gained 18 skill points, not six.

3rd edition: 4 - 4 (Int) + 1 (human) = 1/level
3.5 edition: 6 - 4 (Int) + 1 (human) = 3/level

Factor in quadruple skill points at level 1, and Elan would have to be 4th level with an Int of 1 for his "six new skill points" ditty to refer to actual new skill points.

I still say 8 or 9.

Elan at worst has the barest possible intelligence to be an adventurer(3). I still doubt that he was singing about the 6 "in general". His thought patterns are just not that complex.

Kish
2005-05-14, 06:47 PM
Considering he thinks 6+6=10 (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=45), I'd say the answer is that Elan made an error in calculating his skill points. He only thinks he has six new skill points.

The Giant
2005-05-14, 09:41 PM
Re: Elan singing: Elan is singing about his new number of base skill points per level; bards went from 4 to 6 in 3.5. He is not actually gaining any skill points, because skill point gains aren't retroactive, and he is not taking into account his Intelligence penalty because, as noted, he's bad at simple math.
--------------

I submit that Haley is not, in fact, using Manyshot in #168. *Look below Haley in the panel where she shoots Samantha, and you'll see

fft! fft! fft!

which I think signifies three distinct shots. *So Haley could be only an 8th level rogue.
You are correct. The three arrows are fired so that they are staggered; this is a Rapid Shot attack with a BAB between +6 and +10 (Two shots at full BAB-2, one shot at BAB-7). A Manyshot would have shown all three arrows even with each other, and only made one sound effect.
--------------

I think the reason why the Mindflayer chose Roy over V is that Roy has a very nice blend of Intellgence, Wisdom, and Charisma. He is fairly smart, doesn't make exeptionally poor choices, and has enough Charisma to recruit this band of adventurers and keep them together. Eat that all you one high one low stat cop-outs!
Correct. V has a higher Int, but has a moderate Wisdom and a poor Charisma (shouting about your arcane power all day is not the way to make friends). Roy has a very good Int, a very good Wis, and a decent Charisma. Thus, he's the most filling meal.
--------------

1. Since V can cast spells in lizard form without somatic components, but with verbal ones, s/he must have the silent spell feat.
In OOTS land, you just need to be able to speak the name of the spell to count as a verbal component. It doesn't matter what language that name is in. V is speaking Lizardese, but he can still say "Feather Fall". He does not know the Silent Spell feat.


2. *V does not have the following spells in his/her spell book or is of insufficient level to cast them with the above metamagic feat .
Cantrips are cantrips, not spells. V cannot cast spells of 7th level or higher as far as we have seen. And so far, all teleportation spells have been suspiciously absent from the elf's repetoire. The rest, just aren't in his spellbook yet.

Scorpina
2005-05-15, 09:25 AM
He does not know the Silent Spell feat.

Unless you come up with a gag that requires him to have it for some reason...

IonStorm
2005-05-15, 10:07 AM
I stand corrected.

Vik
2005-05-15, 12:33 PM
V is speaking Lizardese, but he can still say "Feather Fall". He does not know the Silent Spell feat.
Cantrips are cantrips, not spells. V cannot cast spells of 7th level or higher as far as we have seen. And so far, all teleportation spells have been suspiciously absent from the elf's repetoire. The rest, just aren't in his spellbook yet.So, are you telling us that you see V' as a male ? :P
Welcome to the Place for over-analysis, Rich ;D

Kevlimin_Soulaxe
2005-05-15, 01:41 PM
Hmmm....Rich got the 200th post in a thread over-examining his work....I am pretty sure this is also his first. I think we can read into this a little more...



w00t! Validated by the Giant! Uh-huh!

AtomicKitKat
2005-05-15, 05:23 PM
Re: Elan singing: Elan is singing about his new number of base skill points per level; bards went from 4 to 6 in 3.5. He is not actually gaining any skill points, because skill point gains aren't retroactive, and he is not taking into account his Intelligence penalty because, as noted, he's bad at simple math.

'Ang on a tick, the increased skill points for bards(and any other classes that gained skill points from 3 to 3.5?) are not counted retroactively when converting/upgrading/updating characters from 3 to 3.5? That's a bit of a gyp...

BurntOfferings
2005-05-16, 12:04 PM
Re: Elan singing: Elan is singing about his new number of base skill points per level; bards went from 4 to 6 in 3.5. He is not actually gaining any skill points, because skill point gains aren't retroactive, and he is not taking into account his Intelligence penalty because, as noted, he's bad at simple math.
--------------
[Re: Haley using Rapid Shot or Manyshot]
You are correct. The three arrows are fired so that they are staggered; this is a Rapid Shot attack with a BAB between +6 and +10 (Two shots at full BAB-2, one shot at BAB-7). A Manyshot would have shown all three arrows even with each other, and only made one sound effect.


Woohoo! Two for two! ;D

I agree with AtomicKitKat. Elan and Belkar got gypped if they didn't get extra skill points on conversion. >:(

Wait a minute.... If rangers and bards don't get extra skill points retroactively, why was Belkar specifically waiting for skill points in #1 ("C'mon, c'mon. Daddy needs some new skill points!"), and why does Elan get a "Ping!" and then say, "Ooh! Skill points!" :-/

Nerd-o-rama
2005-05-16, 11:30 PM
They (and everybody else) don't get retroactive skill points from an INT increase. However, they would logically have their skill point totals updated when converted to 3.5, in the same way that Elan "magically" got a chain shirt in the middle of a dungeon crawl. In other words, they got skill points because the rules changed. Incidentally, if the Order's DM is evil, Belkar probably lost HP or had to reroll them, since he went from a d10 hit die to a d8.

The Giant
2005-05-17, 04:48 AM
So, are you telling us that you see V' as a male ? *:P
Welcome to the Place for over-analysis, Rich ;D

I'm saying that the English language often uses "he" for the pronoun when no gender is specifically known.

Sc00by
2005-05-17, 04:49 AM
I'm saying that the English language often uses "he" for the pronoun when no gender is specifically known.


QFE

Good answer ;)

Vik
2005-05-17, 12:51 PM
"He" or "She", actually.
But then, the SRD standard for Wizards is a "She" :
SRD
Like other spellcasters, a wizard can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Wizard. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Intelligence score.

Unlike a bard or sorcerer, a wizard may know any number of spells. She must choose and prepare her spells ahead of time by getting a good night’s sleep and spending 1 hour studying her spellbook. While studying, the wizard decides which spells to prepare. So, the "He" was not insignificant, right ?

Note : this is a joke, please don't take me seriously - I already put smileys on my first post.

The_Shadow
2005-05-17, 03:32 PM
Belkar seems to be making an unusual number of Spot checks lately... Do you suppose he put ranks into it? Or maybe even bumped up his Wisdom?

AtomicKitKat
2005-05-17, 06:58 PM
They (and everybody else) don't get retroactive skill points from an INT increase. *However, they would logically have their skill point totals updated when converted to 3.5, in the same way that Elan "magically" got a chain shirt in the middle of a dungeon crawl. *In other words, they got skill points because the rules changed. *Incidentally, if the Order's DM is evil, Belkar probably lost HP or had to reroll them, since he went from a d10 hit die to a d8.

Nod. I think Rich mistook our discussion regarding Elan's intellect for an actual debate about whether Int affected retroactive skill pointing(it doesn't.) We were actually trying to calculate Elan's Int based on the number of skill points he gained, and the presumed level at which it was gotten.

As far as 3.0 to 3.5 updates and skill points go, I believe the "3.5 upgrade" attachment in Deities and Demigods specifically mentions "Give bards 40 skill points"

Hamburger
2005-05-18, 12:36 PM
This being the place for it...

I figure this dragon is most likely an Old Black Dragon (CR 16). At Old, its Will save is +16, which means its minimum roll is 17, equal to 10 + 3 (spell level) + 4 (V's Int bonus), so it's right, it can't fail except on an automatic failure.

That could mean we'll see it do something creative with Plant Growth, an Old special ability.

It's also possible that it's a Mature Adult (CR 14, Will +15), and it's underestimating V's intelligence bonus, because he's hanging around with these nitwits.

It's clearly not any younger than that, though, because it shrugs off Haley's arrow, which means it likely has a Mature Adult's DR 10. (She *might* just be rolling mediocrely on damage, and not breaking a younger dragon's DR 5, but I doubt it. I mean, it's not even concerned.)

Gez
2005-05-19, 05:12 AM
It's clearly not any younger than that, though, because it shrugs off Haley's arrow, which means it likely has a Mature Adult's DR 10. (She *might* just be rolling mediocrely on damage, and not breaking a younger dragon's DR 5, but I doubt it. I mean, it's not even concerned.)

Shortbow deals 1d6 damage. The dragon isn't flanked (Tiny creatures like V.'s lizardy form do not threaten the area around them), so no Sneak Attack damage.

So, at best, Haley's bow will deal 1 point of damage to a DR 5 dragon... With the amount of hp the dragon has, he's allowed to not be concerned.

Plus, she does roll mediocrely. Only one arrow touched (and "binked"), the two others missed.

Vik
2005-05-19, 09:37 AM
Note that the *bink* is most certainly the result of an attack deflected by the Dragon's natural armor = high AC hard to hit with a Rogue's BAB. It'd be strange to see Haley without a magic bow, considering that it's her primary weapon.

Hamburger
2005-05-19, 11:38 AM
Well, certainly I'd expect to see Haley with a magic bow, plus she's within 30 feet so she'd get the +1 damage from Point Blank Shot.

But I don't think the 'bink' represents a miss because of natural armor. After all, two arrows missed altogether, and a dragon has a touch AC of 8... surely Haley would hit an 8! The missed arrows must be missing because of the dragon's *total* AC, including natural armor... i.e., AC 32, which is something Haley would hit occasionally but not reliably.

That means the 'bink' arrow really was a hit. And even when the characters lose just a point or two, there's at least a little red spot to show for it. Plus, the arrow didn't stick, which implies it did no damage at all.

So, the DR shrugged it off... and with a +3 bow or so, and +1 for point blank, Haley should beat a DR5, but have a tough time beating an older dragon's DR10. Think those Bracers of Lechery provide a damage bonus? "Heh, heh, shoot me hard, baby."

In any case, if the dragon is any younger than Mature Adult, it's very mistaken about its ability to shrug off Vaarsuvius' spell.

Not that that wouldn't be a good thing, of course... looks like OotS needs every advantage they can get at the moment!

Vik
2005-05-19, 12:52 PM
As Dragons get DR X/Magic, and a magic bow imbues its arrows with the ability to overcome damage reduction, this is not his natural damage reduction [considering the bow is magic, of course]. Now, one can think about a Stone skin spell ; but I don't think that's the case.
And to the point : yes, Haley should hit an AC of 8, but the point of AC is that when you want to hit a great AC (due to armor), you try to hit specific weak parts, and then you can completely miss your fire. At least, that's my interpretation.

Hamburger
2005-05-19, 04:45 PM
...a magic bow imbues its arrows with the ability to overcome damage reduction...

Oops, forgot about that. Good point.

I suppose it's possible she only has a masterwork bow. She does mention masterwork bows here (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=158), but it's not clear if she's implying that she's paid similar costs for her equipment or if she's just referring to background knowledge in general.

yrro
2005-05-19, 07:42 PM
She most certainly does not have a magic bow, as odd as it may sound.

Remember, she couldn't penetrate Sabine's damage reduction, and even though neither she nor we know for sure whether Sabine is an Erinyes or a Succubus, either one would have been affected normally by even a +1 magical bonus.

So she's doing a maximum of 6-7 damage, barely enough for a Young Adult black dragon to notice, let alone a MAture or older one.

Poeir
2005-05-19, 08:49 PM
In 3.5, erinyes have damage reduction 5/good, while succubi (which Sabine probably is, since she has shapechanging abilities) have 10/cold iron or good. We know one of cold iron or silver damaged her, and silver wouldn't affect a succubus, so Sabine is a succubus, for the purposes of this thread. So all we know is that Haley does not have a good-aligned bow.

Andorax
2005-05-20, 03:59 PM
Don't be silly...we knew Sabine was a succubus due to her leathery, bat-like wings (as opposed to an Eyrines' black, feathery wings).


As for the dragon:

Egad...the Order is way, WAY outmatched.

In order to do what the dragon just did it would require the following feats:

Snatch (preq: Size Huge)
Improved Snatch (Draconomicon)
Snatch and Swallow (Draconomicon)

Black Dragons first attain Huge size at the Mature Adult stage at 22 HD.

This dragon could either have then progressed to Very Old...on the brink of Ancient (taking Snatch at 24 HD, Improved Snatch at 27 HD, and Snatch and Swallow at 30 HD). Or else it could be a Mature Adult with 8 class levels (again, taking the feats at the listed HD, the earliest it could).

A Very Old Black Dragon with 2HD advancement is CR 19
A Mature Adult Black Dragon with 6 non-associated class levels is CR 17. Associated levels kicks the CR to 20.

For those who might be so-interested, an almost-ancient Black has a Will save of +20 and SR of 23, and the Mature Adult has, at a minimum, +15 (and anywhere from +17 to +21, depending on which classes were taken) and an SR of 21.

Either way, these guys are way outmatched, and disgustingly lucky.

leukothea
2005-05-23, 08:18 PM
In strip # 174, (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=174) what is the thingie that the Mysterious Cloaked Avenger is holding when he's interviewing Gortok (panel 6)?

It almost looks like an ice cream cone because it appears to be dripping a drop of green liquid. But it doesn't look like an ice cream cone, really. (Mmmm, ice cream.)

What is green and drips and is the appropriate thing to hold while talking to Gortok? I just can't think of the punch line...

IonStorm
2005-05-23, 08:33 PM
What is green and drips and is the appropriate thing to hold while talking to Gortok? I just can't think of the punch line...

Informative pamphlets. See #132 (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=132) for an explanation.

leukothea
2005-05-24, 01:06 PM
Informative pamphlets. See #132 (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=132) for an explanation.



Wow, continuity!

Thanks, IonStorm!

manscatha
2005-05-24, 07:09 PM
I am sure this has been brought up before, but I could not find it. In #174 (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=174), the blue-cloaked figure seems to be assuming that the Order of the Stick is responsible for some of the atrocities committed by the Linear League. In a way, this is more evidence that the figure and its master are good. (And, I predict, will end up helping the Sticks defeat their other enemies. After several other misunderstandings, of course.)

jgf
2005-05-26, 04:55 AM
This probably was mentioned before, but back in #65 (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=65), V casts Magic Missile with 5 missiles, placing him at at least 9th Level (assuming no metamagic) way back then.

Mictlan
2005-05-26, 03:48 PM
I don't remember correctly the 3.5 edition od Suggestion, but is more subtle IMHO that the complete and uterly control of another intelligent creature.

If V is compelling the dragon to keep all the OotS in the cave until dawn, wouldn't the dragon attack them again when the spell expires?

Kish
2005-05-26, 04:03 PM
It will last a number of hours equal to Vaarsuvius' level. Dawn will probably come before that.

Hopefully.

And Durkon won't be clumsy enough to cast the Dispel Magic spell so that the dragon is within the area of effect.

Hopefully.

DoveArrow
2005-05-26, 07:43 PM
Also, consider the wording of the actual spell:

"You influence the actions of the target creature by suggesting a course of activity (limited to a sentence or two)... the spell ends when the subject finishes what it was asked to do." *

Interpreting that to mean 'do whatever I ask until I tell you to stop' is a gross misinterpretation of the spell's intent, because it involves multiple activities within a given timeframe and involves more than a sentence or two. *

This was from a post I made under the comics section and was in response to the fact that she ordered the dragon to vomit and watch the characters.

Wanderer
2005-05-26, 08:34 PM
Also, consider the wording of the actual spell:

"You influence the actions of the target creature by suggesting a course of activity (limited to a sentence or two)... the spell ends when the subject finishes what it was asked to do." *

Interpreting that to mean 'do whatever I ask until I tell you to stop' is a gross misinterpretation of the spell's intent, because it involves multiple activities within a given timeframe and involves more than a sentence or two. *
For one thing, you keep saying it incorrectly. It's not "Do whatever I ask until I tell you to stop." It's "DON'T do anything EXCEPT what I ask," with no time frame set whatsoever. It's not making the dragon do whatever V says, it's just making it not want to do anything ELSE. By those instructions, it doesn't HAVE to do what V asks either. It doesn't have to do ANYTHING. The things V asks are simply the only things it feels inclined to do.

Second, "a course of activity" is not limited to a single action. A course of activity could be a large group of actions, it could be a plan someone came up with ahead of time and are now going to follow, whatever. It is a WAY OF ACTING, not a specific action. Doing nothing except when a specific person tells you otherwise IS a course of activity.

Kish
2005-05-27, 01:15 AM
I'd never let the D&D spell work like that either, simply because I'm pretty sure if the spell was meant to work like Dominate it would say that. That said, I don't see anything wrong with it working that way in OotS.

In practice the spell is letting Vaarsuvius command the dragon, even though that's not what Vaarsuvius suggested; the dragon has yet to not do anything Vaarsuvius ordered, Vaarsuvius clearly expects the dragon's immediate obedience, and I really doubt "throw up the rogue you just swallowed" was something the dragon would have wanted to do--especially considering s/he was so mad about Haley cheating him/her of a much smaller meal.

Wanderer
2005-05-27, 01:24 AM
V phrased his commands in ways the dragon might like. "Vomit now... aim at the halfling." Do something disgusting and unpleasant to the annoying stabby creature. Throwing up Haley isn't what the dragon wants to do, but throwing up on Belkar isn't too farfetched as something it might be willing to do.

The next one: Eat anyone who tries to leave before dawn. The dragon is even less likely to object to that one.

V is simply phrasing these suggestions in ways to make them sound appealing to the dragon, even when they normally wouldn't be.

manscatha
2005-05-27, 04:25 AM
V cast Disintegrate, a sixth level spell, meaning that V is now at least level eleven, right?

I don't know much about dragons, but I am now wondering: how many HPs would that dragon have had? And what sort of a fort save? Is V's action even possible?

Also, is singing the bus song a reasonable effect of this spell?

Sundog
2005-05-27, 05:42 AM
In game terms, what happened is that V got off the first Disintegrate during the last round of the Suggestion, then won initiative. The Dragon couldn't do anything in between, so the Giant put in the song to show it's befuddlement while V got off the second Disintegrate.

The DC for the Disintegrate could be very high. If V is 12th level, and is a Grey Elf, she could have an intelligence of 23 for +6, it's a 6th level spell for another +6, her headband could be of Intellect for another +3, and I don't know if the Ring of Wizardry adds anything as well. So, that's DC 25 before anything really hoopy. Given it's a Dragon, it could have succeeded, I suspect, but could easily have failed too.

Poeir
2005-05-27, 06:50 AM
The headband of intellect can't be +3, since all such modifiers are even. Also, it's been indicated on the forums that the headband is probably just a fashion choice, and isn't any more magical than Roy's tunic or Belkar's feet.

ObadiahtheSlim
2005-05-27, 08:14 AM
Remember that the dragon had taken damage so he might have made a fortitude save and still took enough to die. Although dragons do have a ton of HP so he probably failed one.

The_King_of_Durf
2005-05-27, 08:52 AM
No, you don't turn into dust from disintegrate unless you fail your save, otherwise you just get knocked dead

Mictlan
2005-05-27, 09:05 AM
V couldn't be 11th level, as she had just cast it twice. Unless Giant is just using a commonly used twist available to DM.......bending the rules a little bit just for the sake of the story.....

Another possibility is that V have known that particular spell for quite sometime (or at least study it's effects first hand), because of the last comment told to Roy :D

Cubey
2005-05-27, 09:19 AM
No, you don't turn into dust from disintegrate unless you fail your save, otherwise you just get knocked dead

Actually, the reference webpage states otherwise:



A thin, green ray springs from your pointing finger. You must make a successful ranged touch attack to hit. Any creature struck by the ray takes 2d6 points of damage per caster level (to a maximum of 40d6). Any creature reduced to 0 or fewer hit points by this spell is entirely disintegrated, leaving behind only a trace of fine dust. A disintegrated creature’s equipment is unaffected.

When used against an object, the ray simply disintegrates as much as one 10- foot cube of nonliving matter. Thus, the spell disintegrates only part of any very large object or structure targeted. The ray affects even objects constructed entirely of force, such as forceful hand or a wall of force, but not magical effects such as a globe of invulnerability or an antimagic field.

A creature or object that makes a successful Fortitude save is partially affected, taking only 5d6 points of damage. If this damage reduces the creature or object to 0 or fewer hit points, it is entirely disintegrated.

The_King_of_Durf
2005-05-27, 09:49 AM
In 3.5 it is, I hate how they nerfed disintegrate

Wanderer
2005-05-27, 09:57 AM
In 3.5 it is, I hate how they nerfed disintegrate
AMEN!

manscatha
2005-05-27, 11:18 AM
Thanks guys. I'm just hoping that someone who Knows About Dragons will tell me that one had hps comparable to, er, 22d6 * 2. (which has an expected value of 154, right?) Or can we assume that the dragon was slightly wounded already?

V's intelligence couldn't be higher than 19, because of what V said to the mindflayer. But as for her level, I think it's possible that the ring of wizardry increased her spellpower for story purposes.

DoveArrow
2005-05-27, 12:16 PM
For one thing, you keep saying it incorrectly. It's not "Do whatever I ask until I tell you to stop." It's "DON'T do anything EXCEPT what I ask," with no time frame set whatsoever. It's not making the dragon do whatever V says, it's just making it not want to do anything ELSE.

It doesn't matter how V phrased it. *It's a misinterpretation of the spell's intent. *If the spell was meant to be interpreted the way you're suggesting, it wouldn't say that it's limited to a course of activity. It would read, "you can control the actions of a single creature for a limited period, provided that you both share a common language. The creature will not perform any obviously self destructive actions, and gets additional saves if asked to perform actions that would otherwise be against its nature." The spell would also probably be called lesser dominate monster.

bob_the_great
2005-05-27, 04:48 PM
all sugestion spells have to wear off eventually especially those cast by a lizard

Sundog
2005-05-27, 07:16 PM
The headband of intellect can't be +3, since all such modifiers are even. Also, it's been indicated on the forums that the headband is probably just a fashion choice, and isn't any more magical than Roy's tunic or Belkar's feet.


A +3 bonus would result from the Headband having a bonus to Int of +6. I was counting the amount of bonus to the DC, not base effect.

bob_the_great
2005-05-27, 07:38 PM
and isn't any more magical than Roy's tunic or Belkar's feet.
belkars feet magic haha
+4 foot hair
hehe

AtomicKitKat
2005-05-28, 07:51 AM
Considering Disintegrate is a 6th Circle spell, it does make sense to at least nerf it a little. See my posts in the "Beholder" thread in the Gaming forum for more details. Finger of Death, Slay Living, Disintegrate, etc.

The_King_of_Durf
2005-05-28, 10:30 AM
It was overpowered but still, they didn't have to destroy the spell, they could've done something like raise the caster level, they nerfed so many cool spells

AtomicKitKat
2005-05-28, 10:37 AM
It was overpowered but still, they didn't have to destroy the spell, they could've done something like raise the caster level, they nerfed so many cool spells

I don't see how they "destroyed" the spell. It's still a 6th Circle "Save or die", except now you have 2 chances to die(saving against death by massive damage is a possibility, I think). Not only does it kill you, but if it kills you(whether by failure of save or through damage), it's unlikely you will be resurrected by anything short of a 9th circle(True Reincarnation/Resurrection, Miracle, Wish). Fine dust is notoriously difficult to gather into a "small portion of the person"