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clash
2018-12-11, 11:53 AM
So this is a work in progress but I wanted to get some first impressions on it before continuing:
Ranger:
1: Animal Companion, Natural Explorer
2: Fighting Style, Spellcasting, Hunters Mark
3: Ranger Conclave Feature
4: ASI
5: Ranger Conclave Feature


1 Animal Companion:
Starting at level 1 you gain an animal companion. Choose a medium or smaller animal of a cr no greater than 1/4. You can communicate with you companion via sounds and hand signals. It can always find you no matter how far apart you become so long as you are not hidden from it and are on the same plane of existence.

In combat the animal acts on your initiative count in combat and will defend itself and otherwise follows your orders as instructed. You can give it orders as a bonus action and it will follow your most recent order for as long as it is able. Its hit point maximum equals its normal maximum or four times your ranger level, whichever is higher.

If your companion dies you can gain a new one by spending a long rest in an area of wilderness. Your new animal companion must be one which is native to the area.

1 Natural Explorer:
At 1st level you gain proficiency in Nature and Survival, if you already have proficiency in either you instead add twice your proficiency bonus when making a check with the corresponding skill.

2 Fighting Style:
As usual

2 Spellcasting:
As usual

2 Hunters Mark:
Starting at 2nd level, when you hit a creature with a weapon attack, you can expend one spell slot to mystically mark it as your quarry. While the creature is marked you deal an extra 1d6 damage to the target whenever you hit it with a weapon attack, and you have advantage on any Wisdom (Perception) or Wisdom (Survival) check you make to find it. The mark lasts for 1 hour or until the creature dies.

3 Ranger Conclave:
Starting at third level you join a ranger conclave from Conclave of the Hunter, Conclave of the Beast and Conclave of the Arcane. Each gives you abilities at level 3 and additonal abilities as you level up.

4 ASI:
Same as usual


Conclave of the Hunter:
3 Expanded Spell List:
The following spells are automatically added to your list of spells known as you level up. These are considered ranger spells for you but do not count against your total number of spells known.
* 3: Bane
* 5: Hold Person
* 9: Speak with Dead
* 13: Freedom of Movement
* 17: Swift Quiver

3 Favored Enemy:
At 3rd level you gain an additional language known of your choice and one of the following features of your choice:
* Colossus Slayer: Your tenacity can wear down the most potent foes. When you hit a creature with a weapon attack, the creature takes an extra 1d8 damage if itís below its hit point maximum. You can deal this extra damage only once per turn.
* Giant Killer: When a Large or larger creature within 5 feet of you hits or misses you with an attack, you can use your reaction to attack that creature immediately after its attack, provided that you can see the creature.
* Horde Breaker: Once on each of your turns when you make a weapon attack, you can make another attack with the same weapon against a different creature that is within 5 feet of the original target and within range of your weapon.

5 Multiattack
At 5th level, you gain one of the following features of your choice.
* Volley: You can use your action to make a ranged attack against any number of creatures within 5 feet of a point you can see within your weaponís range. You must have ammunition for each target, as normal, and you make a separate attack roll for each target.
* Whirlwind Attack: You can use your action to make a melee attack against any number of creatures within range, with a separate attack roll for each target.
* Extra Attack: You can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.


Conclave of the Beast:
3 Expanded Spell List:
The following spells are automatically added to your list of spells known as you level up. These are considered ranger spells for you but do not count against your total number of spells known.
* 3: Animal Friendship
* 5: Spider Climb
* 9: Conjure Animals
* 13: Giant Insect
* 17: Awaken

3 Beast Master's Bond:
Starting at level 3 you learn how to instantly bond with creatures that are friendly to you. Animals under control add your proficiency bonus to attack rolls, their ac, and all saving throws they make.

5 Coordinated Attack:
Beginning at 5th level, you and your animal companion form a more potent fighting team. When you use the Attack action on your turn, if your companion can see you, it can use its reaction to make a melee attack against the same creature if it is in range.


Conclave of the Arcane:
3 Expanded Spell List:
The following spells are automatically added to your list of spells known as you level up. These are considered ranger spells for you but do not count against your total number of spells known.
* 3: Charm Person
* 5: Flaming Sphere
* 9: Elemental Weapon
* 13: Dimension Door
* 17: Cone of Cold

3 Arcane Archer:
Starting at 3rd level you learn to embrace the arcane and combine it with your fighting. You gain proficiency in the Arcane skill and learn the Prestidigitation cantrip. As well as a bonus action you can conjure an arrow of pure energy. The next time you hit a creature with an attack with a ranged weapon before the end of your turn they take an additional d8 of damage and all the damage dealt is force damage.

5 Arcane Shot:
At 5th level you gain one of the following features of your choice:
* Bursting Arrow: You imbue your arrows with force energy drawn from the school of evocation. As an action you can target a point within range with a bursting arrow. All other creatures within 10 feet of the point must suceed on a dexterity saving throw or take 2d6 force damage.
* Piercing Arrow: You use transmutation magic to give your arrow an ethereal quality. As an action you shoot an arrow forward in a line, which is 1 foot wide and 30 feet long, before it dissapears. The arrow passes harmlessly through objects, ignoring cover. You must make a ranged attack against each creatures in the line and you make a separate attack roll for each target.
* Seeking Arrow: Using divination magic, you grant your arrow the ability to seek out a target. You can choose to make a ranged weapon attack against one creature you have seen in the past minute. The arrow flies toward that creature, moving around corners if necessary and ignoring three-quarters cover and half cover if the target is within the weaponís range and there is a path large enough for the arrow to travel to the target. If the target is no longer in range or their is no clear path to the target the arrow stops harmlesslessy when it reaches the end of it's range or encounters a barrier blocking it's path. If the attack hits it deals an additional 2d6 force damage and you know the targets location.

cesius
2018-12-15, 05:30 PM
It can always find you no matter how far apart you become so long as you are not hidden from it.
May want to limit this to the same plane.



You can give it orders as a bonus action

About on par with bonus action for Martial Arts for monk or two weapon fighting, okay if one only considers the Attack action. However, spell casting throws a spanner into that as does the versatility of another body on the field (Help action or setting up flanking with Dash for example). I'd make it an action to give orders, but you can use your bonus action to have the companion make one melee weapon attack when you use the Attack action.



1 Natural Explorer:
At 1st level you gain proficiency in Nature and Survival, if you already have proficiency in either you instead add twice your proficiency bonus when making a check with the corresponding skill.

The doubling is too much for a first level ability is using similar class features as benchmarks.



2 Hunters Mark:

It seems like the base class is to do a bit of everything and then the subclasses specialize? I'm not sure Hunter's Mark is needed as class feature versus being a normal spell that the Conclave of the Hunter gets in its Expanded Spell List. Was the idea to not be a spell so other classes with spell-grab features can't have it?



3: Longstrider

Not Bane?



9: Speak with Dead

This is were I think a class feature that's not a spell would be a better fit for what I expect is supposed to be an Aragorn-style reading of a dead body rather than a necromantic conversation with a dead soul.



Colossus Slayer: Your tenacity can wear down the most potent foes. When you hit a creature with a weapon Attack, the creature takes an extra 1d8 damage if itís below its hit point maximum. You can deal this extra damage only once per turn.
The text doesn't really match the mechanic (A goblin could stub its toe and the Ranger would get the bonus) so if you're revising ranger you may as well not take this part from the PHB. Something along the lines of, "You gain +2 damage against creatures you've attacked since the beginning of your previous turn," possibly have the damage increase with continuous turns of attacking the same creature.



Giant Killer: When a Large or larger creature within 5 feet of you hits or misses you with an Attack, you can use your reaction to Attack that creature immediately after its Attack, provided that you can see the creature.

Careful, changing attack to Attack makes it seem like the reference is to the Attack action.



5 Multiattack
At 5th level, you gain one of the following features of your choice.
* Volley: You can use your action to make a ranged attack against any number of creatures within 5 feet of a point you can see within your weaponís range. You must have ammunition for each target, as normal, and you make a separate attack roll for each target.
* Whirlwind Attack: You can use your action to make a melee attack against any number of creatures within range, with a separate attack roll for each target.
* Extra Attack: You can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.

This strikes me as being different for different's sake, unless you plan on replacing Extra Attack with the same or similar options in Fighter and Paladin. Otherwise, there's a reason Ranger's get this at 11th level - it replaces the third attack. Fighters and Paladins have other options by that point which differentiate them in terms of damage: versatility for fighter (attack can be on same creature or different creature) and single-target for Paladin (only two attacks but extra d8 radiant damage on each). Rangers are the default horde killers. I think you'd have better success having Extra Attack at level 5 for all Rangers and a level 11 upgrade to Favored Enemy.



3 Beast Master's Bond:
Starting at level 3 you learn how to instantly bond with creatures that are firendly to you. Animals under control gain the following additional beenfits:
* The creature adds your proficiency bonus to attack rolls, its ac, and all saving throws it makes.
* The creature gains 2 extra hit points per Hit Die it has.
* The damage from its natural weapons is considered magical for the purpose of overcoming immunity and resistance to nonmagical attacks and damage.
* If the creature is also your animal companion it gains an ASI for each ASI you gain.

The last two are too much. Monk's don't get Ki Empowered Strikes until level 6 and here's a PC's class feature getting it three levels earlier. The ASI's are an over complication (especially if someone decides that this means they can take feats or stacks Intelligence - no need for Awaken at the end, eh?) to a problem the proficiency bonus already covers: to hit, damage, and AC scaling with level rather than inherent, static stats. The extra HP won't do much for long because there's nothing that increases the number of HD the companion has. As written, a boar (tankiest 1/4 CR I could find) with 2d8 and Con 12 has an initial HP max of 18 which is overtaken by the RLvlx4 at 5th level (20 HP). The extra HP change that to 22 and 6th level (24 HP). Just change it to Ranger level times 4+companions constitution modifier or something like that. The only real appeal of more HD is healing and a line that lets the Ranger use their own HD to heal the companion makes for some interesting RP choices.



5 Coordinated Attack:
Beginning at 5th level, you and your animal companion form a more potent fighting team. When you use the Attack action on your turn, if your companion can see you, it can use its reaction to make a melee attack against the same creature if it is in range.

Instead of getting Extra Attack, you get Animal Attack, but it's a reaction? Too complicated. Let's assume that the intent is the Beast Master is supposed to code as less martial and the companion makes up for that. I think then what would work better is this unlocks the actual attack options. "You can use an action to command your animal companion to take one of the Actions from its stat block or to have it make a melee weapon attack. If you choose the second option then you can also make a weapon attack with Advantage against the same target."



Conclave of the Arcane:
*SNIP*
* 3: Charm Person
* 5: Flaming Sphere
* 9: Elemental Weapon
* 13: Dimension Door
* 17: Cone of Cold

I don't understand why Charm Person, Flaming Sphere, and Cone of Cold were chosen. They don't mesh well with the rest of the subclass. Elemental Weapon is also contradictory to Arcane Archer, but one doesn't have to cast it so I suppose that's a non-issue.



3 Arcane Archer:
Starting at 3rd level you learn to embrace the arcane and combine it with your fighting. You gain proficiency in the Arcane skill and learn the Prestidigitation cantrip. As well as a bonus action you can conjure an arrow of pure energy. The next time you hit a creature with an attack with a ranged weapon before the end of your turn they take an addtional d8 of damage and all the damage dealt is force damage.

This archetype is fairly well trod so I think I see what you're getting at. Here's what I think:


Extended Spell List - At 3rd level you can choose one evocation spell of a level for which you have spell slots of your choice from the wizard spell list. You can choose an additional spell in the same way at levels 5, 9, 13, and 17. Whenever you gain a level in this class, you can replace one of the wizard spells you know with another spell of your choice from the wizard spell list. The new spell must be of a level for which you have spell slots, and it must be an evocation spell.

Cantrips - You gain three cantrips from the following list:

Chill Touch
Fire Bolt
Ray of Frost
Shocking Grasp
Prestidigitation
True Strike


Arcane Archer - You can use weapons with the ranged property as a spell casting focus. When you make a ranged weapon attack you can use a bonus action to have it deal additional damage equal to that from a cantrip you know that would normally require a spell attack roll. When you cast an evocation spell you know from your Extended Spell List with a weapon with the ranged property as a spell casting focus you can use a spot within half of the normal range of the weapon used as the focus as the origin point for the spell. Spells with direction, like a cone, line, or touch, must be oriented directly away from you.

This gives the magic arrow feel/effect with a bit more versatility and the ability to use spells like Fire Sphere or Cone of Cold in a way that can yield a feel like its an arrow delivering the spell rather than the Ranger just happens to cast a wizard spell. If you really wanted to push this then you could add in that spells cast in this manner have a DC based on Dex rather than Wis.



5 Arcane Shot:
At 5th level you gain one of the following features of your choice:
* Bursting Arrow: You imbue your arrows with force energy drawn from the school of evocation. As an action you can target a point within range with a bursting arrow. All other creatures within 10 feet of the point must suceed on a dexterity saving throw or take 2d6 force damage.
* Piercing Arrow: You use transmutation magic to give your arrow an ethereal quality. As an action you shoot an arrow forward in a line, which is 1 foot wide and 30 feet long, before it dissapears. The arrow passes harmlessly through objects, ignoring cover. You must make a ranged attack against each creatures in the line and you make a separate attack roll for each target.
* Seeking Arrow: Using divination magic, you grant your arrow the ability to seek out a target. You can choose to make a ranged weapon attack against one creature you have seen in the past minute. The arrow flies toward that creature, moving around corners if necessary and ignoring three-quarters cover and half cover if the target is within the weaponís range and there is a path large enough for the arrow to travel to the target. If the target is no longer in range or their is no clear path to the target the arrow stops harmlesslessy when it reaches the end of it's range or encounters a barrier blocking it's path. If the attack hits it deals an addtional 2d6 force damage and you know the targets location.

Lose Extra Attack to instead gain an ability that can hit up to 6 creature for a line or up to twenty-one creatures for the burst (depending on measure style)? If these had some sort of charges per short rest thing then sure. As something one could just do they are way too much. If a unique replacement for Extra Attack is your aim then use that as a guideline: one extra damage roll's worth of damage and/or one extra hit roll's worth of accuracy.

If you like the Arcane Archer suggestions I made then that already factors some of that in; cantrips scale damage in a way that makes them extra attack equivalent (the extra dice at 5th, 11th, and 17th) and so I'd recommend a charge system here. This would be prepping a few special arrows during short rests. It also acts a usage limiter which would let one expand the ability's versatility; instead of picking one arrow type the Arcane Archer chooses the effect when using the ability.




'Awesome Magic Arrows' - When you cast a spell or make a ranged weapon attack you can choose one of the following options. You can use this Wisdom modifier times (minimum of 1). You regain all uses when you finish a short or long rest.

Burst Arrow: A spell cast with Arcane Archer that targets only one creature and doesn't have a range of self, you can target a second creature within 5 feet of the first creature with the same spell. A ranged weapon attack made with Arcane Archer deals damage to one creature adjacent to the target unless they make a Dexterity saving throw in which case they take half damage.

Piercing Arrow: Spells and attacks made with Arcane Archer ignore resistance.

Seeking Arrow: Creatures have Disadvantage on saves against spells cast with Arcane Archer and you have Advantage on ranged weapon attacks made with Arcane Archer.

clash
2018-12-17, 11:21 AM
Thanks for all the detailed feedback. Great responses.


May want to limit this to the same plane.


Yep good call, will update.



About on par with bonus action for Martial Arts for monk or two weapon fighting, okay if one only considers the Attack action. However, spell casting throws a spanner into that as does the versatility of another body on the field (Help action or setting up flanking with Dash for example). I'd make it an action to give orders, but you can use your bonus action to have the companion make one melee weapon attack when you use the Attack action.


I dont believe there is any animal under cr 1/4(or otherwise) thats gets spellcasting and flanking is an optional rule unless you are thinking the help action? One of the things people most disliked about the original was that it took your action to command your animal companion.



The doubling is too much for a first level ability is using similar class features as benchmarks.


This is on par with Rogue's expertise which they get at first level but much more restrictive in that you cant pick the skills so the power curve is fine I think.



It seems like the base class is to do a bit of everything and then the subclasses specialize? I'm not sure Hunter's Mark is needed as class feature versus being a normal spell that the Conclave of the Hunter gets in its Expanded Spell List. Was the idea to not be a spell so other classes with spell-grab features can't have it?


I could definitely see moving this feature to the conclave of the hunter subclass but I didnt like it as a spell. The original is basically a class feature disguised as a spell in my opinion. It is basically a spell tax on a class with limited known spells that also consumes your bonus action (so no twf for the class it is most iconic for) and your concentration (no other fun spells cause guess what they also use concentration). I made it weaker in that it can't switch targets (so in most cases will only ever last one combat) but removed the bonus action and concentration requirements.



Not Bane?


That's a good one. Will switch it.



This is were I think a class feature that's not a spell would be a better fit for what I expect is supposed to be an Aragorn-style reading of a dead body rather than a necromantic conversation with a dead soul.


I mean ya I could, but I just wanted to keep it simple. I will see as I start writing more levels.



The text doesn't really match the mechanic (A goblin could stub its toe and the Ranger would get the bonus) so if you're revising ranger you may as well not take this part from the PHB. Something along the lines of, "You gain +2 damage against creatures you've attacked since the beginning of your previous turn," possibly have the damage increase with continuous turns of attacking the same creature.


These were copied directly from the original ranger for now, but I have definitely considered updating them, so I will take another pass at it.



Careful, changing attack to Attack makes it seem like the reference is to the Attack action.


This was copy and pasted from the original text of the feature. Will update it for clarity though.



This strikes me as being different for different's sake, unless you plan on replacing Extra Attack with the same or similar options in Fighter and Paladin. Otherwise, there's a reason Ranger's get this at 11th level - it replaces the third attack. Fighters and Paladins have other options by that point which differentiate them in terms of damage: versatility for fighter (attack can be on same creature or different creature) and single-target for Paladin (only two attacks but extra d8 radiant damage on each). Rangers are the default horde killers. I think you'd have better success having Extra Attack at level 5 for all Rangers and a level 11 upgrade to Favored Enemy.


I was expecting a lot of pushback on this so I am glad to see it. I will start by saying I am expecting most of time time you will never be in a position to target more than 2-3 creatures with these abilities. This is actually the meat and bones of this revision. I basically wanted the Ranger's unique identity to be focused on 2 things. The animal companion and killing hordes. The problem with the ranger's level 11 abilities currently is they have almost no synergy with their other class features. The fighters third attack stacks directly with extra attack as does the Paladin's improved divine smite. The ranger makes you wait 11 levels to get abilities that dont improve your power curve and rather just give you a different way to deal damage then what you have been doing for 10 levels already. With this I want to give them the horde killing options instead of extra attack and then have the level 11 abilities stack with that. I recognized that they were level 11 features before and made some changes to compensate. I made volley a much smaller area (5ft radous is 1/4 the size of 10 ft radius) and whirlwind attack was never worth it before so I left it the same in this revision to actually make them comparable. You said it yourself "Rangers are the default horde killers" So lets give them abilities that kill hordes.



The last two are too much. Monk's don't get Ki Empowered Strikes until level 6 and here's a PC's class feature getting it three levels earlier. The ASI's are an over complication (especially if someone decides that this means they can take feats or stacks Intelligence - no need for Awaken at the end, eh?) to a problem the proficiency bonus already covers: to hit, damage, and AC scaling with level rather than inherent, static stats. The extra HP won't do much for long because there's nothing that increases the number of HD the companion has. As written, a boar (tankiest 1/4 CR I could find) with 2d8 and Con 12 has an initial HP max of 18 which is overtaken by the RLvlx4 at 5th level (20 HP). The extra HP change that to 22 and 6th level (24 HP). Just change it to Ranger level times 4+companions constitution modifier or something like that. The only real appeal of more HD is healing and a line that lets the Ranger use their own HD to heal the companion makes for some interesting RP choices.


One important thing to note is that these features also effect animals you control from Conjure animals at level 9 not just your default animal companion. Which might be op, but I wanted to test the waters. That being said I will move the magical attacks to later in the subclass. As for the hp increase this was mostly for the conjured anaimals but it definitely gets too fiddly and the prioficiency takes care of it. I will remove this and the ASI, I wasn't sold on those anyways.



Instead of getting Extra Attack, you get Animal Attack, but it's a reaction? Too complicated. Let's assume that the intent is the Beast Master is supposed to code as less martial and the companion makes up for that. I think then what would work better is this unlocks the actual attack options. "You can use an action to command your animal companion to take one of the Actions from its stat block or to have it make a melee weapon attack. If you choose the second option then you can also make a weapon attack with Advantage against the same target."


This was another stolen from the ua revised ranger and I have seen it in play and really like it. I personally think it is fairly straightforward.



I don't understand why Charm Person, Flaming Sphere, and Cone of Cold were chosen. They don't mesh well with the rest of the subclass. Elemental Weapon is also contradictory to Arcane Archer, but one doesn't have to cast it so I suppose that's a non-issue.


I picked ones that seemed to fit the theme and tried not to make them compete with existing combat options. Charm person was for a bit of extra utility, Flaming sphere was because I wanted a blasty spell without taking up your main action(main action cast but only bonus action to move), and Cone of cold just for a big blasty arcane type spell. I can swap them out for others if you have suggestions? I didnt like opening them up to pick any wizard spell and limiting it to evocation seems almost pointless without your other suggested change.



This gives the magic arrow feel/effect with a bit more versatility and the ability to use spells like Fire Sphere or Cone of Cold in a way that can yield a feel like its an arrow delivering the spell rather than the Ranger just happens to cast a wizard spell. If you really wanted to push this then you could add in that spells cast in this manner have a DC based on Dex rather than Wis.


I like this, I really do. I have made several attempts to do something along these lines but it is far too finicky, hard to balance and just generally not the way that 5e does things. Instead I opted to copy the far similiar feature from the horizon walker subclass and leave the more arcane-y abilities for the 5th level.



Lose Extra Attack to instead gain an ability that can hit up to 6 creature for a line or up to twenty-one creatures for the burst (depending on measure style)? If these had some sort of charges per short rest thing then sure. As something one could just do they are way too much. If a unique replacement for Extra Attack is your aim then use that as a guideline: one extra damage roll's worth of damage and/or one extra hit roll's worth of accuracy.

I didint want to limit these in usage as it is what I want the core of the ranger to be about: At will aoe damage. These were meant to be balanced against the aoe features presented in the hunter conclave. also one extra attacks worth of damage/accuracy isnt equivalent to extra attacks versatility. Limiting it to a specific shape/range/etc is a huge limiting factor as it will mean there are times you can hit more than 2 enemies, but there are also times you can only hit one guy once.

The burst arrow does less damage then a weapon attack but in a wider area then volley(still only 8-10 creatures as a max as it is within 10 ft of a point not a square. Supposed to work the same as spell radius so maybe better working and again how often do creatures clump together perfectly for you). I agree though, I can tone down the area as the damage is a better type.
Piercing Arrow I had balanced against the drawback of limiting your range to 30ft and six squares in a line seems balanced against creatures around a point. Again I expect you will never or very rarely have the opportunity to attack 6 adjacent creatures in a line.
Any comments with regards to seeking arrow? I really wasnt sure what people would think of that one.